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Re: applicability of gel cell experiences (was Digest Number 672)

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  • ldr214
    Mark, I m going to make one of those rash generalizations so you will need to do some more home work on your own. From what I read the power train in your car
    Message 1 of 6 , Feb 17, 2006
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      Mark,
      I'm going to make one of those rash generalizations so you will need
      to do some more home work on your own.
      From what I read the power train in your car is a D/C type which means
      that it has a high amperage draw at times. In a sealed valve regulated
      type battery this is better supplied by
      a agm type battery such as the optima yellow top or other capable
      brands. The Deka Dominator or MK staved gel type battery doesn't have
      the ability to flow as much amperage in a short burst as the agm type.
      But it will out last a agm when used in a vehicle like the later Force
      models which have a A/C motor and controller, which like you said
      controls the amperage draw. They don't need to draw amperage at as
      high a rate. The gel battery also has some charging characteristics
      that are more "user friendly" and individual regulation isn't usually
      necessary. Under the load conditions that the A/C drive system
      subjects the gel battery to you get a car with a Pba battery pack that
      has reasonable range and in most cases a lot of longevity, the late
      year Solectria Force being a good example. Because of the unique
      differences between the D/C and A/C drive systems you will need to be
      careful to match the battery requirements to your system and not to
      those of others.
      In short the gel battery may be a total bust if the characteristics of
      your car don't met its abilities. Here is a link that might explain
      the A/C difference better than I did.
      http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/battery.shtml

      Mike
      97 Force
      Pba, 18600 miles

      To the best of my knowledge MK brand is made by East Penn along with
      the Deka Dominator.

      --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Freidberg" <mark58150@...>
      wrote:
      >
      >
      > Gary,
      >
      > This is great information, thanks a lot. I've followed the Solectria
      > group for a while now with interest in purchasing a Force but then in
      > December a BAT International Geo Metro was posted on ebay and I ended up
      > the winning bidder.
      >
      > Thankyou Don Blazer as well for the links in your post. They list a
      > number of EVs including the one I purchased. Folks can see what my Geo
      > looks like and see the specs here:
      >
      > http://ev.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/batmetwt.pdf
      > <http://ev.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/batmetwt.pdf>
      >
      > I purchased the Geo without batts and thus some of my interest in the
      > gel cells. Although I must say my interest in the Solectria gel cell
      > outcomes predates this purchase. I follow the EV discussion list as
      > well, and there, most folks are focused on AGMs and regulators, and
      > flooded batts as well, and there is some skepticism about being able to
      > use gel cells without regs.
      >
      > Quite frankly I have poured over the MK battery website with interest
      > since they make both AGMs and gel cells. So it is great to see Gary has
      > put so many miles on his MK gels. Has anyone else?
      >
      > My immediate concern right now boils down to what performance would a
      > gel cell pack give in my Geo metro. I wonder how applicable Solectria
      > experiences are in making an estimate.
      >
      > The 2 battery boxes in my Geo appear to be sized for group 34 batts as
      > the height dimension is about 8 inches. One of the boxes is actually 2
      > levels, upper and lower. So could I even use regs if I wanted to? I
      > haven't checked their space requirements yet. But even if so, I just
      > have not been enthusiastic about going the AGM plus regs route. Thus my
      > interest in the gel cell experiences of list members. I suppose I could
      > use AGMs without regs and use Schumachers as modular chargers at home on
      > each battery. I need to check if my Russco charger would be suitable for
      > charging the gel cells.
      >
      > From the testing specs it appears the Geo was run at 132 volts using
      > Optimas. I'm guessing it was configured in 2 parallel strings or maybe
      > buddy pairs. I may be able to fit 24 for 144 volts, and 144v is the
      > controller limit.
      >
      > Its great that Gary has a 144 volt 2 dr hatchback because its almost
      > like a real world opportunity to compare performance results between ac
      > and dc drive systems and how gel cells do in the 2 systems. Though there
      > are some differences. One is my Geo has a 3 speed automatic. I have been
      > able to test drive it a little around my neighborhood because i was able
      > toinstall 8 surplus Hawkers. The transmission slips a little bit from
      > dead stop until the drive motor rpms increase, but then tightens up
      > under way and seems to be fine.
      >
      > I'll be interested to read list member's replies.
      >
      > Best regards,
      >
      > Mark Freidberg
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, gjc0@ wrote:
      > >
      > > Mark Freidberg:
      > >
      > > My 8G27 Gel Batteries are from MK batteries, and have 13,000 miles on
      > them. By looking at MKs web site and their expected cycle life, I am
      > estimating that I can get 20K - 30K miles out of the set. So I am about
      > half way there.
      > >
      > > MK claims that their batteries are carefully made such that they are
      > all well matched and do not need to be equalized like the flooded lead
      > acids. I have connected monitoring wires to my twelve series batteries
      > so I can read the individual voltages on each battery. I see a
      > difference of about 0.15 volts from highest to lowest when they are
      > fully charged. When they are deeply discharged, the difference climbs to
      > 0.35 volts at first and then decreases as they sit.
      > >
      > > I love the idea of not having to add water, worry about outgassing in
      > normal operation, or deal with corrosion problems. I do pay for this in
      > more expensive batteries, with less capacity.
      > >
      > > Sincerely,
      > > Gary Carlson
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: Mark Freidberg mark58150@
      > > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 22:52:06 -0800 (PST)
      > > Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Digest Number 672
      > >
      > >
      > > Does anyone have experience running with gel cells other then Deka?
      > >
      > > Has anyone had negative experiences with the Deka gels such as
      > markedly
      > > shortened cycle life?
      > >
      > > Has anyone put regulators on their gel cells to try to maximize cycle
      > life?
      > >
      > > Thanks for the prior replies.
      > >
      > > Mark Freidberg
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com wrote:
      > > There are 8 messages in this issue.
      > >
      > > Topics in this digest:
      > >
      > > 1. Question about some performance specs
      > > From: "Mark Freidberg"
      > > 2. Re: Question about some performance specs
      > > From: Butch P
      > > 3. Re: Question about some performance specs
      > > From: Stephen Taylor
      > > 4. Re: Question about some performance specs
      > > From: theoldcars@
      > > 5. Re: Question about some performance specs
      > > From: gjc0@
      > > 6. Re: Question about some performance specs
      > > From: umarc
      > > 7. chargers
      > > From: Ken Olum
      > > 8. Re: chargers
      > > From: gjc0@
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > >
      > > Message: 1
      > > Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 17:22:02 -0000
      > > From: "Mark Freidberg"
      > > Subject: Question about some performance specs
      > >
      > > Hi,
      > >
      > > Is there a consensus amongst list members over the typical range the
      > > Solectrias achieve at sub-highway speeds when the battery packs are
      > > close to like-new condition?
      > >
      > > What are the typical amp draws from the Deka group 27 gel cell packs
      > > and what are the peak draws? I don't recall if the Forces are
      > > running at 144v or 156v. Does the peak represent whatever the gel
      > cells
      > > are able to deliver or is it capped by the motor controller?
      > >
      > > What is the curb weight of the 4-dr forces including the battery pack?
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Mark Freidberg
      > > EAA member
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > >
      > > Message: 2
      > > Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 09:41:19 -0800 (PST)
      > > From: Butch P
      > > Subject: Re: Question about some performance specs
      > >
      > > Mark,
      > > Check the stats @ http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/636.html
      > > Butch
      > >
      > > Mark Freidberg wrote: Hi,
      > >
      > > Is there a consensus amongst list members over the typical range the
      > > Solectrias achieve at sub-highway speeds when the battery packs are
      > > close to like-new condition?
      > >
      > > What are the typical amp draws from the Deka group 27 gel cell packs
      > > and what are the peak draws? I don't recall if the Forces are
      > > running at 144v or 156v. Does the peak represent whatever the gel
      > cells
      > > are able to deliver or is it capped by the motor controller?
      > >
      > > What is the curb weight of the 4-dr forces including the battery pack?
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Mark Freidberg
      > > EAA member
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > SPONSORED LINKS
      > > Automotive car part Automotive fuel cell Automotive fuel tank
      > Automotive car
      > > cover Electric car Alternative fuels
      > >
      > > ---------------------------------
      > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
      > >
      > >
      > > Visit your group "solectria_ev" on the web.
      > >
      > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > solectria_ev-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > >
      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
      > >
      > >
      > > ---------------------------------
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      > >
      > >
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      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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      > >
      > >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > >
      > > Message: 3
      > > Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 10:47:48 -0800 (PST)
      > > From: Stephen Taylor
      > > Subject: Re: Question about some performance specs
      > >
      > > Mark
      > >
      > > The motor controller caps the amp draw based on whether you are in the
      > Power,
      > > Normal or Economy Mode.
      > >
      > > My opinion is that the Lead Acid Force will do 40 to 50 miles at below
      > highway
      > > speeds under very good conditions and conservative driving, but you
      > don't want
      > > to do it often. If asked I generally say 20 to 30 miles is a day in
      > and day out
      > > range for the car.
      > >
      > > Stephen Taylor
      > >
      > >
      > > Mark Freidberg wrote:
      > > Hi,
      > >
      > > Is there a consensus amongst list members over the typical range the
      > > Solectrias achieve at sub-highway speeds when the battery packs are
      > > close to like-new condition?
      > >
      > > What are the typical amp draws from the Deka group 27 gel cell packs
      > > and what are the peak draws? I don't recall if the Forces are
      > > running at 144v or 156v. Does the peak represent whatever the gel
      > cells
      > > are able to deliver or is it capped by the motor controller?
      > >
      > > What is the curb weight of the 4-dr forces including the battery pack?
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Mark Freidberg
      > > EAA member
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > SPONSORED LINKS
      > > Automotive car part Automotive fuel cell Automotive fuel tank
      > Automotive car
      > > cover Electric car Alternative fuels
      > >
      > > ---------------------------------
      > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
      > >
      > >
      > > Visit your group "solectria_ev" on the web.
      > >
      > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > solectria_ev-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > >
      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
      > >
      > >
      > > ---------------------------------
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ---------------------------------
      > > Yahoo! Mail
      > > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > >
      > > Message: 4
      > > Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 14:22:24 EST
      > > From: theoldcars@
      > > Subject: Re: Question about some performance specs
      > >
      > >
      > > Hello Mark
      > >
      > > You can go to this site and look at specs for Solectria as well as
      > many
      > > other electric vehicles.
      > >
      >
      _http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:g_Eqtd2ciUEJ:ev.inel.gov/vehicles.s\
      > html+s-10+ev+test+report&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2&ie=UTF-8_
      > >
      > >
      >
      (http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:g_Eqtd2ciUEJ:ev.inel.gov/vehicles.s\
      > html+s-10+
      > > ev+test+report&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2&ie=UTF-8)
      > >
      > > Don
      > >
      > > In a message dated 2/16/2006 9:23:02 AM Pacific Standard Time,
      > > mark58150@ writes:
      > >
      > > Hi,
      > >
      > > Is there a consensus amongst list members over the typical range the
      > > Solectrias achieve at sub-highway speeds when the battery packs are
      > > close to like-new condition?
      > >
      > > What are the typical amp draws from the Deka group 27 gel cell packs
      > > and what are the peak draws? I don't recall if the Forces are
      > > running at 144v or 156v. Does the peak represent whatever the gel
      > cells
      > > are able to deliver or is it capped by the motor controller?
      > >
      > > What is the curb weight of the 4-dr forces including the battery pack?
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > >
      > > Message: 5
      > > Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 17:21:44 -0500
      > > From: gjc0@
      > > Subject: Re: Question about some performance specs
      > >
      > > Greetings:
      > >
      > > I have an older 1992 2 Door Solectria Force with 8G27 Gel cells.
      > Twelve in all
      > > brings the system voltage to 144. My maximum estimated mileage is 40 -
      > 50 miles
      > > under good conditions. (80 degrees F, Long flat road with few / no
      > stops). My
      > > typical commuting pattern is 12 miles or 20 miles depending upon the
      > day. This
      > > brings the SOC to 50 - 60% since I use the lights and heater
      > frequently in 32F
      > > weather (Boise, Idaho).
      > >
      > > With a Zivan NG3 240 volt charger I can charge at a rate of 16 amps
      > for an hour
      > > or two. This translates into 2.5 KWatts. With with fairly rapid
      > charging I have
      > > had days where I make morning, afternoon and evening trips while
      > charging in
      > > between times. With this type of driving profile, I have put over 50
      > miles every
      > > day on the vehicle.
      > >
      > > Now if Zivan only made an NG3 that can take either 120 or 240 volts.
      > >
      > > Sincerely,
      > > Gary Carlson
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: theoldcars@
      > > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 14:22:24 EST
      > > Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Question about some performance specs
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Hello Mark
      > >
      > > You can go to this site and look at specs for Solectria as well as
      > many
      > > other electric vehicles.
      > >
      >
      _http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:g_Eqtd2ciUEJ:ev.inel.gov/vehicles.s\
      > html+s-10+ev+test+report&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2&ie=UTF-8_
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      (http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:g_Eqtd2ciUEJ:ev.inel.gov/vehicles.s\
      > html+s-10+
      > > ev+test+report&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2&ie=UTF-8)
      > >
      > > Don
      > >
      > > In a message dated 2/16/2006 9:23:02 AM Pacific Standard Time,
      > > mark58150@ writes:
      > >
      > > Hi,
      > >
      > > Is there a consensus amongst list members over the typical range the
      > > Solectrias achieve at sub-highway speeds when the battery packs are
      > > close to like-new condition?
      > >
      > > What are the typical amp draws from the Deka group 27 gel cell packs
      > > and what are the peak draws? I don't recall if the Forces are
      > > running at 144v or 156v. Does the peak represent whatever the gel
      > cells
      > > are able to deliver or is it capped by the motor controller?
      > >
      > > What is the curb weight of the 4-dr forces including the battery pack?
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > >
      > > Message: 6
      > > Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 17:37:26 -0500 (EST)
      > > From: umarc
      > > Subject: Re: Question about some performance specs
      > >
      > > On Thu, 16 Feb 2006, gjc0@ wrote:
      > >
      > > > Now if Zivan only made an NG3 that can take either 120 or 240 volts.
      > >
      > > I use a 120-volt Zivan NG3 on my 1992 Force; I decided to sacrifice
      > > charging time in order to be able to recharge at work.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Rob Landry
      > > umarc@
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > >
      > > Message: 7
      > > Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 20:04:36 -0500
      > > From: Ken Olum
      > > Subject: chargers
      > >
      > > From: gjc0@
      > > Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 17:21:44 -0500
      > >
      > > Now if Zivan only made an NG3 that can take either 120 or 240 volts.
      > >
      > > You could get a PFC-20 (http://manzanitamicro.com) instead, and draw
      > > 20A input from either 120 or 240.
      > >
      > > Actually, I be interested to know if anyone has a PFC series charger
      > > on a Force, and how you like it.
      > >
      > > Ken
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > >
      > > Message: 8
      > > Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 22:42:17 -0500
      > > From: gjc0@
      > > Subject: Re: chargers
      > >
      > > Thank you Ken Olum for referring me to the PFC-20 specs.
      > >
      > > The PFC-20/30/50 are not isolated. It sounds like when you plug it
      > into
      > > 240volts, one phase of the 240 volt circuit is connect directly to
      > your negative
      > > battery terminal through the bridge rectifiers. Although my batteries
      > are
      > > isolated from the frame and 12 volt system, I prefer a transformer
      > between me
      > > and the power company.
      > >
      > > Also, my NG3 has a temperature sensor to control the charging voltage
      > during the
      > > CV charging stage. My 8G27 batteries, like most Gel batteries are much
      > more
      > > sensitive to overcharging than good old flooded lead acid.
      > >
      > > For now, I will keep looking.
      > >
      > > Thank you,
      > > Gary Carlson
      > >
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: Ken Olum
      > > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
      > > Cc: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 20:04:36 -0500
      > > Subject: [solectria_ev] chargers
      > >
      > >
      > > From: gjc0@
      > > Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 17:21:44 -0500
      > >
      > > Now if Zivan only made an NG3 that can take either 120 or 240 volts.
      > >
      > > You could get a PFC-20 (http://manzanitamicro.com) instead, and draw
      > > 20A input from either 120 or 240.
      > >
      > > Actually, I be interested to know if anyone has a PFC series charger
      > > on a Force, and how you like it.
      > >
      > > Ken
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
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