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Re: [force_ev] Advice on buying?

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  • David Roden (Akron OH USA)
    Well, to put this in perspective, your commute is so short that you could let the pack depreciate quite a bit before you reached the gotta replace it now
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 31, 2000
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      Well, to put this in perspective, your commute is so short that you could
      let the pack depreciate quite a bit before you reached the "gotta replace
      it now" stage.

      Heat (over 120 deg F) does shorten lead battery life, but it also
      increases capacity, so your daily commute uses an even smaller proportion
      of the battery's stored energy. This ameliorates the problem slightly.

      At a 14 mile daily round trip (say you detour to the grocery store on the
      way home, so it's typically 15-20 miles), you'll be discharging less than
      50% daily. All batteries, especially lead, really like that kind of use.

      You don't need the greater capacity of advanced batteries anyway, but
      you should probably stay away from the NiMH and Nicad batteries. They
      aren't affected by cold, but they ~hate~ heat. Last I heard, GM wouldn't
      sell -- oops, lease -- the NiMH EV-1 in Phoenix because the pack couldn't
      handle the temperatures, even though they pipe some of the air
      conditioning to the battery pack.

      Speaking of which, I can't speak for the owners of newer cars, but my
      creaky old '91's air conditioner works fairly well -- it's not as chilly
      as the one in my gas car (Honda Civic), but it seems to keep the car
      comfortable at 95+ deg F outside. It's essentially the Geo Metro air
      conditioner, separately driven with a dedicated motor. So if a Geo Metro
      is cool enough for you, the Force should be too (unless Solectria has
      changed the a/c design).

      I also recommend some kind of tinted or dichroic film on the windows
      where the law permits, and I agree 100% with the recommendation of buying
      a white car. These will help keep the a/c energy use down.

      In my car, the a/c draws 7 amps from the pack in operation, so it
      subtracts maybe 10-15% from my range. Not that big a deal. But it's
      bloody noisy!


      David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
      1991 Solectria Force 144vac
      1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
      1979 General Engines ElectroPed 24vdc
      1974 Honda Civic EV 96vdc
      1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
      = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
      NOTE: If you receive an email which exhorts you to "Send
      this to everyone you know," you don't know me.
      = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
    • Craig Childers
      Beware- there is a Solectria dealer in Arizona that s selling the same Force model for $10k more than they go for in California. I m sure It s Electric
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 1, 2000
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        Beware- there is a Solectria dealer in Arizona that's selling the same
        Force model for $10k more than they go for in California. I'm sure It's
        Electric (Dealer in Marin) would be happy to deliver one to Arizona for
        less than $10,000.



        At 07:34 PM 7/31/00 +0000, you wrote:
        >Hello all, I hope you don't mind my interloping here...
        >
        >My wife is looking for a vehicle to make the 7 mile commute to work,
        >average 45 mph and stopping every mile at the major roads here in
        >Phoenix. We like the idea of a ZEV and with the state grants
        >available it seems that it would be cheap, too!
        >
        >We have a few concerns, though. First, how will the batteries hold
        >up here in the Valley of the Sun? In a message in this group someone
        >suggested that the batteries are heat sensitive. In the height of
        >summer the car will be sitting in 115 degree heat during the day (no
        >covered parking), and even in the garage there will be many nights
        >when it will not get below 90 degrees. Of course, our lead acid car
        >batteries seem to do fine, but perhaps the usage is different enough
        >to cause a problem.
        >
        >If we do have to replace the batteries, how much will they cost? We
        >have to budget this out as a regular expenditure for the car and
        >balance it against other savings, etc...
        >
        >There aren't many charging stations around just now - can we bring an
        >extension cord and beg a few watts when it gets low? Could we get
        >any boost in range by installing solar panels? Sun is one thing we
        >have in abundance!
        >
        >How well does the air conditioning work? Decent A/C is mandatory
        >here!
        >
        >Thanks for any help with these... I hope to join your ranks soon!
        > -Doug Patton
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        >force_ev-unsubscribe@egroups.com
        >
        >
      • Bill Passman
        I kind of like the sweet sound of the Geo s A/C. I also find that it keeps things cool. Everyone on this list should know that range is improved by keeping
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 1, 2000
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          I kind of like the sweet sound of the Geo's A/C. I also find that it keeps
          things cool.
          Everyone on this list should know that range is improved by keeping the
          windows up at all temperatures and using the fan or A/C. Aerodynamics are
          a much larger influence on range than A/C electrical usage. Although I
          often lower the windows when stopped.

          BTW, JC Whitney sells a solar powered exhaust fan, which you close in the
          window. I find it does a great job at keeping the interior at ambient
          temperatures.

          At 11:05 PM 7/31/00 -0400, you wrote:
          >Well, to put this in perspective, your commute is so short that you could
          >let the pack depreciate quite a bit before you reached the "gotta replace
          >it now" stage.
          >
          >Heat (over 120 deg F) does shorten lead battery life, but it also
          >increases capacity, so your daily commute uses an even smaller proportion
          >of the battery's stored energy. This ameliorates the problem slightly.
          >
          >At a 14 mile daily round trip (say you detour to the grocery store on the
          >way home, so it's typically 15-20 miles), you'll be discharging less than
          >50% daily. All batteries, especially lead, really like that kind of use.
          >
          >You don't need the greater capacity of advanced batteries anyway, but
          >you should probably stay away from the NiMH and Nicad batteries. They
          >aren't affected by cold, but they ~hate~ heat. Last I heard, GM wouldn't
          >sell -- oops, lease -- the NiMH EV-1 in Phoenix because the pack couldn't
          >handle the temperatures, even though they pipe some of the air
          >conditioning to the battery pack.
          >
          >Speaking of which, I can't speak for the owners of newer cars, but my
          >creaky old '91's air conditioner works fairly well -- it's not as chilly
          >as the one in my gas car (Honda Civic), but it seems to keep the car
          >comfortable at 95+ deg F outside. It's essentially the Geo Metro air
          >conditioner, separately driven with a dedicated motor. So if a Geo Metro
          >is cool enough for you, the Force should be too (unless Solectria has
          >changed the a/c design).
          >
          >I also recommend some kind of tinted or dichroic film on the windows
          >where the law permits, and I agree 100% with the recommendation of buying
          >a white car. These will help keep the a/c energy use down.
          >
          >In my car, the a/c draws 7 amps from the pack in operation, so it
          >subtracts maybe 10-15% from my range. Not that big a deal. But it's
          >bloody noisy!
          >
          >
          >David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
          >1991 Solectria Force 144vac
          >1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
          >1979 General Engines ElectroPed 24vdc
          >1974 Honda Civic EV 96vdc
          >1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
          >= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
          >NOTE: If you receive an email which exhorts you to "Send
          >this to everyone you know," you don't know me.
          >= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
          >
          >
          >
          >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          >force_ev-unsubscribe@egroups.com

          -----------------------------------------------------------
          Bill Passman, Quarry Technologies 781.505.8300 x329
          8 New England Executive Park, Burlington, MA 01803
        • Tom Hudson
          ... Absolutely right, Bill. Great point. This seemed totally counter-intuitive to me at first -- I thought the A/C on my Honda had to use more gas than
          Message 4 of 8 , Aug 1, 2000
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            > Everyone on this list should know that range is improved by keeping the
            > windows up at all temperatures and using the fan or A/C.
            > Aerodynamics are
            > a much larger influence on range than A/C electrical usage. Although I
            > often lower the windows when stopped.

            Absolutely right, Bill. Great point. This seemed totally counter-intuitive
            to me at first -- I thought the A/C on my Honda had to use more gas than
            leaving the windows down, so I tried two identical trips on the highway, one
            with A/C & windows up, and one without A/C and windows down. The
            difference was surprising. The drag caused by the turbulence is
            substantial.

            As a result, when I did my 300-mile trip last summer in the Force
            (http://asterius.com/solectria/ho/amherst.htm), I did it with windows up,
            even though I don't have A/C. I got awesome amp-hour-per-mile efficiency.

            -Tom

            Thomas Hudson
            http://asterius.com/solectria/ho -- Our Electric Vehicles
            http://asterius.com/solectria/ho/pvs.htm -- Solar Power
            http://asterius.com/solectria -- Solectria Owners Website
          • shaggy1995@myfavoritei.com
            Bill- Thanks for the info about the solar powered in the window fan. I ve been looking for one of these. I ll look for JC Whitney on the web. Also thanks to
            Message 5 of 8 , Aug 3, 2000
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              Bill-

              Thanks for the info about the solar powered in the window fan. I've been looking for one of these. I'll look for JC Whitney on the web.

              Also thanks to Tom for recommending "Charging Ahead. I just finished it and enjoyed it lots. I hope to visit Solectria around August 22, and the book provides interesting background. I've been talking to Jason Dunkley about the visit. This Force list has already given me much useful info. Thanks again to Bruce for setting it up and now to Karl for joining as well.

              -Peter Belden
              Palo Alto, CA
              '99 Force is the first and only car I've ever owned

              On Tue, 01 August 2000, Bill Passman wrote:
              > BTW, JC Whitney sells a solar powered exhaust fan, which you close in the
              > window. I find it does a great job at keeping the interior at ambient
              > temperatures.
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