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Re: [solectria_ev] Valence Lithium

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  • Leonard Tramiel
    Thanks for the info. One question: What physical and amp/hour size are the batteries? (Or is that two questions?) -Leonard ... From: philipdayson
    Message 1 of 17 , Jun 12, 2006
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      Thanks for the info.

      One question:
      What physical and amp/hour size are the batteries?
      (Or is that two questions?)

      -Leonard


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "philipdayson" <pdayson@...>
      To: <solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2006 9:06 PM
      Subject: [solectria_ev] Valence Lithium


      At long last the Lithium Ions from Valence have arrived These are
      the new version with the battery managment system primarily built into
      each battery In addition to the normal terminals each battery has two
      RS485 cables to be connected daisy chain fashion battery to battery
      then to a single small management controller This controller is
      meant to even out battery to battery variations as well as give
      various contacts for emergency shut off etc One terminal will give
      soc info as a simple 5v analogue voltage It will be a couple of
      weeks before I get the 13 batteries installed We still have to
      fiqure out what to do about the regeneration when the batteries are
      fully charged I will keep the list infomed with as much info as I can
      generate

      Phil Dayson

      Vancouver Canada








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    • philipdayson
      Here is a link to the Valence Li Ion data sheet. Dimensions, weights, amphrs are all shown. I am using U27 batteries
      Message 2 of 17 , Jun 13, 2006
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        Here is a link to the Valence Li Ion data sheet. Dimensions, weights,
        amphrs are all shown. I am using U27 batteries

        http://www.valence.com/pdffiles/U-Charge%20XP%20DS%20Jan06.pdf

        Phil Dayson
      • Dan Wentworth
        Phil, What s the news on the Valence battery upgrade? Have you found out what your range actually is now versus what you predicted? Who do we contact for
        Message 3 of 17 , Sep 5, 2006
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          Phil,
          What's the news on the Valence battery upgrade?
          Have you found out what your range actually is now
          versus what you predicted?

          Who do we contact for quotes to replicate your setup?
          I may be interested in doing a lithuim upgrade next
          year.

          thanks,
          Dan Wentworth
          97 PbA Solectria Force

          --- philipdayson <pdayson@...> wrote:

          > At long last the Lithium Ions from Valence have
          > arrived These are
          > the new version with the battery managment system
          > primarily built into
          > each battery In addition to the normal terminals
          > each battery has two
          > RS485 cables to be connected daisy chain fashion
          > battery to battery
          > then to a single small management controller This
          > controller is
          > meant to even out battery to battery variations as
          > well as give
          > various contacts for emergency shut off etc One
          > terminal will give
          > soc info as a simple 5v analogue voltage It will
          > be a couple of
          > weeks before I get the 13 batteries installed We
          > still have to
          > fiqure out what to do about the regeneration when
          > the batteries are
          > fully charged I will keep the list infomed with as
          > much info as I can
          > generate
          >
          > Phil Dayson
          >
          > Vancouver Canada
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >


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        • theoldcars@aol.com
          Hello Dan I have been talking to Marc at Valence for a couple of years about their batteries. If we can get a thousand battery order we can get a quantity
          Message 4 of 17 , Sep 5, 2006
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            Hello Dan

            I have been talking to Marc at Valence for a couple of years about their
            batteries. If we can get a thousand battery order we can get a quantity
            discount.

            Please contact me about this.

            Don Blazer

            In a message dated 9/5/2006 9:08:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
            dannybehr@... writes:




            Phil,
            What's the news on the Valence battery upgrade?
            Have you found out what your range actually is now
            versus what you predicted?

            Who do we contact for quotes to replicate your setup?
            I may be interested in doing a lithuim upgrade next
            year.

            thanks,
            Dan Wentworth
            97 PbA Solectria Force

            --- philipdayson <_pdayson@..._ (mailto:pdayson@...) > wrote:

            > At long last the Lithium Ions from Valence have
            > arrived These are
            > the new version with the battery managment system
            > primarily built into
            > each battery In addition to the normal terminals
            > each battery has two
            > RS485 cables to be connected daisy chain fashion
            > battery to battery
            > then to a single small management controller This
            > controller is
            > meant to even out battery to battery variations as
            > well as give
            > various contacts for emergency shut off etc One
            > terminal will give
            > soc info as a simple 5v analogue voltage It will
            > be a couple of
            > weeks before I get the 13 batteries installed We
            > still have to
            > fiqure out what to do about the regeneration when
            > the batteries are
            > fully charged I will keep the list infomed with as
            > much info as I can
            > generate
            >
            > Phil Dayson
            >
            > Vancouver Canada
            >








            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Brett Kelien
            how much money we talking and how much more range can we get? I just bought new odyssey pc1200 s but could easily sell them for a 100 or so each and recover my
            Message 5 of 17 , Sep 5, 2006
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              how much money we talking and how much more range can
              we get? I just bought new odyssey pc1200's but could
              easily sell them for a 100 or so each and recover my
              money on them

              --- theoldcars@... wrote:

              >
              > Hello Dan
              >
              > I have been talking to Marc at Valence for a couple
              > of years about their
              > batteries. If we can get a thousand battery order we
              > can get a quantity
              > discount.
              >
              > Please contact me about this.
              >
              > Don Blazer
              >
              > In a message dated 9/5/2006 9:08:39 AM Pacific
              > Daylight Time,
              > dannybehr@... writes:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Phil,
              > What's the news on the Valence battery upgrade?
              > Have you found out what your range actually is now
              > versus what you predicted?
              >
              > Who do we contact for quotes to replicate your
              > setup?
              > I may be interested in doing a lithuim upgrade next
              > year.
              >
              > thanks,
              > Dan Wentworth
              > 97 PbA Solectria Force
              >
              > --- philipdayson <_pdayson@..._
              > (mailto:pdayson@...) > wrote:
              >
              > > At long last the Lithium Ions from Valence have
              > > arrived These are
              > > the new version with the battery managment system
              > > primarily built into
              > > each battery In addition to the normal terminals
              > > each battery has two
              > > RS485 cables to be connected daisy chain fashion
              > > battery to battery
              > > then to a single small management controller This
              > > controller is
              > > meant to even out battery to battery variations
              > as
              > > well as give
              > > various contacts for emergency shut off etc One
              > > terminal will give
              > > soc info as a simple 5v analogue voltage It will
              > > be a couple of
              > > weeks before I get the 13 batteries installed We
              > > still have to
              > > fiqure out what to do about the regeneration when
              > > the batteries are
              > > fully charged I will keep the list infomed with as
              > > much info as I can
              > > generate
              > >
              > > Phil Dayson
              > >
              > > Vancouver Canada
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been
              > removed]
              >
              >


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            • theoldcars@aol.com
              How much more range? I believe it would take a Force to around 100 miles Stephen could say he has had them for about two years I think. The other thing is
              Message 6 of 17 , Sep 5, 2006
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                How much more range? I believe it would take a Force to around 100 miles
                Stephen could say he has had them for about two years I think. The other thing
                is cycles if they last 2000 cycles at 100 mile range that would be 200,000
                miles. Even if it was 150,000 miles that is a long time. At three dollars a
                gallon with a 30 MPG vehicle this would be 15,000 dollars in gas at today's
                prices. I feel there is a lot more important reasons than money to drive electric.

                Price would be a lot better than their current selling price. About 40% off
                these prices if we can get a large battery order going.


                U1= $860
                U24= $2030
                U27 = $2550


                It would depend on how many we can order. Maybe someone can convince them
                that it would be in their best interest to get these into electric vehicles now.
                I have not posted this on other sites yet I just talked to Marc from Valence
                about how we can get their pricing down.

                Don

                In a message dated 9/5/2006 1:48:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
                jagman_xjs@... writes:




                how much money we talking and how much more range can
                we get? I just bought new odyssey pc1200's but could
                easily sell them for a 100 or so each and recover my
                money on them









                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Stephen Taylor
                Yes I have taken my Valence powered Force 100 miles on several occassions, but the max range isn t currently much more than 100 miles, meaning if I run the AC
                Message 7 of 17 , Sep 5, 2006
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                  Yes I have taken my Valence powered Force 100 miles on several occassions, but the max range isn't currently much more than 100 miles, meaning if I run the AC or heat or drive fast the max range would be lower than 100. This is with the engineering prototype models. The newer production batteries supposedly have about 10% more energy, but I can't confirm that.

                  Stephen






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                • philipdayson
                  Valence batteries are finally within a day or two of being fitted. Will be on holiday till last week in Sept but as soon as I get any range info I will send
                  Message 8 of 17 , Sep 5, 2006
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                    Valence batteries are finally within a day or two of being fitted.
                    Will be on holiday till last week in Sept but as soon as I get any
                    range info I will send in a report. Part of the Valence pack was
                    tested in the Dynasty IT nev in place of normal Deka group 31
                    batteries Range increased from about 30 miles to 66 miles. I can
                    hardly wait. Have also ordered a set of Sumitomo HTR 200 tires

                    Phil Dayson
                  • Brett Kelien
                    Anything special about the tires ?I am still running the stock Tiger Paws figured I would work on wearing them out .Brett ...
                    Message 9 of 17 , Sep 5, 2006
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                      Anything special about the tires ?I am still running
                      the stock Tiger Paws figured I would work on wearing
                      them out .Brett

                      --- philipdayson <pdayson@...> wrote:

                      > Valence batteries are finally within a day or two
                      > of being fitted.
                      > Will be on holiday till last week in Sept but as
                      > soon as I get any
                      > range info I will send in a report. Part of the
                      > Valence pack was
                      > tested in the Dynasty IT nev in place of normal Deka
                      > group 31
                      > batteries Range increased from about 30 miles to 66
                      > miles. I can
                      > hardly wait. Have also ordered a set of Sumitomo
                      > HTR 200 tires
                      >
                      > Phil Dayson
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


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                    • Will Beckett (cruzio)
                      How did you adjust the controller and charger? What other adjustments did you make? If you don t mind me asking, what was the cost of the batteries. - Will
                      Message 10 of 17 , Sep 5, 2006
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                        How did you adjust the controller and charger? What other adjustments did
                        you make?

                        If you don't mind me asking, what was the cost of the batteries.

                        - Will
                        Aptos, CA 95003
                        (831) 688-8669
                        will@...


                        _____

                        From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com [mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com] On
                        Behalf Of philipdayson
                        Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 5:18 PM
                        To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [solectria_ev] Re: Valence Lithium



                        Valence batteries are finally within a day or two of being fitted.
                        Will be on holiday till last week in Sept but as soon as I get any
                        range info I will send in a report. Part of the Valence pack was
                        tested in the Dynasty IT nev in place of normal Deka group 31
                        batteries Range increased from about 30 miles to 66 miles. I can
                        hardly wait. Have also ordered a set of Sumitomo HTR 200 tires

                        Phil Dayson






                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Kenneth Martin
                        Everyone, I, for one, am prepared to replace my batteries with lithium. Assuming the installation, regeneration, and charging issues can be resolved, why don t
                        Message 11 of 17 , Sep 6, 2006
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                          Everyone,

                          I, for one, am prepared to replace my batteries with lithium.
                          Assuming the installation, regeneration, and charging issues can be
                          resolved, why don't we take an official pole of those who are
                          interested and determine how many buyers we can pool for a mass
                          purchase. If we work collectively, we can also pool resources on the
                          engineering. I have asked Valence if they have, or can provide, a
                          turn key solution for us. No response so far; I don't think they took
                          me seriously.

                          Seems like our esteemed moderator should run the pole. Count me in
                          right now.

                          Ken Martin
                          2001 Force
                          2003 Rav-4
                          10.6 kW AstroPower
                        • ldr214
                          Ken and all, I don t think there are any issues with installation, regeneration or charging. The Valence U27 is pretty much a drop in replacement for a Pba
                          Message 12 of 17 , Sep 6, 2006
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                            Ken and all,
                            I don't think there are any issues with installation, regeneration or
                            charging. The Valence U27 is pretty much a drop in replacement for a
                            Pba battery. It has its own BMS and based upon what Valence has
                            provided in info it is a very tolerate Lithium formulation. In other
                            words you may not need a fire extinguisher. The only issue I have with
                            calling ordering them tomorrow morning is adding 50-70 miles range to
                            my car just isn't worth $20,000, if you can even get them that
                            cheap:-) So you might also include in your poll a question regarding
                            dollars. Like everyone else I want them but the reality is that I
                            don't need them at the current price. My big hope is that one of the
                            hybrids does a Valence powered plugin and uses a U24 which would give
                            me all the range I need and shed even more pounds. So the Force won't
                            be such a slug on the freeway. But chances are they will use some
                            proprietary thing and not do the market any favors. The U1 is a drop
                            in replacement wheel chair battery. I also watched the lithiums in the
                            Nissans here in Vacaville go from neat to shot faster than Pba's in my
                            Force. They probably had less than Force performance when turned in
                            this spring. They weren't Valence but I'm still watching and waiting.
                            Hopefully one of these days real soon we'll get some good news on both
                            price and performance. A poll would be a good idea.

                            Mike Rydjord
                            97 Pba
                            20,500 miles


                            --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Martin <2kwm@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Everyone,
                            >
                            > I, for one, am prepared to replace my batteries with lithium.
                            > Assuming the installation, regeneration, and charging issues can be
                            > resolved, why don't we take an official pole of those who are
                            > interested and determine how many buyers we can pool for a mass
                            > purchase. If we work collectively, we can also pool resources on the
                            > engineering. I have asked Valence if they have, or can provide, a
                            > turn key solution for us. No response so far; I don't think they took
                            > me seriously.
                            >
                            > Seems like our esteemed moderator should run the pole. Count me in
                            > right now.
                            >
                            > Ken Martin
                            > 2001 Force
                            > 2003 Rav-4
                            > 10.6 kW AstroPower
                            >
                          • theoldcars@aol.com
                            Mike, Ken and all I have been talking to Marc at Valence for two years about these batteries. I was hoping that moving production to China would lower the
                            Message 13 of 17 , Sep 6, 2006
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                              Mike, Ken and all

                              I have been talking to Marc at Valence for two years about these batteries.
                              I was hoping that moving production to China would lower the price. Since
                              they started manufacturing there the prices have gone up.

                              If we can get a 1000 battery order the price to upgrade a Solectria to 156
                              volt of Valence lithium batteries would be 19,890. This is the U27 that list
                              is $2550 each or list price pack of 13 would be $33150. This is the 130 Ah @
                              the C/5 rate weight is 40.9 pounds per battery. Pack weight would be 532
                              pounds.

                              A 100 Ah pack of the U24 would cost 15,834 and only weigh 448.5 pounds.

                              The Solectria 156 volt Deka gel battery weigh 63 pounds each for a pack of
                              13 is 819 pounds.


                              There are many people who would like to buy these besides Solectria owners.
                              It would take a lot of work to coordinate this but if we have enough serious
                              buyers I think we could set this up directly with Marc at Valence.

                              Stephen what size did you use in your Solectria? Are you interested in
                              another set? Do you think this is as good a price as we could get?

                              There are several Ford Ranger owners who might consider these as well as
                              other EV drivers. I am looking at building a ground up EV and these batteries
                              would really remove a lot of weight and extend the range. If we cannot get a
                              good discount on these I will use NiMH batteries which weigh a lot more.

                              Don

                              In a message dated 9/6/2006 8:08:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
                              replytome@... writes:




                              Ken and all,
                              I don't think there are any issues with installation, regeneration or
                              charging. The Valence U27 is pretty much a drop in replacement for a
                              Pba battery. It has its own BMS and based upon what Valence has
                              provided in info it is a very tolerate Lithium formulation. In other
                              words you may not need a fire extinguisher. The only issue I have with
                              calling ordering them tomorrow morning is adding 50-70 miles range to
                              my car just isn't worth $20,000, if you can even get them that
                              cheap:-) So you might also include in your poll a question regarding
                              dollars. Like everyone else I want them but the reality is that I
                              don't need them at the current price. My big hope is that one of the
                              hybrids does a Valence powered plugin and uses a U24 which would give
                              me all the range I need and shed even more pounds. So the Force won't
                              be such a slug on the freeway. But chances are they will use some
                              proprietary thing and not do the market any favors. The U1 is a drop
                              in replacement wheel chair battery. I also watched the lithiums in the
                              Nissans here in Vacaville go from neat to shot faster than Pba's in my
                              Force. They probably had less than Force performance when turned in
                              this spring. They weren't Valence but I'm still watching and waiting.
                              Hopefully one of these days real soon we'll get some good news on both
                              price and performance. A poll would be a good idea.

                              Mike Rydjord
                              97 Pba
                              20,500 miles

                              --- In _solectria_ev@solectria_evsol_ (mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com) ,
                              Kenneth Martin <2kwm@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Everyone,
                              >
                              > I, for one, am prepared to replace my batteries with lithium.
                              > Assuming the installation, regeneration, and charging issues can be
                              > resolved, why don't we take an official pole of those who are
                              > interested and determine how many buyers we can pool for a mass
                              > purchase. If we work collectively, we can also pool resources on the
                              > engineering. I have asked Valence if they have, or can provide, a
                              > turn key solution for us. No response so far; I don't think they took
                              > me seriously.
                              >
                              > Seems like our esteemed moderator should run the pole. Count me in
                              > right now.
                              >
                              > Ken Martin
                              > 2001 Force
                              > 2003 Rav-4
                              > 10.6 kW AstroPower
                              >








                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Stephen Taylor
                              I put in group 27 Valence Batteries in my Force as they are an exact replacement for our Gel batteries. Installation calls for a couple of relays to be
                              Message 14 of 17 , Sep 7, 2006
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                                I put in group 27 Valence Batteries in my Force as they are an exact replacement for our Gel batteries. Installation calls for a couple of relays to be installed so that the BMS system can shut the charger and controller off in case of emergencies. They aren't too hard to install because you use one to cutoff AC power from the wall to the charger and you can use the other relay to cut the 12 volt signal to the controller, effectively shutting it down. You also need to feed the BMS central controller pack voltage, 12 volt power and ignition switched 12 volt power.

                                Valence says you can use standard lead acid profiles so I assume you might not even have to change the charger profile if you don't want to. The prefered profile is charge to 14.6 volts per battery and then float at 13.8 volts per battery, my Force is charged to 13.8 volts period. I had Solectria adjust my controller, but the adjustments we made were essentially guesses. The maximum voltage of the controller should be set to at least 180 volts for a 156 volt car (mine was changed to 190 volts), I'm not sure what the lead acid cars are set for. I think you can leave the minimum in the same place that it is, but Solectria changed mine to 150 volts.

                                The batteries I have in the Force are the engineering prototypes, while the ones I installed in the Sunrise are the newer production models. The production models are much much nicer too bad the Sunrise isn't more "finished".

                                Stephen




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                              • Anil Paryani
                                I want to monitor the shunt in my Force Does anyone know the pin-outs in the Fuse Box and what size shunt is used? Thanks, Anil -Force 95 ... Do you Yahoo!?
                                Message 15 of 17 , Sep 20, 2006
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                                  I want to monitor the shunt in my Force

                                  Does anyone know the pin-outs in the Fuse Box and what size shunt is used?

                                  Thanks,

                                  Anil

                                  -Force 95


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