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Battery replacement

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  • jgrossm3
    My 95 Force has 34K + on the current set of pba s and I am concidering a swap to Lion. Several members of this group have made the switch recently to Thunder
    Message 1 of 5 , Sep 24, 2010
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      My 95 Force has 34K + on the current set of pba's and I am concidering a swap to Lion. Several members of this group have made the switch recently to Thunder Sky and I would like some feedback as to battery pack size on the replacement pack and driving range after the conversion. I am trying to decide between the 60ah cells and the 100ah cells and would like to know if the 60ah cells provide a greater range than the pba's and if so how much above 40 to 45 miles per charge.
      Jay h Grossman
    • dexion111
      I didnt use TS cells, I used powerforce blackhawk cells. I do however have 60ah TS cells in my cycle. I use 21 60ah cells in the bike and 48 100ah blackhawk
      Message 2 of 5 , Sep 25, 2010
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        I didnt use TS cells, I used powerforce blackhawk cells. I do however have 60ah TS cells in my cycle. I use 21 60ah cells in the bike and 48 100ah blackhawk cells in my force. In theory the nicer to your cells the longer they last. Nicer means pulling less out of them (demand rate or C rate) not over or under charging them, keeping them in the temp range they like. Temp range is easy they are easier to keep happy than LA batteries so everything the force does (heaters/fans) works fine.

        Over/under charge can be kept in check with a bms or manually. I was manual for over a year but its a bugger to keep checking and checking so I went with dimitri's minibms which is about 10 bucks a cell and 30 bucks for the head end when I got it (so a little over $500 bucks now I just plug in and forget.)

        That leaves what C rate you run the cells at. No one really knows how long they last yet but the specs for the TS (and my BH cells) are at a low C rate. Usually .3 C. So the ?000 cycle spec is at a low draw and a low rate charge. .3c for a 60ah cell is 18amps. .3 for the 100ah cell is 30amps. We use more than that accelerating in even extended range mode. But in normal with 100amps max that 1C for the 100 ah cells and 1.67C for the 60ah cells. In max power at 200amps thats 2c for the 100ah cells and 3.34C for the 60ah cells.

        So, if how they are treated on drawing out power (charging isnt really a problem since its very hard to even charge at 1C for 48 cells you would put in the car) the 100ah cells would last more cycles.

        The spec also mentions the further you take them down the less cycles you will get.

        So if you take the 60ah cells to 80% dod (traveling 50 miles at 1ah a mile or about the same range as the LA cells) you will get 3000 cycles not bad at all really but really no more range than the LA but many more cycles.

        The 100ah cells at 50% dod would be about 50 miles at 1ah a mile. So you have more cycles of the same drive (perhaps 6000 but no one really knows yet)

        I think 60's work fine (unless the cells get cold and you want to drive in max power mode) but are nearly the same range (which may not be a problem) as the LA cells. But, as nice as the force is to cells thats pushing them to the limits of their specs (which again may not be a problem but could be shorting the life of the cells.


        Lets talk about that. Shorting the life.

        The specs show x cycles to 80% of normal capacity they dont just stop working. Meaning a 60ah cell is now a 48 ah cell and a 100ah cell is now an 80ah cell. After this happens you may not be able to use the 60 ah cells any more (too little range/too little C to accelerate etc) but the 100 ah cells would still only be 80Ah and still usable (assuming 60ah cells would work for you when new) giving you more life.



        If you can afford the 100ah cells on paper it is the way to go. (they fit nicely as well in the battery compartments.)

        If you cant afford the 100ah cells 60ah will work and be a little more range than the LA cells but not for as long as the 100ah cells (and that could be years less perhaps but still more life/usefullness than the LA cells costing about the same.)

        But its all a crapshoot at this point. My TS cells are 3 years old and my BH cells are a year old now. Neither act any different than when new that I can tell.

        dex

        --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "jgrossm3" <jgrossm3@...> wrote:
        >
        > My 95 Force has 34K + on the current set of pba's and I am concidering a swap to Lion. Several members of this group have made the switch recently to Thunder Sky and I would like some feedback as to battery pack size on the replacement pack and driving range after the conversion. I am trying to decide between the 60ah cells and the 100ah cells and would like to know if the 60ah cells provide a greater range than the pba's and if so how much above 40 to 45 miles per charge.
        > Jay h Grossman
        >
      • Wolf Packs, Inc.
        Hi Jay, I ve been meaning to find out how far mine will go with the 48 100Ah Tundersky s. I ve been going really easy on them for 2,500 miles so far. I
        Message 3 of 5 , Sep 25, 2010
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          Hi Jay,

          I've been meaning to find out how far mine will go with the 48 100Ah
          Tundersky's. I've been going really easy on them for 2,500 miles so
          far. I routinely run the stock Solectria dash meter to 40 or 50 Ahs
          drawing continuous 110 to 140 amps climbing a long hill in Normal
          mode. The cells show plenty of volts remaining at the end of the
          drive. I have the minimum voltage alarm set to go off on my BMS at
          2.71 volts even though they should be okay down to around 2.50v. I
          occasionally see a low around 2.80v on the BMS meter but that's as low
          as I've had it. At this point I would not hesitate to run this car to
          60 or 70 Ahs on the dash meter, especially if I could keep the draw
          down to around 100 amps. At a low amp draw it might go 90Ahs or more,
          but that's just a guess.

          I'll have to call in sick sometime soon and make a distance run.
          Sounds like fun.

          Paul Martin
          1997 Force
          Ashland, Oregon

          Photos and some info at:

          http://traildog.blogspot.com/


          > My 95 Force has 34K + on the current set of pba's and I am
          > concidering a swap to Lion. Several members of this group have made
          > the switch recently to Thunder Sky and I would like some feedback as
          > to battery pack size on the replacement pack and driving range after
          > the conversion. I am trying to decide between the 60ah cells and the
          > 100ah cells and would like to know if the 60ah cells provide a
          > greater range than the pba's and if so how much above 40 to 45 miles
          > per charge.
          > Jay h Grossman


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • dexion111
          Jay, I wrote a big long professor science reply to this 2 days ago and it just aparently went poof and is gone. Ill gloss over the high points. 60ah cells
          Message 4 of 5 , Sep 26, 2010
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            Jay,

            I wrote a big long professor science reply to this 2 days ago and it just aparently went poof and is gone. Ill gloss over the high points.

            60ah cells would give you about the same range as new gels would. Roughly 45ah or so (but you should use less energy per mile due to lower weight.)

            The 45ah however (assuming ballanced cells) is for much longer. 1000's of cycles if you keep them happy.

            happy= lower discharge rates/never over 4ish volts and never under 2.5ish volts (ala some sort of bms (i use a minibms which is cheap but seems to be have taken every factor into account. I was manually checking the cells but that got very tedious.)

            The problem with the 60ah cells is draw. You would take over 3c from the cell in full power mode. The x000 cycles spec is at about .3 C. No one really knows how long they will last yet but thats 10 times the spec number (the 3c to accelerate.)


            However with 100ah cells you have 80ah to play with and still lower weight (by about 450lbs) and much lower draw. In normal you max at 1C and in power you max at 2C. Still above the spec of .3c but you are taking less from the cell (ie 45 ah is only 45% of the cell no 80% like in the 60ah) so they should last much longer on paper.


            Addidionally as the cells age you get less storage. So say at the point
            the 60ah cell is ay only 48ah they may not be usable for you (39ah usable.) But, the 100ah cells are still at 80ah so should be usable (assuming 45ah was ok for you to start with.)

            The upshot is if you can afford the 100ah cells and you treat them correctly they should be usable longer than the 60ah cells. But, the 60 ah cells will work better than the gels (longer) cost about the same but be more stressed and range is about the same as new gels.

            With the 100ah cells you can run the heat or ac and still drive further than the gels or the 60ah cells normally.
            dex

            --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "jgrossm3" <jgrossm3@...> wrote:
            >
            > My 95 Force has 34K + on the current set of pba's and I am concidering a swap to Lion. Several members of this group have made the switch recently to Thunder Sky and I would like some feedback as to battery pack size on the replacement pack and driving range after the conversion. I am trying to decide between the 60ah cells and the 100ah cells and would like to know if the 60ah cells provide a greater range than the pba's and if so how much above 40 to 45 miles per charge.
            > Jay h Grossman
            >
          • dexion111
            Ah there it is. better late than never. I wonder where it was for the past 7 days(my reply.)
            Message 5 of 5 , Oct 2, 2010
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              Ah there it is. better late than never. I wonder where it was for the past 7 days(my reply.)
              --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "dexion111" <dexion111@...> wrote:
              >
              > I didnt use TS cells, I used powerforce blackhawk cells. I do however have 60ah TS cells in my cycle. I use 21 60ah cells in the bike and 48 100ah blackhawk cells in my force. In theory the nicer to your cells the longer they last. Nicer means pulling less out of them (demand rate or C rate) not over or under charging them, keeping them in the temp range they like. Temp range is easy they are easier to keep happy than LA batteries so everything the force does (heaters/fans) works fine.
              >
              > Over/under charge can be kept in check with a bms or manually. I was manual for over a year but its a bugger to keep checking and checking so I went with dimitri's minibms which is about 10 bucks a cell and 30 bucks for the head end when I got it (so a little over $500 bucks now I just plug in and forget.)
              >
              > That leaves what C rate you run the cells at. No one really knows how long they last yet but the specs for the TS (and my BH cells) are at a low C rate. Usually .3 C. So the ?000 cycle spec is at a low draw and a low rate charge. .3c for a 60ah cell is 18amps. .3 for the 100ah cell is 30amps. We use more than that accelerating in even extended range mode. But in normal with 100amps max that 1C for the 100 ah cells and 1.67C for the 60ah cells. In max power at 200amps thats 2c for the 100ah cells and 3.34C for the 60ah cells.
              >
              > So, if how they are treated on drawing out power (charging isnt really a problem since its very hard to even charge at 1C for 48 cells you would put in the car) the 100ah cells would last more cycles.
              >
              > The spec also mentions the further you take them down the less cycles you will get.
              >
              > So if you take the 60ah cells to 80% dod (traveling 50 miles at 1ah a mile or about the same range as the LA cells) you will get 3000 cycles not bad at all really but really no more range than the LA but many more cycles.
              >
              > The 100ah cells at 50% dod would be about 50 miles at 1ah a mile. So you have more cycles of the same drive (perhaps 6000 but no one really knows yet)
              >
              > I think 60's work fine (unless the cells get cold and you want to drive in max power mode) but are nearly the same range (which may not be a problem) as the LA cells. But, as nice as the force is to cells thats pushing them to the limits of their specs (which again may not be a problem but could be shorting the life of the cells.
              >
              >
              > Lets talk about that. Shorting the life.
              >
              > The specs show x cycles to 80% of normal capacity they dont just stop working. Meaning a 60ah cell is now a 48 ah cell and a 100ah cell is now an 80ah cell. After this happens you may not be able to use the 60 ah cells any more (too little range/too little C to accelerate etc) but the 100 ah cells would still only be 80Ah and still usable (assuming 60ah cells would work for you when new) giving you more life.
              >
              >
              >
              > If you can afford the 100ah cells on paper it is the way to go. (they fit nicely as well in the battery compartments.)
              >
              > If you cant afford the 100ah cells 60ah will work and be a little more range than the LA cells but not for as long as the 100ah cells (and that could be years less perhaps but still more life/usefullness than the LA cells costing about the same.)
              >
              > But its all a crapshoot at this point. My TS cells are 3 years old and my BH cells are a year old now. Neither act any different than when new that I can tell.
              >
              > dex
              >
              > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "jgrossm3" <jgrossm3@> wrote:
              > >
              > > My 95 Force has 34K + on the current set of pba's and I am concidering a swap to Lion. Several members of this group have made the switch recently to Thunder Sky and I would like some feedback as to battery pack size on the replacement pack and driving range after the conversion. I am trying to decide between the 60ah cells and the 100ah cells and would like to know if the 60ah cells provide a greater range than the pba's and if so how much above 40 to 45 miles per charge.
              > > Jay h Grossman
              > >
              >
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