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Re: [solectria_ev] Re:Valence Lithium Update

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  • Rex Allison
    Hi all, First of all I would love to have Li batteries but I see the math a little different based on my driving habits. I drive on average 8.6 miles a day.
    Message 1 of 15 , Sep 8, 2006
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      Hi all,
      First of all I would love to have Li batteries but I
      see the math a little different based on my driving
      habits.
      I drive on average 8.6 miles a day. That is 8.6
      miles/day x 365 days/year = 3,139 miles/year. If I can
      squeeze 18,000 out of my pack that is almost 6 years,
      let say I get 5 years to be on the safe side. I am
      going to spend $1,300 - $1,500 for a new pack, or
      $1,500/5years = $300 per year. For the Group 24
      Valence batteries at $15,000 I would have to drive the
      same pack for 50 years if my driving habits don't
      change much. Realistically the car isn't going to last
      that long.
      Now having said that I will still be watching the
      price of batteries to see if any other chemistry hits
      a price point that is more economical for my driving
      habits then Lead Acid.

      Rex

      --- theoldcars@... wrote:

      >
      > Dan
      >
      > If they have 2000 cycles at 80% DOD and your range
      > is 80 miles that is
      > 160,000 miles before you hit 2000 cycles. At 20,000
      > miles your at about the end of
      > the Deka gel battery. Sure you can still keep
      > running them but the range
      > would be dropping. Going 160,000 miles with the Deka
      > would cost 13,520 dollars
      > not counting the time it takes to change the pack 8
      > times.
      >
      > So dollar wise it is not that far off when you
      > consideration the range and
      > vehicle being lighter. Your really changing the
      > whole vehicle.
      >
      > As I posted earlier a pack of U27 would cost 19,890
      > dollars with a 40
      > percent discount.
      >
      > I am looking at buying 56 or 60 batteries all we
      > need is another 940
      > batteries spoken for.
      >
      > Don
      >
      >
      > In a message dated 9/7/2006 8:56:46 PM Pacific
      > Daylight Time,
      > dannybehr@... writes:
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Don't forget they last at least 3 times as long (in
      > years and miles) and at least twice the range.
      > Therefore, to make the comparison fair, you have to
      > multiply the price of sealed lead acid by >6 to get
      > the equivalent price for the Valence. So the price
      > only needs to come down by less than 40% (from the
      > 27%
      > discount) to be competetive.
      >
      > Dan Wentworth
      > 97 Solectria Force
      >
      > --- Randy Saxton <_Randy@..._
      > (mailto:Randy@...) > wrote:
      >
      > > Ken,
      > >
      > > Great idea, but they've got to do better on the
      > > price. Isn't that about
      > > 10 times the cost of sealed lead acid?
      > >
      > > Randy Saxton
      > >
      > >
      > > laminar1314 wrote:
      > >
      > > > Hi all,
      > > >
      > > > Got an e-mail from Valence today that included
      > the
      > > following:
      > > >
      > > > Discounts with quantity (for U-Charge - not the
      > > BMS or BDI):
      > > > 50-249: 27%
      > > > 250-999: 32%
      > > > 1000-5000: 36%
      > > > 5000+ : 40%
      > > >
      > > > This means that it would only take 5 buyers to
      > > qualify for a 27% price
      > > > break. Thirteen 130Ah
      > > > U27's would cost $24200. If we continue to get
      > > positive feedback from
      > > > the few pioneers who
      > > > have made the purchase, then I'm in and ready to
      > > go.
      > > >
      > > > I think it would be a good idea to start forming
      > a
      > > list of buyers.
      > > > This could include other
      > > > vehicles and user groups, but this is not
      > > essential according to the
      > > > discount schedule. What
      > > > do people think?
      > > >
      > > > Ken Martin
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been
      > removed]
      >
      >


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    • Adam Kuehn
      Just out of curiosity, are your driving habits at least partially dictated by your range? For most PbA EV drivers, I would suspect the answer is yes. If so,
      Message 2 of 15 , Sep 8, 2006
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        Just out of curiosity, are your driving habits at least partially
        dictated by your range? For most PbA EV drivers, I would suspect the
        answer is yes. If so, you should figure in the possible change to
        your driving habits which the increased range would allow.

        Of course, I'm not saying that you, in particular, would change a
        thing. I'm just saying it is worth asking the question for most people.

        -Adam

        At 03:48 PM 9/8/2006, you wrote:

        >Hi all,
        >First of all I would love to have Li batteries but I
        >see the math a little different based on my driving
        >habits.
        >I drive on average 8.6 miles a day. That is 8.6
        >miles/day x 365 days/year = 3,139 miles/year. If I can
        >squeeze 18,000 out of my pack that is almost 6 years,
        >let say I get 5 years to be on the safe side. I am
        >going to spend $1,300 - $1,500 for a new pack, or
        >$1,500/5years = $300 per year. For the Group 24
        >Valence batteries at $15,000 I would have to drive the
        >same pack for 50 years if my driving habits don't
        >change much. Realistically the car isn't going to last
        >that long.
        >Now having said that I will still be watching the
        >price of batteries to see if any other chemistry hits
        >a price point that is more economical for my driving
        >habits then Lead Acid.
        >
        >Rex
      • Rex Allison
        Adam, I use my Force for going to work, school, groceries, and the hardware store. I am centerally located and I also live in a flat area where the climate
        Message 3 of 15 , Sep 8, 2006
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          Adam,
          I use my Force for going to work, school, groceries,
          and the hardware store. I am centerally located and I
          also live in a flat area where the climate doesn't
          change much, low in the 40s and high in the 90s so you
          could say that the the car fits my lifestyle. My wife
          has a mid sized sedan for longer trips and erans.
          Now I have only had my Force for one year, but I have
          lived and worked in Northern California for 12 years
          and all those years except one I have put about 3,000
          to 3,500 miles on my car. My car actually gets used a
          little more because my wife likes to use it for short
          trips when I am home.

          Rex

          --- Adam Kuehn <akuehn@...> wrote:

          > Just out of curiosity, are your driving habits at
          > least partially
          > dictated by your range? For most PbA EV drivers, I
          > would suspect the
          > answer is yes. If so, you should figure in the
          > possible change to
          > your driving habits which the increased range would
          > allow.
          >
          > Of course, I'm not saying that you, in particular,
          > would change a
          > thing. I'm just saying it is worth asking the
          > question for most people.
          >
          > -Adam
          >
          > At 03:48 PM 9/8/2006, you wrote:
          >
          > >Hi all,
          > >First of all I would love to have Li batteries but
          > I
          > >see the math a little different based on my driving
          > >habits.
          > >I drive on average 8.6 miles a day. That is 8.6
          > >miles/day x 365 days/year = 3,139 miles/year. If I
          > can
          > >squeeze 18,000 out of my pack that is almost 6
          > years,
          > >let say I get 5 years to be on the safe side. I am
          > >going to spend $1,300 - $1,500 for a new pack, or
          > >$1,500/5years = $300 per year. For the Group 24
          > >Valence batteries at $15,000 I would have to drive
          > the
          > >same pack for 50 years if my driving habits don't
          > >change much. Realistically the car isn't going to
          > last
          > >that long.
          > >Now having said that I will still be watching the
          > >price of batteries to see if any other chemistry
          > hits
          > >a price point that is more economical for my
          > driving
          > >habits then Lead Acid.
          > >
          > >Rex
          >
          >


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        • Ed Garcia
          Sounds like you are the ideal canidiate for PbA. Li is probably a waste of money for you. Of course maybe a second Li Force for your wife... ... From: Rex
          Message 4 of 15 , Sep 8, 2006
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            Sounds like you are the ideal canidiate for PbA. Li is probably a waste of money for you. Of course maybe a second Li Force for your wife...


            ----- Original Message ----
            From: Rex Allison <ev64bug@...>
            To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, September 8, 2006 2:18:08 PM
            Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Re:Valence Lithium Update

            Adam,
            I use my Force for going to work, school, groceries,
            and the hardware store. I am centerally located and I
            also live in a flat area where the climate doesn't
            change much, low in the 40s and high in the 90s so you
            could say that the the car fits my lifestyle. My wife
            has a mid sized sedan for longer trips and erans.
            Now I have only had my Force for one year, but I have
            lived and worked in Northern California for 12 years
            and all those years except one I have put about 3,000
            to 3,500 miles on my car. My car actually gets used a
            little more because my wife likes to use it for short
            trips when I am home.

            Rex

            --- Adam Kuehn <akuehn@.... com> wrote:

            > Just out of curiosity, are your driving habits at
            > least partially
            > dictated by your range? For most PbA EV drivers, I
            > would suspect the
            > answer is yes. If so, you should figure in the
            > possible change to
            > your driving habits which the increased range would
            > allow.
            >
            > Of course, I'm not saying that you, in particular,
            > would change a
            > thing. I'm just saying it is worth asking the
            > question for most people.
            >
            > -Adam
            >
            > At 03:48 PM 9/8/2006, you wrote:
            >
            > >Hi all,
            > >First of all I would love to have Li batteries but
            > I
            > >see the math a little different based on my driving
            > >habits.
            > >I drive on average 8.6 miles a day. That is 8.6
            > >miles/day x 365 days/year = 3,139 miles/year. If I
            > can
            > >squeeze 18,000 out of my pack that is almost 6
            > years,
            > >let say I get 5 years to be on the safe side. I am
            > >going to spend $1,300 - $1,500 for a new pack, or
            > >$1,500/5years = $300 per year. For the Group 24
            > >Valence batteries at $15,000 I would have to drive
            > the
            > >same pack for 50 years if my driving habits don't
            > >change much. Realistically the car isn't going to
            > last
            > >that long.
            > >Now having said that I will still be watching the
            > >price of batteries to see if any other chemistry
            > hits
            > >a price point that is more economical for my
            > driving
            > >habits then Lead Acid.
            > >
            > >Rex
            >
            >

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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • d. Bouton Baldridge
            Heaven knows that the benefits of the lion battery are probably worth the cost in the long run, but there is one factor that we all seem to be
            Message 5 of 15 , Sep 11, 2006
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              Heaven knows that the benefits of the lion battery are probably worth the cost in the long run, but there is one factor that we all seem to be overlooking...the Geo is a cheap car, its bad enough that they "Forced" some very high tech expensive stuff into such a weak platform, but the car itself was never worth the huge investment. I have a hard time keeping the mirors on. I only invested $ 5000 in mine initially, then another $3000 for batteries and accessories, charger etc. but the fact is I am not sure how long the car can hold together. It is perfect for all of the round town trips and is extreemly inexpensive on energy use as is. Dumping another 18 or 20 thou to get better range when it is doubtful that we will be able to find parts after that time much less all of the wear and tear on a cheap chassis does not seem practical. I am sure I will offend some of you out there, I love my little "Force" and my RangerEV and hope to nurse them for as long as I can, but I am
              trying to be real; even now they are fast becoming museum pieces, like it or not.
              Bouty

              "Will Beckett (cruzio)" <beckettw@...> wrote:
              but they will last 6 times longer and yield three times the range than
              lead/acid.

              - Will
              Aptos, CA 95003
              (831) 688-8669
              will@...


              _____

              From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com [mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf Of Randy Saxton
              Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 7:18 PM
              To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Valence Lithium Update

              Ken,

              Great idea, but they've got to do better on the price. Isn't that about
              10 times the cost of sealed lead acid?

              Randy Saxton

              laminar1314 wrote:

              > Hi all,
              >
              > Got an e-mail from Valence today that included the following:
              >
              > Discounts with quantity (for U-Charge - not the BMS or BDI):
              > 50-249: 27%
              > 250-999: 32%
              > 1000-5000: 36%
              > 5000+ : 40%
              >
              > This means that it would only take 5 buyers to qualify for a 27% price
              > break. Thirteen 130Ah
              > U27's would cost $24200. If we continue to get positive feedback from
              > the few pioneers who
              > have made the purchase, then I'm in and ready to go.
              >
              > I think it would be a good idea to start forming a list of buyers.
              > This could include other
              > vehicles and user groups, but this is not essential according to the
              > discount schedule. What
              > do people think?
              >
              > Ken Martin
              >
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






              ---------------------------------
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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • theoldcars@aol.com
              You got into your Solectria for a very good price. From what I have seen they are going for more money now on eBay and even with them being worth more hardly
              Message 6 of 15 , Sep 11, 2006
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                You got into your Solectria for a very good price. From what I have seen
                they are going for more money now on eBay and even with them being worth more
                hardly anyone is selling.

                Don

                In a message dated 9/11/2006 8:02:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
                cfrkeepr@... writes:




                Heaven knows that the benefits of the lion battery are probably worth the
                cost in the long run, but there is one factor that we all seem to be
                overlooking.Heaven knows that the benefits of the lion battery are probably worth the
                cost in the long run, but there is one factor that we all seem to be
                overlooking.<WBR>..the Geo is a cheap car, its bad enough that they "Forced" some very
                high tech expensive stuff into such a weak platform, but the car itself was
                never worth the huge investment. I have a hard time keeping the mirors on. I
                only invested $ 5000 in mine initially, then another $3000 for batteries and
                accessories, charger etc. but the fact is I am not sure how long the car can
                hold together. It is perfect for all of the round town trips and is extreemly
                inexpensive on energy use as is. Dumping another 18 or 20 thou to get better
                range when it is doubtful that we will be able to find parts after that time
                much less all of the wear and tear on a cheap chassis does not s
                trying to be real; even now they are fast becoming museum pieces, like it or
                not.
                Bouty

                "Will Beckett (cruzio)" <_beckettw@..._ (mailto:beckettw@...) >
                wrote:
                but they will last 6 times longer and yield three times the range than
                lead/acid.

                - Will
                Aptos, CA 95003
                (831) 688-8669
                _will@..._ (mailto:will@...)

                _____

                From: _solectria_ev@solectria_evsol_ (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com)
                [mailto:_solectria_ev@solectria_evsol_ (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com) ]
                On
                Behalf Of Randy Saxton
                Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 7:18 PM
                To: _solectria_ev@solectria_evsol_ (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com)
                Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Valence Lithium Update

                Ken,

                Great idea, but they've got to do better on the price. Isn't that about
                10 times the cost of sealed lead acid?

                Randy Saxton

                laminar1314 wrote:

                > Hi all,
                >
                > Got an e-mail from Valence today that included the following:
                >
                > Discounts with quantity (for U-Charge - not the BMS or BDI):
                > 50-249: 27%
                > 250-999: 32%
                > 1000-5000: 36%
                > 5000+ : 40%
                >
                > This means that it would only take 5 buyers to qualify for a 27% price
                > break. Thirteen 130Ah
                > U27's would cost $24200. If we continue to get positive feedback from
                > the few pioneers who
                > have made the purchase, then I'm in and ready to go.
                >
                > I think it would be a good idea to start forming a list of buyers.
                > This could include other
                > vehicles and user groups, but this is not essential according to the
                > discount schedule. What
                > do people think?
                >
                > Ken Martin
                >








                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Brett Kelien
                While some of the Solectria vehicles have been going high on Ebay ,I have been wacthing this last one and it has not been paid for yet .I have no proof of
                Message 7 of 15 , Sep 12, 2006
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                  While some of the Solectria vehicles have been going
                  high on Ebay ,I have been wacthing this last one and
                  it has not been paid for yet .I have no proof of
                  course but he was wanting 27k for it and it went for
                  24k and it looks like the bid was run up just to try
                  and make it go higher I have emailed both high bidders
                  and gotten no response.And it does happen .

                  --- theoldcars@... wrote:

                  >
                  > You got into your Solectria for a very good price.
                  > From what I have seen
                  > they are going for more money now on eBay and even
                  > with them being worth more
                  > hardly anyone is selling.
                  >
                  > Don
                  >
                  > In a message dated 9/11/2006 8:02:03 PM Pacific
                  > Daylight Time,
                  > cfrkeepr@... writes:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Heaven knows that the benefits of the lion battery
                  > are probably worth the
                  > cost in the long run, but there is one factor that
                  > we all seem to be
                  > overlooking.Heaven knows that the benefits of the
                  > lion battery are probably worth the
                  > cost in the long run, but there is one factor that
                  > we all seem to be
                  > overlooking.<WBR>..the Geo is a cheap car, its bad
                  > enough that they "Forced" some very
                  > high tech expensive stuff into such a weak platform,
                  > but the car itself was
                  > never worth the huge investment. I have a hard time
                  > keeping the mirors on. I
                  > only invested $ 5000 in mine initially, then another
                  > $3000 for batteries and
                  > accessories, charger etc. but the fact is I am not
                  > sure how long the car can
                  > hold together. It is perfect for all of the round
                  > town trips and is extreemly
                  > inexpensive on energy use as is. Dumping another 18
                  > or 20 thou to get better
                  > range when it is doubtful that we will be able to
                  > find parts after that time
                  > much less all of the wear and tear on a cheap
                  > chassis does not s
                  > trying to be real; even now they are fast becoming
                  > museum pieces, like it or
                  > not.
                  > Bouty
                  >
                  > "Will Beckett (cruzio)" <_beckettw@..._
                  > (mailto:beckettw@...) >
                  > wrote:
                  > but they will last 6 times longer and yield three
                  > times the range than
                  > lead/acid.
                  >
                  > - Will
                  > Aptos, CA 95003
                  > (831) 688-8669
                  > _will@..._ (mailto:will@...)
                  >
                  > _____
                  >
                  > From: _solectria_ev@solectria_evsol_
                  > (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com)
                  > [mailto:_solectria_ev@solectria_evsol_
                  > (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com) ]
                  > On
                  > Behalf Of Randy Saxton
                  > Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 7:18 PM
                  > To: _solectria_ev@solectria_evsol_
                  > (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com)
                  > Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Valence Lithium Update
                  >
                  > Ken,
                  >
                  > Great idea, but they've got to do better on the
                  > price. Isn't that about
                  > 10 times the cost of sealed lead acid?
                  >
                  > Randy Saxton
                  >
                  > laminar1314 wrote:
                  >
                  > > Hi all,
                  > >
                  > > Got an e-mail from Valence today that included the
                  > following:
                  > >
                  > > Discounts with quantity (for U-Charge - not the
                  > BMS or BDI):
                  > > 50-249: 27%
                  > > 250-999: 32%
                  > > 1000-5000: 36%
                  > > 5000+ : 40%
                  > >
                  > > This means that it would only take 5 buyers to
                  > qualify for a 27% price
                  > > break. Thirteen 130Ah
                  > > U27's would cost $24200. If we continue to get
                  > positive feedback from
                  > > the few pioneers who
                  > > have made the purchase, then I'm in and ready to
                  > go.
                  > >
                  > > I think it would be a good idea to start forming a
                  > list of buyers.
                  > > This could include other
                  > > vehicles and user groups, but this is not
                  > essential according to the
                  > > discount schedule. What
                  > > do people think?
                  > >
                  > > Ken Martin
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  > removed]
                  >
                  >


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