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Intermittant Operation WONT GO AWAY

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  • theenergyguy2004
    Hi gang, Sorry for the ALL CAPS. I m losing it. I ve been trying this and trying that for (literally) two years in order to get my 96 Force running
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 22, 2008
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      Hi gang,

      Sorry for the ALL CAPS. I'm losing it. I've been "trying this and
      trying that" for (literally) two years in order to get my 96 Force
      running reliably. As posted before, she'll stop after +/-5 miles
      more often than not (uphill or downhill) but sometimes it won't go
      even when I first turn it on (it does the slow crawl). It'll cut out
      going downhill (losing regen) or uphill (losing power). Doesn't seem
      to be a function of heat.....

      Usually it'll go again after a brief (2-5 minute) rest but sometimes,
      if I jiggle the wires near the firewall on the passenger side, it'll
      go (don't know if this is actually doing anything or just giving it
      more rest time). The last time I drove it, it was cutting in and out
      constantly for the last few miles so IT IS NOW PARKED UNTIL I CAN
      FIGURE IT OUT!

      I've replaced the speed sensor wheel, the DB9 connectors, the bad
      connectors under the dash on the drivers side, and tried fiddling
      with the ignition.

      Maybe it's the POT box? If so, previous answers like "it's been
      posted here some time back" only frustrate me (it could take days to
      search thru all previous posts given there isn't a search function).
      Could whoever responded to the orig post please say again where a new
      POT box can be found? A recent answer to the cable question was
      helpful (a bicycle cable!).

      Could it be the DB25 connector causing my symptom?

      I live in Nevada City CAlif - anyone with a "driveway ornament" Force
      with a good controller out there I could try?

      Any suggestions appreciated!!!

      - Ray Darby
    • packratdaddy
      I ve been going through a bunch of bulletins I acquired with my car. I don t know if it ll help you but here it is. This originally was a Solectria FAX dated
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 22, 2008
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        I've been going through a bunch of bulletins I acquired with my car.
        I don't know if it'll help you but here it is.

        This originally was a Solectria FAX dated March / 2001
        -------------------------------------------------------------------

        Motor Speed Sensor Shield Braid Not Soldered
        Last Friday, two motor speed sensor plugs were opened for inspection
        at the customer site.

        On both,the shield braid was not soldered at all,but just left to
        press against the shell where the "wire nut" attaches the two halves
        of the connector.

        THIS IS A CURRENT CARRYING CONNECTION! IT MUST BE SOLDERED!

        If this connection is not reliable,vehicle jerking and shuddering will
        result. This will cause an over current fault and the controller will
        "cut out".

        I don't know how many plugs are like this in the field,but as they
        begin to deteriorate from corrosion, which they do,vehicle problems
        will start to appear. This is a serious error and a known problem !

        These plugs were not being spot checked or QC'd, because this error
        would be obvious immediately. It's both easy and necessary to take
        apart at least some of the batch to check the technique.

        ---------------------------------------------------------
        These were AC42 motors with old style speed sensors.
        ---------------------------------------------------------

        Please,lets help ourselves to keep quality high so problems don't
        happen! We can do it right if we just try ! Thank You !

        Signed -- anonymous -- Solectria

        END FAX

        ---------------------------------------------------------------

        I don't have any photos of this part. This may or may not be your
        issue. I've been wanting to get the info out here just in case.
      • Doug Jackson
        can you give some hint as to where this part is located and what it might look like? I am having intermittent jerking during regen problems. I have posted to
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 23, 2008
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          can you give some hint as to where this part is located and what it
          might look like?

          I am having intermittent jerking during regen problems. I have
          posted to this list a couple of times in the past about it. No
          solutions have been forthcoming. But I want to check this out. see
          subject "Regen shudder variation" posted 8/31

          Doug Jackson
          adjackson3.org


          On Apr 22, 2008, at 7:19 PM, packratdaddy wrote:

          >
          > I've been going through a bunch of bulletins I acquired with my car.
          > I don't know if it'll help you but here it is.
          >
          > This originally was a Solectria FAX dated March / 2001
          > ----------------------------------------------------------
          >
          > Motor Speed Sensor Shield Braid Not Soldered
          > Last Friday, two motor speed sensor plugs were opened for inspection
          > at the customer site.
          >
          > On both,the shield braid was not soldered at all,but just left to
          > press against the shell where the "wire nut" attaches the two halves
          > of the connector.
          >
          > THIS IS A CURRENT CARRYING CONNECTION! IT MUST BE SOLDERED!
          >
          > If this connection is not reliable,vehicle jerking and shuddering will
          > result. This will cause an over current fault and the controller will
          > "cut out".
          >
          > I don't know how many plugs are like this in the field,but as they
          > begin to deteriorate from corrosion, which they do,vehicle problems
          > will start to appear. This is a serious error and a known problem !
          >
          > These plugs were not being spot checked or QC'd, because this error
          > would be obvious immediately. It's both easy and necessary to take
          > apart at least some of the batch to check the technique.
          >
          > ---------------------------------------------------------
          > These were AC42 motors with old style speed sensors.
          > ---------------------------------------------------------
          >
          > Please,lets help ourselves to keep quality high so problems don't
          > happen! We can do it right if we just try ! Thank You !
          >
          > Signed -- anonymous -- Solectria
          >
          > END FAX
          >
          > ----------------------------------------------------------
          >
          > I don't have any photos of this part. This may or may not be your
          > issue. I've been wanting to get the info out here just in case.
          >
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • packratdaddy
          Hello, I checked out my car this morning. There s a wire that comes out of the left side of my motor. That is usually where the fan /cover is and the speed
          Message 4 of 13 , Apr 24, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Hello,

            I checked out my car this morning.
            There's a wire that comes out of the left side of my motor.
            That is usually where the fan /cover is and the speed sensor cover.
            I traced it to the "plug" connector. It looks like a 9 pin DIN.
            There is a "nut" that unscrews and reveals the 2 halves of the
            connector. Take notice of how it's assembled.
            In the fax they only mentioned the one motor model #.
            It's worth a look.

            Anyone in the group know the best way to clean off rust off connector
            pins ? Also oxidation cleaner ? And battery terminal cleaning
            techniques ? Basic wire spring cleaning ! :)
          • Wolf
            AMC320, 325 and 335 motor encoder cables don t use the shield wire as a current carrying conductor, its just a shield wire, it is just connected on the drive
            Message 5 of 13 , Apr 24, 2008
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              AMC320, 325 and 335 motor encoder cables don't use the shield wire as a
              current carrying conductor, its just a shield wire, it is just connected
              on the drive side to ground.

              Wolf
              *wags his tail*
              www.wolftronix.com

              >
              > Hello,
              >
              > I checked out my car this morning.
              > There's a wire that comes out of the left side of my motor.
              > That is usually where the fan /cover is and the speed sensor cover.
              > I traced it to the "plug" connector. It looks like a 9 pin DIN.
              > There is a "nut" that unscrews and reveals the 2 halves of the
              > connector. Take notice of how it's assembled.
              > In the fax they only mentioned the one motor model #.
              > It's worth a look.
              >
              > Anyone in the group know the best way to clean off rust off connector
              > pins ? Also oxidation cleaner ? And battery terminal cleaning
              > techniques ? Basic wire spring cleaning ! :)
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Gerard (Gary) Carlson
              For cleaning contacts on connectors, I have purchased Radio Shack s Control/Contact Cleaner & Lubricant (#64-4315).? My can is old, so I hope they still carry
              Message 6 of 13 , Apr 25, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                For cleaning contacts on connectors, I have purchased Radio Shack's Control/Contact Cleaner & Lubricant (#64-4315).? My can is old, so I hope they still carry it.

                Be careful of using an?abrasive material like emery paper, even 600 grit.? The gold plating on many connectors is literally millionths of an inch thick.? Also avoid steel wool or anything that can shed conductive fibers.? Scotch-Bright scrubbing pads might be useful.

                After cleaning the connector halves, unplugging and reseating the connectors a few times might also be worth a try.

                Good Luck,

                Gary Carlson
                1992 Solectria Force
                gjc0@...


                -----Original Message-----
                From: packratdaddy <packratdaddy@...>
                To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 7:00 am
                Subject: [solectria_ev] Re: Intermittent Operation Possible Solution ???







                Hello,

                I checked out my car this morning.
                There's a wire that comes out of the left side of my motor.
                That is usually where the fan /cover is and the speed sensor cover.
                I traced it to the "plug" connector. It looks like a 9 pin DIN.
                There is a "nut" that unscrews and reveals the 2 halves of the
                connector. Take notice of how it's assembled.
                In the fax they only mentioned the one motor model #.
                It's worth a look.

                Anyone in the group know the best way to clean off rust off connector
                pins ? Also oxidation cleaner ? And battery terminal cleaning
                techniques ? Basic wire spring cleaning ! :)






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Gordon Stallings
                In 2001, Solectria Corp. sent out a service advisory concerning contact corrosion. I have the entire bulletin, but here are the basics: Silicone dielectric
                Message 7 of 13 , Apr 25, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  In 2001, Solectria Corp. sent out a service advisory concerning
                  contact corrosion. I have the entire bulletin, but here are the basics:

                  "Silicone dielectric grease should be applied to all non-waterproof,
                  non-sealed high-voltage and 12V connectors approximately once a year.
                  When installing replacement components, apply silicone dielectric
                  grease to the connectors as needed. Identify and visually inspect
                  each of the connectors. If the connector is damaged, i.e., cracked,
                  broken, or corroded, call Solectria for replacement parts. If the
                  connector and pins are in sound condition, apply grease to the pins
                  and fill both halves of the connector from the back with a liberal
                  amount of silicone dielectric grease. DO NOT USE CONDUCTIVE
                  APPLICATORS OR YOUR FINGERS BECAUSE THESE PARTS ARE HIGH VOLTAGE! DO
                  USE A TONGUE DEPRESSOR OR CLEAN POPSICLE STICK. ALWAYS WEAR RUBBER
                  HIGH VOLTAGE INSULATING GLOVES."

                  Because Solectria is pretty well out of the replacement parts
                  business, you can probably locate replacement connectors at DigiKey or
                  other electronic parts suppliers. The grease I found is SL-4 from
                  Standard Corp.

                  If it would be useful, I could load an image of the bulletin's three
                  pages into the documents section of the Solectria_ev group.

                  --Gordon Stallings--

                  On Apr 25, 2008, at 3:00 PM, Gerard (Gary) Carlson wrote:
                  > For cleaning contacts on connectors, I have purchased Radio Shack's
                  > Control/Contact Cleaner & Lubricant (#64-4315).? My can is old, so I
                  > hope they still carry it.
                  >
                  > Be careful of using an?abrasive material like emery paper, even 600
                  > grit.? The gold plating on many connectors is literally millionths
                  > of an inch thick.? Also avoid steel wool or anything that can shed
                  > conductive fibers.? Scotch-Bright scrubbing pads might be useful.
                  >
                  > After cleaning the connector halves, unplugging and reseating the
                  > connectors a few times might also be worth a try.
                  >
                  > Good Luck,
                  >
                  > Gary Carlson
                  > 1992 Solectria Force
                  > gjc0@...
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: packratdaddy <packratdaddy@...>
                  > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 7:00 am
                  > Subject: [solectria_ev] Re: Intermittent Operation Possible
                  > Solution ???
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Hello,
                  >
                  > I checked out my car this morning.
                  > There's a wire that comes out of the left side of my motor.
                  > That is usually where the fan /cover is and the speed sensor cover.
                  > I traced it to the "plug" connector. It looks like a 9 pin DIN.
                  > There is a "nut" that unscrews and reveals the 2 halves of the
                  > connector. Take notice of how it's assembled.
                  > In the fax they only mentioned the one motor model #.
                  > It's worth a look.
                  >
                  > Anyone in the group know the best way to clean off rust off connector
                  > pins ? Also oxidation cleaner ? And battery terminal cleaning
                  > techniques ? Basic wire spring cleaning ! :)
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Peter Fletcher
                  please e-mail fletchfilms@hotmail.com I live in Reno and am coming to Nevada City around May 4th. I would like to come check out your force trade imfo ETC....
                  Message 8 of 13 , Apr 26, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    please e-mail fletchfilms@...
                    I live in Reno and am coming to Nevada City around May 4th. I would like to come check out your force
                    trade imfo ETC.... thanx Fletch93




                    ________________________________

                    To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                    From: raydarby@...
                    Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 00:57:31 +0000
                    Subject: [solectria_ev] Intermittant Operation WONT GO AWAY







                    Hi gang,

                    Sorry for the ALL CAPS. I'm losing it. I've been "trying this and
                    trying that" for (literally) two years in order to get my 96 Force
                    running reliably. As posted before, she'll stop after +/-5 miles
                    more often than not (uphill or downhill) but sometimes it won't go
                    even when I first turn it on (it does the slow crawl). It'll cut out
                    going downhill (losing regen) or uphill (losing power). Doesn't seem
                    to be a function of heat.....

                    Usually it'll go again after a brief (2-5 minute) rest but sometimes,
                    if I jiggle the wires near the firewall on the passenger side, it'll
                    go (don't know if this is actually doing anything or just giving it
                    more rest time). The last time I drove it, it was cutting in and out
                    constantly for the last few miles so IT IS NOW PARKED UNTIL I CAN
                    FIGURE IT OUT!

                    I've replaced the speed sensor wheel, the DB9 connectors, the bad
                    connectors under the dash on the drivers side, and tried fiddling
                    with the ignition.

                    Maybe it's the POT box? If so, previous answers like "it's been
                    posted here some time back" only frustrate me (it could take days to
                    search thru all previous posts given there isn't a search function).
                    Could whoever responded to the orig post please say again where a new
                    POT box can be found? A recent answer to the cable question was
                    helpful (a bicycle cable!).

                    Could it be the DB25 connector causing my symptom?

                    I live in Nevada City CAlif - anyone with a "driveway ornament" Force
                    with a good controller out there I could try?

                    Any suggestions appreciated!!!

                    - Ray Darby









                    _________________________________________________________________
                    Make i'm yours.  Create a custom banner to support your cause.
                    http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Contribute/Default.aspx?source=TXT_TAGHM_MSN_Make_IM_Yours
                  • Peter Fletcher
                    My Force has 10 optima a 12 volt and 2 AC Delco s 12 Volt After running my car about 60miles total now. not all at once of course. 2-3 of the Optima s are
                    Message 9 of 13 , Apr 27, 2008
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                      My Force has 10 optima'a 12 volt and 2 AC Delco's 12 Volt
                      After running my car about 60miles total now. not all at once of course.
                      2-3 of the Optima's are showing 12volts + almost 12.5 and 12.7 when charged yet when I put a load tester on those
                      bats the volt reading is more like 8 or 9 volts. So I'm sure I have 2 bats that are holding down the whole pack.
                      1st of all I might do nothing in the next month or two because I might sell the car on e-bay in the next month and
                      start on my next ev or....
                      Question if I did replace 2 of the bats should I just buy some Cheep 12 volt bats Deep cycle Walmat brand
                      for 60 pr 70 $ or spend the extra $ and by two new Optima's . My understanding is that scence it is a used
                      bat pack with mixed matched used battaries spending nearly $300 for 2 new optima's will just be a waist of $
                      because the pack will be off ballanced any way with 10 old bats and 2 new ones.
                      my idea if I want to drive my EV with out limping home every other day is to just get the cheep
                      12 deep cycle walmart brand bats and Let the Next Owner buy a whole new balanced pack.
                      Thoughts and Idea's Welcome! Fletch 93 Force with Magnet motor and Notch Belt.














                      _________________________________________________________________
                      Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill meets World Series. Get in the game.
                      http://club.live.com/word_slugger.aspx?icid=word_slugger_wlhm_admod_april08
                    • ldr214
                      Are they size group 27 s? Send me a note via email my wife wants me to get rid of some of these used batteries next to our house. Mike ... charged yet when I
                      Message 10 of 13 , Apr 28, 2008
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                        Are they size group 27's?
                        Send me a note via email my wife wants me to get rid of some of these
                        used batteries next to our house.

                        Mike

                        --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Peter Fletcher <fletchfilms@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > My Force has 10 optima'a 12 volt and 2 AC Delco's 12 Volt
                        > After running my car about 60miles total now. not all at once of course.
                        > 2-3 of the Optima's are showing 12volts + almost 12.5 and 12.7 when
                        charged yet when I put a load tester on those
                        > bats the volt reading is more like 8 or 9 volts. So I'm sure I have
                        2 bats that are holding down the whole pack.
                        > 1st of all I might do nothing in the next month or two because I
                        might sell the car on e-bay in the next month and
                        > start on my next ev or....
                        > Question if I did replace 2 of the bats should I just buy some Cheep
                        12 volt bats Deep cycle Walmat brand
                        > for 60 pr 70 $ or spend the extra $ and by two new Optima's . My
                        understanding is that scence it is a used
                        > bat pack with mixed matched used battaries spending nearly $300 for
                        2 new optima's will just be a waist of $
                        > because the pack will be off ballanced any way with 10 old bats and
                        2 new ones.
                        > my idea if I want to drive my EV with out limping home every other
                        day is to just get the cheep
                        > 12 deep cycle walmart brand bats and Let the Next Owner buy a whole
                        new balanced pack.
                        > Thoughts and Idea's Welcome! Fletch 93 Force with Magnet motor and
                        Notch Belt.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > _________________________________________________________________
                        > Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill meets World Series.
                        Get in the game.
                        >
                        http://club.live.com/word_slugger.aspx?icid=word_slugger_wlhm_admod_april08
                        >
                      • ehsif727
                        A mix of batteries will never charge correctly when using your string charger. This charger charges the batteries in a series circuit and will only work if
                        Message 11 of 13 , Apr 30, 2008
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                          A mix of batteries will never charge correctly when using your string
                          charger. This charger charges the batteries in a series circuit and
                          will only work if the batteries are the same batteries with the same
                          resistance. If batteries are not the same, some batteries will charge
                          and some will not. You can charge the batteries individually and
                          should be able to get the batteries full. The string charger will
                          never charge a mixed set of batteries correctly unless you have
                          battery balancers which might not work because the imbalance might be
                          beyond there ability to correct.

                          Eric Fisher
                          www.siliconebatteriesusa.com




                          --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Peter Fletcher <fletchfilms@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > My Force has 10 optima'a 12 volt and 2 AC Delco's 12 Volt
                          > After running my car about 60miles total now. not all at once of course.
                          > 2-3 of the Optima's are showing 12volts + almost 12.5 and 12.7 when
                          charged yet when I put a load tester on those
                          > bats the volt reading is more like 8 or 9 volts. So I'm sure I have
                          2 bats that are holding down the whole pack.
                          > 1st of all I might do nothing in the next month or two because I
                          might sell the car on e-bay in the next month and
                          > start on my next ev or....
                          > Question if I did replace 2 of the bats should I just buy some Cheep
                          12 volt bats Deep cycle Walmat brand
                          > for 60 pr 70 $ or spend the extra $ and by two new Optima's . My
                          understanding is that scence it is a used
                          > bat pack with mixed matched used battaries spending nearly $300 for
                          2 new optima's will just be a waist of $
                          > because the pack will be off ballanced any way with 10 old bats and
                          2 new ones.
                          > my idea if I want to drive my EV with out limping home every other
                          day is to just get the cheep
                          > 12 deep cycle walmart brand bats and Let the Next Owner buy a whole
                          new balanced pack.
                          > Thoughts and Idea's Welcome! Fletch 93 Force with Magnet motor and
                          Notch Belt.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > _________________________________________________________________
                          > Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill meets World Series.
                          Get in the game.
                          >
                          http://club.live.com/word_slugger.aspx?icid=word_slugger_wlhm_admod_april08
                          >
                        • Lynn Long
                          Mislead you, I do have 24 Delco 8G24M batteries set up 12 in series both sets parallel, providing my 144 system. What I m looking for is the timer located in
                          Message 12 of 13 , Apr 30, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Mislead you, I do have 24 Delco 8G24M batteries set up 12 in series both sets parallel, providing my 144 system.
                            What I'm looking for is the timer located in the cab on the left side of the the dash (2"x3" face). I believe it was a timer/clock used for the Solectria charger. If someone knows about this timer, my questions relate to all that that timer did. I don't believe I need it now that I've replaced the charger with a Zivan NG5. But, I'm not sure what all it did?
                            Thanks, Lynn
                            ehsif727 <ehsif727@...> wrote:
                            A mix of batteries will never charge correctly when using your string
                            charger. This charger charges the batteries in a series circuit and
                            will only work if the batteries are the same batteries with the same
                            resistance. If batteries are not the same, some batteries will charge
                            and some will not. You can charge the batteries individually and
                            should be able to get the batteries full. The string charger will
                            never charge a mixed set of batteries correctly unless you have
                            battery balancers which might not work because the imbalance might be
                            beyond there ability to correct.

                            Eric Fisher
                            www.siliconebatteriesusa.com


                            --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Peter Fletcher <fletchfilms@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > My Force has 10 optima'a 12 volt and 2 AC Delco's 12 Volt
                            > After running my car about 60miles total now. not all at once of course.
                            > 2-3 of the Optima's are showing 12volts + almost 12.5 and 12.7 when
                            charged yet when I put a load tester on those
                            > bats the volt reading is more like 8 or 9 volts. So I'm sure I have
                            2 bats that are holding down the whole pack.
                            > 1st of all I might do nothing in the next month or two because I
                            might sell the car on e-bay in the next month and
                            > start on my next ev or....
                            > Question if I did replace 2 of the bats should I just buy some Cheep
                            12 volt bats Deep cycle Walmat brand
                            > for 60 pr 70 $ or spend the extra $ and by two new Optima's . My
                            understanding is that scence it is a used
                            > bat pack with mixed matched used battaries spending nearly $300 for
                            2 new optima's will just be a waist of $
                            > because the pack will be off ballanced any way with 10 old bats and
                            2 new ones.
                            > my idea if I want to drive my EV with out limping home every other
                            day is to just get the cheep
                            > 12 deep cycle walmart brand bats and Let the Next Owner buy a whole
                            new balanced pack.
                            > Thoughts and Idea's Welcome! Fletch 93 Force with Magnet motor and
                            Notch Belt.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > __________________________________________________________
                            > Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill meets World Series.
                            Get in the game.
                            >
                            http://club.live.com/word_slugger.aspx?icid=word_slugger_wlhm_admod_april08
                            >






                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Ken Olum
                            From: Peter Fletcher Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 18:58:58 +0000 My Force has 10 optima a 12 volt and 2 AC Delco s 12 Volt... After
                            Message 13 of 13 , Apr 30, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              From: Peter Fletcher <fletchfilms@...>
                              Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 18:58:58 +0000

                              My Force has 10 optima'a 12 volt and 2 AC Delco's 12 Volt...
                              After running my car about 60miles total now....
                              So I'm sure I have 2 bats that are holding down the whole pack...

                              I wouldn't put good money after bad by buying any kind of new
                              batteries to add to this mixed pack (unless the Optimas are brand new
                              except for the 60 miles). Either sell the car the way it is and leave
                              the problem for the new owner, or get a completely new pack of matched
                              batteries.

                              Ken
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