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Hipower Li Batteries

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  • William S
    There is lots of discussion about Thundersky and Calb batteries. What are some experiences about the Hipower brand? Thanks in advance.
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 22, 2011
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      There is lots of discussion about Thundersky and Calb batteries. What are some experiences about the Hipower brand?
      Thanks in advance.
    • theoldcars@aol.com
      The HiPower seem to be a little better then Thundersky. Lan in the Ranger EV group has been using the HiPower for a couple of years.The CALB are better then
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 22, 2011
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        The HiPower seem to be a little better then Thundersky. Lan in the Ranger
        EV group has been using the HiPower for a couple of years.The CALB are
        better then both Thundersky and HiPower but a little more costly. If long pack
        life is a major factor then the CALB would be money well spent. The CALB
        would also have a far longer life cycle under higher loads.

        I do not sell LifePo4 batteries or have financial investments in any
        battery company. I do have a large supply of NiMH modules and a pack of A123
        cells made up of 3120 cells. I started the A123 project well before the CALB
        became the bargain they are now. If at the time these CALB cells were
        available I would have used them. The CALB are about 1/3 the cost and far less
        interconnects.

        Don


        In a message dated 1/22/2011 4:24:30 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
        william.swann2@... writes:

        There is lots of discussion about Thundersky and Calb batteries. What are
        some experiences about the Hipower brand?
        Thanks in advance.



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • skeezmour
        We work with many batteries out there and at this time will not support the Hipower cells. This is based on previous testing that we have done as well as
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 23, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          We work with many batteries out there and at this time will not support the Hipower cells. This is based on previous testing that we have done as well as following customers experience with them on many of the fourms. If we see that they have made changes to the cells we would revisit them but for now I would consider them a no go.

          If you must use them please remember they are a very low C cell. I know many of the electric motorcycles and scooters have tried to use them due to the low cost with mostly poor results. In a very gentle car application you may be able to have reasonable results.

          As Dan says the CALB cells are fantastic and are only a very slight premium over TS (now Winston Battery). Best of luck out there.

          Gene

          --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "William S" <william.swann2@...> wrote:
          >
          > There is lots of discussion about Thundersky and Calb batteries. What are some experiences about the Hipower brand?
          > Thanks in advance.
          >
        • theoldcars@aol.com
          About 6 or 8 months ago HiPower released larger 100Ah cells. HiPower increased the size and weight but still rated them at 100Ah but their C rating was
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 23, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            About 6 or 8 months ago HiPower released larger 100Ah cells. HiPower
            increased the size and weight but still rated them at 100Ah but their C rating
            was improved.

            There is many considerations when sizing the correct Ah cell for your use.
            In the lower cost cells pushing the C rating is going to cause early
            failures. I assumed since this is a Solectria list that your usage would be one
            with a higher voltage low amperage. However if you size the cells smaller
            your C rating does become a much larger factor.

            All data I have seen shows far greater cycle life when used at less then
            1C. Also to not fully charge or discharge will vastly increase your cycle
            life.

            Its all comes down to how much money one has to spend and your daily
            needs. I found with a 100 miles of EV range is something I hardly ever use. For
            someone else they might not be able to use an EV unless it has this type of
            range.

            A large pack does give you the option of vastly increasing the cycle life
            and extended range. In higher quality LifePo4 calendar life becomes a
            greater concern then cycle life.

            The problem is none of these battery manufacturers are providing enough
            data for EV use. As Gene points out there is a lot of different forms and EVs
            trying out this chemistry. As an example motorcycles can be a very high C
            demand. If someone is using a DC motor and a high amp controller their
            going to quickly find out who has better cells. Sure they could get by with
            less demand but most motorcycle riders are not going to drive like your
            typical EV driver. So cells that might fail for their loads could be useable for
            you.

            The problem with taking others results is their use actually known by the
            driver. I have seen graphs of loads while driving and even with high voltage
            packs the C loads can be very surprising high. Steep hills at high speeds
            require a serious amount of power.

            It would be best if your driving conditions were driven with an EV where
            you could see your loads. You could get a closer idea of what your actual
            driving conditions are going to require. If your lucky and live in a totally
            flat area your EV load can be vastly less. I am in a very hilly area and to
            drive like an ICE requires more power for 5 or 8 minutes then a 200 amp
            home service. Steep hills at freeway speeds are pack killers.

            Again of the low cost cells I would pick the CALB. I would strongly
            recommend you know your driving loads. If your in a cold area with a serious
            heater usage and lots of hills. Regardless of the brand I would buy as large a
            Ah cell as you could afford or that will fit.

            Don


            In a message dated 1/23/2011 9:48:20 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
            skeezmour@... writes:

            We work with many batteries out there and at this time will not support
            the Hipower cells. This is based on previous testing that we have done as
            well as following customers experience with them on many of the fourms. If we
            see that they have made changes to the cells we would revisit them but for
            now I would consider them a no go.

            If you must use them please remember they are a very low C cell. I know
            many of the electric motorcycles and scooters have tried to use them due to
            the low cost with mostly poor results. In a very gentle car application you
            may be able to have reasonable results.

            As Dan says the CALB cells are fantastic and are only a very slight
            premium over TS (now Winston Battery). Best of luck out there.

            Gene



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • William Swann
            Thanks for your thoughts. My application is an E-10, Vnom is 228, and when I punch it, I draw in excess of 300a. I did look at the Hipower specification sheet,
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 23, 2011
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              Thanks for your thoughts. My application is an E-10, Vnom is 228, and when I
              punch it, I draw in excess of 300a. I did look at the Hipower specification
              sheet, and the 100ah cells are capable of 3C for 15 seconds. My driving
              needs are 60 ish miles, but with 300 amps max. So, a good starting point is
              to look at the C ratings of TS,Calb,Hipower. I just looked at TS-60, and
              there are 2 ratings for discharge. Constant current 3CA, and Impulse Current
              of 20CA. I assume that the latter is for short durations. For Calb, it is
              10C.
              I agree, It boils down to what you can afford.

              On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 3:20 PM, <theoldcars@...> wrote:

              >
              >
              > About 6 or 8 months ago HiPower released larger 100Ah cells. HiPower
              > increased the size and weight but still rated them at 100Ah but their C
              > rating
              > was improved.
              >
              > There is many considerations when sizing the correct Ah cell for your use.
              > In the lower cost cells pushing the C rating is going to cause early
              > failures. I assumed since this is a Solectria list that your usage would be
              > one
              > with a higher voltage low amperage. However if you size the cells smaller
              > your C rating does become a much larger factor.
              >
              > All data I have seen shows far greater cycle life when used at less then
              > 1C. Also to not fully charge or discharge will vastly increase your cycle
              > life.
              >
              > Its all comes down to how much money one has to spend and your daily
              > needs. I found with a 100 miles of EV range is something I hardly ever use.
              > For
              > someone else they might not be able to use an EV unless it has this type of
              >
              > range.
              >
              > A large pack does give you the option of vastly increasing the cycle life
              > and extended range. In higher quality LifePo4 calendar life becomes a
              > greater concern then cycle life.
              >
              > The problem is none of these battery manufacturers are providing enough
              > data for EV use. As Gene points out there is a lot of different forms and
              > EVs
              > trying out this chemistry. As an example motorcycles can be a very high C
              > demand. If someone is using a DC motor and a high amp controller their
              > going to quickly find out who has better cells. Sure they could get by with
              >
              > less demand but most motorcycle riders are not going to drive like your
              > typical EV driver. So cells that might fail for their loads could be
              > useable for
              > you.
              >
              > The problem with taking others results is their use actually known by the
              > driver. I have seen graphs of loads while driving and even with high
              > voltage
              > packs the C loads can be very surprising high. Steep hills at high speeds
              > require a serious amount of power.
              >
              > It would be best if your driving conditions were driven with an EV where
              > you could see your loads. You could get a closer idea of what your actual
              > driving conditions are going to require. If your lucky and live in a
              > totally
              > flat area your EV load can be vastly less. I am in a very hilly area and to
              >
              > drive like an ICE requires more power for 5 or 8 minutes then a 200 amp
              > home service. Steep hills at freeway speeds are pack killers.
              >
              > Again of the low cost cells I would pick the CALB. I would strongly
              > recommend you know your driving loads. If your in a cold area with a
              > serious
              > heater usage and lots of hills. Regardless of the brand I would buy as
              > large a
              > Ah cell as you could afford or that will fit.
              >
              > Don
              >
              >
              > In a message dated 1/23/2011 9:48:20 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
              > skeezmour@... <skeezmour%40yahoo.com> writes:
              >
              > We work with many batteries out there and at this time will not support
              > the Hipower cells. This is based on previous testing that we have done as
              > well as following customers experience with them on many of the fourms. If
              > we
              > see that they have made changes to the cells we would revisit them but for
              > now I would consider them a no go.
              >
              > If you must use them please remember they are a very low C cell. I know
              > many of the electric motorcycles and scooters have tried to use them due to
              >
              > the low cost with mostly poor results. In a very gentle car application you
              >
              > may be able to have reasonable results.
              >
              > As Dan says the CALB cells are fantastic and are only a very slight
              > premium over TS (now Winston Battery). Best of luck out there.
              >
              > Gene
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >



              --
              Thanks, Bill S
              Ph 832-338-3080
              www.watt-tracker.com
              www.promotingevs.com


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Charles Bliss
              It is my understanding that the HighPower chemistry is designed and better suited for low temperature applications. As such, it might be a better choice for
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 23, 2011
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                It is my understanding that the HighPower chemistry is designed and better
                suited for low temperature applications. As such, it might be a better
                choice for Montana and Wisconsin but perhaps not so good for Texas or
                Arizona.

                -----Original Message-----
                From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com [mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of William Swann
                Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 1:52 PM
                To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Re: Hipower Li Batteries

                Thanks for your thoughts. My application is an E-10, Vnom is 228, and when I
                punch it, I draw in excess of 300a. I did look at the Hipower specification
                sheet, and the 100ah cells are capable of 3C for 15 seconds. My driving
                needs are 60 ish miles, but with 300 amps max. So, a good starting point is
                to look at the C ratings of TS,Calb,Hipower. I just looked at TS-60, and
                there are 2 ratings for discharge. Constant current 3CA, and Impulse Current
                of 20CA. I assume that the latter is for short durations. For Calb, it is
                10C.
                I agree, It boils down to what you can afford.
              • theoldcars@aol.com
                That is actually true for all LifePo4 or NiMH or lead batteries. None of these are going to do well in Arizona unless they are in a cooled pack. Don In a
                Message 7 of 11 , Jan 23, 2011
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                  That is actually true for all LifePo4 or NiMH or lead batteries. None of
                  these are going to do well in Arizona unless they are in a cooled pack.

                  Don


                  In a message dated 1/23/2011 2:08:26 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                  cbliss@... writes:

                  It is my understanding that the HighPower chemistry is designed and better
                  suited for low temperature applications. As such, it might be a better
                  choice for Montana and Wisconsin but perhaps not so good for Texas or
                  Arizona.

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: _solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com)
                  [mailto:_solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com_
                  (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com) ] On
                  Behalf Of William Swann
                  Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 1:52 PM
                  To: _solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com)
                  Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Re: Hipower Li Batteries

                  Thanks for your thoughts. My application is an E-10, Vnom is 228, and when
                  I
                  punch it, I draw in excess of 300a. I did look at the Hipower specification
                  sheet, and the 100ah cells are capable of 3C for 15 seconds. My driving
                  needs are 60 ish miles, but with 300 amps max. So, a good starting point is
                  to look at the C ratings of TS,Calb,Hipower. I just looked at TS-60, and
                  there are 2 ratings for discharge. Constant current 3CA, and Impulse
                  Current
                  of 20CA. I assume that the latter is for short durations. For Calb, it is
                  10C.
                  I agree, It boils down to what you can afford.




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • William Swann
                  Good point. My Zivan charger does start beeping sometimes in the summer. ... -- Thanks, Bill S Ph 832-338-3080 www.watt-tracker.com www.promotingevs.com
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jan 23, 2011
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                    Good point. My Zivan charger does start beeping sometimes in the summer.

                    On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 4:08 PM, Charles Bliss <cbliss@...> wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > It is my understanding that the HighPower chemistry is designed and better
                    > suited for low temperature applications. As such, it might be a better
                    > choice for Montana and Wisconsin but perhaps not so good for Texas or
                    > Arizona.
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com <solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com>[mailto:
                    > solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com <solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com>] On
                    > Behalf Of William Swann
                    > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 1:52 PM
                    > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com <solectria_ev%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Re: Hipower Li Batteries
                    >
                    > Thanks for your thoughts. My application is an E-10, Vnom is 228, and when
                    > I
                    > punch it, I draw in excess of 300a. I did look at the Hipower specification
                    > sheet, and the 100ah cells are capable of 3C for 15 seconds. My driving
                    > needs are 60 ish miles, but with 300 amps max. So, a good starting point is
                    > to look at the C ratings of TS,Calb,Hipower. I just looked at TS-60, and
                    > there are 2 ratings for discharge. Constant current 3CA, and Impulse
                    > Current
                    > of 20CA. I assume that the latter is for short durations. For Calb, it is
                    > 10C.
                    > I agree, It boils down to what you can afford.
                    >
                    >
                    >



                    --
                    Thanks, Bill S
                    Ph 832-338-3080
                    www.watt-tracker.com
                    www.promotingevs.com


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • theoldcars@aol.com
                    How long are you pulling 300 amps? If you need 60 miles of range and with loads of 300 amps I would go with at least 100 Ah cells. CALB I hear is going to
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jan 23, 2011
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                      How long are you pulling 300 amps? If you need 60 miles of range and with
                      loads of 300 amps I would go with at least 100 Ah cells. CALB I hear is
                      going to release a 70 Ah cell. Without doing any figures it seems to me your
                      going to need 100 to 120 Ah cells. If you were running a higher voltage say
                      360 or so you could get by with a smaller cell.

                      The CALB seem to go for around 135 dollars for a 100 Ah cell. That would
                      make your pack about 9500 dollars for the voltage your looking for.

                      Don


                      In a message dated 1/23/2011 1:59:05 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                      william.swann2@... writes:

                      Thanks for your thoughts. My application is an E-10, Vnom is 228, and when
                      I
                      punch it, I draw in excess of 300a. I did look at the Hipower
                      specification
                      sheet, and the 100ah cells are capable of 3C for 15 seconds. My driving
                      needs are 60 ish miles, but with 300 amps max. So, a good starting point is
                      to look at the C ratings of TS,Calb,Hipower. I just looked at TS-60, and
                      there are 2 ratings for discharge. Constant current 3CA, and Impulse
                      Current
                      of 20CA. I assume that the latter is for short durations. For Calb, it is
                      10C.
                      I agree, It boils down to what you can afford.

                      On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 3:20 PM, <theoldcars@...> wrote:

                      >
                      >
                      > About 6 or 8 months ago HiPower released larger 100Ah cells. HiPower
                      > increased the size and weight but still rated them at 100Ah but their C
                      > rating
                      > was improved.
                      >
                      > There is many considerations when sizing the correct Ah cell for your
                      use.
                      > In the lower cost cells pushing the C rating is going to cause early
                      > failures. I assumed since this is a Solectria list that your usage would
                      be
                      > one
                      > with a higher voltage low amperage. However if you size the cells smaller
                      > your C rating does become a much larger factor.
                      >
                      > All data I have seen shows far greater cycle life when used at less then
                      > 1C. Also to not fully charge or discharge will vastly increase your cycle
                      > life.
                      >
                      > Its all comes down to how much money one has to spend and your daily
                      > needs. I found with a 100 miles of EV range is something I hardly ever
                      use.
                      > For
                      > someone else they might not be able to use an EV unless it has this type
                      of
                      >
                      > range.
                      >
                      > A large pack does give you the option of vastly increasing the cycle life
                      > and extended range. In higher quality LifePo4 calendar life becomes a
                      > greater concern then cycle life.
                      >
                      > The problem is none of these battery manufacturers are providing enough
                      > data for EV use. As Gene points out there is a lot of different forms and
                      > EVs
                      > trying out this chemistry. As an example motorcycles can be a very high C
                      > demand. If someone is using a DC motor and a high amp controller their
                      > going to quickly find out who has better cells. Sure they could get by
                      with
                      >
                      > less demand but most motorcycle riders are not going to drive like your
                      > typical EV driver. So cells that might fail for their loads could be
                      > useable for
                      > you.
                      >
                      > The problem with taking others results is their use actually known by the
                      > driver. I have seen graphs of loads while driving and even with high
                      > voltage
                      > packs the C loads can be very surprising high. Steep hills at high speeds
                      > require a serious amount of power.
                      >
                      > It would be best if your driving conditions were driven with an EV where
                      > you could see your loads. You could get a closer idea of what your
                      actual
                      > driving conditions are going to require. If your lucky and live in a
                      > totally
                      > flat area your EV load can be vastly less. I am in a very hilly area and
                      to
                      >
                      > drive like an ICE requires more power for 5 or 8 minutes then a 200 amp
                      > home service. Steep hills at freeway speeds are pack killers.
                      >
                      > Again of the low cost cells I would pick the CALB. I would strongly
                      > recommend you know your driving loads. If your in a cold area with a
                      > serious
                      > heater usage and lots of hills. Regardless of the brand I would buy as
                      > large a
                      > Ah cell as you could afford or that will fit.
                      >
                      > Don
                      >
                      >
                      > In a message dated 1/23/2011 9:48:20 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                      > skeezmour@... <skeezmour%40yahoo.com> writes:
                      >
                      > We work with many batteries out there and at this time will not support
                      > the Hipower cells. This is based on previous testing that we have done as
                      > well as following customers experience with them on many of the fourms.
                      If
                      > we
                      > see that they have made changes to the cells we would revisit them but
                      for
                      > now I would consider them a no go.
                      >
                      > If you must use them please remember they are a very low C cell. I know
                      > many of the electric motorcycles and scooters have tried to use them due
                      to
                      >
                      > the low cost with mostly poor results. In a very gentle car application
                      you
                      >
                      > may be able to have reasonable results.
                      >
                      > As Dan says the CALB cells are fantastic and are only a very slight
                      > premium over TS (now Winston Battery). Best of luck out there.
                      >
                      > Gene
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >



                      --
                      Thanks, Bill S
                      Ph 832-338-3080
                      www.watt-tracker.com
                      www.promotingevs.com



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • William Swann
                      The 300 Amp draw is a hard acceleration. A feel good test. As you know, there is a pot that limits the amps. I normally drive with it set at 150 amps. Lately I
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jan 23, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        The 300 Amp draw is a hard acceleration. A feel good test. As you know,
                        there is a pot that limits the amps. I normally drive with it set at 150
                        amps.
                        Lately I have not seen much of a downward trend in the Li battery prices.[?]

                        On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 5:09 PM, <theoldcars@...> wrote:

                        >
                        >
                        > How long are you pulling 300 amps? If you need 60 miles of range and with
                        > loads of 300 amps I would go with at least 100 Ah cells. CALB I hear is
                        > going to release a 70 Ah cell. Without doing any figures it seems to me
                        > your
                        > going to need 100 to 120 Ah cells. If you were running a higher voltage say
                        >
                        > 360 or so you could get by with a smaller cell.
                        >
                        > The CALB seem to go for around 135 dollars for a 100 Ah cell. That would
                        > make your pack about 9500 dollars for the voltage your looking for.
                        >
                        > Don
                        >
                        >
                        > In a message dated 1/23/2011 1:59:05 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                        > william.swann2@... <william.swann2%40gmail.com> writes:
                        >
                        > Thanks for your thoughts. My application is an E-10, Vnom is 228, and when
                        > I
                        > punch it, I draw in excess of 300a. I did look at the Hipower
                        > specification
                        > sheet, and the 100ah cells are capable of 3C for 15 seconds. My driving
                        > needs are 60 ish miles, but with 300 amps max. So, a good starting point is
                        > to look at the C ratings of TS,Calb,Hipower. I just looked at TS-60, and
                        > there are 2 ratings for discharge. Constant current 3CA, and Impulse
                        > Current
                        > of 20CA. I assume that the latter is for short durations. For Calb, it is
                        > 10C.
                        > I agree, It boils down to what you can afford.
                        >
                        > On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 3:20 PM, <theoldcars@...<theoldcars%40aol.com>>
                        > wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > About 6 or 8 months ago HiPower released larger 100Ah cells. HiPower
                        > > increased the size and weight but still rated them at 100Ah but their C
                        > > rating
                        > > was improved.
                        > >
                        > > There is many considerations when sizing the correct Ah cell for your
                        > use.
                        > > In the lower cost cells pushing the C rating is going to cause early
                        > > failures. I assumed since this is a Solectria list that your usage would
                        > be
                        > > one
                        > > with a higher voltage low amperage. However if you size the cells smaller
                        > > your C rating does become a much larger factor.
                        > >
                        > > All data I have seen shows far greater cycle life when used at less then
                        > > 1C. Also to not fully charge or discharge will vastly increase your cycle
                        > > life.
                        > >
                        > > Its all comes down to how much money one has to spend and your daily
                        > > needs. I found with a 100 miles of EV range is something I hardly ever
                        > use.
                        > > For
                        > > someone else they might not be able to use an EV unless it has this type
                        > of
                        > >
                        > > range.
                        > >
                        > > A large pack does give you the option of vastly increasing the cycle life
                        > > and extended range. In higher quality LifePo4 calendar life becomes a
                        > > greater concern then cycle life.
                        > >
                        > > The problem is none of these battery manufacturers are providing enough
                        > > data for EV use. As Gene points out there is a lot of different forms and
                        > > EVs
                        > > trying out this chemistry. As an example motorcycles can be a very high C
                        > > demand. If someone is using a DC motor and a high amp controller their
                        > > going to quickly find out who has better cells. Sure they could get by
                        > with
                        > >
                        > > less demand but most motorcycle riders are not going to drive like your
                        > > typical EV driver. So cells that might fail for their loads could be
                        > > useable for
                        > > you.
                        > >
                        > > The problem with taking others results is their use actually known by the
                        > > driver. I have seen graphs of loads while driving and even with high
                        > > voltage
                        > > packs the C loads can be very surprising high. Steep hills at high speeds
                        > > require a serious amount of power.
                        > >
                        > > It would be best if your driving conditions were driven with an EV where
                        > > you could see your loads. You could get a closer idea of what your
                        > actual
                        > > driving conditions are going to require. If your lucky and live in a
                        > > totally
                        > > flat area your EV load can be vastly less. I am in a very hilly area and
                        > to
                        > >
                        > > drive like an ICE requires more power for 5 or 8 minutes then a 200 amp
                        > > home service. Steep hills at freeway speeds are pack killers.
                        > >
                        > > Again of the low cost cells I would pick the CALB. I would strongly
                        > > recommend you know your driving loads. If your in a cold area with a
                        > > serious
                        > > heater usage and lots of hills. Regardless of the brand I would buy as
                        > > large a
                        > > Ah cell as you could afford or that will fit.
                        > >
                        > > Don
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > In a message dated 1/23/2011 9:48:20 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                        > > skeezmour@... <skeezmour%40yahoo.com> <skeezmour%40yahoo.com>
                        > writes:
                        > >
                        > > We work with many batteries out there and at this time will not support
                        > > the Hipower cells. This is based on previous testing that we have done as
                        > > well as following customers experience with them on many of the fourms.
                        > If
                        > > we
                        > > see that they have made changes to the cells we would revisit them but
                        > for
                        > > now I would consider them a no go.
                        > >
                        > > If you must use them please remember they are a very low C cell. I know
                        > > many of the electric motorcycles and scooters have tried to use them due
                        > to
                        > >
                        > > the low cost with mostly poor results. In a very gentle car application
                        > you
                        > >
                        > > may be able to have reasonable results.
                        > >
                        > > As Dan says the CALB cells are fantastic and are only a very slight
                        > > premium over TS (now Winston Battery). Best of luck out there.
                        > >
                        > > Gene
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        > --
                        > Thanks, Bill S
                        > Ph 832-338-3080
                        > www.watt-tracker.com
                        > www.promotingevs.com
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >



                        --
                        Thanks, Bill S
                        Ph 832-338-3080
                        www.watt-tracker.com
                        www.promotingevs.com


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Wolf
                        Yeah, I have been waiting on the price of Lithium-ions to come down, because I want to upgrade my E-10 to lithium... But I think they prices are going to stay
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jan 24, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Yeah, I have been waiting on the price of Lithium-ions to come down, because
                          I want to upgrade my E-10 to lithium...

                          But I think they prices are going to stay at the current rate for a while
                          due to all the demand for electric cars and hybrids...

                          Then I also keep seeing stuff on hybrid lithium-ion ultra caps like this:
                          http://www.ioxus.com/

                          Which are moving in the right direction to provide the high current for
                          acceleration/regen, and the medium current to keep you moving down the road.

                          So I think, for now, I am just going to buy a set of Deka Dominator Gel
                          cells, and then re-evaluate the lithium-ion market in a few years...

                          So if anyone knows a good place to by some Deka Dominators, I am looking for
                          a place with a good price on them. ;D

                          Wolf
                          *wags his tail*
                          www.wolftonix.com

                          On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 5:21 PM, William Swann <william.swann2@...>wrote:

                          > The 300 Amp draw is a hard acceleration. A feel good test. As you know,
                          > there is a pot that limits the amps. I normally drive with it set at 150
                          > amps.
                          > Lately I have not seen much of a downward trend in the Li battery
                          > prices.[?]
                          >
                          > On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 5:09 PM, <theoldcars@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > How long are you pulling 300 amps? If you need 60 miles of range and with
                          > > loads of 300 amps I would go with at least 100 Ah cells. CALB I hear is
                          > > going to release a 70 Ah cell. Without doing any figures it seems to me
                          > > your
                          > > going to need 100 to 120 Ah cells. If you were running a higher voltage
                          > say
                          > >
                          > > 360 or so you could get by with a smaller cell.
                          > >
                          > > The CALB seem to go for around 135 dollars for a 100 Ah cell. That would
                          > > make your pack about 9500 dollars for the voltage your looking for.
                          > >
                          > > Don
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > In a message dated 1/23/2011 1:59:05 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                          > > william.swann2@... <william.swann2%40gmail.com> writes:
                          > >
                          > > Thanks for your thoughts. My application is an E-10, Vnom is 228, and
                          > when
                          > > I
                          > > punch it, I draw in excess of 300a. I did look at the Hipower
                          > > specification
                          > > sheet, and the 100ah cells are capable of 3C for 15 seconds. My driving
                          > > needs are 60 ish miles, but with 300 amps max. So, a good starting point
                          > is
                          > > to look at the C ratings of TS,Calb,Hipower. I just looked at TS-60, and
                          > > there are 2 ratings for discharge. Constant current 3CA, and Impulse
                          > > Current
                          > > of 20CA. I assume that the latter is for short durations. For Calb, it is
                          > > 10C.
                          > > I agree, It boils down to what you can afford.
                          > >
                          > > On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 3:20 PM, <theoldcars@...<theoldcars%
                          > 40aol.com>>
                          > > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > About 6 or 8 months ago HiPower released larger 100Ah cells. HiPower
                          > > > increased the size and weight but still rated them at 100Ah but their C
                          > > > rating
                          > > > was improved.
                          > > >
                          > > > There is many considerations when sizing the correct Ah cell for your
                          > > use.
                          > > > In the lower cost cells pushing the C rating is going to cause early
                          > > > failures. I assumed since this is a Solectria list that your usage
                          > would
                          > > be
                          > > > one
                          > > > with a higher voltage low amperage. However if you size the cells
                          > smaller
                          > > > your C rating does become a much larger factor.
                          > > >
                          > > > All data I have seen shows far greater cycle life when used at less
                          > then
                          > > > 1C. Also to not fully charge or discharge will vastly increase your
                          > cycle
                          > > > life.
                          > > >
                          > > > Its all comes down to how much money one has to spend and your daily
                          > > > needs. I found with a 100 miles of EV range is something I hardly ever
                          > > use.
                          > > > For
                          > > > someone else they might not be able to use an EV unless it has this
                          > type
                          > > of
                          > > >
                          > > > range.
                          > > >
                          > > > A large pack does give you the option of vastly increasing the cycle
                          > life
                          > > > and extended range. In higher quality LifePo4 calendar life becomes a
                          > > > greater concern then cycle life.
                          > > >
                          > > > The problem is none of these battery manufacturers are providing enough
                          > > > data for EV use. As Gene points out there is a lot of different forms
                          > and
                          > > > EVs
                          > > > trying out this chemistry. As an example motorcycles can be a very high
                          > C
                          > > > demand. If someone is using a DC motor and a high amp controller their
                          > > > going to quickly find out who has better cells. Sure they could get by
                          > > with
                          > > >
                          > > > less demand but most motorcycle riders are not going to drive like your
                          > > > typical EV driver. So cells that might fail for their loads could be
                          > > > useable for
                          > > > you.
                          > > >
                          > > > The problem with taking others results is their use actually known by
                          > the
                          > > > driver. I have seen graphs of loads while driving and even with high
                          > > > voltage
                          > > > packs the C loads can be very surprising high. Steep hills at high
                          > speeds
                          > > > require a serious amount of power.
                          > > >
                          > > > It would be best if your driving conditions were driven with an EV
                          > where
                          > > > you could see your loads. You could get a closer idea of what your
                          > > actual
                          > > > driving conditions are going to require. If your lucky and live in a
                          > > > totally
                          > > > flat area your EV load can be vastly less. I am in a very hilly area
                          > and
                          > > to
                          > > >
                          > > > drive like an ICE requires more power for 5 or 8 minutes then a 200 amp
                          > > > home service. Steep hills at freeway speeds are pack killers.
                          > > >
                          > > > Again of the low cost cells I would pick the CALB. I would strongly
                          > > > recommend you know your driving loads. If your in a cold area with a
                          > > > serious
                          > > > heater usage and lots of hills. Regardless of the brand I would buy as
                          > > > large a
                          > > > Ah cell as you could afford or that will fit.
                          > > >
                          > > > Don
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > In a message dated 1/23/2011 9:48:20 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                          > > > skeezmour@... <skeezmour%40yahoo.com> <skeezmour%40yahoo.com>
                          > > writes:
                          > > >
                          > > > We work with many batteries out there and at this time will not support
                          > > > the Hipower cells. This is based on previous testing that we have done
                          > as
                          > > > well as following customers experience with them on many of the fourms.
                          > > If
                          > > > we
                          > > > see that they have made changes to the cells we would revisit them but
                          > > for
                          > > > now I would consider them a no go.
                          > > >
                          > > > If you must use them please remember they are a very low C cell. I know
                          > > > many of the electric motorcycles and scooters have tried to use them
                          > due
                          > > to
                          > > >
                          > > > the low cost with mostly poor results. In a very gentle car application
                          > > you
                          > > >
                          > > > may be able to have reasonable results.
                          > > >
                          > > > As Dan says the CALB cells are fantastic and are only a very slight
                          > > > premium over TS (now Winston Battery). Best of luck out there.
                          > > >
                          > > > Gene
                          > > >
                          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > --
                          > > Thanks, Bill S
                          > > Ph 832-338-3080
                          > > www.watt-tracker.com
                          > > www.promotingevs.com
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --
                          > Thanks, Bill S
                          > Ph 832-338-3080
                          > www.watt-tracker.com
                          > www.promotingevs.com
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >


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