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  • theoldcars@aol.com
    Not everywhere on the West coast has a lot of charging locations. In Oregon with almost 100,000 square miles and we have one charging location in the state
    Message 1 of 29 , Jan 12, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      Not everywhere on the West coast has a lot of charging locations.

      In Oregon with almost 100,000 square miles and we have one charging location
      in the state that is open 24/7. Yet In the last two years I have replaced
      almost all my driving of an ICE with electric.

      It is not fair to compare EV use and coal. There is plenty of excess power
      at night when most our charging is done.

      I would not say the EV experiment has failed. Really it was restarted just a
      little to soon. Better batteries will be made and produced in numbers that
      are affordable and it will change everything. Maybe in one year or ten years it
      is just a matter of time but it will happen.

      It would be great to figure out a way to add range but a generator from the
      numbers I have run really do not help much. I have put a lot of hours looking
      at generators and their output. My conclusion is a better range extender
      would use the existing ability of the Solectria to generate its own power.

      You would have less weight & conversion of power it is more efficient. A 13
      horsepower Honda motor weighs under 100 pounds. This is complete fuel tank
      and all for less than 600 dollars.

      Don





      In a message dated 1/12/2006 6:59:20 AM Pacific Standard Time,
      cfrkeepr@... writes:

      That all may well be true, but until you get stuck with a dead battery
      (batteries are the weak link) , having a backup is invaluable. Absolutely
      emissions are the main reason, but having a practical means of transportation is the
      only way the general public is going to consider the electric vehicle. The
      intent is not to use the generator fulltime, only for those instances of
      unexpected failure, it has happened to me several times. I am one of the few Force
      owners with not only a trailer hitch, but solar panels (OEM) too and a tow
      bar which I believe is a necessity. For those of you on the west coast where
      EVs are more common more power to you with charge stations galore. On the east
      coast its every man for himself. Face it the EV is an experiment, that for
      now is failing. It is our persistence that is keepping it alive. Sure we don't
      emit DIRECTLY, but the coal burned to produce the electricity does. The true
      value of driving electric is it's effieciency, which is why the hybrids
      are becoming so popular they give the give the "in town" efficiency with the
      ICE range. Our Solectria's are now historical museum displays waiting for a
      place. Maybe just maybe with a little inovation from a few enterprising
      individuals we can keep them going and maybe even make them more practical. It a
      sure thing that the Big Three are not going back to EVs.

      Bouton Baldridge


      rod864 <rod864@...> wrote:
      --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "d. Bouton Baldridge"
      <cfrkeepr@y...> wrote:
      >
      > Say, has anyone tried using a generator to charge while underway?

      If low emission driving is important to you (and for most of us it is,
      or we wouldn't be driving electric), you're better off to buy a small
      ICE car for the trips the Force won't do. You'll find it almost
      impossible to make a series hybrid anywhere close to as clean or as
      efficient as an ordinary ICE-powered small car, let alone an extra
      clean and efficient one such as a Prius or Insight.

      In particular, emissions requirements for (usually) stationary gensets
      are very loose. Most of them are gross polluters. Even the high
      quality ones are appreciably dirtier than an ICE vehicle. You'd
      probably be cleaner driving a Hummer than using one of those to keep
      your Force running.





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jay Grossman
      Consider Plug in Hybrids as an alternative to all electric vehicles. First 20 or 30 miles on all electric and milage above 20 would run on ICE. Most trips
      Message 2 of 29 , Jan 12, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        Consider Plug in Hybrids as an alternative to all electric vehicles. First 20 or 30 miles on all electric and milage above 20 would run on ICE. Most trips daily are less than 20 miles. Plug in at night to recharge. Calcars in California is reengineering a Prius as a Plug in hybrid.

        RE:Comments concerning coal polution to create electricity - what about the polution generated in the extraction and production of gasoline. Wind generation of electricity is also a clean alternative to coal production.
        Jay H Grossman

        theoldcars@... wrote:

        Not everywhere on the West coast has a lot of charging locations.

        In Oregon with almost 100,000 square miles and we have one charging location
        in the state that is open 24/7. Yet In the last two years I have replaced
        almost all my driving of an ICE with electric.

        It is not fair to compare EV use and coal. There is plenty of excess power
        at night when most our charging is done.

        I would not say the EV experiment has failed. Really it was restarted just a
        little to soon. Better batteries will be made and produced in numbers that
        are affordable and it will change everything. Maybe in one year or ten years it
        is just a matter of time but it will happen.

        It would be great to figure out a way to add range but a generator from the
        numbers I have run really do not help much. I have put a lot of hours looking
        at generators and their output. My conclusion is a better range extender
        would use the existing ability of the Solectria to generate its own power.

        You would have less weight & conversion of power it is more efficient. A 13
        horsepower Honda motor weighs under 100 pounds. This is complete fuel tank
        and all for less than 600 dollars.

        Don





        In a message dated 1/12/2006 6:59:20 AM Pacific Standard Time,
        cfrkeepr@... writes:

        That all may well be true, but until you get stuck with a dead battery
        (batteries are the weak link) , having a backup is invaluable. Absolutely
        emissions are the main reason, but having a practical means of transportation is the
        only way the general public is going to consider the electric vehicle. The
        intent is not to use the generator fulltime, only for those instances of
        unexpected failure, it has happened to me several times. I am one of the few Force
        owners with not only a trailer hitch, but solar panels (OEM) too and a tow
        bar which I believe is a necessity. For those of you on the west coast where
        EVs are more common more power to you with charge stations galore. On the east
        coast its every man for himself. Face it the EV is an experiment, that for
        now is failing. It is our persistence that is keepping it alive. Sure we don't
        emit DIRECTLY, but the coal burned to produce the electricity does. The true
        value of driving electric is it's effieciency, which is why the hybrids
        are becoming so popular they give the give the "in town" efficiency with the
        ICE range. Our Solectria's are now historical museum displays waiting for a
        place. Maybe just maybe with a little inovation from a few enterprising
        individuals we can keep them going and maybe even make them more practical. It a
        sure thing that the Big Three are not going back to EVs.

        Bouton Baldridge


        rod864 <rod864@...> wrote:
        --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "d. Bouton Baldridge"
        <cfrkeepr@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Say, has anyone tried using a generator to charge while underway?

        If low emission driving is important to you (and for most of us it is,
        or we wouldn't be driving electric), you're better off to buy a small
        ICE car for the trips the Force won't do. You'll find it almost
        impossible to make a series hybrid anywhere close to as clean or as
        efficient as an ordinary ICE-powered small car, let alone an extra
        clean and efficient one such as a Prius or Insight.

        In particular, emissions requirements for (usually) stationary gensets
        are very loose. Most of them are gross polluters. Even the high
        quality ones are appreciably dirtier than an ICE vehicle. You'd
        probably be cleaner driving a Hummer than using one of those to keep
        your Force running.





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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      • theoldcars@aol.com
        Calcars stopped at Portland and showed the Prius on their way to Seattle. They are using small sealed lead acid batteries that are used in an electric bike.
        Message 3 of 29 , Jan 12, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          Calcars stopped at Portland and showed the Prius on their way to Seattle.
          They are using small sealed lead acid batteries that are used in an electric
          bike. If I remember correct they were about 18 Ah. A little bit larger
          batteries would extend the range. It is exactly what our country needs. Then everyone
          would want to be able to plug in and run on electric as much as possible.

          So many new hybrids and EV cars are being developed in Japan the United
          States car manufactures will be forced to respond with similar vehicles.

          Wind is a vast untapped energy source. The following is out of the Cape Cod
          times.


          Earlier this month the Department of Energy along with the Massachusetts
          Technology Collaborative and General Electric, which would build the Cape Wind
          turbines released a proposed framework for the development of offshore wind
          resources.
          The report suggested there are up to 900,000 megawatts of potential energy or
          the rough equivalent of the nation's electrical capacity that can be
          harnessed off America's coast.
          With advances in technology and clear regulatory guidelines the industry
          could tap winds as far off coast as 50 miles.

          Don

          In a message dated 1/12/2006 8:31:23 PM Pacific Standard Time,
          jgrossm3@... writes:

          Consider Plug in Hybrids as an alternative to all electric vehicles. First
          20 or 30 miles on all electric and milage above 20 would run on ICE. Most
          trips daily are less than 20 miles. Plug in at night to recharge. Calcars in
          California is reengineering a Prius as a Plug in hybrid.

          RE:Comments concerning coal polution to create electricity - what about the
          polution generated in the extraction and production of gasoline. Wind
          generation of electricity is also a clean alternative to coal production.
          Jay H Grossman

          theoldcars@... wrote:

          Not everywhere on the West coast has a lot of charging locations.

          In Oregon with almost 100,000 square miles and we have one charging
          location
          in the state that is open 24/7. Yet In the last two years I have replaced
          almost all my driving of an ICE with electric.

          It is not fair to compare EV use and coal. There is plenty of excess power
          at night when most our charging is done.

          I would not say the EV experiment has failed. Really it was restarted just
          a
          little to soon. Better batteries will be made and produced in numbers that
          are affordable and it will change everything. Maybe in one year or ten
          years it
          is just a matter of time but it will happen.

          It would be great to figure out a way to add range but a generator from the
          numbers I have run really do not help much. I have put a lot of hours
          looking
          at generators and their output. My conclusion is a better range extender
          would use the existing ability of the Solectria to generate its own power.

          You would have less weight & conversion of power it is more efficient. A 13
          horsepower Honda motor weighs under 100 pounds. This is complete fuel tank
          and all for less than 600 dollars.

          Don





          In a message dated 1/12/2006 6:59:20 AM Pacific Standard Time,
          cfrkeepr@... writes:

          That all may well be true, but until you get stuck with a dead battery
          (batteries are the weak link) , having a backup is invaluable. Absolutely
          emissions are the main reason, but having a practical means of
          transportation is the
          only way the general public is going to consider the electric vehicle. The
          intent is not to use the generator fulltime, only for those instances of
          unexpected failure, it has happened to me several times. I am one of the few
          Force
          owners with not only a trailer hitch, but solar panels (OEM) too and a tow
          bar which I believe is a necessity. For those of you on the west coast
          where
          EVs are more common more power to you with charge stations galore. On the
          east
          coast its every man for himself. Face it the EV is an experiment, that for
          now is failing. It is our persistence that is keepping it alive. Sure we
          don't
          emit DIRECTLY, but the coal burned to produce the electricity does. The
          true
          value of driving electric is it's effieciency, which is why the hybrids
          are becoming so popular they give the give the "in town" efficiency with
          the
          ICE range. Our Solectria's are now historical museum displays waiting for a
          place. Maybe just maybe with a little inovation from a few enterprising
          individuals we can keep them going and maybe even make them more practical.
          It a
          sure thing that the Big Three are not going back to EVs.

          Bouton Baldridge


          rod864 <rod864@...> wrote:
          --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "d. Bouton Baldridge"
          <cfrkeepr@y...> wrote:
          >
          > Say, has anyone tried using a generator to charge while underway?

          If low emission driving is important to you (and for most of us it is,
          or we wouldn't be driving electric), you're better off to buy a small
          ICE car for the trips the Force won't do. You'll find it almost
          impossible to make a series hybrid anywhere close to as clean or as
          efficient as an ordinary ICE-powered small car, let alone an extra
          clean and efficient one such as a Prius or Insight.

          In particular, emissions requirements for (usually) stationary gensets
          are very loose. Most of them are gross polluters. Even the high
          quality ones are appreciably dirtier than an ICE vehicle. You'd
          probably be cleaner driving a Hummer than using one of those to keep
          your Force running.





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          SPONSORED LINKS
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          Automotive car cover Electric car Alternative fuels

          ---------------------------------
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          Visit your group "solectria_ev" on the web.

          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          solectria_ev-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


          ---------------------------------






          ---------------------------------
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          Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands
          ASAP.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • rod864
          ... I ve never quite understood this concern. AC receptacles are just about the most ubiquitous fueling devices in the US! OK, most of them are 120 volt and
          Message 4 of 29 , Jan 13, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "d. Bouton Baldridge"
            <cfrkeepr@y...> wrote:
            >
            > For those of you on the west coast where EVs are more common
            > more power to you with charge stations galore. On the east
            > coast its every man for himself.

            I've never quite understood this concern. AC receptacles are just
            about the most ubiquitous fueling devices in the US! OK, most of them
            are 120 volt and limited to perhaps 12 amps, but a half-hour or 45
            minutes of that can often buy you enough range to get home.

            Stop by the convenience stores and gas stations on your regular
            routes. Have a brief chat with the manager at each. You'll find that
            some (not all) will be happy to take a couple of bucks from you in
            return for a quarter's worth of power. Ask them to post notes by
            their cash registers with your name and plate number, and a sentence
            stating that you're authorized to buy a charge.

            > Face it the EV is an experiment, that for now is failing.

            I suppose that depends on your perspective. I don't agree.

            > Sure we don't emit DIRECTLY, but the coal burned to produce
            > the electricity does.

            I'll admit that such ultra-clean ICEs as the Toyota Prius give EVs a
            run for their money. But based on conversions, most of the indirect
            emissions from EV charging are markedly lower than the equivalent
            direct emissions from the original vehicle. The reason is that the EV
            is much more efficient than an equivalent ICEV, and power plants have
            gotten cleaner in recent years.

            Besides, EVs can be fueled with 100% renewable fuel, which you can
            make yourself in your own back yard with PV panels. You can't do that
            with a Prius (at least not yet).

            Somebody is going to pop up here and point out (with some
            justification) that some diesels can also be fueled with fuel that one
            can homebrew in his own back yard. I would respond that (1) the
            quantity of recyclable vegetable oil available is limited, and isn't
            going to supply very many vehicles; (2) the emissions are cleaner than
            petrol diesel, but hardly as clean as EVs'; and (3) as I understand
            it, there are byproducts from the process which may pose a disposal
            problem (amenable to correction if I'm misinformed).

            Commercial biodiesel is a very big question mark in my book. There is
            a fair bit of controversy over its energy balance because soybean
            farming in the US is so petroleum-intensive. When you ask the
            question, generally the answer you get depends on who's doing the
            talking and what his agenda is.

            Besides, I'm rather uncomfortable with burning good soybeans in my car
            when there are so many starving people in the world. Show me that you
            can extract the oil from soybeans and still use them for high quality
            protein, and then we'll talk. (Maybe it can be done; I don't know.)

            At this point I don't think anything else can match the environmental
            sustainability of a PV-fueled EV. I'm willing to listen to arguments,
            though.

            > Our Solectria's are now historical museum displays waiting for
            > a place.

            Great! I'll start a museum and you can donate yours to it. <grin>
          • d. Bouton Baldridge
            All of your points are well taken and I agree. My comments were not meant to provoke, I was responding to statements about my interest in exploring the use of
            Message 5 of 29 , Jan 14, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              All of your points are well taken and I agree. My comments were not meant to provoke, I was responding to statements about my interest in exploring the use of a generator to extend and in some cases diffuse an unfortunate but all too real stranding. What was said in the reply missed the point and tried to convince the readers that such behavior was undignified of a true EVer. I guess I reacted rather exaggeratedly when I was trying to justify my interest. In a perfect world we would not even need automobiles, we'd just beam ourselves to where ever. In the mean time those of us pioneers must work at keeping the concept of efficient and practical use of the EV in the minds of those not yet enlightened. It does no good for the cause when we must tell our neighbors that we had to be towed because our battery failed. The west coast is blessed with people of vision and we elsewhere are grateful. The failure I speak of is only that our manufacturers have dropped all EV programs so those of
              us with the few remaining Evs are bearing the burden of making sure the idea does not dissappear. This is even more accute in parts of the country where it did not manifest itself at all in the first place. I appreciate all of the efforts of the people who make up this forum and for those who steadfastly lobbyed to get these cars built. There is no doubt in my mind that the next producton EV in the US will be coming from India and China. Until that happens for better or worse, we who have made the commitment to keep these EVs going are facing increased cost of service and parts which is truely unfortunate because this will also not help our case. I guess my piont is that we need to remain unified and continue to support each other.
              Thanks for being there.

              Bouty

              rod864 <rod864@...> wrote:
              --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "d. Bouton Baldridge"
              <cfrkeepr@y...> wrote:
              >
              > For those of you on the west coast where EVs are more common
              > more power to you with charge stations galore. On the east
              > coast its every man for himself.

              I've never quite understood this concern. AC receptacles are just
              about the most ubiquitous fueling devices in the US! OK, most of them
              are 120 volt and limited to perhaps 12 amps, but a half-hour or 45
              minutes of that can often buy you enough range to get home.

              Stop by the convenience stores and gas stations on your regular
              routes. Have a brief chat with the manager at each. You'll find that
              some (not all) will be happy to take a couple of bucks from you in
              return for a quarter's worth of power. Ask them to post notes by
              their cash registers with your name and plate number, and a sentence
              stating that you're authorized to buy a charge.

              > Face it the EV is an experiment, that for now is failing.

              I suppose that depends on your perspective. I don't agree.

              > Sure we don't emit DIRECTLY, but the coal burned to produce
              > the electricity does.

              I'll admit that such ultra-clean ICEs as the Toyota Prius give EVs a
              run for their money. But based on conversions, most of the indirect
              emissions from EV charging are markedly lower than the equivalent
              direct emissions from the original vehicle. The reason is that the EV
              is much more efficient than an equivalent ICEV, and power plants have
              gotten cleaner in recent years.

              Besides, EVs can be fueled with 100% renewable fuel, which you can
              make yourself in your own back yard with PV panels. You can't do that
              with a Prius (at least not yet).

              Somebody is going to pop up here and point out (with some
              justification) that some diesels can also be fueled with fuel that one
              can homebrew in his own back yard. I would respond that (1) the
              quantity of recyclable vegetable oil available is limited, and isn't
              going to supply very many vehicles; (2) the emissions are cleaner than
              petrol diesel, but hardly as clean as EVs'; and (3) as I understand
              it, there are byproducts from the process which may pose a disposal
              problem (amenable to correction if I'm misinformed).

              Commercial biodiesel is a very big question mark in my book. There is
              a fair bit of controversy over its energy balance because soybean
              farming in the US is so petroleum-intensive. When you ask the
              question, generally the answer you get depends on who's doing the
              talking and what his agenda is.

              Besides, I'm rather uncomfortable with burning good soybeans in my car
              when there are so many starving people in the world. Show me that you
              can extract the oil from soybeans and still use them for high quality
              protein, and then we'll talk. (Maybe it can be done; I don't know.)

              At this point I don't think anything else can match the environmental
              sustainability of a PV-fueled EV. I'm willing to listen to arguments,
              though.

              > Our Solectria's are now historical museum displays waiting for
              > a place.

              Great! I'll start a museum and you can donate yours to it. <grin>






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              Visit your group "solectria_ev" on the web.

              To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              solectria_ev-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


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            • theoldcars@aol.com
              I think all of us using lead acid batteries at one time or another wish we had something for an emergency. The Brusa charger puts in about 6 Ah per hour back
              Message 6 of 29 , Jan 14, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                I think all of us using lead acid batteries at one time or another wish we
                had something for an emergency.

                The Brusa charger puts in about 6 Ah per hour back in the pack. This is at
                3.3 kW which would take at least a 3.5 K generator. It would take a 8
                horsepower generator and I have found they weigh from 120 to 200 pounds. You really
                have to look at the generators ability to handle a constant output or prime
                power.

                Are you driving a Force? Adding 150 plus pounds is going to slightly reduce
                your range and lower the performance a little also. Plus I don't know of a
                generator that would fit in the trunk. It would not be an easy task putting one
                in the back seat if you even could get it in the opening.

                The other option of pulling a trailer. I would consider a small trailer with
                batteries before trying to charge while driving. Pulling a trailer is not h
                ard but it is not fun either. It will also make finding a parking spot
                difficult. A trailer is going to reduce your range and performance.

                A smaller 120 volt generator would get you back home but depending on how
                far you have to go it could take a very long time. A Honda EU 2000i would be a
                nice little 120 volt unit at 46.3 pounds. It will handle 1.6 prime and is 56
                db at 7 meters. Using 120 volts for charging should be done very sparingly. I
                would not recommend charging at 120 except in an absolute emergency. You
                could buy two sets of batteries and still be money ahead if you burn out the
                charger. It would be less expensive to buy another set of batteries.

                I am not sure 1.6 kW would be enough for the Brusa charging at 120 volts.
                Anyone know what the Brusa charger pulls at 120 volts?

                Don






                In a message dated 1/14/2006 12:03:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                cfrkeepr@... writes:

                All of your points are well taken and I agree. My comments were not meant to
                provoke, I was responding to statements about my interest in exploring the
                use of a generator to extend and in some cases diffuse an unfortunate but all
                too real stranding. What was said in the reply missed the point and tried to
                convince the readers that such behavior was undignified of a true EVer. I
                guess I reacted rather exaggeratedly when I was trying to justify my interest.
                In a perfect world we would not even need automobiles, we'd just beam
                ourselves to where ever. In the mean time those of us pioneers must work at keeping
                the concept of efficient and practical use of the EV in the minds of those not
                yet enlightened. It does no good for the cause when we must tell our
                neighbors that we had to be towed because our battery failed. The west coast is
                blessed with people of vision and we elsewhere are grateful. The failure I speak
                of is only that our manufacturers have dropped all EV programs so those of
                us with the few remaining Evs are bearing the burden of making sure the idea
                does not dissappear. This is even more accute in parts of the country where
                it did not manifest itself at all in the first place. I appreciate all of the
                efforts of the people who make up this forum and for those who steadfastly
                lobbyed to get these cars built. There is no doubt in my mind that the next
                producton EV in the US will be coming from India and China. Until that happens
                for better or worse, we who have made the commitment to keep these EVs going
                are facing increased cost of service and parts which is truely unfortunate
                because this will also not help our case. I guess my piont is that we need to
                remain unified and continue to support each other.
                Thanks for being there.

                Bouty

                rod864 <rod864@...> wrote:
                --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "d. Bouton Baldridge"
                <cfrkeepr@y...> wrote:
                >
                > For those of you on the west coast where EVs are more common
                > more power to you with charge stations galore. On the east
                > coast its every man for himself.

                I've never quite understood this concern. AC receptacles are just
                about the most ubiquitous fueling devices in the US! OK, most of them
                are 120 volt and limited to perhaps 12 amps, but a half-hour or 45
                minutes of that can often buy you enough range to get home.

                Stop by the convenience stores and gas stations on your regular
                routes. Have a brief chat with the manager at each. You'll find that
                some (not all) will be happy to take a couple of bucks from you in
                return for a quarter's worth of power. Ask them to post notes by
                their cash registers with your name and plate number, and a sentence
                stating that you're authorized to buy a charge.

                > Face it the EV is an experiment, that for now is failing.

                I suppose that depends on your perspective. I don't agree.

                > Sure we don't emit DIRECTLY, but the coal burned to produce
                > the electricity does.

                I'll admit that such ultra-clean ICEs as the Toyota Prius give EVs a
                run for their money. But based on conversions, most of the indirect
                emissions from EV charging are markedly lower than the equivalent
                direct emissions from the original vehicle. The reason is that the EV
                is much more efficient than an equivalent ICEV, and power plants have
                gotten cleaner in recent years.

                Besides, EVs can be fueled with 100% renewable fuel, which you can
                make yourself in your own back yard with PV panels. You can't do that
                with a Prius (at least not yet).

                Somebody is going to pop up here and point out (with some
                justification) that some diesels can also be fueled with fuel that one
                can homebrew in his own back yard. I would respond that (1) the
                quantity of recyclable vegetable oil available is limited, and isn't
                going to supply very many vehicles; (2) the emissions are cleaner than
                petrol diesel, but hardly as clean as EVs'; and (3) as I understand
                it, there are byproducts from the process which may pose a disposal
                problem (amenable to correction if I'm misinformed).

                Commercial biodiesel is a very big question mark in my book. There is
                a fair bit of controversy over its energy balance because soybean
                farming in the US is so petroleum-intensive. When you ask the
                question, generally the answer you get depends on who's doing the
                talking and what his agenda is.

                Besides, I'm rather uncomfortable with burning good soybeans in my car
                when there are so many starving people in the world. Show me that you
                can extract the oil from soybeans and still use them for high quality
                protein, and then we'll talk. (Maybe it can be done; I don't know.)

                At this point I don't think anything else can match the environmental
                sustainability of a PV-fueled EV. I'm willing to listen to arguments,
                though.

                > Our Solectria's are now historical museum displays waiting for
                > a place.

                Great! I'll start a museum and you can donate yours to it. <grin>






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              • ldr214
                Don, You sound pretty familiar with the little Honda 200i generator. I don t know if you have one. I have transported mine in the trunk of the Force, (97 with
                Message 7 of 29 , Jan 14, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  Don,
                  You sound pretty familiar with the little Honda 200i generator. I
                  don't know if you have one. I have transported mine in the trunk of
                  the Force, (97 with U27 gel configuration.) To close the trunk you
                  have to make sure the generator handle is lined up so the thicker
                  support part of the trunk lid misses it upon closing. I never tried
                  charging the car with it. I was taking the generator in for service
                  and wanted to drive cheap.

                  Short range on the Pba batteries is a fact of life and one that has
                  some positive aspects. Cab fare and towing should both be reasonable.

                  Mike
                  PS
                  You can always get out and push it for a few AH in regen if you have
                  some really strong friends.


                  --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, theoldcars@a... wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > I think all of us using lead acid batteries at one time or another
                  wish we
                  > had something for an emergency.
                  >
                  > The Brusa charger puts in about 6 Ah per hour back in the pack. This
                  is at
                  > 3.3 kW which would take at least a 3.5 K generator. It would take a 8
                  > horsepower generator and I have found they weigh from 120 to 200
                  pounds. You really
                  > have to look at the generators ability to handle a constant output
                  or prime
                  > power.
                  >
                  > Are you driving a Force? Adding 150 plus pounds is going to slightly
                  reduce
                  > your range and lower the performance a little also. Plus I don't
                  know of a
                  > generator that would fit in the trunk. It would not be an easy task
                  putting one
                  > in the back seat if you even could get it in the opening.
                  >
                  > The other option of pulling a trailer. I would consider a small
                  trailer with
                  > batteries before trying to charge while driving. Pulling a trailer
                  is not h
                  > ard but it is not fun either. It will also make finding a parking spot
                  > difficult. A trailer is going to reduce your range and performance.
                  >
                  > A smaller 120 volt generator would get you back home but depending
                  on how
                  > far you have to go it could take a very long time. A Honda EU 2000i
                  would be a
                  > nice little 120 volt unit at 46.3 pounds. It will handle 1.6 prime
                  and is 56
                  > db at 7 meters. Using 120 volts for charging should be done very
                  sparingly. I
                  > would not recommend charging at 120 except in an absolute
                  emergency. You
                  > could buy two sets of batteries and still be money ahead if you
                  burn out the
                  > charger. It would be less expensive to buy another set of batteries.
                  >
                  > I am not sure 1.6 kW would be enough for the Brusa charging at 120
                  volts.
                  > Anyone know what the Brusa charger pulls at 120 volts?
                  >
                  > Don
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > In a message dated 1/14/2006 12:03:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                  > cfrkeepr@y... writes:
                  >
                  > All of your points are well taken and I agree. My comments were not
                  meant to
                  > provoke, I was responding to statements about my interest in
                  exploring the
                  > use of a generator to extend and in some cases diffuse an
                  unfortunate but all
                  > too real stranding. What was said in the reply missed the point and
                  tried to
                  > convince the readers that such behavior was undignified of a true
                  EVer. I
                  > guess I reacted rather exaggeratedly when I was trying to justify
                  my interest.
                  > In a perfect world we would not even need automobiles, we'd just beam
                  > ourselves to where ever. In the mean time those of us pioneers must
                  work at keeping
                  > the concept of efficient and practical use of the EV in the minds
                  of those not
                  > yet enlightened. It does no good for the cause when we must tell our
                  > neighbors that we had to be towed because our battery failed. The
                  west coast is
                  > blessed with people of vision and we elsewhere are grateful. The
                  failure I speak
                  > of is only that our manufacturers have dropped all EV programs so
                  those of
                  > us with the few remaining Evs are bearing the burden of making sure
                  the idea
                  > does not dissappear. This is even more accute in parts of the
                  country where
                  > it did not manifest itself at all in the first place. I appreciate
                  all of the
                  > efforts of the people who make up this forum and for those who
                  steadfastly
                  > lobbyed to get these cars built. There is no doubt in my mind that
                  the next
                  > producton EV in the US will be coming from India and China. Until
                  that happens
                  > for better or worse, we who have made the commitment to keep these
                  EVs going
                  > are facing increased cost of service and parts which is truely
                  unfortunate
                  > because this will also not help our case. I guess my piont is that
                  we need to
                  > remain unified and continue to support each other.
                  > Thanks for being there.
                  >
                  > Bouty
                  >
                  > rod864 <rod864@y...> wrote:
                  > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "d. Bouton Baldridge"
                  > <cfrkeepr@y...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > For those of you on the west coast where EVs are more common
                  > > more power to you with charge stations galore. On the east
                  > > coast its every man for himself.
                  >
                  > I've never quite understood this concern. AC receptacles are just
                  > about the most ubiquitous fueling devices in the US! OK, most of them
                  > are 120 volt and limited to perhaps 12 amps, but a half-hour or 45
                  > minutes of that can often buy you enough range to get home.
                  >
                  > Stop by the convenience stores and gas stations on your regular
                  > routes. Have a brief chat with the manager at each. You'll find that
                  > some (not all) will be happy to take a couple of bucks from you in
                  > return for a quarter's worth of power. Ask them to post notes by
                  > their cash registers with your name and plate number, and a sentence
                  > stating that you're authorized to buy a charge.
                  >
                  > > Face it the EV is an experiment, that for now is failing.
                  >
                  > I suppose that depends on your perspective. I don't agree.
                  >
                  > > Sure we don't emit DIRECTLY, but the coal burned to produce
                  > > the electricity does.
                  >
                  > I'll admit that such ultra-clean ICEs as the Toyota Prius give EVs a
                  > run for their money. But based on conversions, most of the indirect
                  > emissions from EV charging are markedly lower than the equivalent
                  > direct emissions from the original vehicle. The reason is that the EV
                  > is much more efficient than an equivalent ICEV, and power plants have
                  > gotten cleaner in recent years.
                  >
                  > Besides, EVs can be fueled with 100% renewable fuel, which you can
                  > make yourself in your own back yard with PV panels. You can't do that
                  > with a Prius (at least not yet).
                  >
                  > Somebody is going to pop up here and point out (with some
                  > justification) that some diesels can also be fueled with fuel that one
                  > can homebrew in his own back yard. I would respond that (1) the
                  > quantity of recyclable vegetable oil available is limited, and isn't
                  > going to supply very many vehicles; (2) the emissions are cleaner than
                  > petrol diesel, but hardly as clean as EVs'; and (3) as I understand
                  > it, there are byproducts from the process which may pose a disposal
                  > problem (amenable to correction if I'm misinformed).
                  >
                  > Commercial biodiesel is a very big question mark in my book. There is
                  > a fair bit of controversy over its energy balance because soybean
                  > farming in the US is so petroleum-intensive. When you ask the
                  > question, generally the answer you get depends on who's doing the
                  > talking and what his agenda is.
                  >
                  > Besides, I'm rather uncomfortable with burning good soybeans in my car
                  > when there are so many starving people in the world. Show me that you
                  > can extract the oil from soybeans and still use them for high quality
                  > protein, and then we'll talk. (Maybe it can be done; I don't know.)
                  >
                  > At this point I don't think anything else can match the environmental
                  > sustainability of a PV-fueled EV. I'm willing to listen to arguments,
                  > though.
                  >
                  > > Our Solectria's are now historical museum displays waiting for
                  > > a place.
                  >
                  > Great! I'll start a museum and you can donate yours to it. <grin>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > SPONSORED LINKS
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                  > Automotive car cover Electric car Alternative fuels
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
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                  >
                  >
                  > Visit your group "solectria_ev" on the web.
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > solectria_ev-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
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                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                  > Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it!
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
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                  >
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                  >
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                  >
                • theoldcars@aol.com
                  Hello Mike I have looked at a lot of generators mostly 240 volt to get an idea of weight and size. The light weight and size of the Honda 2000i is very good.
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jan 14, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hello Mike

                    I have looked at a lot of generators mostly 240 volt to get an idea of
                    weight and size. The light weight and size of the Honda 2000i is very good. There
                    is one on eBay right now they ran for 13,000 hours before it stopped working.
                    I don't have one but I have always been very happy with Honda products.

                    A generator that I could put in the Force but it would be tempting for trips
                    that push your range. For me in this weather (37 degrees) that is around 16
                    miles. I have new batteries U27 Gel but I have been wanting to see how long
                    these will go.

                    Before I would call a tow truck I would be calling a friend.

                    There already is a huge generator in the Force. Just use an ICE with a very
                    strong tow rope. In about one mile the Force would put 2 to 3 Ah in the pack
                    with regen on. Just a few minutes of towing and you could get home on your
                    own.

                    Don


                    In a message dated 1/14/2006 6:51:40 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                    replytome@... writes:

                    Don,
                    You sound pretty familiar with the little Honda 200i generator. I
                    don't know if you have one. I have transported mine in the trunk of
                    the Force, (97 with U27 gel configuration.) To close the trunk you
                    have to make sure the generator handle is lined up so the thicker
                    support part of the trunk lid misses it upon closing. I never tried
                    charging the car with it. I was taking the generator in for service
                    and wanted to drive cheap.

                    Short range on the Pba batteries is a fact of life and one that has
                    some positive aspects. Cab fare and towing should both be reasonable.

                    Mike
                    PS
                    You can always get out and push it for a few AH in regen if you have
                    some really strong friends.


                    --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, theoldcars@a... wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > I think all of us using lead acid batteries at one time or another
                    wish we
                    > had something for an emergency.
                    >
                    > The Brusa charger puts in about 6 Ah per hour back in the pack. This
                    is at
                    > 3.3 kW which would take at least a 3.5 K generator. It would take a 8
                    > horsepower generator and I have found they weigh from 120 to 200
                    pounds. You really
                    > have to look at the generators ability to handle a constant output
                    or prime
                    > power.
                    >
                    > Are you driving a Force? Adding 150 plus pounds is going to slightly
                    reduce
                    > your range and lower the performance a little also. Plus I don't
                    know of a
                    > generator that would fit in the trunk. It would not be an easy task
                    putting one
                    > in the back seat if you even could get it in the opening.
                    >
                    > The other option of pulling a trailer. I would consider a small
                    trailer with
                    > batteries before trying to charge while driving. Pulling a trailer
                    is not h
                    > ard but it is not fun either. It will also make finding a parking spot
                    > difficult. A trailer is going to reduce your range and performance.
                    >
                    > A smaller 120 volt generator would get you back home but depending
                    on how
                    > far you have to go it could take a very long time. A Honda EU 2000i
                    would be a
                    > nice little 120 volt unit at 46.3 pounds. It will handle 1.6 prime
                    and is 56
                    > db at 7 meters. Using 120 volts for charging should be done very
                    sparingly. I
                    > would not recommend charging at 120 except in an absolute
                    emergency. You
                    > could buy two sets of batteries and still be money ahead if you
                    burn out the
                    > charger. It would be less expensive to buy another set of batteries.
                    >
                    > I am not sure 1.6 kW would be enough for the Brusa charging at 120
                    volts.
                    > Anyone know what the Brusa charger pulls at 120 volts?
                    >
                    > Don
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > In a message dated 1/14/2006 12:03:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                    > cfrkeepr@y... writes:
                    >
                    > All of your points are well taken and I agree. My comments were not
                    meant to
                    > provoke, I was responding to statements about my interest in
                    exploring the
                    > use of a generator to extend and in some cases diffuse an
                    unfortunate but all
                    > too real stranding. What was said in the reply missed the point and
                    tried to
                    > convince the readers that such behavior was undignified of a true
                    EVer. I
                    > guess I reacted rather exaggeratedly when I was trying to justify
                    my interest.
                    > In a perfect world we would not even need automobiles, we'd just beam
                    > ourselves to where ever. In the mean time those of us pioneers must
                    work at keeping
                    > the concept of efficient and practical use of the EV in the minds
                    of those not
                    > yet enlightened. It does no good for the cause when we must tell our
                    > neighbors that we had to be towed because our battery failed. The
                    west coast is
                    > blessed with people of vision and we elsewhere are grateful. The
                    failure I speak
                    > of is only that our manufacturers have dropped all EV programs so
                    those of
                    > us with the few remaining Evs are bearing the burden of making sure
                    the idea
                    > does not dissappear. This is even more accute in parts of the
                    country where
                    > it did not manifest itself at all in the first place. I appreciate
                    all of the
                    > efforts of the people who make up this forum and for those who
                    steadfastly
                    > lobbyed to get these cars built. There is no doubt in my mind that
                    the next
                    > producton EV in the US will be coming from India and China. Until
                    that happens
                    > for better or worse, we who have made the commitment to keep these
                    EVs going
                    > are facing increased cost of service and parts which is truely
                    unfortunate
                    > because this will also not help our case. I guess my piont is that
                    we need to
                    > remain unified and continue to support each other.
                    > Thanks for being there.
                    >
                    > Bouty
                    >
                    > rod864 <rod864@y...> wrote:
                    > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "d. Bouton Baldridge"
                    > <cfrkeepr@y...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > For those of you on the west coast where EVs are more common
                    > > more power to you with charge stations galore. On the east
                    > > coast its every man for himself.
                    >
                    > I've never quite understood this concern. AC receptacles are just
                    > about the most ubiquitous fueling devices in the US! OK, most of them
                    > are 120 volt and limited to perhaps 12 amps, but a half-hour or 45
                    > minutes of that can often buy you enough range to get home.
                    >
                    > Stop by the convenience stores and gas stations on your regular
                    > routes. Have a brief chat with the manager at each. You'll find that
                    > some (not all) will be happy to take a couple of bucks from you in
                    > return for a quarter's worth of power. Ask them to post notes by
                    > their cash registers with your name and plate number, and a sentence
                    > stating that you're authorized to buy a charge.
                    >
                    > > Face it the EV is an experiment, that for now is failing.
                    >
                    > I suppose that depends on your perspective. I don't agree.
                    >
                    > > Sure we don't emit DIRECTLY, but the coal burned to produce
                    > > the electricity does.
                    >
                    > I'll admit that such ultra-clean ICEs as the Toyota Prius give EVs a
                    > run for their money. But based on conversions, most of the indirect
                    > emissions from EV charging are markedly lower than the equivalent
                    > direct emissions from the original vehicle. The reason is that the EV
                    > is much more efficient than an equivalent ICEV, and power plants have
                    > gotten cleaner in recent years.
                    >
                    > Besides, EVs can be fueled with 100% renewable fuel, which you can
                    > make yourself in your own back yard with PV panels. You can't do that
                    > with a Prius (at least not yet).
                    >
                    > Somebody is going to pop up here and point out (with some
                    > justification) that some diesels can also be fueled with fuel that one
                    > can homebrew in his own back yard. I would respond that (1) the
                    > quantity of recyclable vegetable oil available is limited, and isn't
                    > going to supply very many vehicles; (2) the emissions are cleaner than
                    > petrol diesel, but hardly as clean as EVs'; and (3) as I understand
                    > it, there are byproducts from the process which may pose a disposal
                    > problem (amenable to correction if I'm misinformed).
                    >
                    > Commercial biodiesel is a very big question mark in my book. There is
                    > a fair bit of controversy over its energy balance because soybean
                    > farming in the US is so petroleum-intensive. When you ask the
                    > question, generally the answer you get depends on who's doing the
                    > talking and what his agenda is.
                    >
                    > Besides, I'm rather uncomfortable with burning good soybeans in my car
                    > when there are so many starving people in the world. Show me that you
                    > can extract the oil from soybeans and still use them for high quality
                    > protein, and then we'll talk. (Maybe it can be done; I don't know.)
                    >
                    > At this point I don't think anything else can match the environmental
                    > sustainability of a PV-fueled EV. I'm willing to listen to arguments,
                    > though.
                    >
                    > > Our Solectria's are now historical museum displays waiting for
                    > > a place.
                    >
                    > Great! I'll start a museum and you can donate yours to it. <grin>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > SPONSORED LINKS
                    > Automotive car part Automotive fuel cell Automotive fuel tank
                    > Automotive car cover Electric car Alternative fuels
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                    >
                    >
                    > Visit your group "solectria_ev" on the web.
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > solectria_ev-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
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                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
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                    > Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it!
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                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                  • Ken Olum
                    From: theoldcars@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 19:03:17 EST The Brusa charger puts in about 6 Ah per hour back in the pack. This is at 3.3 kW... Either this
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jan 17, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      From: theoldcars@...
                      Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 19:03:17 EST

                      The Brusa charger puts in about 6 Ah per hour back in the pack. This is at
                      3.3 kW...

                      Either this is a typo or something is wrong with your charger. It
                      should be about 18A output. The input power of 3.3kW is correct.

                      I am not sure 1.6 kW would be enough for the Brusa charging at 120 volts.
                      Anyone know what the Brusa charger pulls at 120 volts?

                      It should be about 800W. It's proportional to the square of the
                      voltage.

                      Ken
                    • theoldcars@aol.com
                      Hello Ken I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger. Charging at 240 volts for one hour I have notice the Brusa puts about 6 Ah
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jan 17, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hello Ken

                        I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger.
                        Charging at 240 volts for one hour I have notice the Brusa puts about 6 Ah
                        back in the pack until it reaches the finishing charge.

                        I used the Ah gauge as it gives you a real world amount of range your going
                        to get. I live in an area of some very steep hills. There is nothing wrong
                        with my car and I average 1.5 Ah per mile. I would like to add if it was not for
                        the regen it would be at or over 2.0 Ah per mile. I pick up close to 30
                        percent and try to make the regen last as long as possible. If an ICE is behind
                        me that does not happen. If I get out of the area I have found I get about
                        1.0 Ah per mile and maybe even a little better if it is slow and no stopping.

                        At this site _http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/charger.shtml#sol_
                        (http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/charger.shtml#sol) the Brusa is 120 volts with
                        12 Amps in and 10 Amps out. Going by that would 1440 watts be correct?

                        Don

                        In a message dated 1/17/2006 8:10:05 AM Pacific Standard Time,
                        kdo@... writes:

                        From: theoldcars@...
                        Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 19:03:17 EST

                        The Brusa charger puts in about 6 Ah per hour back in the pack. This is at
                        3.3 kW...

                        Either this is a typo or something is wrong with your charger. It
                        should be about 18A output. The input power of 3.3kW is correct.

                        I am not sure 1.6 kW would be enough for the Brusa charging at 120 volts.
                        Anyone know what the Brusa charger pulls at 120 volts?

                        It should be about 800W. It's proportional to the square of the
                        voltage.

                        Ken






                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Ken Olum
                        From: theoldcars@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 15:58:26 EST I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger. Charging at 240 volts
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jan 17, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          From: theoldcars@...
                          Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 15:58:26 EST

                          I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger.
                          Charging at 240 volts for one hour I have notice the Brusa puts about 6 Ah
                          back in the pack until it reaches the finishing charge.

                          What pack voltage are we talking about? Is it 156V nominal, like
                          mine? Are you measuring it when the pack is significantly discharged?
                          If so, something is wrong. It should be more than 3kW output, which
                          means at least 17A into 170V.

                          At this site _http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/charger.shtml#sol_
                          (http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/charger.shtml#sol) the Brusa is 120 volts with
                          12 Amps in and 10 Amps out. Going by that would 1440 watts be correct?

                          Assuming the charger is a Brusa NLG-412, I think this is wrong, unless
                          you get a special-purpose version of the charger (NLG-4121) that is
                          intended for low input voltage.

                          Ken
                        • Stephen Taylor
                          Don: I think Ken is right. The charger should be lowering your AH guage by something closer to 18AH per hour not 6AHs when using a 240 volt outlet. In other
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jan 17, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Don:

                            I think Ken is right. The charger should be lowering your AH guage by something closer to 18AH per hour not 6AHs when using a 240 volt outlet. In other words, after one hour of charging you should be gaining back about 12 to 18 miles of extra range, it sounds like you are getting about 1/3 of that.

                            Of course the rate does slow down substanially as the batteries get closer to full, maybe that is where the confusion is.

                            Stephen Taylor



                            theoldcars@... wrote:
                            Hello Ken

                            I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger.
                            Charging at 240 volts for one hour I have notice the Brusa puts about 6 Ah
                            back in the pack until it reaches the finishing charge.



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                          • theoldcars@aol.com
                            Is the Amp hour gauge in the dash is going to be close to the same as the Amps being put in by the charger? Even with new batteries your going to have some
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jan 18, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Is the Amp hour gauge in the dash is going to be close to the same as the
                              Amps being put in by the charger? Even with new batteries your going to have
                              some loss?

                              I am charging only with 240 volts. The batteries are the original Gel making
                              them at least eight years old with close to 19,000 miles. Sounds like they
                              must be causing a huge amount of resistance.

                              I have placed a clamp meter at the charger it is putting in 15 to 16 Amps at
                              the start of charging and after a while drops to 12 to 14 Amps. I have time
                              it and never has been more than 6 Ah on the dash for the last year. I have
                              only had this Solectria for a one and a half years and it had 14,500 to start
                              with. I do not have any experience with new batteries.

                              It would be interesting to know what others are getting in the first hour
                              back on your Ah gauge on the dash with 240 and 120. Even just using a watch and
                              giving a rough idea how long it takes to put in one Ah. You should be
                              putting in one Ah in three minutes and thirty-five seconds at 18 Ah per hour rate.

                              I was basing the value of a small generator on how fast my batteries were
                              charging on 240. I am guessing if your charging at 120 with good batteries you
                              should be in the range of 6 Ah back in the pack in an hour?

                              That would make a huge difference. Being able to keep the weight of a
                              generator to 45 pounds would be worth adding another charger like a PFC 30. Then
                              you could charge at 120 and not risk damaging the Brusa.


                              Don

                              In a message dated 1/17/2006 2:06:23 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                              sparrow262@... writes:

                              Don:

                              I think Ken is right. The charger should be lowering your AH guage by
                              something closer to 18AH per hour not 6AHs when using a 240 volt outlet. In other
                              words, after one hour of charging you should be gaining back about 12 to 18
                              miles of extra range, it sounds like you are getting about 1/3 of that.

                              Of course the rate does slow down substanially as the batteries get closer
                              to full, maybe that is where the confusion is.

                              Stephen Taylor



                              theoldcars@... wrote:
                              Hello Ken

                              I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger.
                              Charging at 240 volts for one hour I have notice the Brusa puts about 6 Ah
                              back in the pack until it reaches the finishing charge.



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                            • Stephen Taylor
                              I am charging my 156 volt NiCD Force right now. One hour ago the AH guage read 49AH, it now reads 34AH so it went down 15AHs in one hour. I ll check my lead
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jan 18, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I am charging my 156 volt NiCD Force right now. One hour ago the AH guage read 49AH, it now reads 34AH so it went down 15AHs in one hour.

                                I'll check my lead acid car this afternoon, but my AH guage in it has a funny problem. When it is charging or regenerating it overestimates the amount of energy put back by about 40%. It does this anytime the AH guage is going down (charging or regen) and the number is XX.40 or XX.X4. The next number after XX.40 as it is charging is XX.19 and the next number after XX.X4 is XX.X1 when charging. It does this everytime, but only going down it counts up properly. So what I'm saying is that I will see my AH guage go down in that car by almost 25AH in one hour and of course I see huge negative numbers before the overcharge is done.

                                If you know the charger is putting in 15 to 16 amps into the batteries, it sounds like your AH guage is not counting it properly. Kind of the opposite of what mine is doing. Does your AH guage eventually go to negative numbers during the overcharge? Is the guage always starting at zero after you unplug it from a full charge or are there times it doesn't quite reach zero?

                                Stephen Taylor

                                theoldcars@... wrote:

                                Is the Amp hour gauge in the dash is going to be close to the same as the
                                Amps being put in by the charger? Even with new batteries your going to have
                                some loss?

                                I am charging only with 240 volts. The batteries are the original Gel making
                                them at least eight years old with close to 19,000 miles. Sounds like they
                                must be causing a huge amount of resistance.

                                I have placed a clamp meter at the charger it is putting in 15 to 16 Amps at
                                the start of charging and after a while drops to 12 to 14 Amps. I have time
                                it and never has been more than 6 Ah on the dash for the last year. I have
                                only had this Solectria for a one and a half years and it had 14,500 to start
                                with. I do not have any experience with new batteries.

                                It would be interesting to know what others are getting in the first hour
                                back on your Ah gauge on the dash with 240 and 120. Even just using a watch and
                                giving a rough idea how long it takes to put in one Ah. You should be
                                putting in one Ah in three minutes and thirty-five seconds at 18 Ah per hour rate.

                                I was basing the value of a small generator on how fast my batteries were
                                charging on 240. I am guessing if your charging at 120 with good batteries you
                                should be in the range of 6 Ah back in the pack in an hour?

                                That would make a huge difference. Being able to keep the weight of a
                                generator to 45 pounds would be worth adding another charger like a PFC 30. Then
                                you could charge at 120 and not risk damaging the Brusa.


                                Don

                                In a message dated 1/17/2006 2:06:23 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                                sparrow262@... writes:

                                Don:

                                I think Ken is right. The charger should be lowering your AH guage by
                                something closer to 18AH per hour not 6AHs when using a 240 volt outlet. In other
                                words, after one hour of charging you should be gaining back about 12 to 18
                                miles of extra range, it sounds like you are getting about 1/3 of that.

                                Of course the rate does slow down substanially as the batteries get closer
                                to full, maybe that is where the confusion is.

                                Stephen Taylor



                                theoldcars@... wrote:
                                Hello Ken

                                I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger.
                                Charging at 240 volts for one hour I have notice the Brusa puts about 6 Ah
                                back in the pack until it reaches the finishing charge.



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                              • Stephen Taylor
                                OK I ran my lead acid Force this afternoon. During the first six minutes of charging my guage went from 14.05 to 11.07 or down 2.98 AHs. At that rate in one
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jan 18, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  OK I ran my lead acid Force this afternoon. During the first six minutes of charging my guage went from 14.05 to 11.07 or down 2.98 AHs. At that rate in one hour it would be down 29.8 AHs. As I said before it skips from .40 to .19 everytime and similarly with the hundreds of an AH column. This is a 40% error so subtracting 40% from 29.8 leaves 17.88 AHs. So 17.88 AH per hour is the actual reduction my AH guage should be seeing during full power charging. Full power charging I believe continues until the batteries reach 183.3 volts at which point the charger begins it constant voltage phase so the amps begin to throttle back.

                                  Stephen Taylor

                                  theoldcars@... wrote:
                                  Even just using a watch and
                                  giving a rough idea how long it takes to put in one Ah. You should be
                                  putting in one Ah in three minutes and thirty-five seconds at 18 Ah per hour rate.

                                  Don



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                                • theoldcars@aol.com
                                  Hello Stephen Thanks checking and posting the information. So if it is 18 Ah from 240 would it be 9 Ah at 120 in an hour? Don In a message dated 1/18/2006
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jan 18, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hello Stephen

                                    Thanks checking and posting the information. So if it is 18 Ah from 240
                                    would it be 9 Ah at 120 in an hour?


                                    Don

                                    In a message dated 1/18/2006 1:50:26 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                                    sparrow262@... writes:


                                    OK I ran my lead acid Force this afternoon. During the first six minutes of
                                    charging my guage went from 14.05 to 11.07 or down 2.98 AHs. At that rate
                                    in one hour it would be down 29.8 AHs. As I said before it skips from .40
                                    to .19 everytime and similarly with the hundreds of an AH column. This is a
                                    40% error so subtracting 40% from 29.8 leaves 17.88 AHs. So 17.88 AH per hour
                                    is the actual reduction my AH guage should be seeing during full power
                                    charging. Full power charging I believe continues until the batteries reach 183.3
                                    volts at which point the charger begins it constant voltage phase so the
                                    amps begin to throttle back.

                                    Stephen Taylor

                                    theoldcars@... wrote:
                                    Even just using a watch and
                                    giving a rough idea how long it takes to put in one Ah. You should be
                                    putting in one Ah in three minutes and thirty-five seconds at 18 Ah per
                                    hour rate.

                                    Don



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                                  • Jay Grossman
                                    I m getting about a 6Ah reduction from the dash Ah meter per hour of charging in my 95 force with dual brusca chargers. Jay H Grossman theoldcars@aol.com
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jan 19, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      I'm getting about a 6Ah reduction from the dash Ah meter per hour of charging in my 95 force with dual brusca chargers.
                                      Jay H Grossman


                                      theoldcars@... wrote:
                                      Is the Amp hour gauge in the dash is going to be close to the same as the
                                      Amps being put in by the charger? Even with new batteries your going to have
                                      some loss?

                                      I am charging only with 240 volts. The batteries are the original Gel making
                                      them at least eight years old with close to 19,000 miles. Sounds like they
                                      must be causing a huge amount of resistance.

                                      I have placed a clamp meter at the charger it is putting in 15 to 16 Amps at
                                      the start of charging and after a while drops to 12 to 14 Amps. I have time
                                      it and never has been more than 6 Ah on the dash for the last year. I have
                                      only had this Solectria for a one and a half years and it had 14,500 to start
                                      with. I do not have any experience with new batteries.

                                      It would be interesting to know what others are getting in the first hour
                                      back on your Ah gauge on the dash with 240 and 120. Even just using a watch and
                                      giving a rough idea how long it takes to put in one Ah. You should be
                                      putting in one Ah in three minutes and thirty-five seconds at 18 Ah per hour rate.

                                      I was basing the value of a small generator on how fast my batteries were
                                      charging on 240. I am guessing if your charging at 120 with good batteries you
                                      should be in the range of 6 Ah back in the pack in an hour?

                                      That would make a huge difference. Being able to keep the weight of a
                                      generator to 45 pounds would be worth adding another charger like a PFC 30. Then
                                      you could charge at 120 and not risk damaging the Brusa.


                                      Don

                                      In a message dated 1/17/2006 2:06:23 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                                      sparrow262@... writes:

                                      Don:

                                      I think Ken is right. The charger should be lowering your AH guage by
                                      something closer to 18AH per hour not 6AHs when using a 240 volt outlet. In other
                                      words, after one hour of charging you should be gaining back about 12 to 18
                                      miles of extra range, it sounds like you are getting about 1/3 of that.

                                      Of course the rate does slow down substanially as the batteries get closer
                                      to full, maybe that is where the confusion is.

                                      Stephen Taylor



                                      theoldcars@... wrote:
                                      Hello Ken

                                      I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger.
                                      Charging at 240 volts for one hour I have notice the Brusa puts about 6 Ah
                                      back in the pack until it reaches the finishing charge.



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                                    • theoldcars@aol.com
                                      Hello Jay Is that with 240 volts? Batteries Gel? Age and miles? Don In a message dated 1/19/2006 9:32:35 AM Pacific Standard Time, jgrossm3@yahoo.com writes:
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jan 19, 2006
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hello Jay

                                        Is that with 240 volts? Batteries Gel? Age and miles?

                                        Don


                                        In a message dated 1/19/2006 9:32:35 AM Pacific Standard Time,
                                        jgrossm3@... writes:

                                        I'm getting about a 6Ah reduction from the dash Ah meter per hour of
                                        charging in my 95 force with dual brusca chargers.
                                        Jay H Grossman


                                        theoldcars@... wrote:
                                        Is the Amp hour gauge in the dash is going to be close to the same as the
                                        Amps being put in by the charger? Even with new batteries your going to have

                                        some loss?

                                        I am charging only with 240 volts. The batteries are the original Gel
                                        making
                                        them at least eight years old with close to 19,000 miles. Sounds like they
                                        must be causing a huge amount of resistance.

                                        I have placed a clamp meter at the charger it is putting in 15 to 16 Amps
                                        at
                                        the start of charging and after a while drops to 12 to 14 Amps. I have time

                                        it and never has been more than 6 Ah on the dash for the last year. I have
                                        only had this Solectria for a one and a half years and it had 14,500 to
                                        start
                                        with. I do not have any experience with new batteries.

                                        It would be interesting to know what others are getting in the first hour
                                        back on your Ah gauge on the dash with 240 and 120. Even just using a watch
                                        and
                                        giving a rough idea how long it takes to put in one Ah. You should be
                                        putting in one Ah in three minutes and thirty-five seconds at 18 Ah per
                                        hour rate.

                                        I was basing the value of a small generator on how fast my batteries were
                                        charging on 240. I am guessing if your charging at 120 with good batteries
                                        you
                                        should be in the range of 6 Ah back in the pack in an hour?

                                        That would make a huge difference. Being able to keep the weight of a
                                        generator to 45 pounds would be worth adding another charger like a PFC 30.
                                        Then
                                        you could charge at 120 and not risk damaging the Brusa.


                                        Don

                                        In a message dated 1/17/2006 2:06:23 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                                        sparrow262@... writes:

                                        Don:

                                        I think Ken is right. The charger should be lowering your AH guage by
                                        something closer to 18AH per hour not 6AHs when using a 240 volt outlet.
                                        In other
                                        words, after one hour of charging you should be gaining back about 12 to 18
                                        miles of extra range, it sounds like you are getting about 1/3 of that.

                                        Of course the rate does slow down substanially as the batteries get closer
                                        to full, maybe that is where the confusion is.

                                        Stephen Taylor



                                        theoldcars@... wrote:
                                        Hello Ken

                                        I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger.
                                        Charging at 240 volts for one hour I have notice the Brusa puts about 6 Ah
                                        back in the pack until it reaches the finishing charge.



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                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Stephen Taylor
                                        Don Did 6 minutes of charge on 120volts. AH started at 19.51 and ended at 18.65. That is a change of .86 or 8.6 for one hour. Subtracting 40% for my AH
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jan 19, 2006
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Don

                                          Did 6 minutes of charge on 120volts. AH started at 19.51 and ended at 18.65. That is a change of .86 or 8.6 for one hour. Subtracting 40% for my AH guage problem mentioned earlier that leaves 5.16 AH per hour. So it would appear at 120 volts it must be doing only about 1/3 (maybe even less) the charge rate as at 240 volts.

                                          Stephen Taylor

                                          theoldcars@... wrote:

                                          Hello Stephen

                                          Thanks checking and posting the information. So if it is 18 Ah from 240
                                          would it be 9 Ah at 120 in an hour?


                                          Don

                                          In a message dated 1/18/2006 1:50:26 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                                          sparrow262@... writes:


                                          OK I ran my lead acid Force this afternoon. During the first six minutes of
                                          charging my guage went from 14.05 to 11.07 or down 2.98 AHs. At that rate
                                          in one hour it would be down 29.8 AHs. As I said before it skips from .40
                                          to .19 everytime and similarly with the hundreds of an AH column. This is a
                                          40% error so subtracting 40% from 29.8 leaves 17.88 AHs. So 17.88 AH per hour
                                          is the actual reduction my AH guage should be seeing during full power
                                          charging. Full power charging I believe continues until the batteries reach 183.3
                                          volts at which point the charger begins it constant voltage phase so the
                                          amps begin to throttle back.

                                          Stephen Taylor

                                          theoldcars@... wrote:
                                          Even just using a watch and
                                          giving a rough idea how long it takes to put in one Ah. You should be
                                          putting in one Ah in three minutes and thirty-five seconds at 18 Ah per
                                          hour rate.

                                          Don



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                                        • Jim Coate
                                          Someone else recently posted that it goes as the square, so will at 120 volts will be doing only 1/4 of the rate at 240 volts. The value of 800 watts was
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jan 19, 2006
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Someone else recently posted that it goes as the square, so will at 120
                                            volts will be doing only 1/4 of the rate at 240 volts.

                                            The value of 800 watts was mentioned along the way...
                                            800 watts of charging power on 120 volts
                                            3300 watts of charging power on 240 volts
                                            and 800/3300 = 25%



                                            Stephen Taylor wrote:
                                            > So it would appear at 120 volts it must be doing only about 1/3
                                            > (maybe even less) the charge rate as at 240 volts.





                                            --
                                            Jim Coate
                                            1970's Elec-Trak's
                                            1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
                                            1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
                                            http://www.eeevee.com
                                          • Jay Grossman
                                            240 Volts at home, Dekka 8G27M batteries which are 8 months old (May 2005), with 5400 miles on this pack. My principal driving is 17 miles to the office
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jan 20, 2006
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              240 Volts at home, Dekka 8G27M batteries which are 8 months old (May 2005), with 5400 miles on this pack. My principal driving is 17 miles to the office where I have a 208v outlet to charge during the day and then 17 miles home where I have a 240v outlet.
                                              Jay H Grossman

                                              theoldcars@... wrote:
                                              Hello Jay

                                              Is that with 240 volts? Batteries Gel? Age and miles?

                                              Don


                                              In a message dated 1/19/2006 9:32:35 AM Pacific Standard Time,
                                              jgrossm3@... writes:

                                              I'm getting about a 6Ah reduction from the dash Ah meter per hour of
                                              charging in my 95 force with dual brusca chargers.
                                              Jay H Grossman


                                              theoldcars@... wrote:
                                              Is the Amp hour gauge in the dash is going to be close to the same as the
                                              Amps being put in by the charger? Even with new batteries your going to have

                                              some loss?

                                              I am charging only with 240 volts. The batteries are the original Gel
                                              making
                                              them at least eight years old with close to 19,000 miles. Sounds like they
                                              must be causing a huge amount of resistance.

                                              I have placed a clamp meter at the charger it is putting in 15 to 16 Amps
                                              at
                                              the start of charging and after a while drops to 12 to 14 Amps. I have time

                                              it and never has been more than 6 Ah on the dash for the last year. I have
                                              only had this Solectria for a one and a half years and it had 14,500 to
                                              start
                                              with. I do not have any experience with new batteries.

                                              It would be interesting to know what others are getting in the first hour
                                              back on your Ah gauge on the dash with 240 and 120. Even just using a watch
                                              and
                                              giving a rough idea how long it takes to put in one Ah. You should be
                                              putting in one Ah in three minutes and thirty-five seconds at 18 Ah per
                                              hour rate.

                                              I was basing the value of a small generator on how fast my batteries were
                                              charging on 240. I am guessing if your charging at 120 with good batteries
                                              you
                                              should be in the range of 6 Ah back in the pack in an hour?

                                              That would make a huge difference. Being able to keep the weight of a
                                              generator to 45 pounds would be worth adding another charger like a PFC 30.
                                              Then
                                              you could charge at 120 and not risk damaging the Brusa.


                                              Don

                                              In a message dated 1/17/2006 2:06:23 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                                              sparrow262@... writes:

                                              Don:

                                              I think Ken is right. The charger should be lowering your AH guage by
                                              something closer to 18AH per hour not 6AHs when using a 240 volt outlet.
                                              In other
                                              words, after one hour of charging you should be gaining back about 12 to 18
                                              miles of extra range, it sounds like you are getting about 1/3 of that.

                                              Of course the rate does slow down substanially as the batteries get closer
                                              to full, maybe that is where the confusion is.

                                              Stephen Taylor



                                              theoldcars@... wrote:
                                              Hello Ken

                                              I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger.
                                              Charging at 240 volts for one hour I have notice the Brusa puts about 6 Ah
                                              back in the pack until it reaches the finishing charge.



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