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Re: Battery box size and converting to LiFePO4

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  • GeorgeB
    ... Paul, I have been looking at the batteries supplied by EVE Motors.
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 1, 2009
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      --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Wolf Packs, Inc." <traildog@...> wrote:
      >
      > I'm looking at how much Lithium I can fit into the stock battery boxes
      > on my '97 Force. Using Thundersky as an example, 48 of the 100AH cells
      > will fit with room to spare so I could add a few more cells and raise
      > the voltage a bit.
      > Paul Martin
      > Ashland, Oregon
      > '97 Force
      >

      Paul,

      I have been looking at the batteries supplied by EVE Motors.
      http://store03.prostores.com/servlet/evemotorsyoureectriccarsupplystore/the-Batteries/Categories

      I wrote some of my questions... much like yours... to Jungle Motors and got a nice reply. He seemed confident that the LiFePO4 batteries would supply nearly twice the Ahr as lead, and of course with half the weight. He saw no problem with my Zivan charger. I got the impression he knew about the Solectria.

      http://shop.junglemotors.com/category.sc;jsessionid=407A32090FBBF6C760C82B8E12D7FA2C.qscstrfrnt03?categoryId=2


      I will be watching this thread as our pack is beginning to show age and we want to go to LiFePO4
    • Collin Kidder
      The prices listed at those two links aren t too bad. Those look like Thundersky batteries and you can usually get that sort of battery for around $2.25 - $3.00
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 1, 2009
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        The prices listed at those two links aren't too bad. Those look like
        Thundersky batteries and you can usually get that sort of battery for
        around $2.25 - $3.00 a KW/h which your links are within.

        Keep in mind too that lithium batteries require BMS (battery management
        systems) and that's not included in the price per battery. Depending on
        what you go with it could add $250 - 1000 more to the price of the pack.

        I don't think that there is any inherent problem with using a Zivan
        charger but the charge profile for LiFePo4 *is* different than for
        gelled lead acid so it's really best to get the zivan reprogrammed with
        the proper charging profile. I'm not sure if it would hurt the pack or
        not in the long run. But, why would anyone want to risk ruining a
        $10,000 battery pack? Lithium batteries have a very different voltage to
        SOC curve compared to lead acid and I would not trust a lead acid
        charger to have any idea as to the current state of charge of a lithium
        pack.

        If you weren't going to stay with the zivan charger (though I see no
        reason not to if you reprogram it) then I've been told it's better to
        charge the lithium pack with more chargers at lower voltages to make
        over charging less of a concern.

        On 10/1/2009 9:38 AM, GeorgeB wrote:
        >
        >
        > Paul,
        >
        > I have been looking at the batteries supplied by EVE Motors.
        > http://store03.prostores.com/servlet/evemotorsyoureectriccarsupplystore/the-Batteries/Categories
        > <http://store03.prostores.com/servlet/evemotorsyoureectriccarsupplystore/the-Batteries/Categories>
        >
        > I wrote some of my questions... much like yours... to Jungle Motors
        > and got a nice reply. He seemed confident that the LiFePO4 batteries
        > would supply nearly twice the Ahr as lead, and of course with half the
        > weight. He saw no problem with my Zivan charger. I got the impression
        > he knew about the Solectria.
        >
        > http://shop.junglemotors.com/category.sc;jsessionid=407A32090FBBF6C760C82B8E12D7FA2C.qscstrfrnt03?categoryId=2
        > <http://shop.junglemotors.com/category.sc;jsessionid=407A32090FBBF6C760C82B8E12D7FA2C.qscstrfrnt03?categoryId=2>
        >
        > I will be watching this thread as our pack is beginning to show age
        > and we want to go to LiFePO4
        >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Collin Kidder
        Oops... I should proofread... $2.25 to $3.00 is what you should get if you divide the number of watt hours by the price. It s more like $400-500 a KW/h... ...
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 1, 2009
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          Oops... I should proofread... $2.25 to $3.00 is what you should get if
          you divide the number of watt hours by the price. It's more like
          $400-500 a KW/h...

          On 10/1/2009 10:09 AM, Collin Kidder wrote:
          >
          > The prices listed at those two links aren't too bad. Those look like
          > Thundersky batteries and you can usually get that sort of battery for
          > around $2.25 - $3.00 a KW/h which your links are within.
          >
          > .
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Stephen Taylor
          I think there are at least three of us with NiCD Forces on this list.  I have at least 3 questions here.   1) I am also having some trouble with my AH
          Message 4 of 10 , Oct 16, 2009
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            I think there are at least three of us with NiCD Forces on this list.  I have at least 3 questions here.
             
            1) I am also having some trouble with my AH counter.  Every so often it seems to run backwards when it should be going forward during acceleration and forward when it should be going backward during regen.  Up until yesterday it didn't seem to be a big problem, because it didn't effect the total AH count greatly, but yesterday I drove 17.7 miles and the charger only bulk charged 16.1 AHs when it probably should have done closer to 20AHs.  Before anyone unfamiliar with the NiCD cars suggests that the AH counter and charger aren't interconnected, let me say that in the NiCD car unlike the lead acid car, the 2 are interconnected.  The NiCD charger keeps track of AHs used and will only bulk charge back what was taken out.  Since the NiCD NLG4 charger uses the same shunt as the AH counter and seems to be counting  those "wrong way" readings that I see on the AH counter the same, the end result is that the batteries aren't getting fully charged. 
            Indeed, I am not getting regen squeal on a "full' Charge like I always got before.

            2) Maybe or maybe not tied to the same issues as number 2, but every so often my AH guage has been resetting to 0 while driving.  To be more specific, it only resets once in a while (maybe during one out of 10 drives) and when it does it only resets when I'm at very low speed and almost always when starting from a dead stop.  Intersestingly, unlike the backward AH reading above, this event doesn't appear to effect the charger's AH reading.  I've used Monlog to check the numbers.   In many cases, the resetting occurs when the car starts moving with a slight jerk instead of smoothly.  I guess this might point to the speed sensor having a hand in the problem since my feeling is that the jerk occurs when the car seems to be going backwards slightly before it decides to move forward.
             
            3) I was wondering if anyone knew what the controller setting differences are between the lead acid Force and the NiCD Force.  I have a spare AMC325 originally programmed for the lead acid batteries and was wondering how compatible it is with my NiCD equiped car.   I doubt it will help any with the above 2 problems, but I was thinking of using it in my NiCD car, in place of the original controller, to see if any of the problems magically disappeared with a different controller.
             
            Stephen Taylor
             
             
















            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Charles Bliss
            The AH meters will reset if the voltage on input pins 1 & 2 drop to zero for a short period of time, perhaps more than a second. If the time isn t really
            Message 5 of 10 , Oct 16, 2009
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              The AH meters will reset if the voltage on input pins 1 & 2 drop to zero for
              a short period of time, perhaps more than a second. If the time isn't
              really short, the number will not set to zero but might be close. It sounds
              like a loose connection.



              Someone, previously indicated that the NLG4 is physically different between
              the NiCd and the Pb batteries.



              From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com [mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf Of Stephen Taylor
              Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 10:37 AM
              To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [solectria_ev] AH counter and NiCD Force issues





              I think there are at least three of us with NiCD Forces on this list. I
              have at least 3 questions here.

              1) I am also having some trouble with my AH counter. Every so often it
              seems to run backwards when it should be going forward during acceleration
              and forward when it should be going backward during regen. Up until
              yesterday it didn't seem to be a big problem, because it didn't effect the
              total AH count greatly, but yesterday I drove 17.7 miles and the charger
              only bulk charged 16.1 AHs when it probably should have done closer to
              20AHs. Before anyone unfamiliar with the NiCD cars suggests that the AH
              counter and charger aren't interconnected, let me say that in the NiCD car
              unlike the lead acid car, the 2 are interconnected. The NiCD charger keeps
              track of AHs used and will only bulk charge back what was taken out. Since
              the NiCD NLG4 charger uses the same shunt as the AH counter and seems to be
              counting those "wrong way" readings that I see on the AH counter the same,
              the end result is that the batteries aren't getting fully charged.
              Indeed, I am not getting regen squeal on a "full' Charge like I always got
              before.

              2) Maybe or maybe not tied to the same issues as number 2, but every so
              often my AH guage has been resetting to 0 while driving. To be more
              specific, it only resets once in a while (maybe during one out of 10 drives)
              and when it does it only resets when I'm at very low speed and almost always
              when starting from a dead stop. Intersestingly, unlike the backward AH
              reading above, this event doesn't appear to effect the charger's AH reading.
              I've used Monlog to check the numbers. In many cases, the resetting occurs
              when the car starts moving with a slight jerk instead of smoothly. I guess
              this might point to the speed sensor having a hand in the problem since my
              feeling is that the jerk occurs when the car seems to be going backwards
              slightly before it decides to move forward.

              3) I was wondering if anyone knew what the controller setting differences
              are between the lead acid Force and the NiCD Force. I have a spare AMC325
              originally programmed for the lead acid batteries and was wondering how
              compatible it is with my NiCD equiped car. I doubt it will help any with
              the above 2 problems, but I was thinking of using it in my NiCD car, in
              place of the original controller, to see if any of the problems magically
              disappeared with a different controller.

              Stephen Taylor







              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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