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Re: [solectria_ev] use of generator

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  • Jay Grossman
    Consider Plug in Hybrids as an alternative to all electric vehicles. First 20 or 30 miles on all electric and milage above 20 would run on ICE. Most trips
    Message 1 of 29 , Jan 12, 2006
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      Consider Plug in Hybrids as an alternative to all electric vehicles. First 20 or 30 miles on all electric and milage above 20 would run on ICE. Most trips daily are less than 20 miles. Plug in at night to recharge. Calcars in California is reengineering a Prius as a Plug in hybrid.

      RE:Comments concerning coal polution to create electricity - what about the polution generated in the extraction and production of gasoline. Wind generation of electricity is also a clean alternative to coal production.
      Jay H Grossman

      theoldcars@... wrote:

      Not everywhere on the West coast has a lot of charging locations.

      In Oregon with almost 100,000 square miles and we have one charging location
      in the state that is open 24/7. Yet In the last two years I have replaced
      almost all my driving of an ICE with electric.

      It is not fair to compare EV use and coal. There is plenty of excess power
      at night when most our charging is done.

      I would not say the EV experiment has failed. Really it was restarted just a
      little to soon. Better batteries will be made and produced in numbers that
      are affordable and it will change everything. Maybe in one year or ten years it
      is just a matter of time but it will happen.

      It would be great to figure out a way to add range but a generator from the
      numbers I have run really do not help much. I have put a lot of hours looking
      at generators and their output. My conclusion is a better range extender
      would use the existing ability of the Solectria to generate its own power.

      You would have less weight & conversion of power it is more efficient. A 13
      horsepower Honda motor weighs under 100 pounds. This is complete fuel tank
      and all for less than 600 dollars.

      Don





      In a message dated 1/12/2006 6:59:20 AM Pacific Standard Time,
      cfrkeepr@... writes:

      That all may well be true, but until you get stuck with a dead battery
      (batteries are the weak link) , having a backup is invaluable. Absolutely
      emissions are the main reason, but having a practical means of transportation is the
      only way the general public is going to consider the electric vehicle. The
      intent is not to use the generator fulltime, only for those instances of
      unexpected failure, it has happened to me several times. I am one of the few Force
      owners with not only a trailer hitch, but solar panels (OEM) too and a tow
      bar which I believe is a necessity. For those of you on the west coast where
      EVs are more common more power to you with charge stations galore. On the east
      coast its every man for himself. Face it the EV is an experiment, that for
      now is failing. It is our persistence that is keepping it alive. Sure we don't
      emit DIRECTLY, but the coal burned to produce the electricity does. The true
      value of driving electric is it's effieciency, which is why the hybrids
      are becoming so popular they give the give the "in town" efficiency with the
      ICE range. Our Solectria's are now historical museum displays waiting for a
      place. Maybe just maybe with a little inovation from a few enterprising
      individuals we can keep them going and maybe even make them more practical. It a
      sure thing that the Big Three are not going back to EVs.

      Bouton Baldridge


      rod864 <rod864@...> wrote:
      --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "d. Bouton Baldridge"
      <cfrkeepr@y...> wrote:
      >
      > Say, has anyone tried using a generator to charge while underway?

      If low emission driving is important to you (and for most of us it is,
      or we wouldn't be driving electric), you're better off to buy a small
      ICE car for the trips the Force won't do. You'll find it almost
      impossible to make a series hybrid anywhere close to as clean or as
      efficient as an ordinary ICE-powered small car, let alone an extra
      clean and efficient one such as a Prius or Insight.

      In particular, emissions requirements for (usually) stationary gensets
      are very loose. Most of them are gross polluters. Even the high
      quality ones are appreciably dirtier than an ICE vehicle. You'd
      probably be cleaner driving a Hummer than using one of those to keep
      your Force running.





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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    • theoldcars@aol.com
      Calcars stopped at Portland and showed the Prius on their way to Seattle. They are using small sealed lead acid batteries that are used in an electric bike.
      Message 2 of 29 , Jan 12, 2006
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        Calcars stopped at Portland and showed the Prius on their way to Seattle.
        They are using small sealed lead acid batteries that are used in an electric
        bike. If I remember correct they were about 18 Ah. A little bit larger
        batteries would extend the range. It is exactly what our country needs. Then everyone
        would want to be able to plug in and run on electric as much as possible.

        So many new hybrids and EV cars are being developed in Japan the United
        States car manufactures will be forced to respond with similar vehicles.

        Wind is a vast untapped energy source. The following is out of the Cape Cod
        times.


        Earlier this month the Department of Energy along with the Massachusetts
        Technology Collaborative and General Electric, which would build the Cape Wind
        turbines released a proposed framework for the development of offshore wind
        resources.
        The report suggested there are up to 900,000 megawatts of potential energy or
        the rough equivalent of the nation's electrical capacity that can be
        harnessed off America's coast.
        With advances in technology and clear regulatory guidelines the industry
        could tap winds as far off coast as 50 miles.

        Don

        In a message dated 1/12/2006 8:31:23 PM Pacific Standard Time,
        jgrossm3@... writes:

        Consider Plug in Hybrids as an alternative to all electric vehicles. First
        20 or 30 miles on all electric and milage above 20 would run on ICE. Most
        trips daily are less than 20 miles. Plug in at night to recharge. Calcars in
        California is reengineering a Prius as a Plug in hybrid.

        RE:Comments concerning coal polution to create electricity - what about the
        polution generated in the extraction and production of gasoline. Wind
        generation of electricity is also a clean alternative to coal production.
        Jay H Grossman

        theoldcars@... wrote:

        Not everywhere on the West coast has a lot of charging locations.

        In Oregon with almost 100,000 square miles and we have one charging
        location
        in the state that is open 24/7. Yet In the last two years I have replaced
        almost all my driving of an ICE with electric.

        It is not fair to compare EV use and coal. There is plenty of excess power
        at night when most our charging is done.

        I would not say the EV experiment has failed. Really it was restarted just
        a
        little to soon. Better batteries will be made and produced in numbers that
        are affordable and it will change everything. Maybe in one year or ten
        years it
        is just a matter of time but it will happen.

        It would be great to figure out a way to add range but a generator from the
        numbers I have run really do not help much. I have put a lot of hours
        looking
        at generators and their output. My conclusion is a better range extender
        would use the existing ability of the Solectria to generate its own power.

        You would have less weight & conversion of power it is more efficient. A 13
        horsepower Honda motor weighs under 100 pounds. This is complete fuel tank
        and all for less than 600 dollars.

        Don





        In a message dated 1/12/2006 6:59:20 AM Pacific Standard Time,
        cfrkeepr@... writes:

        That all may well be true, but until you get stuck with a dead battery
        (batteries are the weak link) , having a backup is invaluable. Absolutely
        emissions are the main reason, but having a practical means of
        transportation is the
        only way the general public is going to consider the electric vehicle. The
        intent is not to use the generator fulltime, only for those instances of
        unexpected failure, it has happened to me several times. I am one of the few
        Force
        owners with not only a trailer hitch, but solar panels (OEM) too and a tow
        bar which I believe is a necessity. For those of you on the west coast
        where
        EVs are more common more power to you with charge stations galore. On the
        east
        coast its every man for himself. Face it the EV is an experiment, that for
        now is failing. It is our persistence that is keepping it alive. Sure we
        don't
        emit DIRECTLY, but the coal burned to produce the electricity does. The
        true
        value of driving electric is it's effieciency, which is why the hybrids
        are becoming so popular they give the give the "in town" efficiency with
        the
        ICE range. Our Solectria's are now historical museum displays waiting for a
        place. Maybe just maybe with a little inovation from a few enterprising
        individuals we can keep them going and maybe even make them more practical.
        It a
        sure thing that the Big Three are not going back to EVs.

        Bouton Baldridge


        rod864 <rod864@...> wrote:
        --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "d. Bouton Baldridge"
        <cfrkeepr@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Say, has anyone tried using a generator to charge while underway?

        If low emission driving is important to you (and for most of us it is,
        or we wouldn't be driving electric), you're better off to buy a small
        ICE car for the trips the Force won't do. You'll find it almost
        impossible to make a series hybrid anywhere close to as clean or as
        efficient as an ordinary ICE-powered small car, let alone an extra
        clean and efficient one such as a Prius or Insight.

        In particular, emissions requirements for (usually) stationary gensets
        are very loose. Most of them are gross polluters. Even the high
        quality ones are appreciably dirtier than an ICE vehicle. You'd
        probably be cleaner driving a Hummer than using one of those to keep
        your Force running.





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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        solectria_ev-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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      • rod864
        ... I ve never quite understood this concern. AC receptacles are just about the most ubiquitous fueling devices in the US! OK, most of them are 120 volt and
        Message 3 of 29 , Jan 13, 2006
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          --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "d. Bouton Baldridge"
          <cfrkeepr@y...> wrote:
          >
          > For those of you on the west coast where EVs are more common
          > more power to you with charge stations galore. On the east
          > coast its every man for himself.

          I've never quite understood this concern. AC receptacles are just
          about the most ubiquitous fueling devices in the US! OK, most of them
          are 120 volt and limited to perhaps 12 amps, but a half-hour or 45
          minutes of that can often buy you enough range to get home.

          Stop by the convenience stores and gas stations on your regular
          routes. Have a brief chat with the manager at each. You'll find that
          some (not all) will be happy to take a couple of bucks from you in
          return for a quarter's worth of power. Ask them to post notes by
          their cash registers with your name and plate number, and a sentence
          stating that you're authorized to buy a charge.

          > Face it the EV is an experiment, that for now is failing.

          I suppose that depends on your perspective. I don't agree.

          > Sure we don't emit DIRECTLY, but the coal burned to produce
          > the electricity does.

          I'll admit that such ultra-clean ICEs as the Toyota Prius give EVs a
          run for their money. But based on conversions, most of the indirect
          emissions from EV charging are markedly lower than the equivalent
          direct emissions from the original vehicle. The reason is that the EV
          is much more efficient than an equivalent ICEV, and power plants have
          gotten cleaner in recent years.

          Besides, EVs can be fueled with 100% renewable fuel, which you can
          make yourself in your own back yard with PV panels. You can't do that
          with a Prius (at least not yet).

          Somebody is going to pop up here and point out (with some
          justification) that some diesels can also be fueled with fuel that one
          can homebrew in his own back yard. I would respond that (1) the
          quantity of recyclable vegetable oil available is limited, and isn't
          going to supply very many vehicles; (2) the emissions are cleaner than
          petrol diesel, but hardly as clean as EVs'; and (3) as I understand
          it, there are byproducts from the process which may pose a disposal
          problem (amenable to correction if I'm misinformed).

          Commercial biodiesel is a very big question mark in my book. There is
          a fair bit of controversy over its energy balance because soybean
          farming in the US is so petroleum-intensive. When you ask the
          question, generally the answer you get depends on who's doing the
          talking and what his agenda is.

          Besides, I'm rather uncomfortable with burning good soybeans in my car
          when there are so many starving people in the world. Show me that you
          can extract the oil from soybeans and still use them for high quality
          protein, and then we'll talk. (Maybe it can be done; I don't know.)

          At this point I don't think anything else can match the environmental
          sustainability of a PV-fueled EV. I'm willing to listen to arguments,
          though.

          > Our Solectria's are now historical museum displays waiting for
          > a place.

          Great! I'll start a museum and you can donate yours to it. <grin>
        • d. Bouton Baldridge
          All of your points are well taken and I agree. My comments were not meant to provoke, I was responding to statements about my interest in exploring the use of
          Message 4 of 29 , Jan 14, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            All of your points are well taken and I agree. My comments were not meant to provoke, I was responding to statements about my interest in exploring the use of a generator to extend and in some cases diffuse an unfortunate but all too real stranding. What was said in the reply missed the point and tried to convince the readers that such behavior was undignified of a true EVer. I guess I reacted rather exaggeratedly when I was trying to justify my interest. In a perfect world we would not even need automobiles, we'd just beam ourselves to where ever. In the mean time those of us pioneers must work at keeping the concept of efficient and practical use of the EV in the minds of those not yet enlightened. It does no good for the cause when we must tell our neighbors that we had to be towed because our battery failed. The west coast is blessed with people of vision and we elsewhere are grateful. The failure I speak of is only that our manufacturers have dropped all EV programs so those of
            us with the few remaining Evs are bearing the burden of making sure the idea does not dissappear. This is even more accute in parts of the country where it did not manifest itself at all in the first place. I appreciate all of the efforts of the people who make up this forum and for those who steadfastly lobbyed to get these cars built. There is no doubt in my mind that the next producton EV in the US will be coming from India and China. Until that happens for better or worse, we who have made the commitment to keep these EVs going are facing increased cost of service and parts which is truely unfortunate because this will also not help our case. I guess my piont is that we need to remain unified and continue to support each other.
            Thanks for being there.

            Bouty

            rod864 <rod864@...> wrote:
            --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "d. Bouton Baldridge"
            <cfrkeepr@y...> wrote:
            >
            > For those of you on the west coast where EVs are more common
            > more power to you with charge stations galore. On the east
            > coast its every man for himself.

            I've never quite understood this concern. AC receptacles are just
            about the most ubiquitous fueling devices in the US! OK, most of them
            are 120 volt and limited to perhaps 12 amps, but a half-hour or 45
            minutes of that can often buy you enough range to get home.

            Stop by the convenience stores and gas stations on your regular
            routes. Have a brief chat with the manager at each. You'll find that
            some (not all) will be happy to take a couple of bucks from you in
            return for a quarter's worth of power. Ask them to post notes by
            their cash registers with your name and plate number, and a sentence
            stating that you're authorized to buy a charge.

            > Face it the EV is an experiment, that for now is failing.

            I suppose that depends on your perspective. I don't agree.

            > Sure we don't emit DIRECTLY, but the coal burned to produce
            > the electricity does.

            I'll admit that such ultra-clean ICEs as the Toyota Prius give EVs a
            run for their money. But based on conversions, most of the indirect
            emissions from EV charging are markedly lower than the equivalent
            direct emissions from the original vehicle. The reason is that the EV
            is much more efficient than an equivalent ICEV, and power plants have
            gotten cleaner in recent years.

            Besides, EVs can be fueled with 100% renewable fuel, which you can
            make yourself in your own back yard with PV panels. You can't do that
            with a Prius (at least not yet).

            Somebody is going to pop up here and point out (with some
            justification) that some diesels can also be fueled with fuel that one
            can homebrew in his own back yard. I would respond that (1) the
            quantity of recyclable vegetable oil available is limited, and isn't
            going to supply very many vehicles; (2) the emissions are cleaner than
            petrol diesel, but hardly as clean as EVs'; and (3) as I understand
            it, there are byproducts from the process which may pose a disposal
            problem (amenable to correction if I'm misinformed).

            Commercial biodiesel is a very big question mark in my book. There is
            a fair bit of controversy over its energy balance because soybean
            farming in the US is so petroleum-intensive. When you ask the
            question, generally the answer you get depends on who's doing the
            talking and what his agenda is.

            Besides, I'm rather uncomfortable with burning good soybeans in my car
            when there are so many starving people in the world. Show me that you
            can extract the oil from soybeans and still use them for high quality
            protein, and then we'll talk. (Maybe it can be done; I don't know.)

            At this point I don't think anything else can match the environmental
            sustainability of a PV-fueled EV. I'm willing to listen to arguments,
            though.

            > Our Solectria's are now historical museum displays waiting for
            > a place.

            Great! I'll start a museum and you can donate yours to it. <grin>






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          • theoldcars@aol.com
            I think all of us using lead acid batteries at one time or another wish we had something for an emergency. The Brusa charger puts in about 6 Ah per hour back
            Message 5 of 29 , Jan 14, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              I think all of us using lead acid batteries at one time or another wish we
              had something for an emergency.

              The Brusa charger puts in about 6 Ah per hour back in the pack. This is at
              3.3 kW which would take at least a 3.5 K generator. It would take a 8
              horsepower generator and I have found they weigh from 120 to 200 pounds. You really
              have to look at the generators ability to handle a constant output or prime
              power.

              Are you driving a Force? Adding 150 plus pounds is going to slightly reduce
              your range and lower the performance a little also. Plus I don't know of a
              generator that would fit in the trunk. It would not be an easy task putting one
              in the back seat if you even could get it in the opening.

              The other option of pulling a trailer. I would consider a small trailer with
              batteries before trying to charge while driving. Pulling a trailer is not h
              ard but it is not fun either. It will also make finding a parking spot
              difficult. A trailer is going to reduce your range and performance.

              A smaller 120 volt generator would get you back home but depending on how
              far you have to go it could take a very long time. A Honda EU 2000i would be a
              nice little 120 volt unit at 46.3 pounds. It will handle 1.6 prime and is 56
              db at 7 meters. Using 120 volts for charging should be done very sparingly. I
              would not recommend charging at 120 except in an absolute emergency. You
              could buy two sets of batteries and still be money ahead if you burn out the
              charger. It would be less expensive to buy another set of batteries.

              I am not sure 1.6 kW would be enough for the Brusa charging at 120 volts.
              Anyone know what the Brusa charger pulls at 120 volts?

              Don






              In a message dated 1/14/2006 12:03:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
              cfrkeepr@... writes:

              All of your points are well taken and I agree. My comments were not meant to
              provoke, I was responding to statements about my interest in exploring the
              use of a generator to extend and in some cases diffuse an unfortunate but all
              too real stranding. What was said in the reply missed the point and tried to
              convince the readers that such behavior was undignified of a true EVer. I
              guess I reacted rather exaggeratedly when I was trying to justify my interest.
              In a perfect world we would not even need automobiles, we'd just beam
              ourselves to where ever. In the mean time those of us pioneers must work at keeping
              the concept of efficient and practical use of the EV in the minds of those not
              yet enlightened. It does no good for the cause when we must tell our
              neighbors that we had to be towed because our battery failed. The west coast is
              blessed with people of vision and we elsewhere are grateful. The failure I speak
              of is only that our manufacturers have dropped all EV programs so those of
              us with the few remaining Evs are bearing the burden of making sure the idea
              does not dissappear. This is even more accute in parts of the country where
              it did not manifest itself at all in the first place. I appreciate all of the
              efforts of the people who make up this forum and for those who steadfastly
              lobbyed to get these cars built. There is no doubt in my mind that the next
              producton EV in the US will be coming from India and China. Until that happens
              for better or worse, we who have made the commitment to keep these EVs going
              are facing increased cost of service and parts which is truely unfortunate
              because this will also not help our case. I guess my piont is that we need to
              remain unified and continue to support each other.
              Thanks for being there.

              Bouty

              rod864 <rod864@...> wrote:
              --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "d. Bouton Baldridge"
              <cfrkeepr@y...> wrote:
              >
              > For those of you on the west coast where EVs are more common
              > more power to you with charge stations galore. On the east
              > coast its every man for himself.

              I've never quite understood this concern. AC receptacles are just
              about the most ubiquitous fueling devices in the US! OK, most of them
              are 120 volt and limited to perhaps 12 amps, but a half-hour or 45
              minutes of that can often buy you enough range to get home.

              Stop by the convenience stores and gas stations on your regular
              routes. Have a brief chat with the manager at each. You'll find that
              some (not all) will be happy to take a couple of bucks from you in
              return for a quarter's worth of power. Ask them to post notes by
              their cash registers with your name and plate number, and a sentence
              stating that you're authorized to buy a charge.

              > Face it the EV is an experiment, that for now is failing.

              I suppose that depends on your perspective. I don't agree.

              > Sure we don't emit DIRECTLY, but the coal burned to produce
              > the electricity does.

              I'll admit that such ultra-clean ICEs as the Toyota Prius give EVs a
              run for their money. But based on conversions, most of the indirect
              emissions from EV charging are markedly lower than the equivalent
              direct emissions from the original vehicle. The reason is that the EV
              is much more efficient than an equivalent ICEV, and power plants have
              gotten cleaner in recent years.

              Besides, EVs can be fueled with 100% renewable fuel, which you can
              make yourself in your own back yard with PV panels. You can't do that
              with a Prius (at least not yet).

              Somebody is going to pop up here and point out (with some
              justification) that some diesels can also be fueled with fuel that one
              can homebrew in his own back yard. I would respond that (1) the
              quantity of recyclable vegetable oil available is limited, and isn't
              going to supply very many vehicles; (2) the emissions are cleaner than
              petrol diesel, but hardly as clean as EVs'; and (3) as I understand
              it, there are byproducts from the process which may pose a disposal
              problem (amenable to correction if I'm misinformed).

              Commercial biodiesel is a very big question mark in my book. There is
              a fair bit of controversy over its energy balance because soybean
              farming in the US is so petroleum-intensive. When you ask the
              question, generally the answer you get depends on who's doing the
              talking and what his agenda is.

              Besides, I'm rather uncomfortable with burning good soybeans in my car
              when there are so many starving people in the world. Show me that you
              can extract the oil from soybeans and still use them for high quality
              protein, and then we'll talk. (Maybe it can be done; I don't know.)

              At this point I don't think anything else can match the environmental
              sustainability of a PV-fueled EV. I'm willing to listen to arguments,
              though.

              > Our Solectria's are now historical museum displays waiting for
              > a place.

              Great! I'll start a museum and you can donate yours to it. <grin>






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            • ldr214
              Don, You sound pretty familiar with the little Honda 200i generator. I don t know if you have one. I have transported mine in the trunk of the Force, (97 with
              Message 6 of 29 , Jan 14, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                Don,
                You sound pretty familiar with the little Honda 200i generator. I
                don't know if you have one. I have transported mine in the trunk of
                the Force, (97 with U27 gel configuration.) To close the trunk you
                have to make sure the generator handle is lined up so the thicker
                support part of the trunk lid misses it upon closing. I never tried
                charging the car with it. I was taking the generator in for service
                and wanted to drive cheap.

                Short range on the Pba batteries is a fact of life and one that has
                some positive aspects. Cab fare and towing should both be reasonable.

                Mike
                PS
                You can always get out and push it for a few AH in regen if you have
                some really strong friends.


                --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, theoldcars@a... wrote:
                >
                >
                > I think all of us using lead acid batteries at one time or another
                wish we
                > had something for an emergency.
                >
                > The Brusa charger puts in about 6 Ah per hour back in the pack. This
                is at
                > 3.3 kW which would take at least a 3.5 K generator. It would take a 8
                > horsepower generator and I have found they weigh from 120 to 200
                pounds. You really
                > have to look at the generators ability to handle a constant output
                or prime
                > power.
                >
                > Are you driving a Force? Adding 150 plus pounds is going to slightly
                reduce
                > your range and lower the performance a little also. Plus I don't
                know of a
                > generator that would fit in the trunk. It would not be an easy task
                putting one
                > in the back seat if you even could get it in the opening.
                >
                > The other option of pulling a trailer. I would consider a small
                trailer with
                > batteries before trying to charge while driving. Pulling a trailer
                is not h
                > ard but it is not fun either. It will also make finding a parking spot
                > difficult. A trailer is going to reduce your range and performance.
                >
                > A smaller 120 volt generator would get you back home but depending
                on how
                > far you have to go it could take a very long time. A Honda EU 2000i
                would be a
                > nice little 120 volt unit at 46.3 pounds. It will handle 1.6 prime
                and is 56
                > db at 7 meters. Using 120 volts for charging should be done very
                sparingly. I
                > would not recommend charging at 120 except in an absolute
                emergency. You
                > could buy two sets of batteries and still be money ahead if you
                burn out the
                > charger. It would be less expensive to buy another set of batteries.
                >
                > I am not sure 1.6 kW would be enough for the Brusa charging at 120
                volts.
                > Anyone know what the Brusa charger pulls at 120 volts?
                >
                > Don
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > In a message dated 1/14/2006 12:03:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                > cfrkeepr@y... writes:
                >
                > All of your points are well taken and I agree. My comments were not
                meant to
                > provoke, I was responding to statements about my interest in
                exploring the
                > use of a generator to extend and in some cases diffuse an
                unfortunate but all
                > too real stranding. What was said in the reply missed the point and
                tried to
                > convince the readers that such behavior was undignified of a true
                EVer. I
                > guess I reacted rather exaggeratedly when I was trying to justify
                my interest.
                > In a perfect world we would not even need automobiles, we'd just beam
                > ourselves to where ever. In the mean time those of us pioneers must
                work at keeping
                > the concept of efficient and practical use of the EV in the minds
                of those not
                > yet enlightened. It does no good for the cause when we must tell our
                > neighbors that we had to be towed because our battery failed. The
                west coast is
                > blessed with people of vision and we elsewhere are grateful. The
                failure I speak
                > of is only that our manufacturers have dropped all EV programs so
                those of
                > us with the few remaining Evs are bearing the burden of making sure
                the idea
                > does not dissappear. This is even more accute in parts of the
                country where
                > it did not manifest itself at all in the first place. I appreciate
                all of the
                > efforts of the people who make up this forum and for those who
                steadfastly
                > lobbyed to get these cars built. There is no doubt in my mind that
                the next
                > producton EV in the US will be coming from India and China. Until
                that happens
                > for better or worse, we who have made the commitment to keep these
                EVs going
                > are facing increased cost of service and parts which is truely
                unfortunate
                > because this will also not help our case. I guess my piont is that
                we need to
                > remain unified and continue to support each other.
                > Thanks for being there.
                >
                > Bouty
                >
                > rod864 <rod864@y...> wrote:
                > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "d. Bouton Baldridge"
                > <cfrkeepr@y...> wrote:
                > >
                > > For those of you on the west coast where EVs are more common
                > > more power to you with charge stations galore. On the east
                > > coast its every man for himself.
                >
                > I've never quite understood this concern. AC receptacles are just
                > about the most ubiquitous fueling devices in the US! OK, most of them
                > are 120 volt and limited to perhaps 12 amps, but a half-hour or 45
                > minutes of that can often buy you enough range to get home.
                >
                > Stop by the convenience stores and gas stations on your regular
                > routes. Have a brief chat with the manager at each. You'll find that
                > some (not all) will be happy to take a couple of bucks from you in
                > return for a quarter's worth of power. Ask them to post notes by
                > their cash registers with your name and plate number, and a sentence
                > stating that you're authorized to buy a charge.
                >
                > > Face it the EV is an experiment, that for now is failing.
                >
                > I suppose that depends on your perspective. I don't agree.
                >
                > > Sure we don't emit DIRECTLY, but the coal burned to produce
                > > the electricity does.
                >
                > I'll admit that such ultra-clean ICEs as the Toyota Prius give EVs a
                > run for their money. But based on conversions, most of the indirect
                > emissions from EV charging are markedly lower than the equivalent
                > direct emissions from the original vehicle. The reason is that the EV
                > is much more efficient than an equivalent ICEV, and power plants have
                > gotten cleaner in recent years.
                >
                > Besides, EVs can be fueled with 100% renewable fuel, which you can
                > make yourself in your own back yard with PV panels. You can't do that
                > with a Prius (at least not yet).
                >
                > Somebody is going to pop up here and point out (with some
                > justification) that some diesels can also be fueled with fuel that one
                > can homebrew in his own back yard. I would respond that (1) the
                > quantity of recyclable vegetable oil available is limited, and isn't
                > going to supply very many vehicles; (2) the emissions are cleaner than
                > petrol diesel, but hardly as clean as EVs'; and (3) as I understand
                > it, there are byproducts from the process which may pose a disposal
                > problem (amenable to correction if I'm misinformed).
                >
                > Commercial biodiesel is a very big question mark in my book. There is
                > a fair bit of controversy over its energy balance because soybean
                > farming in the US is so petroleum-intensive. When you ask the
                > question, generally the answer you get depends on who's doing the
                > talking and what his agenda is.
                >
                > Besides, I'm rather uncomfortable with burning good soybeans in my car
                > when there are so many starving people in the world. Show me that you
                > can extract the oil from soybeans and still use them for high quality
                > protein, and then we'll talk. (Maybe it can be done; I don't know.)
                >
                > At this point I don't think anything else can match the environmental
                > sustainability of a PV-fueled EV. I'm willing to listen to arguments,
                > though.
                >
                > > Our Solectria's are now historical museum displays waiting for
                > > a place.
                >
                > Great! I'll start a museum and you can donate yours to it. <grin>
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
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                >
                > Visit your group "solectria_ev" on the web.
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > solectria_ev-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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              • theoldcars@aol.com
                Hello Mike I have looked at a lot of generators mostly 240 volt to get an idea of weight and size. The light weight and size of the Honda 2000i is very good.
                Message 7 of 29 , Jan 14, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hello Mike

                  I have looked at a lot of generators mostly 240 volt to get an idea of
                  weight and size. The light weight and size of the Honda 2000i is very good. There
                  is one on eBay right now they ran for 13,000 hours before it stopped working.
                  I don't have one but I have always been very happy with Honda products.

                  A generator that I could put in the Force but it would be tempting for trips
                  that push your range. For me in this weather (37 degrees) that is around 16
                  miles. I have new batteries U27 Gel but I have been wanting to see how long
                  these will go.

                  Before I would call a tow truck I would be calling a friend.

                  There already is a huge generator in the Force. Just use an ICE with a very
                  strong tow rope. In about one mile the Force would put 2 to 3 Ah in the pack
                  with regen on. Just a few minutes of towing and you could get home on your
                  own.

                  Don


                  In a message dated 1/14/2006 6:51:40 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                  replytome@... writes:

                  Don,
                  You sound pretty familiar with the little Honda 200i generator. I
                  don't know if you have one. I have transported mine in the trunk of
                  the Force, (97 with U27 gel configuration.) To close the trunk you
                  have to make sure the generator handle is lined up so the thicker
                  support part of the trunk lid misses it upon closing. I never tried
                  charging the car with it. I was taking the generator in for service
                  and wanted to drive cheap.

                  Short range on the Pba batteries is a fact of life and one that has
                  some positive aspects. Cab fare and towing should both be reasonable.

                  Mike
                  PS
                  You can always get out and push it for a few AH in regen if you have
                  some really strong friends.


                  --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, theoldcars@a... wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > I think all of us using lead acid batteries at one time or another
                  wish we
                  > had something for an emergency.
                  >
                  > The Brusa charger puts in about 6 Ah per hour back in the pack. This
                  is at
                  > 3.3 kW which would take at least a 3.5 K generator. It would take a 8
                  > horsepower generator and I have found they weigh from 120 to 200
                  pounds. You really
                  > have to look at the generators ability to handle a constant output
                  or prime
                  > power.
                  >
                  > Are you driving a Force? Adding 150 plus pounds is going to slightly
                  reduce
                  > your range and lower the performance a little also. Plus I don't
                  know of a
                  > generator that would fit in the trunk. It would not be an easy task
                  putting one
                  > in the back seat if you even could get it in the opening.
                  >
                  > The other option of pulling a trailer. I would consider a small
                  trailer with
                  > batteries before trying to charge while driving. Pulling a trailer
                  is not h
                  > ard but it is not fun either. It will also make finding a parking spot
                  > difficult. A trailer is going to reduce your range and performance.
                  >
                  > A smaller 120 volt generator would get you back home but depending
                  on how
                  > far you have to go it could take a very long time. A Honda EU 2000i
                  would be a
                  > nice little 120 volt unit at 46.3 pounds. It will handle 1.6 prime
                  and is 56
                  > db at 7 meters. Using 120 volts for charging should be done very
                  sparingly. I
                  > would not recommend charging at 120 except in an absolute
                  emergency. You
                  > could buy two sets of batteries and still be money ahead if you
                  burn out the
                  > charger. It would be less expensive to buy another set of batteries.
                  >
                  > I am not sure 1.6 kW would be enough for the Brusa charging at 120
                  volts.
                  > Anyone know what the Brusa charger pulls at 120 volts?
                  >
                  > Don
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > In a message dated 1/14/2006 12:03:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                  > cfrkeepr@y... writes:
                  >
                  > All of your points are well taken and I agree. My comments were not
                  meant to
                  > provoke, I was responding to statements about my interest in
                  exploring the
                  > use of a generator to extend and in some cases diffuse an
                  unfortunate but all
                  > too real stranding. What was said in the reply missed the point and
                  tried to
                  > convince the readers that such behavior was undignified of a true
                  EVer. I
                  > guess I reacted rather exaggeratedly when I was trying to justify
                  my interest.
                  > In a perfect world we would not even need automobiles, we'd just beam
                  > ourselves to where ever. In the mean time those of us pioneers must
                  work at keeping
                  > the concept of efficient and practical use of the EV in the minds
                  of those not
                  > yet enlightened. It does no good for the cause when we must tell our
                  > neighbors that we had to be towed because our battery failed. The
                  west coast is
                  > blessed with people of vision and we elsewhere are grateful. The
                  failure I speak
                  > of is only that our manufacturers have dropped all EV programs so
                  those of
                  > us with the few remaining Evs are bearing the burden of making sure
                  the idea
                  > does not dissappear. This is even more accute in parts of the
                  country where
                  > it did not manifest itself at all in the first place. I appreciate
                  all of the
                  > efforts of the people who make up this forum and for those who
                  steadfastly
                  > lobbyed to get these cars built. There is no doubt in my mind that
                  the next
                  > producton EV in the US will be coming from India and China. Until
                  that happens
                  > for better or worse, we who have made the commitment to keep these
                  EVs going
                  > are facing increased cost of service and parts which is truely
                  unfortunate
                  > because this will also not help our case. I guess my piont is that
                  we need to
                  > remain unified and continue to support each other.
                  > Thanks for being there.
                  >
                  > Bouty
                  >
                  > rod864 <rod864@y...> wrote:
                  > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "d. Bouton Baldridge"
                  > <cfrkeepr@y...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > For those of you on the west coast where EVs are more common
                  > > more power to you with charge stations galore. On the east
                  > > coast its every man for himself.
                  >
                  > I've never quite understood this concern. AC receptacles are just
                  > about the most ubiquitous fueling devices in the US! OK, most of them
                  > are 120 volt and limited to perhaps 12 amps, but a half-hour or 45
                  > minutes of that can often buy you enough range to get home.
                  >
                  > Stop by the convenience stores and gas stations on your regular
                  > routes. Have a brief chat with the manager at each. You'll find that
                  > some (not all) will be happy to take a couple of bucks from you in
                  > return for a quarter's worth of power. Ask them to post notes by
                  > their cash registers with your name and plate number, and a sentence
                  > stating that you're authorized to buy a charge.
                  >
                  > > Face it the EV is an experiment, that for now is failing.
                  >
                  > I suppose that depends on your perspective. I don't agree.
                  >
                  > > Sure we don't emit DIRECTLY, but the coal burned to produce
                  > > the electricity does.
                  >
                  > I'll admit that such ultra-clean ICEs as the Toyota Prius give EVs a
                  > run for their money. But based on conversions, most of the indirect
                  > emissions from EV charging are markedly lower than the equivalent
                  > direct emissions from the original vehicle. The reason is that the EV
                  > is much more efficient than an equivalent ICEV, and power plants have
                  > gotten cleaner in recent years.
                  >
                  > Besides, EVs can be fueled with 100% renewable fuel, which you can
                  > make yourself in your own back yard with PV panels. You can't do that
                  > with a Prius (at least not yet).
                  >
                  > Somebody is going to pop up here and point out (with some
                  > justification) that some diesels can also be fueled with fuel that one
                  > can homebrew in his own back yard. I would respond that (1) the
                  > quantity of recyclable vegetable oil available is limited, and isn't
                  > going to supply very many vehicles; (2) the emissions are cleaner than
                  > petrol diesel, but hardly as clean as EVs'; and (3) as I understand
                  > it, there are byproducts from the process which may pose a disposal
                  > problem (amenable to correction if I'm misinformed).
                  >
                  > Commercial biodiesel is a very big question mark in my book. There is
                  > a fair bit of controversy over its energy balance because soybean
                  > farming in the US is so petroleum-intensive. When you ask the
                  > question, generally the answer you get depends on who's doing the
                  > talking and what his agenda is.
                  >
                  > Besides, I'm rather uncomfortable with burning good soybeans in my car
                  > when there are so many starving people in the world. Show me that you
                  > can extract the oil from soybeans and still use them for high quality
                  > protein, and then we'll talk. (Maybe it can be done; I don't know.)
                  >
                  > At this point I don't think anything else can match the environmental
                  > sustainability of a PV-fueled EV. I'm willing to listen to arguments,
                  > though.
                  >
                  > > Our Solectria's are now historical museum displays waiting for
                  > > a place.
                  >
                  > Great! I'll start a museum and you can donate yours to it. <grin>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > SPONSORED LINKS
                  > Automotive car part Automotive fuel cell Automotive fuel tank
                  > Automotive car cover Electric car Alternative fuels
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                  >
                  >
                  > Visit your group "solectria_ev" on the web.
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > solectria_ev-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
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                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
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                  > Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it!
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
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                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >







                  Yahoo! Groups Links









                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Ken Olum
                  From: theoldcars@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 19:03:17 EST The Brusa charger puts in about 6 Ah per hour back in the pack. This is at 3.3 kW... Either this
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jan 17, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    From: theoldcars@...
                    Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 19:03:17 EST

                    The Brusa charger puts in about 6 Ah per hour back in the pack. This is at
                    3.3 kW...

                    Either this is a typo or something is wrong with your charger. It
                    should be about 18A output. The input power of 3.3kW is correct.

                    I am not sure 1.6 kW would be enough for the Brusa charging at 120 volts.
                    Anyone know what the Brusa charger pulls at 120 volts?

                    It should be about 800W. It's proportional to the square of the
                    voltage.

                    Ken
                  • theoldcars@aol.com
                    Hello Ken I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger. Charging at 240 volts for one hour I have notice the Brusa puts about 6 Ah
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jan 17, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hello Ken

                      I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger.
                      Charging at 240 volts for one hour I have notice the Brusa puts about 6 Ah
                      back in the pack until it reaches the finishing charge.

                      I used the Ah gauge as it gives you a real world amount of range your going
                      to get. I live in an area of some very steep hills. There is nothing wrong
                      with my car and I average 1.5 Ah per mile. I would like to add if it was not for
                      the regen it would be at or over 2.0 Ah per mile. I pick up close to 30
                      percent and try to make the regen last as long as possible. If an ICE is behind
                      me that does not happen. If I get out of the area I have found I get about
                      1.0 Ah per mile and maybe even a little better if it is slow and no stopping.

                      At this site _http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/charger.shtml#sol_
                      (http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/charger.shtml#sol) the Brusa is 120 volts with
                      12 Amps in and 10 Amps out. Going by that would 1440 watts be correct?

                      Don

                      In a message dated 1/17/2006 8:10:05 AM Pacific Standard Time,
                      kdo@... writes:

                      From: theoldcars@...
                      Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 19:03:17 EST

                      The Brusa charger puts in about 6 Ah per hour back in the pack. This is at
                      3.3 kW...

                      Either this is a typo or something is wrong with your charger. It
                      should be about 18A output. The input power of 3.3kW is correct.

                      I am not sure 1.6 kW would be enough for the Brusa charging at 120 volts.
                      Anyone know what the Brusa charger pulls at 120 volts?

                      It should be about 800W. It's proportional to the square of the
                      voltage.

                      Ken






                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Ken Olum
                      From: theoldcars@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 15:58:26 EST I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger. Charging at 240 volts
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jan 17, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        From: theoldcars@...
                        Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 15:58:26 EST

                        I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger.
                        Charging at 240 volts for one hour I have notice the Brusa puts about 6 Ah
                        back in the pack until it reaches the finishing charge.

                        What pack voltage are we talking about? Is it 156V nominal, like
                        mine? Are you measuring it when the pack is significantly discharged?
                        If so, something is wrong. It should be more than 3kW output, which
                        means at least 17A into 170V.

                        At this site _http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/charger.shtml#sol_
                        (http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/charger.shtml#sol) the Brusa is 120 volts with
                        12 Amps in and 10 Amps out. Going by that would 1440 watts be correct?

                        Assuming the charger is a Brusa NLG-412, I think this is wrong, unless
                        you get a special-purpose version of the charger (NLG-4121) that is
                        intended for low input voltage.

                        Ken
                      • Stephen Taylor
                        Don: I think Ken is right. The charger should be lowering your AH guage by something closer to 18AH per hour not 6AHs when using a 240 volt outlet. In other
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jan 17, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Don:

                          I think Ken is right. The charger should be lowering your AH guage by something closer to 18AH per hour not 6AHs when using a 240 volt outlet. In other words, after one hour of charging you should be gaining back about 12 to 18 miles of extra range, it sounds like you are getting about 1/3 of that.

                          Of course the rate does slow down substanially as the batteries get closer to full, maybe that is where the confusion is.

                          Stephen Taylor



                          theoldcars@... wrote:
                          Hello Ken

                          I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger.
                          Charging at 240 volts for one hour I have notice the Brusa puts about 6 Ah
                          back in the pack until it reaches the finishing charge.



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                        • theoldcars@aol.com
                          Is the Amp hour gauge in the dash is going to be close to the same as the Amps being put in by the charger? Even with new batteries your going to have some
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jan 18, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Is the Amp hour gauge in the dash is going to be close to the same as the
                            Amps being put in by the charger? Even with new batteries your going to have
                            some loss?

                            I am charging only with 240 volts. The batteries are the original Gel making
                            them at least eight years old with close to 19,000 miles. Sounds like they
                            must be causing a huge amount of resistance.

                            I have placed a clamp meter at the charger it is putting in 15 to 16 Amps at
                            the start of charging and after a while drops to 12 to 14 Amps. I have time
                            it and never has been more than 6 Ah on the dash for the last year. I have
                            only had this Solectria for a one and a half years and it had 14,500 to start
                            with. I do not have any experience with new batteries.

                            It would be interesting to know what others are getting in the first hour
                            back on your Ah gauge on the dash with 240 and 120. Even just using a watch and
                            giving a rough idea how long it takes to put in one Ah. You should be
                            putting in one Ah in three minutes and thirty-five seconds at 18 Ah per hour rate.

                            I was basing the value of a small generator on how fast my batteries were
                            charging on 240. I am guessing if your charging at 120 with good batteries you
                            should be in the range of 6 Ah back in the pack in an hour?

                            That would make a huge difference. Being able to keep the weight of a
                            generator to 45 pounds would be worth adding another charger like a PFC 30. Then
                            you could charge at 120 and not risk damaging the Brusa.


                            Don

                            In a message dated 1/17/2006 2:06:23 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                            sparrow262@... writes:

                            Don:

                            I think Ken is right. The charger should be lowering your AH guage by
                            something closer to 18AH per hour not 6AHs when using a 240 volt outlet. In other
                            words, after one hour of charging you should be gaining back about 12 to 18
                            miles of extra range, it sounds like you are getting about 1/3 of that.

                            Of course the rate does slow down substanially as the batteries get closer
                            to full, maybe that is where the confusion is.

                            Stephen Taylor



                            theoldcars@... wrote:
                            Hello Ken

                            I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger.
                            Charging at 240 volts for one hour I have notice the Brusa puts about 6 Ah
                            back in the pack until it reaches the finishing charge.



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                          • Stephen Taylor
                            I am charging my 156 volt NiCD Force right now. One hour ago the AH guage read 49AH, it now reads 34AH so it went down 15AHs in one hour. I ll check my lead
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jan 18, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I am charging my 156 volt NiCD Force right now. One hour ago the AH guage read 49AH, it now reads 34AH so it went down 15AHs in one hour.

                              I'll check my lead acid car this afternoon, but my AH guage in it has a funny problem. When it is charging or regenerating it overestimates the amount of energy put back by about 40%. It does this anytime the AH guage is going down (charging or regen) and the number is XX.40 or XX.X4. The next number after XX.40 as it is charging is XX.19 and the next number after XX.X4 is XX.X1 when charging. It does this everytime, but only going down it counts up properly. So what I'm saying is that I will see my AH guage go down in that car by almost 25AH in one hour and of course I see huge negative numbers before the overcharge is done.

                              If you know the charger is putting in 15 to 16 amps into the batteries, it sounds like your AH guage is not counting it properly. Kind of the opposite of what mine is doing. Does your AH guage eventually go to negative numbers during the overcharge? Is the guage always starting at zero after you unplug it from a full charge or are there times it doesn't quite reach zero?

                              Stephen Taylor

                              theoldcars@... wrote:

                              Is the Amp hour gauge in the dash is going to be close to the same as the
                              Amps being put in by the charger? Even with new batteries your going to have
                              some loss?

                              I am charging only with 240 volts. The batteries are the original Gel making
                              them at least eight years old with close to 19,000 miles. Sounds like they
                              must be causing a huge amount of resistance.

                              I have placed a clamp meter at the charger it is putting in 15 to 16 Amps at
                              the start of charging and after a while drops to 12 to 14 Amps. I have time
                              it and never has been more than 6 Ah on the dash for the last year. I have
                              only had this Solectria for a one and a half years and it had 14,500 to start
                              with. I do not have any experience with new batteries.

                              It would be interesting to know what others are getting in the first hour
                              back on your Ah gauge on the dash with 240 and 120. Even just using a watch and
                              giving a rough idea how long it takes to put in one Ah. You should be
                              putting in one Ah in three minutes and thirty-five seconds at 18 Ah per hour rate.

                              I was basing the value of a small generator on how fast my batteries were
                              charging on 240. I am guessing if your charging at 120 with good batteries you
                              should be in the range of 6 Ah back in the pack in an hour?

                              That would make a huge difference. Being able to keep the weight of a
                              generator to 45 pounds would be worth adding another charger like a PFC 30. Then
                              you could charge at 120 and not risk damaging the Brusa.


                              Don

                              In a message dated 1/17/2006 2:06:23 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                              sparrow262@... writes:

                              Don:

                              I think Ken is right. The charger should be lowering your AH guage by
                              something closer to 18AH per hour not 6AHs when using a 240 volt outlet. In other
                              words, after one hour of charging you should be gaining back about 12 to 18
                              miles of extra range, it sounds like you are getting about 1/3 of that.

                              Of course the rate does slow down substanially as the batteries get closer
                              to full, maybe that is where the confusion is.

                              Stephen Taylor



                              theoldcars@... wrote:
                              Hello Ken

                              I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger.
                              Charging at 240 volts for one hour I have notice the Brusa puts about 6 Ah
                              back in the pack until it reaches the finishing charge.



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                            • Stephen Taylor
                              OK I ran my lead acid Force this afternoon. During the first six minutes of charging my guage went from 14.05 to 11.07 or down 2.98 AHs. At that rate in one
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jan 18, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                OK I ran my lead acid Force this afternoon. During the first six minutes of charging my guage went from 14.05 to 11.07 or down 2.98 AHs. At that rate in one hour it would be down 29.8 AHs. As I said before it skips from .40 to .19 everytime and similarly with the hundreds of an AH column. This is a 40% error so subtracting 40% from 29.8 leaves 17.88 AHs. So 17.88 AH per hour is the actual reduction my AH guage should be seeing during full power charging. Full power charging I believe continues until the batteries reach 183.3 volts at which point the charger begins it constant voltage phase so the amps begin to throttle back.

                                Stephen Taylor

                                theoldcars@... wrote:
                                Even just using a watch and
                                giving a rough idea how long it takes to put in one Ah. You should be
                                putting in one Ah in three minutes and thirty-five seconds at 18 Ah per hour rate.

                                Don



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                              • theoldcars@aol.com
                                Hello Stephen Thanks checking and posting the information. So if it is 18 Ah from 240 would it be 9 Ah at 120 in an hour? Don In a message dated 1/18/2006
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jan 18, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hello Stephen

                                  Thanks checking and posting the information. So if it is 18 Ah from 240
                                  would it be 9 Ah at 120 in an hour?


                                  Don

                                  In a message dated 1/18/2006 1:50:26 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                                  sparrow262@... writes:


                                  OK I ran my lead acid Force this afternoon. During the first six minutes of
                                  charging my guage went from 14.05 to 11.07 or down 2.98 AHs. At that rate
                                  in one hour it would be down 29.8 AHs. As I said before it skips from .40
                                  to .19 everytime and similarly with the hundreds of an AH column. This is a
                                  40% error so subtracting 40% from 29.8 leaves 17.88 AHs. So 17.88 AH per hour
                                  is the actual reduction my AH guage should be seeing during full power
                                  charging. Full power charging I believe continues until the batteries reach 183.3
                                  volts at which point the charger begins it constant voltage phase so the
                                  amps begin to throttle back.

                                  Stephen Taylor

                                  theoldcars@... wrote:
                                  Even just using a watch and
                                  giving a rough idea how long it takes to put in one Ah. You should be
                                  putting in one Ah in three minutes and thirty-five seconds at 18 Ah per
                                  hour rate.

                                  Don



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                                • Jay Grossman
                                  I m getting about a 6Ah reduction from the dash Ah meter per hour of charging in my 95 force with dual brusca chargers. Jay H Grossman theoldcars@aol.com
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jan 19, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I'm getting about a 6Ah reduction from the dash Ah meter per hour of charging in my 95 force with dual brusca chargers.
                                    Jay H Grossman


                                    theoldcars@... wrote:
                                    Is the Amp hour gauge in the dash is going to be close to the same as the
                                    Amps being put in by the charger? Even with new batteries your going to have
                                    some loss?

                                    I am charging only with 240 volts. The batteries are the original Gel making
                                    them at least eight years old with close to 19,000 miles. Sounds like they
                                    must be causing a huge amount of resistance.

                                    I have placed a clamp meter at the charger it is putting in 15 to 16 Amps at
                                    the start of charging and after a while drops to 12 to 14 Amps. I have time
                                    it and never has been more than 6 Ah on the dash for the last year. I have
                                    only had this Solectria for a one and a half years and it had 14,500 to start
                                    with. I do not have any experience with new batteries.

                                    It would be interesting to know what others are getting in the first hour
                                    back on your Ah gauge on the dash with 240 and 120. Even just using a watch and
                                    giving a rough idea how long it takes to put in one Ah. You should be
                                    putting in one Ah in three minutes and thirty-five seconds at 18 Ah per hour rate.

                                    I was basing the value of a small generator on how fast my batteries were
                                    charging on 240. I am guessing if your charging at 120 with good batteries you
                                    should be in the range of 6 Ah back in the pack in an hour?

                                    That would make a huge difference. Being able to keep the weight of a
                                    generator to 45 pounds would be worth adding another charger like a PFC 30. Then
                                    you could charge at 120 and not risk damaging the Brusa.


                                    Don

                                    In a message dated 1/17/2006 2:06:23 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                                    sparrow262@... writes:

                                    Don:

                                    I think Ken is right. The charger should be lowering your AH guage by
                                    something closer to 18AH per hour not 6AHs when using a 240 volt outlet. In other
                                    words, after one hour of charging you should be gaining back about 12 to 18
                                    miles of extra range, it sounds like you are getting about 1/3 of that.

                                    Of course the rate does slow down substanially as the batteries get closer
                                    to full, maybe that is where the confusion is.

                                    Stephen Taylor



                                    theoldcars@... wrote:
                                    Hello Ken

                                    I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger.
                                    Charging at 240 volts for one hour I have notice the Brusa puts about 6 Ah
                                    back in the pack until it reaches the finishing charge.



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                                  • theoldcars@aol.com
                                    Hello Jay Is that with 240 volts? Batteries Gel? Age and miles? Don In a message dated 1/19/2006 9:32:35 AM Pacific Standard Time, jgrossm3@yahoo.com writes:
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jan 19, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hello Jay

                                      Is that with 240 volts? Batteries Gel? Age and miles?

                                      Don


                                      In a message dated 1/19/2006 9:32:35 AM Pacific Standard Time,
                                      jgrossm3@... writes:

                                      I'm getting about a 6Ah reduction from the dash Ah meter per hour of
                                      charging in my 95 force with dual brusca chargers.
                                      Jay H Grossman


                                      theoldcars@... wrote:
                                      Is the Amp hour gauge in the dash is going to be close to the same as the
                                      Amps being put in by the charger? Even with new batteries your going to have

                                      some loss?

                                      I am charging only with 240 volts. The batteries are the original Gel
                                      making
                                      them at least eight years old with close to 19,000 miles. Sounds like they
                                      must be causing a huge amount of resistance.

                                      I have placed a clamp meter at the charger it is putting in 15 to 16 Amps
                                      at
                                      the start of charging and after a while drops to 12 to 14 Amps. I have time

                                      it and never has been more than 6 Ah on the dash for the last year. I have
                                      only had this Solectria for a one and a half years and it had 14,500 to
                                      start
                                      with. I do not have any experience with new batteries.

                                      It would be interesting to know what others are getting in the first hour
                                      back on your Ah gauge on the dash with 240 and 120. Even just using a watch
                                      and
                                      giving a rough idea how long it takes to put in one Ah. You should be
                                      putting in one Ah in three minutes and thirty-five seconds at 18 Ah per
                                      hour rate.

                                      I was basing the value of a small generator on how fast my batteries were
                                      charging on 240. I am guessing if your charging at 120 with good batteries
                                      you
                                      should be in the range of 6 Ah back in the pack in an hour?

                                      That would make a huge difference. Being able to keep the weight of a
                                      generator to 45 pounds would be worth adding another charger like a PFC 30.
                                      Then
                                      you could charge at 120 and not risk damaging the Brusa.


                                      Don

                                      In a message dated 1/17/2006 2:06:23 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                                      sparrow262@... writes:

                                      Don:

                                      I think Ken is right. The charger should be lowering your AH guage by
                                      something closer to 18AH per hour not 6AHs when using a 240 volt outlet.
                                      In other
                                      words, after one hour of charging you should be gaining back about 12 to 18
                                      miles of extra range, it sounds like you are getting about 1/3 of that.

                                      Of course the rate does slow down substanially as the batteries get closer
                                      to full, maybe that is where the confusion is.

                                      Stephen Taylor



                                      theoldcars@... wrote:
                                      Hello Ken

                                      I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger.
                                      Charging at 240 volts for one hour I have notice the Brusa puts about 6 Ah
                                      back in the pack until it reaches the finishing charge.



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                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Stephen Taylor
                                      Don Did 6 minutes of charge on 120volts. AH started at 19.51 and ended at 18.65. That is a change of .86 or 8.6 for one hour. Subtracting 40% for my AH
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jan 19, 2006
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Don

                                        Did 6 minutes of charge on 120volts. AH started at 19.51 and ended at 18.65. That is a change of .86 or 8.6 for one hour. Subtracting 40% for my AH guage problem mentioned earlier that leaves 5.16 AH per hour. So it would appear at 120 volts it must be doing only about 1/3 (maybe even less) the charge rate as at 240 volts.

                                        Stephen Taylor

                                        theoldcars@... wrote:

                                        Hello Stephen

                                        Thanks checking and posting the information. So if it is 18 Ah from 240
                                        would it be 9 Ah at 120 in an hour?


                                        Don

                                        In a message dated 1/18/2006 1:50:26 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                                        sparrow262@... writes:


                                        OK I ran my lead acid Force this afternoon. During the first six minutes of
                                        charging my guage went from 14.05 to 11.07 or down 2.98 AHs. At that rate
                                        in one hour it would be down 29.8 AHs. As I said before it skips from .40
                                        to .19 everytime and similarly with the hundreds of an AH column. This is a
                                        40% error so subtracting 40% from 29.8 leaves 17.88 AHs. So 17.88 AH per hour
                                        is the actual reduction my AH guage should be seeing during full power
                                        charging. Full power charging I believe continues until the batteries reach 183.3
                                        volts at which point the charger begins it constant voltage phase so the
                                        amps begin to throttle back.

                                        Stephen Taylor

                                        theoldcars@... wrote:
                                        Even just using a watch and
                                        giving a rough idea how long it takes to put in one Ah. You should be
                                        putting in one Ah in three minutes and thirty-five seconds at 18 Ah per
                                        hour rate.

                                        Don



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                                      • Jim Coate
                                        Someone else recently posted that it goes as the square, so will at 120 volts will be doing only 1/4 of the rate at 240 volts. The value of 800 watts was
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jan 19, 2006
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Someone else recently posted that it goes as the square, so will at 120
                                          volts will be doing only 1/4 of the rate at 240 volts.

                                          The value of 800 watts was mentioned along the way...
                                          800 watts of charging power on 120 volts
                                          3300 watts of charging power on 240 volts
                                          and 800/3300 = 25%



                                          Stephen Taylor wrote:
                                          > So it would appear at 120 volts it must be doing only about 1/3
                                          > (maybe even less) the charge rate as at 240 volts.





                                          --
                                          Jim Coate
                                          1970's Elec-Trak's
                                          1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
                                          1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
                                          http://www.eeevee.com
                                        • Jay Grossman
                                          240 Volts at home, Dekka 8G27M batteries which are 8 months old (May 2005), with 5400 miles on this pack. My principal driving is 17 miles to the office
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jan 20, 2006
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            240 Volts at home, Dekka 8G27M batteries which are 8 months old (May 2005), with 5400 miles on this pack. My principal driving is 17 miles to the office where I have a 208v outlet to charge during the day and then 17 miles home where I have a 240v outlet.
                                            Jay H Grossman

                                            theoldcars@... wrote:
                                            Hello Jay

                                            Is that with 240 volts? Batteries Gel? Age and miles?

                                            Don


                                            In a message dated 1/19/2006 9:32:35 AM Pacific Standard Time,
                                            jgrossm3@... writes:

                                            I'm getting about a 6Ah reduction from the dash Ah meter per hour of
                                            charging in my 95 force with dual brusca chargers.
                                            Jay H Grossman


                                            theoldcars@... wrote:
                                            Is the Amp hour gauge in the dash is going to be close to the same as the
                                            Amps being put in by the charger? Even with new batteries your going to have

                                            some loss?

                                            I am charging only with 240 volts. The batteries are the original Gel
                                            making
                                            them at least eight years old with close to 19,000 miles. Sounds like they
                                            must be causing a huge amount of resistance.

                                            I have placed a clamp meter at the charger it is putting in 15 to 16 Amps
                                            at
                                            the start of charging and after a while drops to 12 to 14 Amps. I have time

                                            it and never has been more than 6 Ah on the dash for the last year. I have
                                            only had this Solectria for a one and a half years and it had 14,500 to
                                            start
                                            with. I do not have any experience with new batteries.

                                            It would be interesting to know what others are getting in the first hour
                                            back on your Ah gauge on the dash with 240 and 120. Even just using a watch
                                            and
                                            giving a rough idea how long it takes to put in one Ah. You should be
                                            putting in one Ah in three minutes and thirty-five seconds at 18 Ah per
                                            hour rate.

                                            I was basing the value of a small generator on how fast my batteries were
                                            charging on 240. I am guessing if your charging at 120 with good batteries
                                            you
                                            should be in the range of 6 Ah back in the pack in an hour?

                                            That would make a huge difference. Being able to keep the weight of a
                                            generator to 45 pounds would be worth adding another charger like a PFC 30.
                                            Then
                                            you could charge at 120 and not risk damaging the Brusa.


                                            Don

                                            In a message dated 1/17/2006 2:06:23 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                                            sparrow262@... writes:

                                            Don:

                                            I think Ken is right. The charger should be lowering your AH guage by
                                            something closer to 18AH per hour not 6AHs when using a 240 volt outlet.
                                            In other
                                            words, after one hour of charging you should be gaining back about 12 to 18
                                            miles of extra range, it sounds like you are getting about 1/3 of that.

                                            Of course the rate does slow down substanially as the batteries get closer
                                            to full, maybe that is where the confusion is.

                                            Stephen Taylor



                                            theoldcars@... wrote:
                                            Hello Ken

                                            I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger.
                                            Charging at 240 volts for one hour I have notice the Brusa puts about 6 Ah
                                            back in the pack until it reaches the finishing charge.



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