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Re: [solectria_ev] use of generator

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  • theoldcars@aol.com
    Yes the PFC 50 can deliver 10,000 watts if you can provide it the power. You would need a 12k generator as a prime power to do this. I have been reviewing the
    Message 1 of 29 , Dec 30, 2005
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      Yes the PFC 50 can deliver 10,000 watts if you can provide it the power.
      You would need a 12k generator as a prime power to do this. I have been
      reviewing the idea of adding a generator or a removable small ICE for sometime.

      I have a 3.5 kW Honda that I bought ten years ago to power as a back up
      power for a few home circuits. I bought that size because it made the least noise
      without spending 5000 dollars and hauling out a 6.5k 300 pound water cooled
      unit during an ice storm.

      For a pickup adding a generator is an easy option. However your only going
      to add a few miles to your range with a 3k generator. A 6k generator will
      double that but the weight and noise will also be more. The added range is not a
      great deal because you have to get back. So instead of being able to go 20
      miles one way you could go 23 or 26 with a generator running the whole time.
      This does not take into account charging while at destination. Charging at your
      destination with a 3k generator your only going to add a few miles for every
      hour. A 6k will double that but this still is not really very good.

      If you would like to go 45 miles one way then you have at least 3 or 6 hours
      charging at your destination to get back. So that would be running a 6k
      generator for at least 5 straight hours.

      Small generators are loud and burn a lot of fuel. It would really take away
      from the whole EV experience. Larger generators weigh and cost a lot more and
      just about all of them are going to make a lot of noise. Even if you could
      run a generator for half the time you were actually driving. It would still
      use more fuel than an ICE would use for the whole trip.

      I looked at Diesel generators that are more efficient and turning it into a
      biodiesel. Diesel generators weigh more and the best run at 1800 rpm and
      still make a lot of noise. An 1800 rpm diesel putting out 12.5 k is going to
      weigh around 500 pounds. A 100% biodiesel will put out less energy so it might
      have to be a blended fuel.

      A generator is not really a good option. Using a small removable motor that
      could assist in propulsion when needed would be more efficient. It could also
      be made to run with less noise. It would take a little engineering but it
      could be done. I am just hoping the better batteries that are out there now
      find a demand that kicks off their mass production.

      Don Blazer


      In a message dated 12/29/2005 7:03:00 PM Pacific Standard Time,
      tomhudson@... writes:

      One of the guys on my E-10 forum (http://portev.org/forum) has bolted a
      charger into his truck's bed and can charge while underway if he wants.
      The only issue I can think of right off the top of my head would be the
      possibility of putting too many amps into the pack if you're running the
      generator and doing regen braking simultaneously, but I'm not sure of
      allowable current limits in these circumstances. I thought of doing this
      some time back as a range extender in my E-10, but never did anything.

      -Tom

      d. Bouton Baldridge wrote:

      >Say, has anyone tried using a generator to charge while underway? I realize
      that there is a cutout circuitry for original equipment, but since I had to
      replace the charger that no longer functions. I just have to remenber to pull
      the plug before I leave. Is there some reason that the charger should not be
      on while the drive circuitry is engaged?
      > Just wondering, it sure would be a nice option given the limited and
      sometimes unreliable character of my flooded batteries.
      >
      > Bouty
      >
      >
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    • rod864
      ... If low emission driving is important to you (and for most of us it is, or we wouldn t be driving electric), you re better off to buy a small ICE car for
      Message 2 of 29 , Jan 11, 2006
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        --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "d. Bouton Baldridge"
        <cfrkeepr@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Say, has anyone tried using a generator to charge while underway?

        If low emission driving is important to you (and for most of us it is,
        or we wouldn't be driving electric), you're better off to buy a small
        ICE car for the trips the Force won't do. You'll find it almost
        impossible to make a series hybrid anywhere close to as clean or as
        efficient as an ordinary ICE-powered small car, let alone an extra
        clean and efficient one such as a Prius or Insight.

        In particular, emissions requirements for (usually) stationary gensets
        are very loose. Most of them are gross polluters. Even the high
        quality ones are appreciably dirtier than an ICE vehicle. You'd
        probably be cleaner driving a Hummer than using one of those to keep
        your Force running.
      • umarc
        ... Interesting. In railroading, where diesel-electric propulsion has long been the norm, someone has recently developed a switching locomotive called the
        Message 3 of 29 , Jan 12, 2006
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          On Thu, 12 Jan 2006, rod864 wrote:

          > If low emission driving is important to you (and for most of us it is,
          > or we wouldn't be driving electric), you're better off to buy a small
          > ICE car for the trips the Force won't do. You'll find it almost
          > impossible to make a series hybrid anywhere close to as clean or as
          > efficient as an ordinary ICE-powered small car, let alone an extra
          > clean and efficient one such as a Prius or Insight.

          Interesting.

          In railroading, where diesel-electric propulsion has long been the norm,
          someone has recently developed a switching locomotive called the Green
          Goat: battery-powered, but with a small diesel generator on board that
          kicks in from time to time to keep the batteries charged. It's supposed to
          pollute much less than conventional diesel-electric locomotives which,
          among other things, are usually left idling for hours or even days
          between runs.


          Rob Landry
          umarc@...
        • umarc
          One option you might consider is attaching a trailer to your Force with additional batteries. I read somewhere that a Force so equipped once made it from New
          Message 4 of 29 , Jan 12, 2006
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            One option you might consider is attaching a trailer to your Force with
            additional batteries. I read somewhere that a Force so equipped once made
            it from New York to Boston on a single charge.


            Rob Landry
            umarc@...
          • d. Bouton Baldridge
            That all may well be true, but until you get stuck with a dead battery (batteries are the weak link) , having a backup is invaluable. Absolutely emissions are
            Message 5 of 29 , Jan 12, 2006
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              That all may well be true, but until you get stuck with a dead battery (batteries are the weak link) , having a backup is invaluable. Absolutely emissions are the main reason, but having a practical means of transportation is the only way the general public is going to consider the electric vehicle. The intent is not to use the generator fulltime, only for those instances of unexpected failure, it has happened to me several times. I am one of the few Force owners with not only a trailer hitch, but solar panels (OEM) too and a tow bar which I believe is a necessity. For those of you on the west coast where EVs are more common more power to you with charge stations galore. On the east coast its every man for himself. Face it the EV is an experiment, that for now is failing. It is our persistence that is keepping it alive. Sure we don't emit DIRECTLY, but the coal burned to produce the electricity does. The true value of driving electric is it's effieciency, which is why the hybrids
              are becoming so popular they give the give the "in town" efficiency with the ICE range. Our Solectria's are now historical museum displays waiting for a place. Maybe just maybe with a little inovation from a few enterprising individuals we can keep them going and maybe even make them more practical. It a sure thing that the Big Three are not going back to EVs.

              Bouton Baldridge


              rod864 <rod864@...> wrote:
              --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "d. Bouton Baldridge"
              <cfrkeepr@y...> wrote:
              >
              > Say, has anyone tried using a generator to charge while underway?

              If low emission driving is important to you (and for most of us it is,
              or we wouldn't be driving electric), you're better off to buy a small
              ICE car for the trips the Force won't do. You'll find it almost
              impossible to make a series hybrid anywhere close to as clean or as
              efficient as an ordinary ICE-powered small car, let alone an extra
              clean and efficient one such as a Prius or Insight.

              In particular, emissions requirements for (usually) stationary gensets
              are very loose. Most of them are gross polluters. Even the high
              quality ones are appreciably dirtier than an ICE vehicle. You'd
              probably be cleaner driving a Hummer than using one of those to keep
              your Force running.





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            • theoldcars@aol.com
              Not everywhere on the West coast has a lot of charging locations. In Oregon with almost 100,000 square miles and we have one charging location in the state
              Message 6 of 29 , Jan 12, 2006
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                Not everywhere on the West coast has a lot of charging locations.

                In Oregon with almost 100,000 square miles and we have one charging location
                in the state that is open 24/7. Yet In the last two years I have replaced
                almost all my driving of an ICE with electric.

                It is not fair to compare EV use and coal. There is plenty of excess power
                at night when most our charging is done.

                I would not say the EV experiment has failed. Really it was restarted just a
                little to soon. Better batteries will be made and produced in numbers that
                are affordable and it will change everything. Maybe in one year or ten years it
                is just a matter of time but it will happen.

                It would be great to figure out a way to add range but a generator from the
                numbers I have run really do not help much. I have put a lot of hours looking
                at generators and their output. My conclusion is a better range extender
                would use the existing ability of the Solectria to generate its own power.

                You would have less weight & conversion of power it is more efficient. A 13
                horsepower Honda motor weighs under 100 pounds. This is complete fuel tank
                and all for less than 600 dollars.

                Don





                In a message dated 1/12/2006 6:59:20 AM Pacific Standard Time,
                cfrkeepr@... writes:

                That all may well be true, but until you get stuck with a dead battery
                (batteries are the weak link) , having a backup is invaluable. Absolutely
                emissions are the main reason, but having a practical means of transportation is the
                only way the general public is going to consider the electric vehicle. The
                intent is not to use the generator fulltime, only for those instances of
                unexpected failure, it has happened to me several times. I am one of the few Force
                owners with not only a trailer hitch, but solar panels (OEM) too and a tow
                bar which I believe is a necessity. For those of you on the west coast where
                EVs are more common more power to you with charge stations galore. On the east
                coast its every man for himself. Face it the EV is an experiment, that for
                now is failing. It is our persistence that is keepping it alive. Sure we don't
                emit DIRECTLY, but the coal burned to produce the electricity does. The true
                value of driving electric is it's effieciency, which is why the hybrids
                are becoming so popular they give the give the "in town" efficiency with the
                ICE range. Our Solectria's are now historical museum displays waiting for a
                place. Maybe just maybe with a little inovation from a few enterprising
                individuals we can keep them going and maybe even make them more practical. It a
                sure thing that the Big Three are not going back to EVs.

                Bouton Baldridge


                rod864 <rod864@...> wrote:
                --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "d. Bouton Baldridge"
                <cfrkeepr@y...> wrote:
                >
                > Say, has anyone tried using a generator to charge while underway?

                If low emission driving is important to you (and for most of us it is,
                or we wouldn't be driving electric), you're better off to buy a small
                ICE car for the trips the Force won't do. You'll find it almost
                impossible to make a series hybrid anywhere close to as clean or as
                efficient as an ordinary ICE-powered small car, let alone an extra
                clean and efficient one such as a Prius or Insight.

                In particular, emissions requirements for (usually) stationary gensets
                are very loose. Most of them are gross polluters. Even the high
                quality ones are appreciably dirtier than an ICE vehicle. You'd
                probably be cleaner driving a Hummer than using one of those to keep
                your Force running.





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jay Grossman
                Consider Plug in Hybrids as an alternative to all electric vehicles. First 20 or 30 miles on all electric and milage above 20 would run on ICE. Most trips
                Message 7 of 29 , Jan 12, 2006
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                  Consider Plug in Hybrids as an alternative to all electric vehicles. First 20 or 30 miles on all electric and milage above 20 would run on ICE. Most trips daily are less than 20 miles. Plug in at night to recharge. Calcars in California is reengineering a Prius as a Plug in hybrid.

                  RE:Comments concerning coal polution to create electricity - what about the polution generated in the extraction and production of gasoline. Wind generation of electricity is also a clean alternative to coal production.
                  Jay H Grossman

                  theoldcars@... wrote:

                  Not everywhere on the West coast has a lot of charging locations.

                  In Oregon with almost 100,000 square miles and we have one charging location
                  in the state that is open 24/7. Yet In the last two years I have replaced
                  almost all my driving of an ICE with electric.

                  It is not fair to compare EV use and coal. There is plenty of excess power
                  at night when most our charging is done.

                  I would not say the EV experiment has failed. Really it was restarted just a
                  little to soon. Better batteries will be made and produced in numbers that
                  are affordable and it will change everything. Maybe in one year or ten years it
                  is just a matter of time but it will happen.

                  It would be great to figure out a way to add range but a generator from the
                  numbers I have run really do not help much. I have put a lot of hours looking
                  at generators and their output. My conclusion is a better range extender
                  would use the existing ability of the Solectria to generate its own power.

                  You would have less weight & conversion of power it is more efficient. A 13
                  horsepower Honda motor weighs under 100 pounds. This is complete fuel tank
                  and all for less than 600 dollars.

                  Don





                  In a message dated 1/12/2006 6:59:20 AM Pacific Standard Time,
                  cfrkeepr@... writes:

                  That all may well be true, but until you get stuck with a dead battery
                  (batteries are the weak link) , having a backup is invaluable. Absolutely
                  emissions are the main reason, but having a practical means of transportation is the
                  only way the general public is going to consider the electric vehicle. The
                  intent is not to use the generator fulltime, only for those instances of
                  unexpected failure, it has happened to me several times. I am one of the few Force
                  owners with not only a trailer hitch, but solar panels (OEM) too and a tow
                  bar which I believe is a necessity. For those of you on the west coast where
                  EVs are more common more power to you with charge stations galore. On the east
                  coast its every man for himself. Face it the EV is an experiment, that for
                  now is failing. It is our persistence that is keepping it alive. Sure we don't
                  emit DIRECTLY, but the coal burned to produce the electricity does. The true
                  value of driving electric is it's effieciency, which is why the hybrids
                  are becoming so popular they give the give the "in town" efficiency with the
                  ICE range. Our Solectria's are now historical museum displays waiting for a
                  place. Maybe just maybe with a little inovation from a few enterprising
                  individuals we can keep them going and maybe even make them more practical. It a
                  sure thing that the Big Three are not going back to EVs.

                  Bouton Baldridge


                  rod864 <rod864@...> wrote:
                  --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "d. Bouton Baldridge"
                  <cfrkeepr@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Say, has anyone tried using a generator to charge while underway?

                  If low emission driving is important to you (and for most of us it is,
                  or we wouldn't be driving electric), you're better off to buy a small
                  ICE car for the trips the Force won't do. You'll find it almost
                  impossible to make a series hybrid anywhere close to as clean or as
                  efficient as an ordinary ICE-powered small car, let alone an extra
                  clean and efficient one such as a Prius or Insight.

                  In particular, emissions requirements for (usually) stationary gensets
                  are very loose. Most of them are gross polluters. Even the high
                  quality ones are appreciably dirtier than an ICE vehicle. You'd
                  probably be cleaner driving a Hummer than using one of those to keep
                  your Force running.





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                • theoldcars@aol.com
                  Calcars stopped at Portland and showed the Prius on their way to Seattle. They are using small sealed lead acid batteries that are used in an electric bike.
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jan 12, 2006
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                    Calcars stopped at Portland and showed the Prius on their way to Seattle.
                    They are using small sealed lead acid batteries that are used in an electric
                    bike. If I remember correct they were about 18 Ah. A little bit larger
                    batteries would extend the range. It is exactly what our country needs. Then everyone
                    would want to be able to plug in and run on electric as much as possible.

                    So many new hybrids and EV cars are being developed in Japan the United
                    States car manufactures will be forced to respond with similar vehicles.

                    Wind is a vast untapped energy source. The following is out of the Cape Cod
                    times.


                    Earlier this month the Department of Energy along with the Massachusetts
                    Technology Collaborative and General Electric, which would build the Cape Wind
                    turbines released a proposed framework for the development of offshore wind
                    resources.
                    The report suggested there are up to 900,000 megawatts of potential energy or
                    the rough equivalent of the nation's electrical capacity that can be
                    harnessed off America's coast.
                    With advances in technology and clear regulatory guidelines the industry
                    could tap winds as far off coast as 50 miles.

                    Don

                    In a message dated 1/12/2006 8:31:23 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                    jgrossm3@... writes:

                    Consider Plug in Hybrids as an alternative to all electric vehicles. First
                    20 or 30 miles on all electric and milage above 20 would run on ICE. Most
                    trips daily are less than 20 miles. Plug in at night to recharge. Calcars in
                    California is reengineering a Prius as a Plug in hybrid.

                    RE:Comments concerning coal polution to create electricity - what about the
                    polution generated in the extraction and production of gasoline. Wind
                    generation of electricity is also a clean alternative to coal production.
                    Jay H Grossman

                    theoldcars@... wrote:

                    Not everywhere on the West coast has a lot of charging locations.

                    In Oregon with almost 100,000 square miles and we have one charging
                    location
                    in the state that is open 24/7. Yet In the last two years I have replaced
                    almost all my driving of an ICE with electric.

                    It is not fair to compare EV use and coal. There is plenty of excess power
                    at night when most our charging is done.

                    I would not say the EV experiment has failed. Really it was restarted just
                    a
                    little to soon. Better batteries will be made and produced in numbers that
                    are affordable and it will change everything. Maybe in one year or ten
                    years it
                    is just a matter of time but it will happen.

                    It would be great to figure out a way to add range but a generator from the
                    numbers I have run really do not help much. I have put a lot of hours
                    looking
                    at generators and their output. My conclusion is a better range extender
                    would use the existing ability of the Solectria to generate its own power.

                    You would have less weight & conversion of power it is more efficient. A 13
                    horsepower Honda motor weighs under 100 pounds. This is complete fuel tank
                    and all for less than 600 dollars.

                    Don





                    In a message dated 1/12/2006 6:59:20 AM Pacific Standard Time,
                    cfrkeepr@... writes:

                    That all may well be true, but until you get stuck with a dead battery
                    (batteries are the weak link) , having a backup is invaluable. Absolutely
                    emissions are the main reason, but having a practical means of
                    transportation is the
                    only way the general public is going to consider the electric vehicle. The
                    intent is not to use the generator fulltime, only for those instances of
                    unexpected failure, it has happened to me several times. I am one of the few
                    Force
                    owners with not only a trailer hitch, but solar panels (OEM) too and a tow
                    bar which I believe is a necessity. For those of you on the west coast
                    where
                    EVs are more common more power to you with charge stations galore. On the
                    east
                    coast its every man for himself. Face it the EV is an experiment, that for
                    now is failing. It is our persistence that is keepping it alive. Sure we
                    don't
                    emit DIRECTLY, but the coal burned to produce the electricity does. The
                    true
                    value of driving electric is it's effieciency, which is why the hybrids
                    are becoming so popular they give the give the "in town" efficiency with
                    the
                    ICE range. Our Solectria's are now historical museum displays waiting for a
                    place. Maybe just maybe with a little inovation from a few enterprising
                    individuals we can keep them going and maybe even make them more practical.
                    It a
                    sure thing that the Big Three are not going back to EVs.

                    Bouton Baldridge


                    rod864 <rod864@...> wrote:
                    --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "d. Bouton Baldridge"
                    <cfrkeepr@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Say, has anyone tried using a generator to charge while underway?

                    If low emission driving is important to you (and for most of us it is,
                    or we wouldn't be driving electric), you're better off to buy a small
                    ICE car for the trips the Force won't do. You'll find it almost
                    impossible to make a series hybrid anywhere close to as clean or as
                    efficient as an ordinary ICE-powered small car, let alone an extra
                    clean and efficient one such as a Prius or Insight.

                    In particular, emissions requirements for (usually) stationary gensets
                    are very loose. Most of them are gross polluters. Even the high
                    quality ones are appreciably dirtier than an ICE vehicle. You'd
                    probably be cleaner driving a Hummer than using one of those to keep
                    your Force running.





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                  • rod864
                    ... I ve never quite understood this concern. AC receptacles are just about the most ubiquitous fueling devices in the US! OK, most of them are 120 volt and
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jan 13, 2006
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                      --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "d. Bouton Baldridge"
                      <cfrkeepr@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      > For those of you on the west coast where EVs are more common
                      > more power to you with charge stations galore. On the east
                      > coast its every man for himself.

                      I've never quite understood this concern. AC receptacles are just
                      about the most ubiquitous fueling devices in the US! OK, most of them
                      are 120 volt and limited to perhaps 12 amps, but a half-hour or 45
                      minutes of that can often buy you enough range to get home.

                      Stop by the convenience stores and gas stations on your regular
                      routes. Have a brief chat with the manager at each. You'll find that
                      some (not all) will be happy to take a couple of bucks from you in
                      return for a quarter's worth of power. Ask them to post notes by
                      their cash registers with your name and plate number, and a sentence
                      stating that you're authorized to buy a charge.

                      > Face it the EV is an experiment, that for now is failing.

                      I suppose that depends on your perspective. I don't agree.

                      > Sure we don't emit DIRECTLY, but the coal burned to produce
                      > the electricity does.

                      I'll admit that such ultra-clean ICEs as the Toyota Prius give EVs a
                      run for their money. But based on conversions, most of the indirect
                      emissions from EV charging are markedly lower than the equivalent
                      direct emissions from the original vehicle. The reason is that the EV
                      is much more efficient than an equivalent ICEV, and power plants have
                      gotten cleaner in recent years.

                      Besides, EVs can be fueled with 100% renewable fuel, which you can
                      make yourself in your own back yard with PV panels. You can't do that
                      with a Prius (at least not yet).

                      Somebody is going to pop up here and point out (with some
                      justification) that some diesels can also be fueled with fuel that one
                      can homebrew in his own back yard. I would respond that (1) the
                      quantity of recyclable vegetable oil available is limited, and isn't
                      going to supply very many vehicles; (2) the emissions are cleaner than
                      petrol diesel, but hardly as clean as EVs'; and (3) as I understand
                      it, there are byproducts from the process which may pose a disposal
                      problem (amenable to correction if I'm misinformed).

                      Commercial biodiesel is a very big question mark in my book. There is
                      a fair bit of controversy over its energy balance because soybean
                      farming in the US is so petroleum-intensive. When you ask the
                      question, generally the answer you get depends on who's doing the
                      talking and what his agenda is.

                      Besides, I'm rather uncomfortable with burning good soybeans in my car
                      when there are so many starving people in the world. Show me that you
                      can extract the oil from soybeans and still use them for high quality
                      protein, and then we'll talk. (Maybe it can be done; I don't know.)

                      At this point I don't think anything else can match the environmental
                      sustainability of a PV-fueled EV. I'm willing to listen to arguments,
                      though.

                      > Our Solectria's are now historical museum displays waiting for
                      > a place.

                      Great! I'll start a museum and you can donate yours to it. <grin>
                    • d. Bouton Baldridge
                      All of your points are well taken and I agree. My comments were not meant to provoke, I was responding to statements about my interest in exploring the use of
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jan 14, 2006
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                        All of your points are well taken and I agree. My comments were not meant to provoke, I was responding to statements about my interest in exploring the use of a generator to extend and in some cases diffuse an unfortunate but all too real stranding. What was said in the reply missed the point and tried to convince the readers that such behavior was undignified of a true EVer. I guess I reacted rather exaggeratedly when I was trying to justify my interest. In a perfect world we would not even need automobiles, we'd just beam ourselves to where ever. In the mean time those of us pioneers must work at keeping the concept of efficient and practical use of the EV in the minds of those not yet enlightened. It does no good for the cause when we must tell our neighbors that we had to be towed because our battery failed. The west coast is blessed with people of vision and we elsewhere are grateful. The failure I speak of is only that our manufacturers have dropped all EV programs so those of
                        us with the few remaining Evs are bearing the burden of making sure the idea does not dissappear. This is even more accute in parts of the country where it did not manifest itself at all in the first place. I appreciate all of the efforts of the people who make up this forum and for those who steadfastly lobbyed to get these cars built. There is no doubt in my mind that the next producton EV in the US will be coming from India and China. Until that happens for better or worse, we who have made the commitment to keep these EVs going are facing increased cost of service and parts which is truely unfortunate because this will also not help our case. I guess my piont is that we need to remain unified and continue to support each other.
                        Thanks for being there.

                        Bouty

                        rod864 <rod864@...> wrote:
                        --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "d. Bouton Baldridge"
                        <cfrkeepr@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > For those of you on the west coast where EVs are more common
                        > more power to you with charge stations galore. On the east
                        > coast its every man for himself.

                        I've never quite understood this concern. AC receptacles are just
                        about the most ubiquitous fueling devices in the US! OK, most of them
                        are 120 volt and limited to perhaps 12 amps, but a half-hour or 45
                        minutes of that can often buy you enough range to get home.

                        Stop by the convenience stores and gas stations on your regular
                        routes. Have a brief chat with the manager at each. You'll find that
                        some (not all) will be happy to take a couple of bucks from you in
                        return for a quarter's worth of power. Ask them to post notes by
                        their cash registers with your name and plate number, and a sentence
                        stating that you're authorized to buy a charge.

                        > Face it the EV is an experiment, that for now is failing.

                        I suppose that depends on your perspective. I don't agree.

                        > Sure we don't emit DIRECTLY, but the coal burned to produce
                        > the electricity does.

                        I'll admit that such ultra-clean ICEs as the Toyota Prius give EVs a
                        run for their money. But based on conversions, most of the indirect
                        emissions from EV charging are markedly lower than the equivalent
                        direct emissions from the original vehicle. The reason is that the EV
                        is much more efficient than an equivalent ICEV, and power plants have
                        gotten cleaner in recent years.

                        Besides, EVs can be fueled with 100% renewable fuel, which you can
                        make yourself in your own back yard with PV panels. You can't do that
                        with a Prius (at least not yet).

                        Somebody is going to pop up here and point out (with some
                        justification) that some diesels can also be fueled with fuel that one
                        can homebrew in his own back yard. I would respond that (1) the
                        quantity of recyclable vegetable oil available is limited, and isn't
                        going to supply very many vehicles; (2) the emissions are cleaner than
                        petrol diesel, but hardly as clean as EVs'; and (3) as I understand
                        it, there are byproducts from the process which may pose a disposal
                        problem (amenable to correction if I'm misinformed).

                        Commercial biodiesel is a very big question mark in my book. There is
                        a fair bit of controversy over its energy balance because soybean
                        farming in the US is so petroleum-intensive. When you ask the
                        question, generally the answer you get depends on who's doing the
                        talking and what his agenda is.

                        Besides, I'm rather uncomfortable with burning good soybeans in my car
                        when there are so many starving people in the world. Show me that you
                        can extract the oil from soybeans and still use them for high quality
                        protein, and then we'll talk. (Maybe it can be done; I don't know.)

                        At this point I don't think anything else can match the environmental
                        sustainability of a PV-fueled EV. I'm willing to listen to arguments,
                        though.

                        > Our Solectria's are now historical museum displays waiting for
                        > a place.

                        Great! I'll start a museum and you can donate yours to it. <grin>






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                      • theoldcars@aol.com
                        I think all of us using lead acid batteries at one time or another wish we had something for an emergency. The Brusa charger puts in about 6 Ah per hour back
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jan 14, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I think all of us using lead acid batteries at one time or another wish we
                          had something for an emergency.

                          The Brusa charger puts in about 6 Ah per hour back in the pack. This is at
                          3.3 kW which would take at least a 3.5 K generator. It would take a 8
                          horsepower generator and I have found they weigh from 120 to 200 pounds. You really
                          have to look at the generators ability to handle a constant output or prime
                          power.

                          Are you driving a Force? Adding 150 plus pounds is going to slightly reduce
                          your range and lower the performance a little also. Plus I don't know of a
                          generator that would fit in the trunk. It would not be an easy task putting one
                          in the back seat if you even could get it in the opening.

                          The other option of pulling a trailer. I would consider a small trailer with
                          batteries before trying to charge while driving. Pulling a trailer is not h
                          ard but it is not fun either. It will also make finding a parking spot
                          difficult. A trailer is going to reduce your range and performance.

                          A smaller 120 volt generator would get you back home but depending on how
                          far you have to go it could take a very long time. A Honda EU 2000i would be a
                          nice little 120 volt unit at 46.3 pounds. It will handle 1.6 prime and is 56
                          db at 7 meters. Using 120 volts for charging should be done very sparingly. I
                          would not recommend charging at 120 except in an absolute emergency. You
                          could buy two sets of batteries and still be money ahead if you burn out the
                          charger. It would be less expensive to buy another set of batteries.

                          I am not sure 1.6 kW would be enough for the Brusa charging at 120 volts.
                          Anyone know what the Brusa charger pulls at 120 volts?

                          Don






                          In a message dated 1/14/2006 12:03:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                          cfrkeepr@... writes:

                          All of your points are well taken and I agree. My comments were not meant to
                          provoke, I was responding to statements about my interest in exploring the
                          use of a generator to extend and in some cases diffuse an unfortunate but all
                          too real stranding. What was said in the reply missed the point and tried to
                          convince the readers that such behavior was undignified of a true EVer. I
                          guess I reacted rather exaggeratedly when I was trying to justify my interest.
                          In a perfect world we would not even need automobiles, we'd just beam
                          ourselves to where ever. In the mean time those of us pioneers must work at keeping
                          the concept of efficient and practical use of the EV in the minds of those not
                          yet enlightened. It does no good for the cause when we must tell our
                          neighbors that we had to be towed because our battery failed. The west coast is
                          blessed with people of vision and we elsewhere are grateful. The failure I speak
                          of is only that our manufacturers have dropped all EV programs so those of
                          us with the few remaining Evs are bearing the burden of making sure the idea
                          does not dissappear. This is even more accute in parts of the country where
                          it did not manifest itself at all in the first place. I appreciate all of the
                          efforts of the people who make up this forum and for those who steadfastly
                          lobbyed to get these cars built. There is no doubt in my mind that the next
                          producton EV in the US will be coming from India and China. Until that happens
                          for better or worse, we who have made the commitment to keep these EVs going
                          are facing increased cost of service and parts which is truely unfortunate
                          because this will also not help our case. I guess my piont is that we need to
                          remain unified and continue to support each other.
                          Thanks for being there.

                          Bouty

                          rod864 <rod864@...> wrote:
                          --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "d. Bouton Baldridge"
                          <cfrkeepr@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          > For those of you on the west coast where EVs are more common
                          > more power to you with charge stations galore. On the east
                          > coast its every man for himself.

                          I've never quite understood this concern. AC receptacles are just
                          about the most ubiquitous fueling devices in the US! OK, most of them
                          are 120 volt and limited to perhaps 12 amps, but a half-hour or 45
                          minutes of that can often buy you enough range to get home.

                          Stop by the convenience stores and gas stations on your regular
                          routes. Have a brief chat with the manager at each. You'll find that
                          some (not all) will be happy to take a couple of bucks from you in
                          return for a quarter's worth of power. Ask them to post notes by
                          their cash registers with your name and plate number, and a sentence
                          stating that you're authorized to buy a charge.

                          > Face it the EV is an experiment, that for now is failing.

                          I suppose that depends on your perspective. I don't agree.

                          > Sure we don't emit DIRECTLY, but the coal burned to produce
                          > the electricity does.

                          I'll admit that such ultra-clean ICEs as the Toyota Prius give EVs a
                          run for their money. But based on conversions, most of the indirect
                          emissions from EV charging are markedly lower than the equivalent
                          direct emissions from the original vehicle. The reason is that the EV
                          is much more efficient than an equivalent ICEV, and power plants have
                          gotten cleaner in recent years.

                          Besides, EVs can be fueled with 100% renewable fuel, which you can
                          make yourself in your own back yard with PV panels. You can't do that
                          with a Prius (at least not yet).

                          Somebody is going to pop up here and point out (with some
                          justification) that some diesels can also be fueled with fuel that one
                          can homebrew in his own back yard. I would respond that (1) the
                          quantity of recyclable vegetable oil available is limited, and isn't
                          going to supply very many vehicles; (2) the emissions are cleaner than
                          petrol diesel, but hardly as clean as EVs'; and (3) as I understand
                          it, there are byproducts from the process which may pose a disposal
                          problem (amenable to correction if I'm misinformed).

                          Commercial biodiesel is a very big question mark in my book. There is
                          a fair bit of controversy over its energy balance because soybean
                          farming in the US is so petroleum-intensive. When you ask the
                          question, generally the answer you get depends on who's doing the
                          talking and what his agenda is.

                          Besides, I'm rather uncomfortable with burning good soybeans in my car
                          when there are so many starving people in the world. Show me that you
                          can extract the oil from soybeans and still use them for high quality
                          protein, and then we'll talk. (Maybe it can be done; I don't know.)

                          At this point I don't think anything else can match the environmental
                          sustainability of a PV-fueled EV. I'm willing to listen to arguments,
                          though.

                          > Our Solectria's are now historical museum displays waiting for
                          > a place.

                          Great! I'll start a museum and you can donate yours to it. <grin>






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                        • ldr214
                          Don, You sound pretty familiar with the little Honda 200i generator. I don t know if you have one. I have transported mine in the trunk of the Force, (97 with
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jan 14, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Don,
                            You sound pretty familiar with the little Honda 200i generator. I
                            don't know if you have one. I have transported mine in the trunk of
                            the Force, (97 with U27 gel configuration.) To close the trunk you
                            have to make sure the generator handle is lined up so the thicker
                            support part of the trunk lid misses it upon closing. I never tried
                            charging the car with it. I was taking the generator in for service
                            and wanted to drive cheap.

                            Short range on the Pba batteries is a fact of life and one that has
                            some positive aspects. Cab fare and towing should both be reasonable.

                            Mike
                            PS
                            You can always get out and push it for a few AH in regen if you have
                            some really strong friends.


                            --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, theoldcars@a... wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > I think all of us using lead acid batteries at one time or another
                            wish we
                            > had something for an emergency.
                            >
                            > The Brusa charger puts in about 6 Ah per hour back in the pack. This
                            is at
                            > 3.3 kW which would take at least a 3.5 K generator. It would take a 8
                            > horsepower generator and I have found they weigh from 120 to 200
                            pounds. You really
                            > have to look at the generators ability to handle a constant output
                            or prime
                            > power.
                            >
                            > Are you driving a Force? Adding 150 plus pounds is going to slightly
                            reduce
                            > your range and lower the performance a little also. Plus I don't
                            know of a
                            > generator that would fit in the trunk. It would not be an easy task
                            putting one
                            > in the back seat if you even could get it in the opening.
                            >
                            > The other option of pulling a trailer. I would consider a small
                            trailer with
                            > batteries before trying to charge while driving. Pulling a trailer
                            is not h
                            > ard but it is not fun either. It will also make finding a parking spot
                            > difficult. A trailer is going to reduce your range and performance.
                            >
                            > A smaller 120 volt generator would get you back home but depending
                            on how
                            > far you have to go it could take a very long time. A Honda EU 2000i
                            would be a
                            > nice little 120 volt unit at 46.3 pounds. It will handle 1.6 prime
                            and is 56
                            > db at 7 meters. Using 120 volts for charging should be done very
                            sparingly. I
                            > would not recommend charging at 120 except in an absolute
                            emergency. You
                            > could buy two sets of batteries and still be money ahead if you
                            burn out the
                            > charger. It would be less expensive to buy another set of batteries.
                            >
                            > I am not sure 1.6 kW would be enough for the Brusa charging at 120
                            volts.
                            > Anyone know what the Brusa charger pulls at 120 volts?
                            >
                            > Don
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > In a message dated 1/14/2006 12:03:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                            > cfrkeepr@y... writes:
                            >
                            > All of your points are well taken and I agree. My comments were not
                            meant to
                            > provoke, I was responding to statements about my interest in
                            exploring the
                            > use of a generator to extend and in some cases diffuse an
                            unfortunate but all
                            > too real stranding. What was said in the reply missed the point and
                            tried to
                            > convince the readers that such behavior was undignified of a true
                            EVer. I
                            > guess I reacted rather exaggeratedly when I was trying to justify
                            my interest.
                            > In a perfect world we would not even need automobiles, we'd just beam
                            > ourselves to where ever. In the mean time those of us pioneers must
                            work at keeping
                            > the concept of efficient and practical use of the EV in the minds
                            of those not
                            > yet enlightened. It does no good for the cause when we must tell our
                            > neighbors that we had to be towed because our battery failed. The
                            west coast is
                            > blessed with people of vision and we elsewhere are grateful. The
                            failure I speak
                            > of is only that our manufacturers have dropped all EV programs so
                            those of
                            > us with the few remaining Evs are bearing the burden of making sure
                            the idea
                            > does not dissappear. This is even more accute in parts of the
                            country where
                            > it did not manifest itself at all in the first place. I appreciate
                            all of the
                            > efforts of the people who make up this forum and for those who
                            steadfastly
                            > lobbyed to get these cars built. There is no doubt in my mind that
                            the next
                            > producton EV in the US will be coming from India and China. Until
                            that happens
                            > for better or worse, we who have made the commitment to keep these
                            EVs going
                            > are facing increased cost of service and parts which is truely
                            unfortunate
                            > because this will also not help our case. I guess my piont is that
                            we need to
                            > remain unified and continue to support each other.
                            > Thanks for being there.
                            >
                            > Bouty
                            >
                            > rod864 <rod864@y...> wrote:
                            > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "d. Bouton Baldridge"
                            > <cfrkeepr@y...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > For those of you on the west coast where EVs are more common
                            > > more power to you with charge stations galore. On the east
                            > > coast its every man for himself.
                            >
                            > I've never quite understood this concern. AC receptacles are just
                            > about the most ubiquitous fueling devices in the US! OK, most of them
                            > are 120 volt and limited to perhaps 12 amps, but a half-hour or 45
                            > minutes of that can often buy you enough range to get home.
                            >
                            > Stop by the convenience stores and gas stations on your regular
                            > routes. Have a brief chat with the manager at each. You'll find that
                            > some (not all) will be happy to take a couple of bucks from you in
                            > return for a quarter's worth of power. Ask them to post notes by
                            > their cash registers with your name and plate number, and a sentence
                            > stating that you're authorized to buy a charge.
                            >
                            > > Face it the EV is an experiment, that for now is failing.
                            >
                            > I suppose that depends on your perspective. I don't agree.
                            >
                            > > Sure we don't emit DIRECTLY, but the coal burned to produce
                            > > the electricity does.
                            >
                            > I'll admit that such ultra-clean ICEs as the Toyota Prius give EVs a
                            > run for their money. But based on conversions, most of the indirect
                            > emissions from EV charging are markedly lower than the equivalent
                            > direct emissions from the original vehicle. The reason is that the EV
                            > is much more efficient than an equivalent ICEV, and power plants have
                            > gotten cleaner in recent years.
                            >
                            > Besides, EVs can be fueled with 100% renewable fuel, which you can
                            > make yourself in your own back yard with PV panels. You can't do that
                            > with a Prius (at least not yet).
                            >
                            > Somebody is going to pop up here and point out (with some
                            > justification) that some diesels can also be fueled with fuel that one
                            > can homebrew in his own back yard. I would respond that (1) the
                            > quantity of recyclable vegetable oil available is limited, and isn't
                            > going to supply very many vehicles; (2) the emissions are cleaner than
                            > petrol diesel, but hardly as clean as EVs'; and (3) as I understand
                            > it, there are byproducts from the process which may pose a disposal
                            > problem (amenable to correction if I'm misinformed).
                            >
                            > Commercial biodiesel is a very big question mark in my book. There is
                            > a fair bit of controversy over its energy balance because soybean
                            > farming in the US is so petroleum-intensive. When you ask the
                            > question, generally the answer you get depends on who's doing the
                            > talking and what his agenda is.
                            >
                            > Besides, I'm rather uncomfortable with burning good soybeans in my car
                            > when there are so many starving people in the world. Show me that you
                            > can extract the oil from soybeans and still use them for high quality
                            > protein, and then we'll talk. (Maybe it can be done; I don't know.)
                            >
                            > At this point I don't think anything else can match the environmental
                            > sustainability of a PV-fueled EV. I'm willing to listen to arguments,
                            > though.
                            >
                            > > Our Solectria's are now historical museum displays waiting for
                            > > a place.
                            >
                            > Great! I'll start a museum and you can donate yours to it. <grin>
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                            >
                            >
                            > Visit your group "solectria_ev" on the web.
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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                            >
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                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                            >
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                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
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                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • theoldcars@aol.com
                            Hello Mike I have looked at a lot of generators mostly 240 volt to get an idea of weight and size. The light weight and size of the Honda 2000i is very good.
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jan 14, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hello Mike

                              I have looked at a lot of generators mostly 240 volt to get an idea of
                              weight and size. The light weight and size of the Honda 2000i is very good. There
                              is one on eBay right now they ran for 13,000 hours before it stopped working.
                              I don't have one but I have always been very happy with Honda products.

                              A generator that I could put in the Force but it would be tempting for trips
                              that push your range. For me in this weather (37 degrees) that is around 16
                              miles. I have new batteries U27 Gel but I have been wanting to see how long
                              these will go.

                              Before I would call a tow truck I would be calling a friend.

                              There already is a huge generator in the Force. Just use an ICE with a very
                              strong tow rope. In about one mile the Force would put 2 to 3 Ah in the pack
                              with regen on. Just a few minutes of towing and you could get home on your
                              own.

                              Don


                              In a message dated 1/14/2006 6:51:40 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                              replytome@... writes:

                              Don,
                              You sound pretty familiar with the little Honda 200i generator. I
                              don't know if you have one. I have transported mine in the trunk of
                              the Force, (97 with U27 gel configuration.) To close the trunk you
                              have to make sure the generator handle is lined up so the thicker
                              support part of the trunk lid misses it upon closing. I never tried
                              charging the car with it. I was taking the generator in for service
                              and wanted to drive cheap.

                              Short range on the Pba batteries is a fact of life and one that has
                              some positive aspects. Cab fare and towing should both be reasonable.

                              Mike
                              PS
                              You can always get out and push it for a few AH in regen if you have
                              some really strong friends.


                              --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, theoldcars@a... wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > I think all of us using lead acid batteries at one time or another
                              wish we
                              > had something for an emergency.
                              >
                              > The Brusa charger puts in about 6 Ah per hour back in the pack. This
                              is at
                              > 3.3 kW which would take at least a 3.5 K generator. It would take a 8
                              > horsepower generator and I have found they weigh from 120 to 200
                              pounds. You really
                              > have to look at the generators ability to handle a constant output
                              or prime
                              > power.
                              >
                              > Are you driving a Force? Adding 150 plus pounds is going to slightly
                              reduce
                              > your range and lower the performance a little also. Plus I don't
                              know of a
                              > generator that would fit in the trunk. It would not be an easy task
                              putting one
                              > in the back seat if you even could get it in the opening.
                              >
                              > The other option of pulling a trailer. I would consider a small
                              trailer with
                              > batteries before trying to charge while driving. Pulling a trailer
                              is not h
                              > ard but it is not fun either. It will also make finding a parking spot
                              > difficult. A trailer is going to reduce your range and performance.
                              >
                              > A smaller 120 volt generator would get you back home but depending
                              on how
                              > far you have to go it could take a very long time. A Honda EU 2000i
                              would be a
                              > nice little 120 volt unit at 46.3 pounds. It will handle 1.6 prime
                              and is 56
                              > db at 7 meters. Using 120 volts for charging should be done very
                              sparingly. I
                              > would not recommend charging at 120 except in an absolute
                              emergency. You
                              > could buy two sets of batteries and still be money ahead if you
                              burn out the
                              > charger. It would be less expensive to buy another set of batteries.
                              >
                              > I am not sure 1.6 kW would be enough for the Brusa charging at 120
                              volts.
                              > Anyone know what the Brusa charger pulls at 120 volts?
                              >
                              > Don
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > In a message dated 1/14/2006 12:03:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                              > cfrkeepr@y... writes:
                              >
                              > All of your points are well taken and I agree. My comments were not
                              meant to
                              > provoke, I was responding to statements about my interest in
                              exploring the
                              > use of a generator to extend and in some cases diffuse an
                              unfortunate but all
                              > too real stranding. What was said in the reply missed the point and
                              tried to
                              > convince the readers that such behavior was undignified of a true
                              EVer. I
                              > guess I reacted rather exaggeratedly when I was trying to justify
                              my interest.
                              > In a perfect world we would not even need automobiles, we'd just beam
                              > ourselves to where ever. In the mean time those of us pioneers must
                              work at keeping
                              > the concept of efficient and practical use of the EV in the minds
                              of those not
                              > yet enlightened. It does no good for the cause when we must tell our
                              > neighbors that we had to be towed because our battery failed. The
                              west coast is
                              > blessed with people of vision and we elsewhere are grateful. The
                              failure I speak
                              > of is only that our manufacturers have dropped all EV programs so
                              those of
                              > us with the few remaining Evs are bearing the burden of making sure
                              the idea
                              > does not dissappear. This is even more accute in parts of the
                              country where
                              > it did not manifest itself at all in the first place. I appreciate
                              all of the
                              > efforts of the people who make up this forum and for those who
                              steadfastly
                              > lobbyed to get these cars built. There is no doubt in my mind that
                              the next
                              > producton EV in the US will be coming from India and China. Until
                              that happens
                              > for better or worse, we who have made the commitment to keep these
                              EVs going
                              > are facing increased cost of service and parts which is truely
                              unfortunate
                              > because this will also not help our case. I guess my piont is that
                              we need to
                              > remain unified and continue to support each other.
                              > Thanks for being there.
                              >
                              > Bouty
                              >
                              > rod864 <rod864@y...> wrote:
                              > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "d. Bouton Baldridge"
                              > <cfrkeepr@y...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > For those of you on the west coast where EVs are more common
                              > > more power to you with charge stations galore. On the east
                              > > coast its every man for himself.
                              >
                              > I've never quite understood this concern. AC receptacles are just
                              > about the most ubiquitous fueling devices in the US! OK, most of them
                              > are 120 volt and limited to perhaps 12 amps, but a half-hour or 45
                              > minutes of that can often buy you enough range to get home.
                              >
                              > Stop by the convenience stores and gas stations on your regular
                              > routes. Have a brief chat with the manager at each. You'll find that
                              > some (not all) will be happy to take a couple of bucks from you in
                              > return for a quarter's worth of power. Ask them to post notes by
                              > their cash registers with your name and plate number, and a sentence
                              > stating that you're authorized to buy a charge.
                              >
                              > > Face it the EV is an experiment, that for now is failing.
                              >
                              > I suppose that depends on your perspective. I don't agree.
                              >
                              > > Sure we don't emit DIRECTLY, but the coal burned to produce
                              > > the electricity does.
                              >
                              > I'll admit that such ultra-clean ICEs as the Toyota Prius give EVs a
                              > run for their money. But based on conversions, most of the indirect
                              > emissions from EV charging are markedly lower than the equivalent
                              > direct emissions from the original vehicle. The reason is that the EV
                              > is much more efficient than an equivalent ICEV, and power plants have
                              > gotten cleaner in recent years.
                              >
                              > Besides, EVs can be fueled with 100% renewable fuel, which you can
                              > make yourself in your own back yard with PV panels. You can't do that
                              > with a Prius (at least not yet).
                              >
                              > Somebody is going to pop up here and point out (with some
                              > justification) that some diesels can also be fueled with fuel that one
                              > can homebrew in his own back yard. I would respond that (1) the
                              > quantity of recyclable vegetable oil available is limited, and isn't
                              > going to supply very many vehicles; (2) the emissions are cleaner than
                              > petrol diesel, but hardly as clean as EVs'; and (3) as I understand
                              > it, there are byproducts from the process which may pose a disposal
                              > problem (amenable to correction if I'm misinformed).
                              >
                              > Commercial biodiesel is a very big question mark in my book. There is
                              > a fair bit of controversy over its energy balance because soybean
                              > farming in the US is so petroleum-intensive. When you ask the
                              > question, generally the answer you get depends on who's doing the
                              > talking and what his agenda is.
                              >
                              > Besides, I'm rather uncomfortable with burning good soybeans in my car
                              > when there are so many starving people in the world. Show me that you
                              > can extract the oil from soybeans and still use them for high quality
                              > protein, and then we'll talk. (Maybe it can be done; I don't know.)
                              >
                              > At this point I don't think anything else can match the environmental
                              > sustainability of a PV-fueled EV. I'm willing to listen to arguments,
                              > though.
                              >
                              > > Our Solectria's are now historical museum displays waiting for
                              > > a place.
                              >
                              > Great! I'll start a museum and you can donate yours to it. <grin>
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
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                              >
                              > Visit your group "solectria_ev" on the web.
                              >
                              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > solectria_ev-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                              >
                              >
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                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
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                              > Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it!
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
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                            • Ken Olum
                              From: theoldcars@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 19:03:17 EST The Brusa charger puts in about 6 Ah per hour back in the pack. This is at 3.3 kW... Either this
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jan 17, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                From: theoldcars@...
                                Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 19:03:17 EST

                                The Brusa charger puts in about 6 Ah per hour back in the pack. This is at
                                3.3 kW...

                                Either this is a typo or something is wrong with your charger. It
                                should be about 18A output. The input power of 3.3kW is correct.

                                I am not sure 1.6 kW would be enough for the Brusa charging at 120 volts.
                                Anyone know what the Brusa charger pulls at 120 volts?

                                It should be about 800W. It's proportional to the square of the
                                voltage.

                                Ken
                              • theoldcars@aol.com
                                Hello Ken I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger. Charging at 240 volts for one hour I have notice the Brusa puts about 6 Ah
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jan 17, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hello Ken

                                  I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger.
                                  Charging at 240 volts for one hour I have notice the Brusa puts about 6 Ah
                                  back in the pack until it reaches the finishing charge.

                                  I used the Ah gauge as it gives you a real world amount of range your going
                                  to get. I live in an area of some very steep hills. There is nothing wrong
                                  with my car and I average 1.5 Ah per mile. I would like to add if it was not for
                                  the regen it would be at or over 2.0 Ah per mile. I pick up close to 30
                                  percent and try to make the regen last as long as possible. If an ICE is behind
                                  me that does not happen. If I get out of the area I have found I get about
                                  1.0 Ah per mile and maybe even a little better if it is slow and no stopping.

                                  At this site _http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/charger.shtml#sol_
                                  (http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/charger.shtml#sol) the Brusa is 120 volts with
                                  12 Amps in and 10 Amps out. Going by that would 1440 watts be correct?

                                  Don

                                  In a message dated 1/17/2006 8:10:05 AM Pacific Standard Time,
                                  kdo@... writes:

                                  From: theoldcars@...
                                  Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 19:03:17 EST

                                  The Brusa charger puts in about 6 Ah per hour back in the pack. This is at
                                  3.3 kW...

                                  Either this is a typo or something is wrong with your charger. It
                                  should be about 18A output. The input power of 3.3kW is correct.

                                  I am not sure 1.6 kW would be enough for the Brusa charging at 120 volts.
                                  Anyone know what the Brusa charger pulls at 120 volts?

                                  It should be about 800W. It's proportional to the square of the
                                  voltage.

                                  Ken






                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Ken Olum
                                  From: theoldcars@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 15:58:26 EST I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger. Charging at 240 volts
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jan 17, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    From: theoldcars@...
                                    Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 15:58:26 EST

                                    I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger.
                                    Charging at 240 volts for one hour I have notice the Brusa puts about 6 Ah
                                    back in the pack until it reaches the finishing charge.

                                    What pack voltage are we talking about? Is it 156V nominal, like
                                    mine? Are you measuring it when the pack is significantly discharged?
                                    If so, something is wrong. It should be more than 3kW output, which
                                    means at least 17A into 170V.

                                    At this site _http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/charger.shtml#sol_
                                    (http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/charger.shtml#sol) the Brusa is 120 volts with
                                    12 Amps in and 10 Amps out. Going by that would 1440 watts be correct?

                                    Assuming the charger is a Brusa NLG-412, I think this is wrong, unless
                                    you get a special-purpose version of the charger (NLG-4121) that is
                                    intended for low input voltage.

                                    Ken
                                  • Stephen Taylor
                                    Don: I think Ken is right. The charger should be lowering your AH guage by something closer to 18AH per hour not 6AHs when using a 240 volt outlet. In other
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jan 17, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Don:

                                      I think Ken is right. The charger should be lowering your AH guage by something closer to 18AH per hour not 6AHs when using a 240 volt outlet. In other words, after one hour of charging you should be gaining back about 12 to 18 miles of extra range, it sounds like you are getting about 1/3 of that.

                                      Of course the rate does slow down substanially as the batteries get closer to full, maybe that is where the confusion is.

                                      Stephen Taylor



                                      theoldcars@... wrote:
                                      Hello Ken

                                      I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger.
                                      Charging at 240 volts for one hour I have notice the Brusa puts about 6 Ah
                                      back in the pack until it reaches the finishing charge.



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                                    • theoldcars@aol.com
                                      Is the Amp hour gauge in the dash is going to be close to the same as the Amps being put in by the charger? Even with new batteries your going to have some
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jan 18, 2006
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Is the Amp hour gauge in the dash is going to be close to the same as the
                                        Amps being put in by the charger? Even with new batteries your going to have
                                        some loss?

                                        I am charging only with 240 volts. The batteries are the original Gel making
                                        them at least eight years old with close to 19,000 miles. Sounds like they
                                        must be causing a huge amount of resistance.

                                        I have placed a clamp meter at the charger it is putting in 15 to 16 Amps at
                                        the start of charging and after a while drops to 12 to 14 Amps. I have time
                                        it and never has been more than 6 Ah on the dash for the last year. I have
                                        only had this Solectria for a one and a half years and it had 14,500 to start
                                        with. I do not have any experience with new batteries.

                                        It would be interesting to know what others are getting in the first hour
                                        back on your Ah gauge on the dash with 240 and 120. Even just using a watch and
                                        giving a rough idea how long it takes to put in one Ah. You should be
                                        putting in one Ah in three minutes and thirty-five seconds at 18 Ah per hour rate.

                                        I was basing the value of a small generator on how fast my batteries were
                                        charging on 240. I am guessing if your charging at 120 with good batteries you
                                        should be in the range of 6 Ah back in the pack in an hour?

                                        That would make a huge difference. Being able to keep the weight of a
                                        generator to 45 pounds would be worth adding another charger like a PFC 30. Then
                                        you could charge at 120 and not risk damaging the Brusa.


                                        Don

                                        In a message dated 1/17/2006 2:06:23 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                                        sparrow262@... writes:

                                        Don:

                                        I think Ken is right. The charger should be lowering your AH guage by
                                        something closer to 18AH per hour not 6AHs when using a 240 volt outlet. In other
                                        words, after one hour of charging you should be gaining back about 12 to 18
                                        miles of extra range, it sounds like you are getting about 1/3 of that.

                                        Of course the rate does slow down substanially as the batteries get closer
                                        to full, maybe that is where the confusion is.

                                        Stephen Taylor



                                        theoldcars@... wrote:
                                        Hello Ken

                                        I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger.
                                        Charging at 240 volts for one hour I have notice the Brusa puts about 6 Ah
                                        back in the pack until it reaches the finishing charge.



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                                      • Stephen Taylor
                                        I am charging my 156 volt NiCD Force right now. One hour ago the AH guage read 49AH, it now reads 34AH so it went down 15AHs in one hour. I ll check my lead
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jan 18, 2006
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          I am charging my 156 volt NiCD Force right now. One hour ago the AH guage read 49AH, it now reads 34AH so it went down 15AHs in one hour.

                                          I'll check my lead acid car this afternoon, but my AH guage in it has a funny problem. When it is charging or regenerating it overestimates the amount of energy put back by about 40%. It does this anytime the AH guage is going down (charging or regen) and the number is XX.40 or XX.X4. The next number after XX.40 as it is charging is XX.19 and the next number after XX.X4 is XX.X1 when charging. It does this everytime, but only going down it counts up properly. So what I'm saying is that I will see my AH guage go down in that car by almost 25AH in one hour and of course I see huge negative numbers before the overcharge is done.

                                          If you know the charger is putting in 15 to 16 amps into the batteries, it sounds like your AH guage is not counting it properly. Kind of the opposite of what mine is doing. Does your AH guage eventually go to negative numbers during the overcharge? Is the guage always starting at zero after you unplug it from a full charge or are there times it doesn't quite reach zero?

                                          Stephen Taylor

                                          theoldcars@... wrote:

                                          Is the Amp hour gauge in the dash is going to be close to the same as the
                                          Amps being put in by the charger? Even with new batteries your going to have
                                          some loss?

                                          I am charging only with 240 volts. The batteries are the original Gel making
                                          them at least eight years old with close to 19,000 miles. Sounds like they
                                          must be causing a huge amount of resistance.

                                          I have placed a clamp meter at the charger it is putting in 15 to 16 Amps at
                                          the start of charging and after a while drops to 12 to 14 Amps. I have time
                                          it and never has been more than 6 Ah on the dash for the last year. I have
                                          only had this Solectria for a one and a half years and it had 14,500 to start
                                          with. I do not have any experience with new batteries.

                                          It would be interesting to know what others are getting in the first hour
                                          back on your Ah gauge on the dash with 240 and 120. Even just using a watch and
                                          giving a rough idea how long it takes to put in one Ah. You should be
                                          putting in one Ah in three minutes and thirty-five seconds at 18 Ah per hour rate.

                                          I was basing the value of a small generator on how fast my batteries were
                                          charging on 240. I am guessing if your charging at 120 with good batteries you
                                          should be in the range of 6 Ah back in the pack in an hour?

                                          That would make a huge difference. Being able to keep the weight of a
                                          generator to 45 pounds would be worth adding another charger like a PFC 30. Then
                                          you could charge at 120 and not risk damaging the Brusa.


                                          Don

                                          In a message dated 1/17/2006 2:06:23 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                                          sparrow262@... writes:

                                          Don:

                                          I think Ken is right. The charger should be lowering your AH guage by
                                          something closer to 18AH per hour not 6AHs when using a 240 volt outlet. In other
                                          words, after one hour of charging you should be gaining back about 12 to 18
                                          miles of extra range, it sounds like you are getting about 1/3 of that.

                                          Of course the rate does slow down substanially as the batteries get closer
                                          to full, maybe that is where the confusion is.

                                          Stephen Taylor



                                          theoldcars@... wrote:
                                          Hello Ken

                                          I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger.
                                          Charging at 240 volts for one hour I have notice the Brusa puts about 6 Ah
                                          back in the pack until it reaches the finishing charge.



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                                        • Stephen Taylor
                                          OK I ran my lead acid Force this afternoon. During the first six minutes of charging my guage went from 14.05 to 11.07 or down 2.98 AHs. At that rate in one
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jan 18, 2006
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                                            OK I ran my lead acid Force this afternoon. During the first six minutes of charging my guage went from 14.05 to 11.07 or down 2.98 AHs. At that rate in one hour it would be down 29.8 AHs. As I said before it skips from .40 to .19 everytime and similarly with the hundreds of an AH column. This is a 40% error so subtracting 40% from 29.8 leaves 17.88 AHs. So 17.88 AH per hour is the actual reduction my AH guage should be seeing during full power charging. Full power charging I believe continues until the batteries reach 183.3 volts at which point the charger begins it constant voltage phase so the amps begin to throttle back.

                                            Stephen Taylor

                                            theoldcars@... wrote:
                                            Even just using a watch and
                                            giving a rough idea how long it takes to put in one Ah. You should be
                                            putting in one Ah in three minutes and thirty-five seconds at 18 Ah per hour rate.

                                            Don



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                                          • theoldcars@aol.com
                                            Hello Stephen Thanks checking and posting the information. So if it is 18 Ah from 240 would it be 9 Ah at 120 in an hour? Don In a message dated 1/18/2006
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jan 18, 2006
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Hello Stephen

                                              Thanks checking and posting the information. So if it is 18 Ah from 240
                                              would it be 9 Ah at 120 in an hour?


                                              Don

                                              In a message dated 1/18/2006 1:50:26 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                                              sparrow262@... writes:


                                              OK I ran my lead acid Force this afternoon. During the first six minutes of
                                              charging my guage went from 14.05 to 11.07 or down 2.98 AHs. At that rate
                                              in one hour it would be down 29.8 AHs. As I said before it skips from .40
                                              to .19 everytime and similarly with the hundreds of an AH column. This is a
                                              40% error so subtracting 40% from 29.8 leaves 17.88 AHs. So 17.88 AH per hour
                                              is the actual reduction my AH guage should be seeing during full power
                                              charging. Full power charging I believe continues until the batteries reach 183.3
                                              volts at which point the charger begins it constant voltage phase so the
                                              amps begin to throttle back.

                                              Stephen Taylor

                                              theoldcars@... wrote:
                                              Even just using a watch and
                                              giving a rough idea how long it takes to put in one Ah. You should be
                                              putting in one Ah in three minutes and thirty-five seconds at 18 Ah per
                                              hour rate.

                                              Don



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                                            • Jay Grossman
                                              I m getting about a 6Ah reduction from the dash Ah meter per hour of charging in my 95 force with dual brusca chargers. Jay H Grossman theoldcars@aol.com
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Jan 19, 2006
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                I'm getting about a 6Ah reduction from the dash Ah meter per hour of charging in my 95 force with dual brusca chargers.
                                                Jay H Grossman


                                                theoldcars@... wrote:
                                                Is the Amp hour gauge in the dash is going to be close to the same as the
                                                Amps being put in by the charger? Even with new batteries your going to have
                                                some loss?

                                                I am charging only with 240 volts. The batteries are the original Gel making
                                                them at least eight years old with close to 19,000 miles. Sounds like they
                                                must be causing a huge amount of resistance.

                                                I have placed a clamp meter at the charger it is putting in 15 to 16 Amps at
                                                the start of charging and after a while drops to 12 to 14 Amps. I have time
                                                it and never has been more than 6 Ah on the dash for the last year. I have
                                                only had this Solectria for a one and a half years and it had 14,500 to start
                                                with. I do not have any experience with new batteries.

                                                It would be interesting to know what others are getting in the first hour
                                                back on your Ah gauge on the dash with 240 and 120. Even just using a watch and
                                                giving a rough idea how long it takes to put in one Ah. You should be
                                                putting in one Ah in three minutes and thirty-five seconds at 18 Ah per hour rate.

                                                I was basing the value of a small generator on how fast my batteries were
                                                charging on 240. I am guessing if your charging at 120 with good batteries you
                                                should be in the range of 6 Ah back in the pack in an hour?

                                                That would make a huge difference. Being able to keep the weight of a
                                                generator to 45 pounds would be worth adding another charger like a PFC 30. Then
                                                you could charge at 120 and not risk damaging the Brusa.


                                                Don

                                                In a message dated 1/17/2006 2:06:23 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                                                sparrow262@... writes:

                                                Don:

                                                I think Ken is right. The charger should be lowering your AH guage by
                                                something closer to 18AH per hour not 6AHs when using a 240 volt outlet. In other
                                                words, after one hour of charging you should be gaining back about 12 to 18
                                                miles of extra range, it sounds like you are getting about 1/3 of that.

                                                Of course the rate does slow down substanially as the batteries get closer
                                                to full, maybe that is where the confusion is.

                                                Stephen Taylor



                                                theoldcars@... wrote:
                                                Hello Ken

                                                I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger.
                                                Charging at 240 volts for one hour I have notice the Brusa puts about 6 Ah
                                                back in the pack until it reaches the finishing charge.



                                                ---------------------------------
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                                                Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands
                                                ASAP.

                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                                              • theoldcars@aol.com
                                                Hello Jay Is that with 240 volts? Batteries Gel? Age and miles? Don In a message dated 1/19/2006 9:32:35 AM Pacific Standard Time, jgrossm3@yahoo.com writes:
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Jan 19, 2006
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Hello Jay

                                                  Is that with 240 volts? Batteries Gel? Age and miles?

                                                  Don


                                                  In a message dated 1/19/2006 9:32:35 AM Pacific Standard Time,
                                                  jgrossm3@... writes:

                                                  I'm getting about a 6Ah reduction from the dash Ah meter per hour of
                                                  charging in my 95 force with dual brusca chargers.
                                                  Jay H Grossman


                                                  theoldcars@... wrote:
                                                  Is the Amp hour gauge in the dash is going to be close to the same as the
                                                  Amps being put in by the charger? Even with new batteries your going to have

                                                  some loss?

                                                  I am charging only with 240 volts. The batteries are the original Gel
                                                  making
                                                  them at least eight years old with close to 19,000 miles. Sounds like they
                                                  must be causing a huge amount of resistance.

                                                  I have placed a clamp meter at the charger it is putting in 15 to 16 Amps
                                                  at
                                                  the start of charging and after a while drops to 12 to 14 Amps. I have time

                                                  it and never has been more than 6 Ah on the dash for the last year. I have
                                                  only had this Solectria for a one and a half years and it had 14,500 to
                                                  start
                                                  with. I do not have any experience with new batteries.

                                                  It would be interesting to know what others are getting in the first hour
                                                  back on your Ah gauge on the dash with 240 and 120. Even just using a watch
                                                  and
                                                  giving a rough idea how long it takes to put in one Ah. You should be
                                                  putting in one Ah in three minutes and thirty-five seconds at 18 Ah per
                                                  hour rate.

                                                  I was basing the value of a small generator on how fast my batteries were
                                                  charging on 240. I am guessing if your charging at 120 with good batteries
                                                  you
                                                  should be in the range of 6 Ah back in the pack in an hour?

                                                  That would make a huge difference. Being able to keep the weight of a
                                                  generator to 45 pounds would be worth adding another charger like a PFC 30.
                                                  Then
                                                  you could charge at 120 and not risk damaging the Brusa.


                                                  Don

                                                  In a message dated 1/17/2006 2:06:23 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                                                  sparrow262@... writes:

                                                  Don:

                                                  I think Ken is right. The charger should be lowering your AH guage by
                                                  something closer to 18AH per hour not 6AHs when using a 240 volt outlet.
                                                  In other
                                                  words, after one hour of charging you should be gaining back about 12 to 18
                                                  miles of extra range, it sounds like you are getting about 1/3 of that.

                                                  Of course the rate does slow down substanially as the batteries get closer
                                                  to full, maybe that is where the confusion is.

                                                  Stephen Taylor



                                                  theoldcars@... wrote:
                                                  Hello Ken

                                                  I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger.
                                                  Charging at 240 volts for one hour I have notice the Brusa puts about 6 Ah
                                                  back in the pack until it reaches the finishing charge.



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                                                • Stephen Taylor
                                                  Don Did 6 minutes of charge on 120volts. AH started at 19.51 and ended at 18.65. That is a change of .86 or 8.6 for one hour. Subtracting 40% for my AH
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Jan 19, 2006
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Don

                                                    Did 6 minutes of charge on 120volts. AH started at 19.51 and ended at 18.65. That is a change of .86 or 8.6 for one hour. Subtracting 40% for my AH guage problem mentioned earlier that leaves 5.16 AH per hour. So it would appear at 120 volts it must be doing only about 1/3 (maybe even less) the charge rate as at 240 volts.

                                                    Stephen Taylor

                                                    theoldcars@... wrote:

                                                    Hello Stephen

                                                    Thanks checking and posting the information. So if it is 18 Ah from 240
                                                    would it be 9 Ah at 120 in an hour?


                                                    Don

                                                    In a message dated 1/18/2006 1:50:26 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                                                    sparrow262@... writes:


                                                    OK I ran my lead acid Force this afternoon. During the first six minutes of
                                                    charging my guage went from 14.05 to 11.07 or down 2.98 AHs. At that rate
                                                    in one hour it would be down 29.8 AHs. As I said before it skips from .40
                                                    to .19 everytime and similarly with the hundreds of an AH column. This is a
                                                    40% error so subtracting 40% from 29.8 leaves 17.88 AHs. So 17.88 AH per hour
                                                    is the actual reduction my AH guage should be seeing during full power
                                                    charging. Full power charging I believe continues until the batteries reach 183.3
                                                    volts at which point the charger begins it constant voltage phase so the
                                                    amps begin to throttle back.

                                                    Stephen Taylor

                                                    theoldcars@... wrote:
                                                    Even just using a watch and
                                                    giving a rough idea how long it takes to put in one Ah. You should be
                                                    putting in one Ah in three minutes and thirty-five seconds at 18 Ah per
                                                    hour rate.

                                                    Don



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                                                  • Jim Coate
                                                    Someone else recently posted that it goes as the square, so will at 120 volts will be doing only 1/4 of the rate at 240 volts. The value of 800 watts was
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Jan 19, 2006
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Someone else recently posted that it goes as the square, so will at 120
                                                      volts will be doing only 1/4 of the rate at 240 volts.

                                                      The value of 800 watts was mentioned along the way...
                                                      800 watts of charging power on 120 volts
                                                      3300 watts of charging power on 240 volts
                                                      and 800/3300 = 25%



                                                      Stephen Taylor wrote:
                                                      > So it would appear at 120 volts it must be doing only about 1/3
                                                      > (maybe even less) the charge rate as at 240 volts.





                                                      --
                                                      Jim Coate
                                                      1970's Elec-Trak's
                                                      1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
                                                      1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
                                                      http://www.eeevee.com
                                                    • Jay Grossman
                                                      240 Volts at home, Dekka 8G27M batteries which are 8 months old (May 2005), with 5400 miles on this pack. My principal driving is 17 miles to the office
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Jan 20, 2006
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        240 Volts at home, Dekka 8G27M batteries which are 8 months old (May 2005), with 5400 miles on this pack. My principal driving is 17 miles to the office where I have a 208v outlet to charge during the day and then 17 miles home where I have a 240v outlet.
                                                        Jay H Grossman

                                                        theoldcars@... wrote:
                                                        Hello Jay

                                                        Is that with 240 volts? Batteries Gel? Age and miles?

                                                        Don


                                                        In a message dated 1/19/2006 9:32:35 AM Pacific Standard Time,
                                                        jgrossm3@... writes:

                                                        I'm getting about a 6Ah reduction from the dash Ah meter per hour of
                                                        charging in my 95 force with dual brusca chargers.
                                                        Jay H Grossman


                                                        theoldcars@... wrote:
                                                        Is the Amp hour gauge in the dash is going to be close to the same as the
                                                        Amps being put in by the charger? Even with new batteries your going to have

                                                        some loss?

                                                        I am charging only with 240 volts. The batteries are the original Gel
                                                        making
                                                        them at least eight years old with close to 19,000 miles. Sounds like they
                                                        must be causing a huge amount of resistance.

                                                        I have placed a clamp meter at the charger it is putting in 15 to 16 Amps
                                                        at
                                                        the start of charging and after a while drops to 12 to 14 Amps. I have time

                                                        it and never has been more than 6 Ah on the dash for the last year. I have
                                                        only had this Solectria for a one and a half years and it had 14,500 to
                                                        start
                                                        with. I do not have any experience with new batteries.

                                                        It would be interesting to know what others are getting in the first hour
                                                        back on your Ah gauge on the dash with 240 and 120. Even just using a watch
                                                        and
                                                        giving a rough idea how long it takes to put in one Ah. You should be
                                                        putting in one Ah in three minutes and thirty-five seconds at 18 Ah per
                                                        hour rate.

                                                        I was basing the value of a small generator on how fast my batteries were
                                                        charging on 240. I am guessing if your charging at 120 with good batteries
                                                        you
                                                        should be in the range of 6 Ah back in the pack in an hour?

                                                        That would make a huge difference. Being able to keep the weight of a
                                                        generator to 45 pounds would be worth adding another charger like a PFC 30.
                                                        Then
                                                        you could charge at 120 and not risk damaging the Brusa.


                                                        Don

                                                        In a message dated 1/17/2006 2:06:23 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                                                        sparrow262@... writes:

                                                        Don:

                                                        I think Ken is right. The charger should be lowering your AH guage by
                                                        something closer to 18AH per hour not 6AHs when using a 240 volt outlet.
                                                        In other
                                                        words, after one hour of charging you should be gaining back about 12 to 18
                                                        miles of extra range, it sounds like you are getting about 1/3 of that.

                                                        Of course the rate does slow down substanially as the batteries get closer
                                                        to full, maybe that is where the confusion is.

                                                        Stephen Taylor



                                                        theoldcars@... wrote:
                                                        Hello Ken

                                                        I was using the Ah gauge on the dash not the actual output of the charger.
                                                        Charging at 240 volts for one hour I have notice the Brusa puts about 6 Ah
                                                        back in the pack until it reaches the finishing charge.



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