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Lost my third 13th position battery - Force

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  • chilejose@aol.com
    97 Force Hi, I have a strange problem that has occurred 3 times already. The overall pack of 13 Deka 8G27 s is about 5 - 7 years old and the car has 27M
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 20, 2011
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      97 Force

      Hi, I have a strange problem that has occurred 3 times already. The
      overall pack of 13 Deka 8G27's is about 5 - 7 years old and the car has 27M
      miles. I monitor the pack with Pak-trakr and can see when things as they are
      going bad. Every 6 months for the last 18 months I have lost the 13th
      battery, front passenger. I drive the car 4 days a week 25 miles on the freeway
      then occasionally on the weekends and always below 30AH drain.

      Wondered if anyone else has seen this phenomena? I always move one battery
      from the back 8 to the front position and put in the new battery in the
      middle of the string. Then I always limit my driving to 10 miles until the
      new battery begins to act like the older ones.

      Joe


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ken Olum
      I don t know why it should always be the one position that is failing first, but with 27,000 miles they don t really owe you anything, and it s probably time
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 21, 2011
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        I don't know why it should always be the one position that is failing
        first, but with 27,000 miles they don't really owe you anything, and
        it's probably time to replace the pack. Personally I think it makes
        more sense when replacing a single battery to put the new battery in
        the same position as the one that failed. Then if there is some cause
        (e.g., temperature extremes) you have the battery in the best
        condition in the place that gets the most wear. But I wouldn't
        replace a single battery in a pack with much over 20,000 miles.

        Ken
      • Tom Hudson
        Joe, when I was running with lead-acids I noticed this same coincidence at least a couple of times. Always the last battery in the front battery box. Until I
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 21, 2011
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          Joe, when I was running with lead-acids I noticed this same coincidence at least a couple
          of times. Always the last battery in the front battery box. Until I read your post, I
          thought it was just that -- a coincidence -- but I'd love to talk to a battery expert and
          see if this is a known phenomena.

          I don't have my old lead-acid wiring diagram handy right now -- is that the most-positive
          battery?

          -Tom

          On 4/21/2011 12:46 AM, chilejose@... wrote:
          >
          > 97 Force
          >
          > Hi, I have a strange problem that has occurred 3 times already. The
          > overall pack of 13 Deka 8G27's is about 5 - 7 years old and the car has 27M
          > miles. I monitor the pack with Pak-trakr and can see when things as they are
          > going bad. Every 6 months for the last 18 months I have lost the 13th
          > battery, front passenger. I drive the car 4 days a week 25 miles on the freeway
          > then occasionally on the weekends and always below 30AH drain.
          >
          > Wondered if anyone else has seen this phenomena? I always move one battery
          > from the back 8 to the front position and put in the new battery in the
          > middle of the string. Then I always limit my driving to 10 miles until the
          > new battery begins to act like the older ones.
          >
          > Joe
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >

          --
          Thomas Hudson
          http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power& More
          http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • anbausa
          I ve heard of this happening on other vehicles and on other battery chemistries when the pack is air cooled. There tends to be hot spots in the pack and this
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 21, 2011
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            I've heard of this happening on other vehicles and on other battery chemistries when the pack is air cooled. There tends to be hot spots in the pack and this is where the batteries usually fail first. It even happens with the NiMH batteries in the RAV4 EV, there are a couple of spots in the pack where modules fail more often than other positions in the string.

            Noel
            evfinder.com

            --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Tom Hudson <tdhudson@...> wrote:
            >
            > Joe, when I was running with lead-acids I noticed this same coincidence at least a couple
            > of times. Always the last battery in the front battery box. Until I read your post, I
            > thought it was just that -- a coincidence -- but I'd love to talk to a battery expert and
            > see if this is a known phenomena.
            >
            > I don't have my old lead-acid wiring diagram handy right now -- is that the most-positive
            > battery?
            >
            > -Tom
            >
            > On 4/21/2011 12:46 AM, chilejose@... wrote:
            > >
            > > 97 Force
            > >
            > > Hi, I have a strange problem that has occurred 3 times already. The
            > > overall pack of 13 Deka 8G27's is about 5 - 7 years old and the car has 27M
            > > miles. I monitor the pack with Pak-trakr and can see when things as they are
            > > going bad. Every 6 months for the last 18 months I have lost the 13th
            > > battery, front passenger. I drive the car 4 days a week 25 miles on the freeway
            > > then occasionally on the weekends and always below 30AH drain.
            > >
            > > Wondered if anyone else has seen this phenomena? I always move one battery
            > > from the back 8 to the front position and put in the new battery in the
            > > middle of the string. Then I always limit my driving to 10 miles until the
            > > new battery begins to act like the older ones.
            > >
            > > Joe
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            >
            > --
            > Thomas Hudson
            > http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power& More
            > http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Wolf
            I would check and see if there is something wrong with the pack track... It might be putting an extra load on the battery keeping it from charging fully during
            Message 5 of 14 , Apr 21, 2011
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              I would check and see if there is something wrong with the pack track...

              It might be putting an extra load on the battery keeping it from charging
              fully during each charging cycle...

              Can you swap the pack track connections between battery 12 and 13?

              Or measure the impedance of the pack track connections, and see if battery
              13 is much lower than the rest.

              Wolf
              *wags his tail*
              www.wolftronix.com
              On Apr 21, 2011 9:23 AM, "Ken Olum" <kdo@...> wrote:
              > I don't know why it should always be the one position that is failing
              > first, but with 27,000 miles they don't really owe you anything, and
              > it's probably time to replace the pack. Personally I think it makes
              > more sense when replacing a single battery to put the new battery in
              > the same position as the one that failed. Then if there is some cause
              > (e.g., temperature extremes) you have the battery in the best
              > condition in the place that gets the most wear. But I wouldn't
              > replace a single battery in a pack with much over 20,000 miles.
              >
              > Ken


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • ldr214
              The passenger side front battery is the #1 battery per Solectria and number 13 is in the rear. The number one battery is the most negative in the string and
              Message 6 of 14 , Apr 21, 2011
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                The passenger side front battery is the #1 battery per Solectria and number 13 is in the rear. The number one battery is the most negative in the string and 13 is the most positive.

                I've read a number of articles which discuss this issue in regrads to long strings failing at the ends. Mostly in reference to telcom UPS. Anyhow the conclusion was that it happens but by the time you see this going on it isn't worth the labor to swap them around.

                The weak just keep getting weaker and entire string fails. You either get new batteries or drive according to the weakest link.

                Failures that I've seen have been on batteries that would be in a "hot" position (like 3 & 11). Keeping the pack under 100 degrees takes some effort around here in the summer.

                Lead is still going up in price.

                Mike R
                97 Solectria
                34425 miles
                Greensaver SSW100's 5000 miles





                --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Tom Hudson <tdhudson@...> wrote:
                >
                > Joe, when I was running with lead-acids I noticed this same coincidence at least a couple
                > of times. Always the last battery in the front battery box. Until I read your post, I
                > thought it was just that -- a coincidence -- but I'd love to talk to a battery expert and
                > see if this is a known phenomena.
                >
                > I don't have my old lead-acid wiring diagram handy right now -- is that the most-positive
                > battery?
                >
                > -Tom
                >
                > On 4/21/2011 12:46 AM, chilejose@... wrote:
                > >
                > > 97 Force
                > >
                > > Hi, I have a strange problem that has occurred 3 times already. The
                > > overall pack of 13 Deka 8G27's is about 5 - 7 years old and the car has 27M
                > > miles. I monitor the pack with Pak-trakr and can see when things as they are
                > > going bad. Every 6 months for the last 18 months I have lost the 13th
                > > battery, front passenger. I drive the car 4 days a week 25 miles on the freeway
                > > then occasionally on the weekends and always below 30AH drain.
                > >
                > > Wondered if anyone else has seen this phenomena? I always move one battery
                > > from the back 8 to the front position and put in the new battery in the
                > > middle of the string. Then I always limit my driving to 10 miles until the
                > > new battery begins to act like the older ones.
                > >
                > > Joe
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                >
                > --
                > Thomas Hudson
                > http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power& More
                > http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • chilejose@aol.com
                Thanks Ken Agree, The first time the battery failed I put the new battery in that position but today s 8G27 s are not really as good as the older design. The
                Message 7 of 14 , Apr 21, 2011
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                  Thanks Ken

                  Agree, The first time the battery failed I put the new battery in that
                  position but today's 8G27's are not really as good as the older design. The
                  pack batteries all read between 75-80 AH after being in the pack for over 5
                  years but the new Deka came to me after fully charging at 80AH. I ran it
                  through 6 cycles at 10 miles at it still barely read 78AH ... I sent it back
                  and got another one which then I swap positions thinking that might help..

                  Joe


                  In a message dated 4/21/2011 06:23:37 Pacific Standard Time,
                  kdo@... writes:




                  I don't know why it should always be the one position that is failing
                  first, but with 27,000 miles they don't really owe you anything, and
                  it's probably time to replace the pack. Personally I think it makes
                  more sense when replacing a single battery to put the new battery in
                  the same position as the one that failed. Then if there is some cause
                  (e.g., temperature extremes) you have the battery in the best
                  condition in the place that gets the most wear. But I wouldn't
                  replace a single battery in a pack with much over 20,000 miles.

                  Ken




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • chilejose@aol.com
                  I do not have the wiring schematic but think the front box string is last and then the 13th position is most negative. I will look for the diagram and
                  Message 8 of 14 , Apr 21, 2011
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                    I do not have the wiring schematic but think the front box string is last
                    and then the 13th position is most negative. I will look for the diagram
                    and confirm. I ran the car for about 4000 miles with no issues until the
                    first death of the 13th battery. Ordering a new DEKA and it should be here
                    to begin this adventure next week.

                    Joe


                    In a message dated 4/21/2011 06:32:54 Pacific Standard Time,
                    tdhudson@... writes:




                    Joe, when I was running with lead-acids I noticed this same coincidence at
                    least a couple
                    of times. Always the last battery in the front battery box. Until I read
                    your post, I
                    thought it was just that -- a coincidence -- but I'd love to talk to a
                    battery expert and
                    see if this is a known phenomena.

                    I don't have my old lead-acid wiring diagram handy right now -- is that
                    the most-positive
                    battery?

                    -Tom

                    On 4/21/2011 12:46 AM, _chilejose@..._ (mailto:chilejose@...)
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > 97 Force
                    >
                    > Hi, I have a strange problem that has occurred 3 times already. The
                    > overall pack of 13 Deka 8G27's is about 5 - 7 years old and the car has
                    27M
                    > miles. I monitor the pack with Pak-trakr and can see when things as they
                    are
                    > going bad. Every 6 months for the last 18 months I have lost the 13th
                    > battery, front passenger. I drive the car 4 days a week 25 miles on the
                    freeway
                    > then occasionally on the weekends and always below 30AH drain.
                    >
                    > Wondered if anyone else has seen this phenomena? I always move one
                    battery
                    > from the back 8 to the front position and put in the new battery in the
                    > middle of the string. Then I always limit my driving to 10 miles until
                    the
                    > new battery begins to act like the older ones.
                    >
                    > Joe
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >

                    --
                    Thomas Hudson
                    _http://portev.org_ (http://portev.org/) -- Electric Vehicles, Solar
                    Power& More
                    _http://klanky.com_ (http://klanky.com/) -- Animation Projects

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • chilejose@aol.com
                    Thanks Wolf It makes more sense that something due to charging / draw is the issue. When you say pack track ... do you just mean the cables to the 13th
                    Message 9 of 14 , Apr 21, 2011
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                      Thanks Wolf

                      It makes more sense that something due to charging / draw is the issue.
                      When you say pack track ... do you just mean the cables to the 13th battery.
                      Just change both of them?

                      Joe


                      In a message dated 4/21/2011 07:27:27 Pacific Standard Time,
                      wolf@... writes:




                      I would check and see if there is something wrong with the pack track...

                      It might be putting an extra load on the battery keeping it from charging
                      fully during each charging cycle...

                      Can you swap the pack track connections between battery 12 and 13?

                      Or measure the impedance of the pack track connections, and see if battery
                      13 is much lower than the rest.

                      Wolf
                      *wags his tail*
                      www.wolftronix.com
                      On Apr 21, 2011 9:23 AM, "Ken Olum" <_kdo@..._
                      (mailto:kdo@...) > wrote:
                      > I don't know why it should always be the one position that is failing
                      > first, but with 27,000 miles they don't really owe you anything, and
                      > it's probably time to replace the pack. Personally I think it makes
                      > more sense when replacing a single battery to put the new battery in
                      > the same position as the one that failed. Then if there is some cause
                      > (e.g., temperature extremes) you have the battery in the best
                      > condition in the place that gets the most wear. But I wouldn't
                      > replace a single battery in a pack with much over 20,000 miles.
                      >
                      > Ken

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • chilejose@aol.com
                      Great Mike So the #1 battery ( Front passenger) is the MOST negative? Opposite as to what I thought has been communicated previous in some older post. My
                      Message 10 of 14 , Apr 21, 2011
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                        Great Mike

                        So the #1 battery ( Front passenger) is the MOST negative? Opposite as to
                        what I thought has been communicated previous in some older post. My bad
                        ..

                        I also saw a few articles about batteries failing at ends thus really
                        thought that was my 13th battery issue. Gues not.

                        I have checked each battery last summer and found them all to be about
                        equal AH's. I will do that again as I install the new battery.

                        Got a lot advice about not doing the battery position swap and do agree
                        that it's a loosing act.

                        The car has been great and have now determined to sell it. I only drive
                        the car to work, 12 miles there then home. I must maintain another car at
                        work since my job causes me to run around 2-3 times a week. It just does
                        not make sense to keep it. The next person might be set up with a better
                        situation to charge at work or even have solar panels at home for FREE
                        electricity.

                        Once I get the new battery, I'll check all of them again, look for some
                        evidence Wolf mentioned on the cables and install the pack. If I do not find
                        something ... The pack still is very strong to drive a few months.

                        Thanks for the help

                        Joe


                        In a message dated 4/21/2011 13:48:25 Pacific Standard Time,
                        replytome@... writes:

                        The passenger side front battery is the #1 battery per Solectria and
                        number 13 is in the rear. The number one battery is the most negative in the
                        string and 13 is the most positive.

                        I've read a number of articles which discuss this issue in regrads to long
                        strings failing at the ends. Mostly in reference to telcom UPS. Anyhow the
                        conclusion was that it happens but by the time you see this going on it
                        isn't worth the labor to swap them around.

                        The weak just keep getting weaker and entire string fails. You either get
                        new batteries or drive according to the weakest link.

                        Failures that I've seen have been on batteries that would be in a "hot"
                        position (like 3 & 11). Keeping the pack under 100 degrees takes some effort
                        around here in the summer.

                        Lead is still going up in price.

                        Mike R
                        97 Solectria
                        34425 miles
                        Greensaver SSW100's 5000 miles




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Wolf Packs, Inc.
                        ... I m not surprised the battery in that position is failing first. I think it starts the day with less juice than all the others. It might be progressively
                        Message 11 of 14 , Apr 22, 2011
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                          > The passenger side front battery is the #1 battery per Solectria and number 13 is in the rear. The number one battery is the most negative in the string

                          > Joe, when I was running with lead-acids I noticed this same coincidence at least a couple
                          > of times. Always the last battery in the front battery box. Until I read your post, I
                          > thought it was just that -- a coincidence -- but I'd love to talk to a battery expert and
                          > see if this is a known phenomena.
                          >

                          I'm not surprised the battery in that position is failing first. I think it starts the day with less juice than all the others. It might be progressively less juice as the years go by. Things are not as sensitive with the lead batteries and 12.5 volts but maybe occasionally manually topping off the #1 battery in a standard Force is a good idea.

                          My BMS reads out to three decimal places and almost every morning the most negative cell in my 48 cell pack (front box, passenger side, #1) is the lowest, reading 3.335 volts or thereabouts. Often it is .02 or .025 volts lower than most of the others. Usually #2 or #3 are the next lowest cells. This happens after the balancing & charging has shut off. I have swapped my best cells into these position twice and get the same result. I checked to see that the readouts are correct and they are. Others on this list suggested it's because the DC/DC converter is always drawing a trickle of juice and it somehow comes out of that end of the string. I put extra wires coming from my three most negative cells to a place under the hood where I can manually top them off. If I don't, my balancer can not compensate enough and I progressively get further from a balanced pack.

                          No recent pictures on the blog, but I'll update it soon with a driving report when I get to 5,000 miles on this pack. Perhaps I'll even make that long promised distance run. I need to find a relatively flat area to get a realistic distance run, everything around here is hilly.

                          http://traildog.blogspot.com/

                          Paul Martin
                          Ashland, Oregon




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • chilejose@aol.com
                          Super suggestion. I ll get the new battery then set up an addition TOP Charge for position 1 and monitor. I might do the first 3 battery as I have small 2.5
                          Message 12 of 14 , Apr 22, 2011
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                            Super suggestion. I'll get the new battery then set up an addition TOP
                            Charge for position 1 and monitor.

                            I might do the first 3 battery as I have small 2.5 amp 36 volt charger
                            sitting around the garage.

                            I'll report findings

                            Joe


                            In a message dated 4/22/2011 07:52:59 Pacific Standard Time,
                            traildog@... writes:




                            > The passenger side front battery is the #1 battery per Solectria and
                            number 13 is in the rear. The number one battery is the most negative in the
                            string

                            > Joe, when I was running with lead-acids I noticed this same coincidence
                            at least a couple
                            > of times. Always the last battery in the front battery box. Until I read
                            your post, I
                            > thought it was just that -- a coincidence -- but I'd love to talk to a
                            battery expert and
                            > see if this is a known phenomena.
                            >

                            I'm not surprised the battery in that position is failing first. I think
                            it starts the day with less juice than all the others. It might be
                            progressively less juice as the years go by. Things are not as sensitive with the
                            lead batteries and 12.5 volts but maybe occasionally manually topping off the
                            #1 battery in a standard Force is a good idea.

                            My BMS reads out to three decimal places and almost every morning the most
                            negative cell in my 48 cell pack (front box, passenger side, #1) is the
                            lowest, reading 3.335 volts or thereabouts. Often it is .02 or .025 volts
                            lower than most of the others. Usually #2 or #3 are the next lowest cells.
                            This happens after the balancing & charging has shut off. I have swapped my
                            best cells into these position twice and get the same result. I checked to
                            see that the readouts are correct and they are. Others on this list suggested
                            it's because the DC/DC converter is always drawing a trickle of juice and
                            it somehow comes out of that end of the string. I put extra wires coming
                            from my three most negative cells to a place under the hood where I can
                            manually top them off. If I don't, my balancer can not compensate enough and I
                            progressively get further from a balanced pack.

                            No recent pictures on the blog, but I'll update it soon with a driving
                            report when I get to 5,000 miles on this pack. Perhaps I'll even make that
                            long promised distance run. I need to find a relatively flat area to get a
                            realistic distance run, everything around here is hilly.

                            _http://traildog.blogspot.com/_ (http://traildog.blogspot.com/)

                            Paul Martin
                            Ashland, Oregon

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Wolf Packs, Inc.
                            ... Joe, I m still a novice at all this battery stuff, but with 12V batteries in the front box I doubt the 2nd and 3rd batteries will show much of a decrease
                            Message 13 of 14 , Apr 23, 2011
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                              >
                              > I'll get the new battery then set up an addition TOP
                              > Charge for position 1 and monitor.
                              >
                              > I might do the first 3 battery as I have small 2.5 amp 36 volt charger
                              > sitting around the garage.

                              Joe, I'm still a novice at all this battery stuff, but with 12V batteries in the front box I doubt the 2nd and 3rd batteries will show much of a decrease in voltage overnight or over the weekend. With 3.2V cells it is noticeable on the adjacent cells. I don't know if your 36 volt charger would be hard on the #2 and #3 batteries if they were already at full charge.

                              If I had a timer that could handle the 11 ~ 12 amps I'd just set my car to start charging at 2 am and the trickle drain would not be a factor. I see a 20 amp timer for $35 so that might be an easy solution. http://www.amazon.com/Time-Clock-Intermatic-110V-20Amp/dp/B003ZHB3QU Any thoughts from those of you who use a timer if this timer will melt from 5 hours of nightly use?

                              Paul Martin
                              Ashland, Oregon
                              1997 Force with 48 100Ah Lithium
                              110V Zivan NG3 charger
                            • theoldcars@aol.com
                              Hello Noel Yes your correct. The failures in the RAV4 EV are all do to poor cooling in the tray. The modules nearest the fans have the best cooling and the
                              Message 14 of 14 , Apr 27, 2011
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                                Hello Noel

                                Yes your correct.

                                The failures in the RAV4 EV are all do to poor cooling in the tray. The
                                modules nearest the fans have the best cooling and the modules in the last row
                                run warmer. All the air entering the tray exits out through the center of
                                the modules. The modules farther from the fans do not get the benefit of
                                the air passing over them the first two rows have. Also the air passing over
                                the first two rows is heated by the modules. So the third row from the fans
                                receives the least amount of air and it is also then the warmest air in
                                the pack. Cooling is critical for long life with NiMH batteries and over time
                                slight differences take their toll.

                                It usually takes at least 50,000 miles before this becomes noticeable or
                                causes a module to fail. Depending on how the pack is taken care of and
                                conditions it is used under a pack can still last as much as 120,000 to 150,000
                                miles.

                                Don


                                In a message dated 4/21/2011 7:37:42 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                                evfinder@... writes:

                                I've heard of this happening on other vehicles and on other battery
                                chemistries when the pack is air cooled. There tends to be hot spots in the pack
                                and this is where the batteries usually fail first. It even happens with
                                the NiMH batteries in the RAV4 EV, there are a couple of spots in the pack
                                where modules fail more often than other positions in the string.

                                Noel
                                evfinder.com

                                --- In _solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com)
                                , Tom Hudson <tdhudson@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Joe, when I was running with lead-acids I noticed this same coincidence
                                at least a couple
                                > of times. Always the last battery in the front battery box. Until I read
                                your post, I
                                > thought it was just that -- a coincidence -- but I'd love to talk to a
                                battery expert and
                                > see if this is a known phenomena.
                                >
                                > I don't have my old lead-acid wiring diagram handy right now -- is that
                                the most-positive
                                > battery?
                                >
                                > -Tom
                                >
                                > On 4/21/2011 12:46 AM, chilejose@... wrote:
                                > >
                                > > 97 Force
                                > >
                                > > Hi, I have a strange problem that has occurred 3 times already. The
                                > > overall pack of 13 Deka 8G27's is about 5 - 7 years old and the car
                                has 27M
                                > > miles. I monitor the pack with Pak-trakr and can see when things as
                                they are
                                > > going bad. Every 6 months for the last 18 months I have lost the 13th
                                > > battery, front passenger. I drive the car 4 days a week 25 miles on
                                the freeway
                                > > then occasionally on the weekends and always below 30AH drain.
                                > >
                                > > Wondered if anyone else has seen this phenomena? I always move one
                                battery
                                > > from the back 8 to the front position and put in the new battery in the
                                > > middle of the string. Then I always limit my driving to 10 miles until
                                the
                                > > new battery begins to act like the older ones.
                                > >
                                > > Joe



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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