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Re: [solectria_ev] Re: Digest Number 697 (group battery buy - Li ion or NiMh

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  • Rex Allison
    I wanted to add what I believe to be the practical rating and cost of the Lead Acid Solectria Force Batteries. I don t have experience with the NiMh or Li ion
    Message 1 of 26 , Apr 24 1:56 PM
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      I wanted to add what I believe to be the practical
      rating and cost of the Lead Acid Solectria Force
      Batteries. I don't have experience with the NiMh or Li
      ion Batteries. Based on my experience with Lead Acid
      there is closer to 7kWh (45Ahr x 12V x 13 batteries)
      in one pack. The cost is close to $2k ($160 x 13).

      Gel Cells:
      Deka Dominator 8G27M 57Ahr@1hr
      45Ahr pracical 12V 28.7kg, $160 ea
      -> 18.8Wh/kg, $296/kWh

      --- Jeremy Rutman <jeremy_spagnet@...> wrote:

      > Count me in for 20kWh of NiMh or Li ion.
      > Best prices I've found so far:
      >
      > NiMh:
      > betterpower 63D12000 12Ah 36V 6kg, $107 ea
      > ->72Wh/kg, $250/kWh
      >
      > Li ion:
      > Huanyu HLP103463 1.8Ah 3.7V 0.046kg, $1.90
      > ea->144Wh/kg, $285/kWh
      > Huanyu HLC32580 4.2Ah 3.7V 0.125kg,
      > $6/ea->124Wh/kg,$386/kWh
      >
      > waiting on prices from panasonic and saft
      >
      >
      > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Nick Austin
      > <yahoo@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2006 at 10:20:48AM -0700, Kenneth
      > Martin wrote:
      > > > I'm also contemplating pack replacement. I'm
      > undecided about Li or
      > > > Ni, and have been hoping someone would come
      > along with a price
      > > > breakthrough. I might be interested in a group
      > purchase even for
      > lead
      > > > acid.
      > >
      > > Yea, if anybody could setup a group valance buy, I
      > would be
      > intrested in that
      > > as well.
      > >
      > > Thanks!
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >


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    • Jeremy Rutman
      For the betterpower 63D12000 12Ah 36V 6kg $107 the manufacturer claims 60Amps max. (they give 5C as the limit no matter what capacity) If you take a round
      Message 2 of 26 , Apr 25 4:30 AM
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        For the
        betterpower 63D12000 12Ah 36V 6kg $107
        the manufacturer claims 60Amps max. (they give '5C' as the limit no
        matter what capacity)
        If you take a round 10KWh of stored energy then that would
        require 24 of these batteries, I guess the force is running
        144V? THen you'd have 6 parallel chains of 4 in series.
        I dont know what you guys see practically for max power.
        Lets say 20kW? Then at 144V you need 139Amps, if its
        coming from 6 parallel chains that comes to 23 amps each
        chain which is confortably under the max spec given.

        Thanks for the battlepacks.com link, air cooling the
        batteries or at the very least monitoring the temp is called for

        --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Phillips"
        <mikep_95133@...> wrote:
        >
        > What kind of cost are you looking at?
        >
        > The other thing is that 9ah cells are usually low amp, long duration
        > cells. So they could work with enough in parallel. The other issue
        is
        > these packs need to be vented and the cells need to be separated
        with
        > a ring at the top and bottom to allow free airflow. Take a look at
        > Battlepacks.com to see what I mean. Very important for longevity.
        >
        > Mike
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy Rutman"
        > <jeremy_spagnet@> wrote:
        > >
        > > The 63D12000 is a battery pack, made of 30 1.2V batteries.
        > > All I can find now is a lower capcity one,
        > > http://www.betterpower.com.cn/8027/en/product_1_show.asp?
        > > product_id=210
        > >
        > > I spent a few hours hunting for the 63D12000 and also
        > > cant find it but have some email correspondence on it.
        > >
        > > It looks like they already have a bigger capacity battery ,
        > > the BP90D16000, which is 16Ah 1.2V.
        > > They can make these into the same 30 battery packs as the
        > > 63D12000 pack - specs on the BP90D16000 at
        > >
        > > http://www.betterpower.com.cn/8027/en/product_1_show.asp?
        > > product_id=107
        > >
        > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Phillips"
        > > <mikep_95133@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Man that website is slow! But I still could not match that part
        > > number
        > > > in that link that you gave.
        > > >
        > > > Mike
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy Rutman"
        > > > <jeremy_spagnet@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > You can check their line out at
        > > > > http://www.betterpower.com.cn/8027/en/product_1.asp?
        > > Producttype_id=16
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Phillips"
        > > > > <mikep_95133@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I could not find a link to the Better-Power NiMH battery.
        Do
        > > you
        > > > > have one?
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Mike
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy Rutman"
        > > > > > <jeremy_spagnet@> wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Count me in for 20kWh of NiMh or Li ion.
        > > > > > > Best prices I've found so far:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > NiMh:
        > > > > > > betterpower 63D12000 12Ah 36V 6kg, $107 ea -
        >72Wh/kg,
        > > > > $250/kWh
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Li ion:
        > > > > > > Huanyu HLP103463 1.8Ah 3.7V 0.046kg, $1.90 ea->144Wh/kg,
        > > $285/kWh
        > > > > > > Huanyu HLC32580 4.2Ah 3.7V 0.125kg, $6/ea-
        >124Wh/kg,$386/kWh
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > waiting on prices from panasonic and saft
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Nick Austin <yahoo@>
        > > wrote:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2006 at 10:20:48AM -0700, Kenneth
        Martin
        > > wrote:
        > > > > > > > > I'm also contemplating pack replacement. I'm
        undecided
        > > about
        > > > > Li or
        > > > > > > > > Ni, and have been hoping someone would come along
        with a
        > > > > price
        > > > > > > > > breakthrough. I might be interested in a group
        purchase
        > > even
        > > > > for
        > > > > > > lead
        > > > > > > > > acid.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Yea, if anybody could setup a group valance buy, I
        would be
        > > > > > > intrested in that
        > > > > > > > as well.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Thanks!
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • Mike Phillips
        How funny, I asked you for the cost yet it was already posted. I was tired yesterday ;) I have a USE truck. 312v nominal, 200 amps max. So that would be about
        Message 3 of 26 , Apr 25 8:28 AM
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          How funny, I asked you for the cost yet it was already posted. I was
          tired yesterday ;)

          I have a USE truck. 312v nominal, 200 amps max. So that would be about
          9s4p (9 series, 4 parallel). 324v at 240 amps. That's 36 packs at $107
          each. In round numbers that's $3600 with a discount ;). The problem
          would be getting the vendor to make them with the rings. I suspect
          they are tack welding them in an automated process. Not to mention
          that it would more space efficient to have them made into a 3
          dimensional brick. So a custom job may not be available. Maybe the
          price would go down if the cells were sold separately. Just thinking
          out loud.

          The other thing is cycle life. There are some cheapo batterys in the
          world. These should be tested first I think.

          Mike





          --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy Rutman"
          <jeremy_spagnet@...> wrote:
          >
          > For the
          > betterpower 63D12000 12Ah 36V 6kg $107
          > the manufacturer claims 60Amps max. (they give '5C' as the limit no
          > matter what capacity)
          > If you take a round 10KWh of stored energy then that would
          > require 24 of these batteries, I guess the force is running
          > 144V? THen you'd have 6 parallel chains of 4 in series.
          > I dont know what you guys see practically for max power.
          > Lets say 20kW? Then at 144V you need 139Amps, if its
          > coming from 6 parallel chains that comes to 23 amps each
          > chain which is confortably under the max spec given.
          >
          > Thanks for the battlepacks.com link, air cooling the
          > batteries or at the very least monitoring the temp is called for
          >
          > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Phillips"
          > <mikep_95133@> wrote:
          > >
          > > What kind of cost are you looking at?
          > >
          > > The other thing is that 9ah cells are usually low amp, long duration
          > > cells. So they could work with enough in parallel. The other issue
          > is
          > > these packs need to be vented and the cells need to be separated
          > with
          > > a ring at the top and bottom to allow free airflow. Take a look at
          > > Battlepacks.com to see what I mean. Very important for longevity.
          > >
          > > Mike
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy Rutman"
          > > <jeremy_spagnet@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > The 63D12000 is a battery pack, made of 30 1.2V batteries.
          > > > All I can find now is a lower capcity one,
          > > > http://www.betterpower.com.cn/8027/en/product_1_show.asp?
          > > > product_id=210
          > > >
          > > > I spent a few hours hunting for the 63D12000 and also
          > > > cant find it but have some email correspondence on it.
          > > >
          > > > It looks like they already have a bigger capacity battery ,
          > > > the BP90D16000, which is 16Ah 1.2V.
          > > > They can make these into the same 30 battery packs as the
          > > > 63D12000 pack - specs on the BP90D16000 at
          > > >
          > > > http://www.betterpower.com.cn/8027/en/product_1_show.asp?
          > > > product_id=107
          > > >
          > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Phillips"
          > > > <mikep_95133@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > Man that website is slow! But I still could not match that part
          > > > number
          > > > > in that link that you gave.
          > > > >
          > > > > Mike
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy Rutman"
          > > > > <jeremy_spagnet@> wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > You can check their line out at
          > > > > > http://www.betterpower.com.cn/8027/en/product_1.asp?
          > > > Producttype_id=16
          > > > > >
          > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Phillips"
          > > > > > <mikep_95133@> wrote:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > I could not find a link to the Better-Power NiMH battery.
          > Do
          > > > you
          > > > > > have one?
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Mike
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy Rutman"
          > > > > > > <jeremy_spagnet@> wrote:
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > Count me in for 20kWh of NiMh or Li ion.
          > > > > > > > Best prices I've found so far:
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > NiMh:
          > > > > > > > betterpower 63D12000 12Ah 36V 6kg, $107 ea -
          > >72Wh/kg,
          > > > > > $250/kWh
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > Li ion:
          > > > > > > > Huanyu HLP103463 1.8Ah 3.7V 0.046kg, $1.90 ea->144Wh/kg,
          > > > $285/kWh
          > > > > > > > Huanyu HLC32580 4.2Ah 3.7V 0.125kg, $6/ea-
          > >124Wh/kg,$386/kWh
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > waiting on prices from panasonic and saft
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Nick Austin <yahoo@>
          > > > wrote:
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2006 at 10:20:48AM -0700, Kenneth
          > Martin
          > > > wrote:
          > > > > > > > > > I'm also contemplating pack replacement. I'm
          > undecided
          > > > about
          > > > > > Li or
          > > > > > > > > > Ni, and have been hoping someone would come along
          > with a
          > > > > > price
          > > > > > > > > > breakthrough. I might be interested in a group
          > purchase
          > > > even
          > > > > > for
          > > > > > > > lead
          > > > > > > > > > acid.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Yea, if anybody could setup a group valance buy, I
          > would be
          > > > > > > > intrested in that
          > > > > > > > > as well.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Thanks!
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • Jeremy Rutman
          just got a reply from valence...these guys are way more expensive than the chinese. Name Ah max current V Kg Wh Wh/kg # need 10kWH # need 288 V $ each $/Wh $
          Message 4 of 26 , Apr 25 12:53 PM
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            just got a reply from valence...these guys are way more expensive than
            the chinese.
            Name Ah max current V Kg Wh Wh/kg # need 10kWH # need 288 V $ each $/Wh
            $ 10kWh U-charge RT (12rt?) 45.00 12.00 7.00 540.00 77.14 18.52 24.00
            860.00 1.59 15925.93 U-charge U1-12XP 40.00 80 cont 120 max 12.80 6.10
            512.00 83.93 19.53 22.50 860.00 1.68 16796.88 U-charge U24-12XP 100.00
            150 cont 300 max 12.80 15.70 1280.00 81.53 7.81 22.50 2030.00 1.59
            15859.38 U-charge U27-12XP 130.00 150 cont 300 max 12.80 18.60 1664.00
            89.46 6.01 22.50 2550.00 1.53 15324.52 U-charge UEV-18XP 65.00 150 cont
            300 max 19.20 14.80 1248.00 84.32 8.01 15.00 1935.00 1.55 15504.81
            --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > How funny, I asked you for the cost yet it was already posted. I was
            > tired yesterday ;)
            >
            > I have a USE truck. 312v nominal, 200 amps max. So that would be about
            > 9s4p (9 series, 4 parallel). 324v at 240 amps. That's 36 packs at $107
            > each. In round numbers that's $3600 with a discount ;). The problem
            > would be getting the vendor to make them with the rings. I suspect
            > they are tack welding them in an automated process. Not to mention
            > that it would more space efficient to have them made into a 3
            > dimensional brick. So a custom job may not be available. Maybe the
            > price would go down if the cells were sold separately. Just thinking
            > out loud.
            >
            > The other thing is cycle life. There are some cheapo batterys in the
            > world. These should be tested first I think.
            >
            > Mike
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy Rutman"
            > jeremy_spagnet@ wrote:
            > >
            > > For the
            > > betterpower 63D12000 12Ah 36V 6kg $107
            > > the manufacturer claims 60Amps max. (they give '5C' as the limit no
            > > matter what capacity)
            > > If you take a round 10KWh of stored energy then that would
            > > require 24 of these batteries, I guess the force is running
            > > 144V? THen you'd have 6 parallel chains of 4 in series.
            > > I dont know what you guys see practically for max power.
            > > Lets say 20kW? Then at 144V you need 139Amps, if its
            > > coming from 6 parallel chains that comes to 23 amps each
            > > chain which is confortably under the max spec given.
            > >
            > > Thanks for the battlepacks.com link, air cooling the
            > > batteries or at the very least monitoring the temp is called for
            > >
            > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Phillips"
            > > <mikep_95133@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > What kind of cost are you looking at?
            > > >
            > > > The other thing is that 9ah cells are usually low amp, long
            duration
            > > > cells. So they could work with enough in parallel. The other issue
            > > is
            > > > these packs need to be vented and the cells need to be separated
            > > with
            > > > a ring at the top and bottom to allow free airflow. Take a look at
            > > > Battlepacks.com to see what I mean. Very important for longevity.
            > > >
            > > > Mike
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy Rutman"
            > > > <jeremy_spagnet@> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > The 63D12000 is a battery pack, made of 30 1.2V batteries.
            > > > > All I can find now is a lower capcity one,
            > > > > http://www.betterpower.com.cn/8027/en/product_1_show.asp?
            > > > > product_id=210
            > > > >
            > > > > I spent a few hours hunting for the 63D12000 and also
            > > > > cant find it but have some email correspondence on it.
            > > > >
            > > > > It looks like they already have a bigger capacity battery ,
            > > > > the BP90D16000, which is 16Ah 1.2V.
            > > > > They can make these into the same 30 battery packs as the
            > > > > 63D12000 pack - specs on the BP90D16000 at
            > > > >
            > > > > http://www.betterpower.com.cn/8027/en/product_1_show.asp?
            > > > > product_id=107
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Phillips"
            > > > > <mikep_95133@> wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Man that website is slow! But I still could not match that
            part
            > > > > number
            > > > > > in that link that you gave.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Mike
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy Rutman"
            > > > > > <jeremy_spagnet@> wrote:
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > You can check their line out at
            > > > > > > http://www.betterpower.com.cn/8027/en/product_1.asp?
            > > > > Producttype_id=16
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Phillips"
            > > > > > > <mikep_95133@> wrote:
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > I could not find a link to the Better-Power NiMH battery.
            > > Do
            > > > > you
            > > > > > > have one?
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > Mike
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy Rutman"
            > > > > > > > <jeremy_spagnet@> wrote:
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > Count me in for 20kWh of NiMh or Li ion.
            > > > > > > > > Best prices I've found so far:
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > NiMh:
            > > > > > > > > betterpower 63D12000 12Ah 36V 6kg, $107 ea -
            > > >72Wh/kg,
            > > > > > > $250/kWh
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > Li ion:
            > > > > > > > > Huanyu HLP103463 1.8Ah 3.7V 0.046kg, $1.90 ea->144Wh/kg,
            > > > > $285/kWh
            > > > > > > > > Huanyu HLC32580 4.2Ah 3.7V 0.125kg, $6/ea-
            > > >124Wh/kg,$386/kWh
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > waiting on prices from panasonic and saft
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Nick Austin
            <yahoo@>
            > > > > wrote:
            > > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2006 at 10:20:48AM -0700, Kenneth
            > > Martin
            > > > > wrote:
            > > > > > > > > > > I'm also contemplating pack replacement. I'm
            > > undecided
            > > > > about
            > > > > > > Li or
            > > > > > > > > > > Ni, and have been hoping someone would come along
            > > with a
            > > > > > > price
            > > > > > > > > > > breakthrough. I might be interested in a group
            > > purchase
            > > > > even
            > > > > > > for
            > > > > > > > > lead
            > > > > > > > > > > acid.
            > > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > > Yea, if anybody could setup a group valance buy, I
            > > would be
            > > > > > > > > intrested in that
            > > > > > > > > > as well.
            > > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > > Thanks!
            > > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jim Coate
            Keep in mind that Valence is in a different league... they start with a chemistry that is inherently safe(er); they build complete modules with a sophisticated
            Message 5 of 26 , Apr 25 5:40 PM
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              Keep in mind that Valence is in a different league... they start with a
              chemistry that is inherently safe(er); they build complete modules with
              a sophisticated BMS to protect the individual batteries on discharge
              and to allow the use of any regular (ie PbA) charger for charging; their
              batteries have been proven in a variety of on-road EVs and hybrids.

              This includes one Force that has a set of Valence LiIons... perhaps the
              owner will speak up as I can't think of his name at the moment... his 3
              cars are in the EV album.


              Jeremy Rutman wrote:
              > just got a reply from valence...these guys are way more expensive than
              > the chinese.
              >
              > Name Ah max current V Kg Wh Wh/kg # need 10kWH # need 288 V $ each $/Wh
              > $ 10kWh U-charge RT (12rt?) 45.00 12.00 7.00 540.00 77.14 18.52 24.00
              > 860.00 1.59 15925.93 U-charge U1-12XP 40.00 80 cont 120 max 12.80 6.10
              > 512.00 83.93 19.53 22.50 860.00 1.68 16796.88 U-charge U24-12XP 100.00
              > 150 cont 300 max 12.80 15.70 1280.00 81.53 7.81 22.50 2030.00 1.59
              > 15859.38 U-charge U27-12XP 130.00 150 cont 300 max 12.80 18.60 1664.00
              > 89.46 6.01 22.50 2550.00 1.53 15324.52 U-charge UEV-18XP 65.00 150 cont
              > 300 max 19.20 14.80 1248.00 84.32 8.01 15.00 1935.00 1.55 15504.81

              <huge amounts of re-quoting snipped!>


              --
              Jim Coate
              1970's Elec-Trak's
              1997 Solectria Force
              1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
              1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
              http://www.eeevee.com
            • theoldcars@aol.com
              Stephen Taylor has the Solectria with the Valence battery pack. I too have contacted Valence they have a great battery. It is a shame Toyota does not add it
              Message 6 of 26 , Apr 25 5:47 PM
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                Stephen Taylor has the Solectria with the Valence battery pack.

                I too have contacted Valence they have a great battery. It is a shame Toyota
                does not add it to the Prius. Then the price would come way down. My last
                conversation with them they were moving production to China to help lower the
                cost.

                I would have to go back and see if the prices are any less.

                Don


                In a message dated 4/25/2006 5:41:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jbc@...
                writes:

                Keep in mind that Valence is in a different league... they start with a
                chemistry that is inherently safe(er); they build complete modules with
                a sophisticated BMS to protect the individual batteries on discharge
                and to allow the use of any regular (ie PbA) charger for charging; their
                batteries have been proven in a variety of on-road EVs and hybrids.

                This includes one Force that has a set of Valence LiIons... perhaps the
                owner will speak up as I can't think of his name at the moment... his 3
                cars are in the EV album.


                Jeremy Rutman wrote:
                > just got a reply from valence...these guys are way more expensive than
                > the chinese.
                >
                > Name Ah max current V Kg Wh Wh/kg # need 10kWH # need 288 V $ each $/Wh
                > $ 10kWh U-charge RT (12rt?) 45.00 12.00 7.00 540.00 77.14 18.52 24.00
                > 860.00 1.59 15925.93 U-charge U1-12XP 40.00 80 cont 120 max 12.80 6.10
                > 512.00 83.93 19.53 22.50 860.00 1.68 16796.88 U-charge U24-12XP 100.00
                > 150 cont 300 max 12.80 15.70 1280.00 81.53 7.81 22.50 2030.00 1.59
                > 15859.38 U-charge U27-12XP 130.00 150 cont 300 max 12.80 18.60 1664.00
                > 89.46 6.01 22.50 2550.00 1.53 15324.52 U-charge UEV-18XP 65.00 150 cont
                > 300 max 19.20 14.80 1248.00 84.32 8.01 15.00 1935.00 1.55 15504.81

                <huge amounts of re-quoting snipped!>


                --
                Jim Coate
                1970's Elec-Trak's
                1997 Solectria Force
                1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
                1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
                http://www.eeevee.com




                Yahoo! Groups Links











                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • theoldcars@aol.com
                I had a price quote from 1 year and 4 months ago. The prices look very close to the same amount. Question on the price was this for quantity pricing? Back
                Message 7 of 26 , Apr 25 6:04 PM
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                  I had a price quote from 1 year and 4 months ago. The prices look very close
                  to the same amount. Question on the price was this for quantity pricing?
                  Back then if you bought over 50 there was a price break. I did not inquire about
                  larger orders because it did not seem possible there would be very many
                  people willing to spend this much.

                  If the prices were about half I would seriously look at doing this.

                  Don

                  In a message dated 4/25/2006 5:41:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jbc@...
                  writes:

                  Keep in mind that Valence is in a different league... they start with a
                  chemistry that is inherently safe(er); they build complete modules with
                  a sophisticated BMS to protect the individual batteries on discharge
                  and to allow the use of any regular (ie PbA) charger for charging; their
                  batteries have been proven in a variety of on-road EVs and hybrids.

                  This includes one Force that has a set of Valence LiIons... perhaps the
                  owner will speak up as I can't think of his name at the moment... his 3
                  cars are in the EV album.


                  Jeremy Rutman wrote:
                  > just got a reply from valence...these guys are way more expensive than
                  > the chinese.
                  >
                  > Name Ah max current V Kg Wh Wh/kg # need 10kWH # need 288 V $ each $/Wh
                  > $ 10kWh U-charge RT (12rt?) 45.00 12.00 7.00 540.00 77.14 18.52 24.00
                  > 860.00 1.59 15925.93 U-charge U1-12XP 40.00 80 cont 120 max 12.80 6.10
                  > 512.00 83.93 19.53 22.50 860.00 1.68 16796.88 U-charge U24-12XP 100.00
                  > 150 cont 300 max 12.80 15.70 1280.00 81.53 7.81 22.50 2030.00 1.59
                  > 15859.38 U-charge U27-12XP 130.00 150 cont 300 max 12.80 18.60 1664.00
                  > 89.46 6.01 22.50 2550.00 1.53 15324.52 U-charge UEV-18XP 65.00 150 cont
                  > 300 max 19.20 14.80 1248.00 84.32 8.01 15.00 1935.00 1.55 15504.81

                  <huge amounts of re-quoting snipped!>


                  --
                  Jim Coate
                  1970's Elec-Trak's
                  1997 Solectria Force
                  1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
                  1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
                  http://www.eeevee.com




                  Yahoo! Groups Links









                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jeremy Rutman
                  Ok guys It looks like prices for cheapo chinese NiMh or Li ion are comparable to what people are paying for the Deka 8G27 ($296/kWh). Saft and Panasonic have
                  Message 8 of 26 , Apr 26 4:13 AM
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                    Ok guys
                    It looks like prices for cheapo chinese NiMh or Li ion are
                    comparable to what people are paying for the Deka 8G27 ($296/kWh).
                    Saft and Panasonic have yet to answer but probably their prices
                    are as far out as Valence.

                    Issues -
                    1. trust/reliability/how do we know these wont explode
                    A. testing the batts
                    I wrote to the companies and have asked for samples/minimum orders.
                    I work in a fuel cell lab and can do the testing here.
                    There's a guy on the web somewhere who does comprehensive
                    testing of chargers and batts, I'll try to dig him up too.

                    B. Been there done that
                    There are some guys on the austinev.org list who have done similar
                    things - taking a bunch of NiMh or NiCd RC-style packs and running off
                    those instead of lead acid. I'll try to get in touch with them and
                    see what they have to say.

                    2.
                    Allowing aeration / cooling / form factor
                    If it comes down to making a holder for a bunch of D batteries
                    with space for air cooling I can do it. We've got a machine shop
                    here that can do it in aluminum or teflon
                    or whatever. I could do it in the lead acid 12V shape so it fits
                    people's current setups too. There's some RC enthusiasts here who
                    can help me out on the welding of battery contacts together.



                    My munged post on Valence prices:
                    (the yahoo rich-text editor really is beta...)

                    Valence Li ion prices
                    U-charge 12RT 45Ah 12V 7kg $860
                    U-charge U1-12XP 40Ah 12.8V 6.1kg $860
                    U-charge U24-12XP 100Ah 12.8V 15.7kg $2030
                    U-charge U27-12XP 130Ah 12.8V 18.6kg $2550
                    U-charge UEV-18XP 65Ah 19.2V 14.8kg $1935
                    -> ~$1600/kWh for Valence Li ion


                    >Gel Cells:
                    >Deka Dominator 8G27M 57Ahr@1hr
                    >45Ahr pracical 12V 28.7kg, $160 ea
                    > -> 18.8Wh/kg, $296/kWh

                    > The problem
                    > would be getting the vendor to make them with the rings. I suspect
                    > they are tack welding them in an automated process. Not to mention
                    > that it would more space efficient to have them made into a 3
                    > dimensional brick. So a custom job may not be available. Maybe the
                    > price would go down if the cells were sold separately. Just thinking
                    > out loud.
                    >
                    > The other thing is cycle life. There are some cheapo batterys in the
                    > world. These should be tested first I think.
                    >
                    > Mike
                  • Stephen Taylor
                    I actually have three Forces. One Lead Acid, one NiCD and one Valence Lithium. I can tell you that the Lithium Batteries make the car so much easier to
                    Message 9 of 26 , Apr 26 7:33 AM
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                      I actually have three Forces. One Lead Acid, one NiCD and one Valence Lithium. I can tell you that the Lithium Batteries make the car so much easier to drive. The car is peppier and of course the 100 mile plus range is great. Because the batteries come in the group 27 size they are a drop in replacement for the lead acid batteries. The only trick was to install a couple of relays that are attached to the BMUs that would cut power to the controller or charger in an emergency.

                      I'm currently waiting on a second order of these batteries for my Sunrise. The battery BMU system has been redesigned to be more friendly to large strings of batteries.

                      Stephen Taylor

                      theoldcars@... wrote:


                      Stephen Taylor has the Solectria with the Valence battery pack.

                      I too have contacted Valence they have a great battery. It is a shame Toyota
                      does not add it to the Prius. Then the price would come way down. My last
                      conversation with them they were moving production to China to help lower the
                      cost.

                      I would have to go back and see if the prices are any less.

                      Don


                      In a message dated 4/25/2006 5:41:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jbc@...
                      writes:

                      Keep in mind that Valence is in a different league... they start with a
                      chemistry that is inherently safe(er); they build complete modules with
                      a sophisticated BMS to protect the individual batteries on discharge
                      and to allow the use of any regular (ie PbA) charger for charging; their
                      batteries have been proven in a variety of on-road EVs and hybrids.

                      This includes one Force that has a set of Valence LiIons... perhaps the
                      owner will speak up as I can't think of his name at the moment... his 3
                      cars are in the EV album.


                      Jeremy Rutman wrote:
                      > just got a reply from valence...these guys are way more expensive than
                      > the chinese.
                      >
                      > Name Ah max current V Kg Wh Wh/kg # need 10kWH # need 288 V $ each $/Wh
                      > $ 10kWh U-charge RT (12rt?) 45.00 12.00 7.00 540.00 77.14 18.52 24.00
                      > 860.00 1.59 15925.93 U-charge U1-12XP 40.00 80 cont 120 max 12.80 6.10
                      > 512.00 83.93 19.53 22.50 860.00 1.68 16796.88 U-charge U24-12XP 100.00
                      > 150 cont 300 max 12.80 15.70 1280.00 81.53 7.81 22.50 2030.00 1.59
                      > 15859.38 U-charge U27-12XP 130.00 150 cont 300 max 12.80 18.60 1664.00
                      > 89.46 6.01 22.50 2550.00 1.53 15324.52 U-charge UEV-18XP 65.00 150 cont
                      > 300 max 19.20 14.80 1248.00 84.32 8.01 15.00 1935.00 1.55 15504.81

                      <huge amounts of re-quoting snipped!>


                      --
                      Jim Coate
                      1970's Elec-Trak's
                      1997 Solectria Force
                      1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
                      1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
                      http://www.eeevee.com




                      Yahoo! Groups Links











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                    • sunnybanklad
                      Did anyone set up a group buy already? ... LD
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jun 9, 2006
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                        Did anyone set up a group buy already?

                        --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy Rutman"
                        <jeremy_spagnet@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Count me in for 20kWh of NiMh or Li ion.
                        > Best prices I've found so far:
                        >
                        > NiMh:
                        > betterpower 63D12000 12Ah 36V 6kg, $107 ea ->72Wh/kg, $250/kWh
                        >
                        > Li ion:
                        > Huanyu HLP103463 1.8Ah 3.7V 0.046kg, $1.90 ea->144Wh/kg, $285/kWh
                        > Huanyu HLC32580 4.2Ah 3.7V 0.125kg, $6/ea->124Wh/kg,$386/kWh
                        >
                        > waiting on prices from panasonic and saft
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Nick Austin <yahoo@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2006 at 10:20:48AM -0700, Kenneth Martin wrote:
                        > > > I'm also contemplating pack replacement. I'm undecided about Li or
                        > > > Ni, and have been hoping someone would come along with a price
                        > > > breakthrough. I might be interested in a group purchase even for
                        > lead
                        > > > acid.
                        > >
                        > > Yea, if anybody could setup a group valance buy, I would be
                        > intrested in that
                        > > as well.
                        > >
                        > > Thanks!
                        > >
                        >
                        LD
                      • Peter Belden
                        Steven, How much were the Valence Lithiums? Last I heard I think they were $32K for a full set for the Force. Any evidence out there on what the life of
                        Message 11 of 26 , Jun 9, 2006
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                          Steven,

                          How much were the Valence Lithiums? Last I heard I think they were $32K for
                          a full set for the Force. Any evidence out there on what the life of these
                          batteries is in a force?

                          Peter


                          On 4/26/06, Stephen Taylor <sparrow262@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I actually have three Forces. One Lead Acid, one NiCD and one Valence
                          > Lithium. I can tell you that the Lithium Batteries make the car so much
                          > easier to drive. The car is peppier and of course the 100 mile plus range
                          > is great. Because the batteries come in the group 27 size they are a drop
                          > in replacement for the lead acid batteries. The only trick was to install a
                          > couple of relays that are attached to the BMUs that would cut power to the
                          > controller or charger in an emergency.
                          >
                          > I'm currently waiting on a second order of these batteries for my
                          > Sunrise. The battery BMU system has been redesigned to be more friendly to
                          > large strings of batteries.
                          >
                          > Stephen Taylor
                          >
                          >
                          > theoldcars@... wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Stephen Taylor has the Solectria with the Valence battery pack.
                          >
                          > I too have contacted Valence they have a great battery. It is a shame
                          > Toyota
                          > does not add it to the Prius. Then the price would come way down. My last
                          >
                          > conversation with them they were moving production to China to help lower
                          > the
                          > cost.
                          >
                          > I would have to go back and see if the prices are any less.
                          >
                          > Don
                          >
                          >
                          > In a message dated 4/25/2006 5:41:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
                          > jbc@...
                          > writes:
                          >
                          > Keep in mind that Valence is in a different league... they start with a
                          > chemistry that is inherently safe(er); they build complete modules with
                          > a sophisticated BMS to protect the individual batteries on discharge
                          > and to allow the use of any regular (ie PbA) charger for charging; their
                          >
                          > batteries have been proven in a variety of on-road EVs and hybrids.
                          >
                          > This includes one Force that has a set of Valence LiIons... perhaps the
                          > owner will speak up as I can't think of his name at the moment... his 3
                          > cars are in the EV album.
                          >
                          >
                          > Jeremy Rutman wrote:
                          > > just got a reply from valence...these guys are way more expensive than
                          > > the chinese.
                          > >
                          > > Name Ah max current V Kg Wh Wh/kg # need 10kWH # need 288 V $ each $/Wh
                          > > $ 10kWh U-charge RT (12rt?) 45.00 12.00 7.00 540.00 77.14 18.52
                          > 24.00
                          > > 860.00 1.59 15925.93 U-charge U1-12XP 40.00 80 cont 120 max 12.80
                          > 6.10
                          > > 512.00 83.93 19.53 22.50 860.00 1.68 16796.88 U-charge U24-12XP 100.00
                          > > 150 cont 300 max 12.80 15.70 1280.00 81.53 7.81 22.50 2030.00 1.59
                          > > 15859.38 U-charge U27-12XP 130.00 150 cont 300 max 12.80 18.60 1664.00
                          > > 89.46 6.01 22.50 2550.00 1.53 15324.52 U-charge UEV-18XP 65.00 150
                          > cont
                          > > 300 max 19.20 14.80 1248.00 84.32 8.01 15.00 1935.00 1.55 15504.81
                          >
                          > <huge amounts of re-quoting snipped!>
                          >
                          >
                          > --
                          > Jim Coate
                          > 1970's Elec-Trak's
                          > 1997 Solectria Force
                          > 1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
                          > 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
                          > http://www.eeevee.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > SPONSORED LINKS
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                          > cell Automotive fuel tank Automotive car cover Electric car
                          >
                          > ---------------------------------
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                          >
                          >
                          > Visit your group "solectria_ev" on the web.
                          >
                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > solectria_ev-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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                          >
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                          >
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                        • Stephen Taylor
                          I think the price of the 13 U27s needed for a Force is down to something clser to $25,000. The batteries now have a production look and the Battery Management
                          Message 12 of 26 , Jun 10, 2006
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                            I think the price of the 13 U27s needed for a Force is down to something clser to $25,000. The batteries now have a production look and the Battery Management Unit, which is included in the price and inside each battery, is far superior to the one a got in my Force.

                            It is way to early for me to tell what my life expectancy will be with these batteries.

                            Stephen Taylor

                            Peter Belden <pbelden@...> wrote:
                            Steven,

                            How much were the Valence Lithiums? Last I heard I think they were $32K for
                            a full set for the Force. Any evidence out there on what the life of these
                            batteries is in a force?

                            Peter

                            On 4/26/06, Stephen Taylor <sparrow262@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I actually have three Forces. One Lead Acid, one NiCD and one Valence
                            > Lithium. I can tell you that the Lithium Batteries make the car so much
                            > easier to drive. The car is peppier and of course the 100 mile plus range
                            > is great. Because the batteries come in the group 27 size they are a drop
                            > in replacement for the lead acid batteries. The only trick was to install a
                            > couple of relays that are attached to the BMUs that would cut power to the
                            > controller or charger in an emergency.
                            >
                            > I'm currently waiting on a second order of these batteries for my
                            > Sunrise. The battery BMU system has been redesigned to be more friendly to
                            > large strings of batteries.
                            >
                            > Stephen Taylor
                            >
                            >
                            > theoldcars@... wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Stephen Taylor has the Solectria with the Valence battery pack.
                            >
                            > I too have contacted Valence they have a great battery. It is a shame
                            > Toyota
                            > does not add it to the Prius. Then the price would come way down. My last
                            >
                            > conversation with them they were moving production to China to help lower
                            > the
                            > cost.
                            >
                            > I would have to go back and see if the prices are any less.
                            >
                            > Don
                            >
                            >
                            > In a message dated 4/25/2006 5:41:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
                            > jbc@...
                            > writes:
                            >
                            > Keep in mind that Valence is in a different league... they start with a
                            > chemistry that is inherently safe(er); they build complete modules with
                            > a sophisticated BMS to protect the individual batteries on discharge
                            > and to allow the use of any regular (ie PbA) charger for charging; their
                            >
                            > batteries have been proven in a variety of on-road EVs and hybrids.
                            >
                            > This includes one Force that has a set of Valence LiIons... perhaps the
                            > owner will speak up as I can't think of his name at the moment... his 3
                            > cars are in the EV album.
                            >
                            >
                            > Jeremy Rutman wrote:
                            > > just got a reply from valence...these guys are way more expensive than
                            > > the chinese.
                            > >
                            > > Name Ah max current V Kg Wh Wh/kg # need 10kWH # need 288 V $ each $/Wh
                            > > $ 10kWh U-charge RT (12rt?) 45.00 12.00 7.00 540.00 77.14 18.52
                            > 24.00
                            > > 860.00 1.59 15925.93 U-charge U1-12XP 40.00 80 cont 120 max 12.80
                            > 6.10
                            > > 512.00 83.93 19.53 22.50 860.00 1.68 16796.88 U-charge U24-12XP 100.00
                            > > 150 cont 300 max 12.80 15.70 1280.00 81.53 7.81 22.50 2030.00 1.59
                            > > 15859.38 U-charge U27-12XP 130.00 150 cont 300 max 12.80 18.60 1664.00
                            > > 89.46 6.01 22.50 2550.00 1.53 15324.52 U-charge UEV-18XP 65.00 150
                            > cont
                            > > 300 max 19.20 14.80 1248.00 84.32 8.01 15.00 1935.00 1.55 15504.81
                            >
                            > <huge amounts of re-quoting snipped!>
                            >
                            >
                            > --
                            > Jim Coate
                            > 1970's Elec-Trak's
                            > 1997 Solectria Force
                            > 1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
                            > 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
                            > http://www.eeevee.com
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > SPONSORED LINKS
                            > Hybrid electric car Automotive car part Automotive fuel
                            > cell Automotive fuel tank Automotive car cover Electric car
                            >
                            > ---------------------------------
                            > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                            >
                            >
                            > Visit your group "solectria_ev" on the web.
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > solectria_ev-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                            >
                            >
                            > ---------------------------------
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ---------------------------------
                            > Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great
                            > rates starting at 1¢/min.
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                            > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                            >
                            >
                            > - Visit your group "solectria_ev<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/solectria_ev>"
                            > on the web.
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