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Re: [solectria_ev] Re: Who has an NiMH Force?

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  • theoldcars@aol.com
    Having passive cooling while driving would be good but I don t believe it would be enough by itself to always keep them from over heating while driving. A
    Message 1 of 17 , Nov 1, 2005
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      Having passive cooling while driving would be good but I don't believe it
      would be enough by itself to always keep them from over heating while driving.

      A liquid cooling system would be more efficient.

      Don Blazer

      In a message dated 10/31/2005 9:01:35 PM Pacific Standard Time,
      nluneau@... writes:

      Hi Jim,

      I was thinking that passive cooling while driving, using directed air,
      would save some of the energy required to cool the Ovonics. I was also
      under the impression that the critical time to have adequate cooling was
      during the charging cycle.

      What do you think?

      Noel






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Stephen Taylor
      My Toyota made RAV4 EV with NiMH batteries uses fans continuously during charging to cool the batteries and also turns on while driving if any of the
      Message 2 of 17 , Nov 1, 2005
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        My Toyota made RAV4 EV with NiMH batteries uses fans continuously during charging to cool the batteries and also turns on while driving if any of the temperature sensors reach 100F. Many of the RAV4 EV owners don't believe even that is enough. For instance if the car isn't charging and it isn't running and the batteries are above 100F the fans don't run, but the batteries sit there at too high a temperature.

        So it would appear with NiMH more cooling is best.

        Stephen Taylor

        theoldcars@... wrote:

        Having passive cooling while driving would be good but I don't believe it
        would be enough by itself to always keep them from over heating while driving.

        A liquid cooling system would be more efficient.

        Don Blazer

        In a message dated 10/31/2005 9:01:35 PM Pacific Standard Time,
        nluneau@... writes:

        Hi Jim,

        I was thinking that passive cooling while driving, using directed air,
        would save some of the energy required to cool the Ovonics. I was also
        under the impression that the critical time to have adequate cooling was
        during the charging cycle.

        What do you think?

        Noel






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      • Adam Kuehn
        While looking into acquiring a NIMH force, I did some pretty good research on the batteries. I decided that there was no way I could safely (for the
        Message 3 of 17 , Nov 1, 2005
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          While looking into acquiring a NIMH force, I did some pretty good
          research on the batteries. I decided that there was no way I could
          safely (for the batteries) operate a NIMH vehicle in North Carolina.
          It is simply impossible to keep the cells cool enough during charging
          and under load during the summers here. Personally, I'm not sure
          even a liquid system would be enough. I'm not sure where you are,
          exactly, but if it regularly hits the mid-to-high-90s there, I would
          seriously consider some other battery chemistry. I certainly
          wouldn't use passive cooling during the summer pretty much anywhere
          south of Canada.

          Just my two cents,

          -Adam Kuehn

          >My Toyota made RAV4 EV with NiMH batteries uses fans continuously
          >during charging to cool the batteries and also turns on while
          >driving if any of the temperature sensors reach 100F. Many of the
          >RAV4 EV owners don't believe even that is enough. For instance if
          >the car isn't charging and it isn't running and the batteries are
          >above 100F the fans don't run, but the batteries sit there at too
          >high a temperature.
          >
          >So it would appear with NiMH more cooling is best.
          >
          >Stephen Taylor
          >
          >theoldcars@... wrote:
          >
          >Having passive cooling while driving would be good but I don't believe it
          >would be enough by itself to always keep them from over heating
          >while driving.
          >
          >A liquid cooling system would be more efficient.
          >
          >Don Blazer
          >
          >In a message dated 10/31/2005 9:01:35 PM Pacific Standard Time,
          >nluneau@... writes:
          >
          >Hi Jim,
          >
          >I was thinking that passive cooling while driving, using directed air,
          >would save some of the energy required to cool the Ovonics. I was also
          >under the impression that the critical time to have adequate cooling was
          >during the charging cycle.
          >
          >What do you think?
          >
          >Noel
          >
        • Rex Allison
          Noel, Besides already having the NIMH batteries on hand, can I ask what your motivation is to not stick with Pb batteries. Do you have an exceptionally long
          Message 4 of 17 , Nov 1, 2005
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            Noel,
            Besides already having the NIMH batteries on hand, can
            I ask what your motivation is to not stick with Pb
            batteries. Do you have an exceptionally long commute?

            Another data point I generally get 1.5Ahr to the mile
            always driving in Normal mode with lots of stop and go
            driving, flat grade, I typically use 12 Ahr between
            recharges and try to keep my maximum discharge to 25
            Ahr. I also keep the regen off below 8 to 10 Ahr
            because of the squeeling from the regen current limit.
            Rex

            --- Adam Kuehn <akuehn@...> wrote:

            > While looking into acquiring a NIMH force, I did
            > some pretty good
            > research on the batteries. I decided that there was
            > no way I could
            > safely (for the batteries) operate a NIMH vehicle in
            > North Carolina.
            > It is simply impossible to keep the cells cool
            > enough during charging
            > and under load during the summers here. Personally,
            > I'm not sure
            > even a liquid system would be enough. I'm not sure
            > where you are,
            > exactly, but if it regularly hits the
            > mid-to-high-90s there, I would
            > seriously consider some other battery chemistry. I
            > certainly
            > wouldn't use passive cooling during the summer
            > pretty much anywhere
            > south of Canada.
            >
            > Just my two cents,
            >
            > -Adam Kuehn
            >
            > >My Toyota made RAV4 EV with NiMH batteries uses
            > fans continuously
            > >during charging to cool the batteries and also
            > turns on while
            > >driving if any of the temperature sensors reach
            > 100F. Many of the
            > >RAV4 EV owners don't believe even that is enough.
            > For instance if
            > >the car isn't charging and it isn't running and the
            > batteries are
            > >above 100F the fans don't run, but the batteries
            > sit there at too
            > >high a temperature.
            > >
            > >So it would appear with NiMH more cooling is best.
            > >
            > >Stephen Taylor
            > >
            > >theoldcars@... wrote:
            > >
            > >Having passive cooling while driving would be good
            > but I don't believe it
            > >would be enough by itself to always keep them from
            > over heating
            > >while driving.
            > >
            > >A liquid cooling system would be more efficient.
            > >
            > >Don Blazer
            > >
            > >In a message dated 10/31/2005 9:01:35 PM Pacific
            > Standard Time,
            > >nluneau@... writes:
            > >
            > >Hi Jim,
            > >
            > >I was thinking that passive cooling while driving,
            > using directed air,
            > >would save some of the energy required to cool the
            > Ovonics. I was also
            > >under the impression that the critical time to have
            > adequate cooling was
            > >during the charging cycle.
            > >
            > >What do you think?
            > >
            > >Noel
            > >
            >




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          • Noel P. Luneau
            Hi Rex, My commute on some days will be 21 miles each with no opportunity charging available. 15 NiMH batteries will get me there and back. Noel
            Message 5 of 17 , Nov 1, 2005
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              Hi Rex,

              My commute on some days will be 21 miles each with no opportunity
              charging available. 15 NiMH batteries will get me there and back.

              Noel

              ________________________________

              From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com [mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com]
              On Behalf Of Rex Allison
              Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 8:21 AM
              To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Re: Who has an NiMH Force?


              Noel,
              Besides already having the NIMH batteries on hand, can
              I ask what your motivation is to not stick with Pb
              batteries. Do you have an exceptionally long commute?

              Another data point I generally get 1.5Ahr to the mile
              always driving in Normal mode with lots of stop and go
              driving, flat grade, I typically use 12 Ahr between
              recharges and try to keep my maximum discharge to 25
              Ahr. I also keep the regen off below 8 to 10 Ahr
              because of the squeeling from the regen current limit.
              Rex

              --- Adam Kuehn <akuehn@...> wrote:

              > While looking into acquiring a NIMH force, I did
              > some pretty good
              > research on the batteries. I decided that there was
              > no way I could
              > safely (for the batteries) operate a NIMH vehicle in
              > North Carolina.
              > It is simply impossible to keep the cells cool
              > enough during charging
              > and under load during the summers here. Personally,
              > I'm not sure
              > even a liquid system would be enough. I'm not sure
              > where you are,
              > exactly, but if it regularly hits the
              > mid-to-high-90s there, I would
              > seriously consider some other battery chemistry. I
              > certainly
              > wouldn't use passive cooling during the summer
              > pretty much anywhere
              > south of Canada.
              >
              > Just my two cents,
              >
              > -Adam Kuehn
              >
              > >My Toyota made RAV4 EV with NiMH batteries uses
              > fans continuously
              > >during charging to cool the batteries and also
              > turns on while
              > >driving if any of the temperature sensors reach
              > 100F. Many of the
              > >RAV4 EV owners don't believe even that is enough.
              > For instance if
              > >the car isn't charging and it isn't running and the
              > batteries are
              > >above 100F the fans don't run, but the batteries
              > sit there at too
              > >high a temperature.
              > >
              > >So it would appear with NiMH more cooling is best.
              > >
              > >Stephen Taylor
              > >
              > >theoldcars@... wrote:
              > >
              > >Having passive cooling while driving would be good
              > but I don't believe it
              > >would be enough by itself to always keep them from
              > over heating
              > >while driving.
              > >
              > >A liquid cooling system would be more efficient.
              > >
              > >Don Blazer
              > >
              > >In a message dated 10/31/2005 9:01:35 PM Pacific
              > Standard Time,
              > >nluneau@... writes:
              > >
              > >Hi Jim,
              > >
              > >I was thinking that passive cooling while driving,
              > using directed air,
              > >would save some of the energy required to cool the
              > Ovonics. I was also
              > >under the impression that the critical time to have
              > adequate cooling was
              > >during the charging cycle.
              > >
              > >What do you think?
              > >
              > >Noel
              > >
              >




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            • Anil Paryani
              I am planning on putting in Panasonic NiMh batteries (used in the EV Plus and RAV-4 EVs). I am going to use passive air cooling. These batteries are much
              Message 6 of 17 , Nov 27, 2005
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                I am planning on putting in Panasonic NiMh batteries (used in the EV Plus and RAV-4 EVs). I am going to use passive air cooling. These batteries are much more efficient than Ovonics. Under 25C ambient charging (with a decent cooling system) the coulombic efficiency is about 105%.

                As far as the Ovonics goes, typically at 25C, 110% of overcharge is needed. It is much worst at temperatures above this and practically unchargeable at temperatures around 35C.

                To improve your efficiency for the Ovonic battery packs, I recommend reducing you charge current which reduces the i2r heat and reaction heat when the battery temperature is above the 25C rate.

                "Noel P. Luneau" <nluneau@...> wrote: Hi Jim,

                I was thinking that passive cooling while driving, using directed air,
                would save some of the energy required to cool the Ovonics. I was also
                under the impression that the critical time to have adequate cooling was
                during the charging cycle.

                What do you think?

                Noel

                ________________________________

                From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com [mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com]
                On Behalf Of Jim Coate
                Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 5:41 PM
                To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Re: Who has an NiMH Force?


                It's taken me a while to catch on that Solectria was originally using
                these particular NiMH batteries... they were used by GM in the OEM S-10e

                trucks in addition to the EV1's.

                One thing to be aware of is that they generate a lot of heat, especially

                during charging... which you probably realize since you are talking
                about active cooling. The hidden catch is that this greatly increases
                the power (KWH) used per mile as measured 'from the outlet'.

                According to published reports of the S-10 with these batteries
                <http://www.evbones.com/s10Report2.pdf>, the batteries themselves
                require about an extra 33%, or "over charge" to get full again. As in
                you'll put 1.33 times as much into the batteries as you get out. And the

                bigger deal (to me) is that it takes just over *twice* as much from the
                AC power source as you get back out of the batteries in the end. As best

                as I can tell, this lost power goes to cooling the battery pack. For
                comparison, this is 1.5 times as much power from the outlet per mile
                traveled as the lead-acid S-10. And yes, I have a NiMH S-10... ironic,
                eh?



                Noel P. Luneau wrote:
                > Hi Ralph,
                >
                > I bought the batteries awhile in what I think was a one time sale.
                However, Victor from MetricMind announced that he can get a bunch and is
                looking at selling them for 170 each. The batteries are the Ovonic
                batteries that were used in the EV-1, and the Force. 13.2v and 85 Ah.



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              • Noel P. Luneau
                Thanks Anil! Just a couple of questions... :-) 1. Where are you buying your Panasonic NiMH batteries? 2. Do you have a charging profile for your charger for
                Message 7 of 17 , Nov 27, 2005
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                  Thanks Anil!



                  Just a couple of questions... :-)



                  1. Where are you buying your Panasonic NiMH batteries?
                  2. Do you have a charging profile for your charger for the NiMH
                  batteries?
                  3. Are you going to program your charger and controller?
                  4. Are you going to modify your battery boxes or build new ones?
                  5. When you say passive, do you mean with or without battery box
                  fans?
                  6. What sort of BTMS are you going to use?

                  Do you have a Force?



                  So many more questions :-)



                  Thanks,



                  Noel



                  ________________________________

                  From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com [mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com]
                  On Behalf Of Anil Paryani
                  Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2005 9:19 PM
                  To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [solectria_ev] Re: Who has an NiMH Force?



                  I am planning on putting in Panasonic NiMh batteries (used in the EV
                  Plus and RAV-4 EVs). I am going to use passive air cooling. These
                  batteries are much more efficient than Ovonics. Under 25C ambient
                  charging (with a decent cooling system) the coulombic efficiency is
                  about 105%.

                  As far as the Ovonics goes, typically at 25C, 110% of overcharge is
                  needed. It is much worst at temperatures above this and practically
                  unchargeable at temperatures around 35C.

                  To improve your efficiency for the Ovonic battery packs, I recommend
                  reducing you charge current which reduces the i2r heat and reaction
                  heat when the battery temperature is above the 25C rate.

                  "Noel P. Luneau" <nluneau@...> wrote: Hi Jim,

                  I was thinking that passive cooling while driving, using directed air,
                  would save some of the energy required to cool the Ovonics. I was
                  also
                  under the impression that the critical time to have adequate cooling
                  was
                  during the charging cycle.

                  What do you think?

                  Noel

                  ________________________________

                  From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com]
                  On Behalf Of Jim Coate
                  Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 5:41 PM
                  To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Re: Who has an NiMH Force?


                  It's taken me a while to catch on that Solectria was originally using
                  these particular NiMH batteries... they were used by GM in the OEM
                  S-10e

                  trucks in addition to the EV1's.

                  One thing to be aware of is that they generate a lot of heat,
                  especially

                  during charging... which you probably realize since you are talking
                  about active cooling. The hidden catch is that this greatly increases
                  the power (KWH) used per mile as measured 'from the outlet'.

                  According to published reports of the S-10 with these batteries
                  <http://www.evbones.com/s10Report2.pdf>, the batteries themselves
                  require about an extra 33%, or "over charge" to get full again. As in
                  you'll put 1.33 times as much into the batteries as you get out. And
                  the

                  bigger deal (to me) is that it takes just over *twice* as much from
                  the
                  AC power source as you get back out of the batteries in the end. As
                  best

                  as I can tell, this lost power goes to cooling the battery pack. For
                  comparison, this is 1.5 times as much power from the outlet per mile
                  traveled as the lead-acid S-10. And yes, I have a NiMH S-10... ironic,
                  eh?



                  Noel P. Luneau wrote:
                  > Hi Ralph,
                  >
                  > I bought the batteries awhile in what I think was a one time sale.
                  However, Victor from MetricMind announced that he can get a bunch and
                  is
                  looking at selling them for 170 each. The batteries are the Ovonic
                  batteries that were used in the EV-1, and the Force. 13.2v and 85 Ah.



                  ________________________________

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                  <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/solectria_ev> " on the web.

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                • laminar1314
                  My Rav has a fairly sophisticated battery cooling system. When I looked into putting the Panasonics in my Force, it became apparent why. NiMH has a high
                  Message 8 of 17 , Nov 28, 2005
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                    My Rav has a fairly sophisticated battery cooling system. When I
                    looked into putting the Panasonics in my Force, it became apparent
                    why. NiMH has a high auto-discharge rate which begins immediately
                    after a full charge. This is a temperature dependant exothermic
                    reaction. The rate of discharge increases as temperature goes up.
                    Thus a "runaway" reaction is possible. Cooling acts as a control rod
                    to quench the autodischarge rate. Study the Rav and plan carefully.
                    A call to Panasonic engineers might be interesting. I too have many
                    questions.

                    Ken Martin



                    --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Noel P. Luneau" <nluneau@p...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Thanks Anil!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Just a couple of questions... :-)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > 1. Where are you buying your Panasonic NiMH batteries?
                    > 2. Do you have a charging profile for your charger for the NiMH
                    > batteries?
                    > 3. Are you going to program your charger and controller?
                    > 4. Are you going to modify your battery boxes or build new ones?
                    > 5. When you say passive, do you mean with or without battery box
                    > fans?
                    > 6. What sort of BTMS are you going to use?
                    >
                    > Do you have a Force?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > So many more questions :-)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Thanks,
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Noel
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    >
                    > From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com [mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com]
                    > On Behalf Of Anil Paryani
                    > Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2005 9:19 PM
                    > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: RE: [solectria_ev] Re: Who has an NiMH Force?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I am planning on putting in Panasonic NiMh batteries (used in the EV
                    > Plus and RAV-4 EVs). I am going to use passive air cooling. These
                    > batteries are much more efficient than Ovonics. Under 25C ambient
                    > charging (with a decent cooling system) the coulombic efficiency is
                    > about 105%.
                    >
                    > As far as the Ovonics goes, typically at 25C, 110% of overcharge is
                    > needed. It is much worst at temperatures above this and practically
                    > unchargeable at temperatures around 35C.
                    >
                    > To improve your efficiency for the Ovonic battery packs, I recommend
                    > reducing you charge current which reduces the i2r heat and reaction
                    > heat when the battery temperature is above the 25C rate.
                    >
                    > "Noel P. Luneau" <nluneau@p...> wrote: Hi Jim,
                    >
                    > I was thinking that passive cooling while driving, using directed air,
                    > would save some of the energy required to cool the Ovonics. I was
                    > also
                    > under the impression that the critical time to have adequate cooling
                    > was
                    > during the charging cycle.
                    >
                    > What do you think?
                    >
                    > Noel
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    >
                    > From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                    > [mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com]
                    > On Behalf Of Jim Coate
                    > Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 5:41 PM
                    > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Re: Who has an NiMH Force?
                    >
                    >
                    > It's taken me a while to catch on that Solectria was originally using
                    > these particular NiMH batteries... they were used by GM in the OEM
                    > S-10e
                    >
                    > trucks in addition to the EV1's.
                    >
                    > One thing to be aware of is that they generate a lot of heat,
                    > especially
                    >
                    > during charging... which you probably realize since you are talking
                    > about active cooling. The hidden catch is that this greatly increases
                    > the power (KWH) used per mile as measured 'from the outlet'.
                    >
                    > According to published reports of the S-10 with these batteries
                    > <http://www.evbones.com/s10Report2.pdf>, the batteries themselves
                    > require about an extra 33%, or "over charge" to get full again. As in
                    > you'll put 1.33 times as much into the batteries as you get out. And
                    > the
                    >
                    > bigger deal (to me) is that it takes just over *twice* as much from
                    > the
                    > AC power source as you get back out of the batteries in the end. As
                    > best
                    >
                    > as I can tell, this lost power goes to cooling the battery pack. For
                    > comparison, this is 1.5 times as much power from the outlet per mile
                    > traveled as the lead-acid S-10. And yes, I have a NiMH S-10... ironic,
                    > eh?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Noel P. Luneau wrote:
                    > > Hi Ralph,
                    > >
                    > > I bought the batteries awhile in what I think was a one time sale.
                    > However, Victor from MetricMind announced that he can get a bunch and
                    > is
                    > looking at selling them for 170 each. The batteries are the Ovonic
                    > batteries that were used in the EV-1, and the Force. 13.2v and 85 Ah.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    >
                    > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                    >
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                    > * Visit your group "solectria_ev
                    > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/solectria_ev> " on the web.
                    >
                    > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > solectria_ev-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > <mailto:solectria_ev-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                    >
                    > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                    > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                    > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/solectria_ev> " on the web.
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                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Anil Paryani
                    Noel, My answers are below your questions. Noel P. Luneau wrote: Thanks Anil! Just a couple of questions... :-) 1. Where
                    Message 9 of 17 , Dec 1, 2005
                    View Source
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Noel,

                      My answers are below your questions.

                      "Noel P. Luneau" <nluneau@...> wrote: Thanks Anil!



                      Just a couple of questions... :-)



                      1. Where are you buying your Panasonic NiMH batteries?
                      I am not buying them. They are used.

                      2. Do you have a charging profile for your charger for the NiMH
                      batteries?

                      Panasonic batteries charge using a constant current or power until about 105% overcharge. This can be detected by a high delta temperature change over time

                      3. Are you going to program your charger and controller?

                      I am planning on it.
                      4. Are you going to modify your battery boxes or build new ones?
                      I am hoping to just modify the battery boxes. The Panasonic batteries are dimensionally smaller than the MK batteries and should fit without a problem.
                      5. When you say passive, do you mean with or without battery box
                      fans?
                      With a battery box fan.

                      6. What sort of BTMS are you going to use?
                      Well I work at AV (AeroVironment). So I am going to program our Battery Management System to tell the charger when to stop.

                      Do you have a Force?

                      Yes. It has a low speed acceleration problem now. I am suspecting I have a motor problem.


                      So many more questions :-)



                      Thanks,



                      Noel



                      ________________________________

                      From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com [mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com]
                      On Behalf Of Anil Paryani
                      Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2005 9:19 PM
                      To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [solectria_ev] Re: Who has an NiMH Force?



                      I am planning on putting in Panasonic NiMh batteries (used in the EV
                      Plus and RAV-4 EVs). I am going to use passive air cooling. These
                      batteries are much more efficient than Ovonics. Under 25C ambient
                      charging (with a decent cooling system) the coulombic efficiency is
                      about 105%.

                      As far as the Ovonics goes, typically at 25C, 110% of overcharge is
                      needed. It is much worst at temperatures above this and practically
                      unchargeable at temperatures around 35C.

                      To improve your efficiency for the Ovonic battery packs, I recommend
                      reducing you charge current which reduces the i2r heat and reaction
                      heat when the battery temperature is above the 25C rate.

                      "Noel P. Luneau" <nluneau@...> wrote: Hi Jim,

                      I was thinking that passive cooling while driving, using directed air,
                      would save some of the energy required to cool the Ovonics. I was
                      also
                      under the impression that the critical time to have adequate cooling
                      was
                      during the charging cycle.

                      What do you think?

                      Noel

                      ________________________________

                      From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com]
                      On Behalf Of Jim Coate
                      Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 5:41 PM
                      To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Re: Who has an NiMH Force?


                      It's taken me a while to catch on that Solectria was originally using
                      these particular NiMH batteries... they were used by GM in the OEM
                      S-10e

                      trucks in addition to the EV1's.

                      One thing to be aware of is that they generate a lot of heat,
                      especially

                      during charging... which you probably realize since you are talking
                      about active cooling. The hidden catch is that this greatly increases
                      the power (KWH) used per mile as measured 'from the outlet'.

                      According to published reports of the S-10 with these batteries
                      <http://www.evbones.com/s10Report2.pdf>, the batteries themselves
                      require about an extra 33%, or "over charge" to get full again. As in
                      you'll put 1.33 times as much into the batteries as you get out. And
                      the

                      bigger deal (to me) is that it takes just over *twice* as much from
                      the
                      AC power source as you get back out of the batteries in the end. As
                      best

                      as I can tell, this lost power goes to cooling the battery pack. For
                      comparison, this is 1.5 times as much power from the outlet per mile
                      traveled as the lead-acid S-10. And yes, I have a NiMH S-10... ironic,
                      eh?



                      Noel P. Luneau wrote:
                      > Hi Ralph,
                      >
                      > I bought the batteries awhile in what I think was a one time sale.
                      However, Victor from MetricMind announced that he can get a bunch and
                      is
                      looking at selling them for 170 each. The batteries are the Ovonic
                      batteries that were used in the EV-1, and the Force. 13.2v and 85 Ah.



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