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Who has an NiMH Force?

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  • Noel P. Luneau
    Hello, Just wondering who has an NiMH Force and where might you live. I m hoping to visit you, tear apart your car and take some pictures. Or just take some
    Message 1 of 17 , Oct 30, 2005
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      Hello,

      Just wondering who has an NiMH Force and where might you live.

      I'm hoping to visit you, tear apart your car and take some pictures. Or
      just take some pictures if you don't want your car ripped apart :) Or
      even better, trade my Lead-Acid parts for your NiMH parts (I know, dream
      on).

      Here is hoping that you live on the West Coast.

      Thanks,

      Noel L


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Tom Hudson
      Noel, do you have a line on some NiMH batteries? I m wondering because one of the guys who had a NiMH Force had to punt on the NiMHs because there were a
      Message 2 of 17 , Oct 31, 2005
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        Noel, do you have a line on some NiMH batteries? I'm wondering because
        one of the guys who had a NiMH Force had to punt on the NiMHs because
        there were a couple of bad modules and he couldn't get replacements. I
        think this was one of the NiMH Forces Solectria built, so they may have
        been earlier-generation battery modules that were only a limited
        production item. I'd like to know what direction you go -- Stephen
        Taylor has a set of lithium-ions in his Force and likes them; if NiMHs
        are available they could be another option.

        NiMH certainly has a potential for being a great range extender, please
        keep us posted on your findings!

        -Tom

        Noel P. Luneau wrote:

        >Hello,
        >
        >Just wondering who has an NiMH Force and where might you live.
        >
        >I'm hoping to visit you, tear apart your car and take some pictures. Or
        >just take some pictures if you don't want your car ripped apart :) Or
        >even better, trade my Lead-Acid parts for your NiMH parts (I know, dream
        >on).
        >
        >Here is hoping that you live on the West Coast.
        >
        >Thanks,
        >
        >Noel L
        >
        >
        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >

        --
        Thomas Hudson
        http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
        http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
        http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
        http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
        http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects
      • Noel P. Luneau
        Hi Tom, I have two sets of 15 which are enough for 8 to 10 years. I bought them off eBay. Do you know who replaced their battery boxes? I really need to have
        Message 3 of 17 , Oct 31, 2005
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          Hi Tom,

          I have two sets of 15 which are enough for 8 to 10 years. I bought them
          off eBay.

          Do you know who replaced their battery boxes? I really need to have a
          look at the Active cooling battery boxes. Azure has no more left.

          Thanks,

          Noel

          ________________________________

          From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com [mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com]
          On Behalf Of Tom Hudson
          Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 8:35 AM
          To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Who has an NiMH Force?


          Noel, do you have a line on some NiMH batteries? I'm wondering because
          one of the guys who had a NiMH Force had to punt on the NiMHs because
          there were a couple of bad modules and he couldn't get replacements. I
          think this was one of the NiMH Forces Solectria built, so they may have
          been earlier-generation battery modules that were only a limited
          production item. I'd like to know what direction you go -- Stephen
          Taylor has a set of lithium-ions in his Force and likes them; if NiMHs
          are available they could be another option.

          NiMH certainly has a potential for being a great range extender, please
          keep us posted on your findings!

          -Tom

          Noel P. Luneau wrote:

          >Hello,
          >
          >Just wondering who has an NiMH Force and where might you live.
          >
          >I'm hoping to visit you, tear apart your car and take some pictures.
          Or
          >just take some pictures if you don't want your car ripped apart :) Or
          >even better, trade my Lead-Acid parts for your NiMH parts (I know,
          dream
          >on).
          >
          >Here is hoping that you live on the West Coast.
          >
          >Thanks,
          >
          >Noel L
          >
          >
          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >

          --
          Thomas Hudson
          http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
          http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
          http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
          http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
          http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects




          ________________________________

          YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ralph Merwin
          Noel, Do you have a link to the batteries you bought on eBay? Are they Prius batteries or something with more capacity? As for boxes, maybe Azure has
          Message 4 of 17 , Oct 31, 2005
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            Noel,

            Do you have a link to the batteries you bought on eBay? Are they
            Prius batteries or something with more capacity?

            As for boxes, maybe Azure has engineering drawings they could copy?

            Ralph


            --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Noel P. Luneau" <nluneau@p...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Hi Tom,
            >
            > I have two sets of 15 which are enough for 8 to 10 years. I bought them
            > off eBay.
            >
            > Do you know who replaced their battery boxes? I really need to have a
            > look at the Active cooling battery boxes. Azure has no more left.
            >
            > Thanks,
            >
            > Noel
            >
            > ________________________________
            >
            > From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com [mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com]
            > On Behalf Of Tom Hudson
            > Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 8:35 AM
            > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Who has an NiMH Force?
            >
            >
            > Noel, do you have a line on some NiMH batteries? I'm wondering because
            > one of the guys who had a NiMH Force had to punt on the NiMHs because
            > there were a couple of bad modules and he couldn't get replacements. I
            > think this was one of the NiMH Forces Solectria built, so they may have
            > been earlier-generation battery modules that were only a limited
            > production item. I'd like to know what direction you go -- Stephen
            > Taylor has a set of lithium-ions in his Force and likes them; if NiMHs
            > are available they could be another option.
            >
            > NiMH certainly has a potential for being a great range extender, please
            > keep us posted on your findings!
            >
            > -Tom
            >
            > Noel P. Luneau wrote:
            >
            > >Hello,
            > >
            > >Just wondering who has an NiMH Force and where might you live.
            > >
            > >I'm hoping to visit you, tear apart your car and take some pictures.
            > Or
            > >just take some pictures if you don't want your car ripped apart :) Or
            > >even better, trade my Lead-Acid parts for your NiMH parts (I know,
            > dream
            > >on).
            > >
            > >Here is hoping that you live on the West Coast.
            > >
            > >Thanks,
            > >
            > >Noel L
            > >
            > >
            > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            > --
            > Thomas Hudson
            > http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
            > http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
            > http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
            > http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
            > http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            >
            > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
            >
            >
            >
            > * Visit your group "solectria_ev
            > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/solectria_ev> " on the web.
            >
            > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > solectria_ev-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > <mailto:solectria_ev-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
            >
            > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Noel P. Luneau
            Hi Ralph, I bought the batteries awhile in what I think was a one time sale. However, Victor from MetricMind announced that he can get a bunch and is looking
            Message 5 of 17 , Oct 31, 2005
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              Hi Ralph,

              I bought the batteries awhile in what I think was a one time sale. However, Victor from MetricMind announced that he can get a bunch and is looking at selling them for 170 each. The batteries are the Ovonic batteries that were used in the EV-1, and the Force. 13.2v and 85 Ah.

              The NIMh boxes from Don? were damaged in removal and scrapped. Azure is attempting to find the engineering drawings. As far as the BTMS is concerned, that is going to be the kicker.

              More conversations with Azure will be required.

              Noel L

              -----Original Message-----
              From: "Ralph Merwin"<prizmev@...>
              Sent: 10/31/05 12:02:10 PM
              To: "solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com"<solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: [solectria_ev] Re: Who has an NiMH Force?


              Noel,

              Do you have a link to the batteries you bought on eBay? Are they
              Prius batteries or something with more capacity?

              As for boxes, maybe Azure has engineering drawings they could copy?

              Ralph


              --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Noel P. Luneau" <nluneau@p...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Hi Tom,
              >
              > I have two sets of 15 which are enough for 8 to 10 years. I bought them
              > off eBay.
              >
              > Do you know who replaced their battery boxes? I really need to have a
              > look at the Active cooling battery boxes. Azure has no more left.
              >
              > Thanks,
              >
              > Noel
              >
              > ________________________________
              >
              > From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com [mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com]
              > On Behalf Of Tom Hudson
              > Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 8:35 AM
              > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Who has an NiMH Force?
              >
              >
              > Noel, do you have a line on some NiMH batteries? I'm wondering because
              > one of the guys who had a NiMH Force had to punt on the NiMHs because
              > there wer



              [Message truncated. Tap Edit->Mark for Download to get remaining portion.]
            • Jim Coate
              It s taken me a while to catch on that Solectria was originally using these particular NiMH batteries... they were used by GM in the OEM S-10e trucks in
              Message 6 of 17 , Oct 31, 2005
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                It's taken me a while to catch on that Solectria was originally using
                these particular NiMH batteries... they were used by GM in the OEM S-10e
                trucks in addition to the EV1's.

                One thing to be aware of is that they generate a lot of heat, especially
                during charging... which you probably realize since you are talking
                about active cooling. The hidden catch is that this greatly increases
                the power (KWH) used per mile as measured 'from the outlet'.

                According to published reports of the S-10 with these batteries
                <http://www.evbones.com/s10Report2.pdf>, the batteries themselves
                require about an extra 33%, or "over charge" to get full again. As in
                you'll put 1.33 times as much into the batteries as you get out. And the
                bigger deal (to me) is that it takes just over *twice* as much from the
                AC power source as you get back out of the batteries in the end. As best
                as I can tell, this lost power goes to cooling the battery pack. For
                comparison, this is 1.5 times as much power from the outlet per mile
                traveled as the lead-acid S-10. And yes, I have a NiMH S-10... ironic, eh?



                Noel P. Luneau wrote:
                > Hi Ralph,
                >
                > I bought the batteries awhile in what I think was a one time sale. However, Victor from MetricMind announced that he can get a bunch and is looking at selling them for 170 each. The batteries are the Ovonic batteries that were used in the EV-1, and the Force. 13.2v and 85 Ah.
              • Don Buckshot
                I m not sure if I am the Don being referred to, however I did have Solectria convert my NiMH Force to Pba a couple of years ago. They didn t mention the
                Message 7 of 17 , Oct 31, 2005
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                  I'm not sure if I am the Don being referred to, however I did have
                  Solectria convert my NiMH Force to Pba a couple of years ago. They
                  didn't mention the disposition of the NiHM battery boxes and blower
                  setup, but they did keep them. I have the batteries and yes mine were
                  part of the total of only 14 Forces they built using them. They were a
                  special product by Ovonics and the replacement Ovonics offered me were
                  $1000 each. They said they would lose money on the deal at that price. I
                  chose to convert to Pba instead. The car has performed perfectly since.
                  It now has a new owner who is delighted with it and drives every day as
                  we did.
                  Don Buckshot
                  Kansas City


                  Noel P. Luneau wrote:

                  > Hi Ralph,
                  >
                  > I bought the batteries awhile in what I think was a one time sale. However, Victor from MetricMind announced that he can get a bunch and is looking at selling them for 170 each. The batteries are the Ovonic batteries that were used in the EV-1, and the Force. 13.2v and 85 Ah.
                  >
                  > The NIMh boxes from Don? were damaged in removal and scrapped. Azure is attempting to find the engineering drawings. As far as the BTMS is concerned, that is going to be the kicker.
                  >
                  > More conversations with Azure will be required.
                  >
                  > Noel L
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: "Ralph Merwin"<prizmev@...>
                  > Sent: 10/31/05 12:02:10 PM
                  > To: "solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com"<solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Subject: [solectria_ev] Re: Who has an NiMH Force?
                  >
                  >
                  > Noel,
                  >
                  > Do you have a link to the batteries you bought on eBay? Are they
                  > Prius batteries or something with more capacity?
                  >
                  > As for boxes, maybe Azure has engineering drawings they could copy?
                  >
                  > Ralph
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Noel P. Luneau" <nluneau@p...>
                  > wrote:
                  >
                  >>Hi Tom,
                  >>
                  >>I have two sets of 15 which are enough for 8 to 10 years. I bought them
                  >>off eBay.
                  >>
                  >>Do you know who replaced their battery boxes? I really need to have a
                  >>look at the Active cooling battery boxes. Azure has no more left.
                  >>
                  >>Thanks,
                  >>
                  >>Noel
                  >>
                  >>________________________________
                  >>
                  >>From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com [mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com]
                  >>On Behalf Of Tom Hudson
                  >>Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 8:35 AM
                  >>To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                  >>Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Who has an NiMH Force?
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>Noel, do you have a line on some NiMH batteries? I'm wondering because
                  >>one of the guys who had a NiMH Force had to punt on the NiMHs because
                  >>there wer
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Message truncated. Tap Edit->Mark for Download to get remaining portion.]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Noel P. Luneau
                  Hi Jim, I was thinking that passive cooling while driving, using directed air, would save some of the energy required to cool the Ovonics. I was also under
                  Message 8 of 17 , Oct 31, 2005
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                    Hi Jim,

                    I was thinking that passive cooling while driving, using directed air,
                    would save some of the energy required to cool the Ovonics. I was also
                    under the impression that the critical time to have adequate cooling was
                    during the charging cycle.

                    What do you think?

                    Noel

                    ________________________________

                    From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com [mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com]
                    On Behalf Of Jim Coate
                    Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 5:41 PM
                    To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Re: Who has an NiMH Force?


                    It's taken me a while to catch on that Solectria was originally using
                    these particular NiMH batteries... they were used by GM in the OEM S-10e

                    trucks in addition to the EV1's.

                    One thing to be aware of is that they generate a lot of heat, especially

                    during charging... which you probably realize since you are talking
                    about active cooling. The hidden catch is that this greatly increases
                    the power (KWH) used per mile as measured 'from the outlet'.

                    According to published reports of the S-10 with these batteries
                    <http://www.evbones.com/s10Report2.pdf>, the batteries themselves
                    require about an extra 33%, or "over charge" to get full again. As in
                    you'll put 1.33 times as much into the batteries as you get out. And the

                    bigger deal (to me) is that it takes just over *twice* as much from the
                    AC power source as you get back out of the batteries in the end. As best

                    as I can tell, this lost power goes to cooling the battery pack. For
                    comparison, this is 1.5 times as much power from the outlet per mile
                    traveled as the lead-acid S-10. And yes, I have a NiMH S-10... ironic,
                    eh?



                    Noel P. Luneau wrote:
                    > Hi Ralph,
                    >
                    > I bought the batteries awhile in what I think was a one time sale.
                    However, Victor from MetricMind announced that he can get a bunch and is
                    looking at selling them for 170 each. The batteries are the Ovonic
                    batteries that were used in the EV-1, and the Force. 13.2v and 85 Ah.



                    ________________________________

                    YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



                    * Visit your group "solectria_ev
                    <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/solectria_ev> " on the web.

                    * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                    <mailto:solectria_ev-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • theoldcars@aol.com
                    Having passive cooling while driving would be good but I don t believe it would be enough by itself to always keep them from over heating while driving. A
                    Message 9 of 17 , Nov 1, 2005
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                      Having passive cooling while driving would be good but I don't believe it
                      would be enough by itself to always keep them from over heating while driving.

                      A liquid cooling system would be more efficient.

                      Don Blazer

                      In a message dated 10/31/2005 9:01:35 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                      nluneau@... writes:

                      Hi Jim,

                      I was thinking that passive cooling while driving, using directed air,
                      would save some of the energy required to cool the Ovonics. I was also
                      under the impression that the critical time to have adequate cooling was
                      during the charging cycle.

                      What do you think?

                      Noel






                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Stephen Taylor
                      My Toyota made RAV4 EV with NiMH batteries uses fans continuously during charging to cool the batteries and also turns on while driving if any of the
                      Message 10 of 17 , Nov 1, 2005
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                        My Toyota made RAV4 EV with NiMH batteries uses fans continuously during charging to cool the batteries and also turns on while driving if any of the temperature sensors reach 100F. Many of the RAV4 EV owners don't believe even that is enough. For instance if the car isn't charging and it isn't running and the batteries are above 100F the fans don't run, but the batteries sit there at too high a temperature.

                        So it would appear with NiMH more cooling is best.

                        Stephen Taylor

                        theoldcars@... wrote:

                        Having passive cooling while driving would be good but I don't believe it
                        would be enough by itself to always keep them from over heating while driving.

                        A liquid cooling system would be more efficient.

                        Don Blazer

                        In a message dated 10/31/2005 9:01:35 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                        nluneau@... writes:

                        Hi Jim,

                        I was thinking that passive cooling while driving, using directed air,
                        would save some of the energy required to cool the Ovonics. I was also
                        under the impression that the critical time to have adequate cooling was
                        during the charging cycle.

                        What do you think?

                        Noel






                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                      • Adam Kuehn
                        While looking into acquiring a NIMH force, I did some pretty good research on the batteries. I decided that there was no way I could safely (for the
                        Message 11 of 17 , Nov 1, 2005
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                          While looking into acquiring a NIMH force, I did some pretty good
                          research on the batteries. I decided that there was no way I could
                          safely (for the batteries) operate a NIMH vehicle in North Carolina.
                          It is simply impossible to keep the cells cool enough during charging
                          and under load during the summers here. Personally, I'm not sure
                          even a liquid system would be enough. I'm not sure where you are,
                          exactly, but if it regularly hits the mid-to-high-90s there, I would
                          seriously consider some other battery chemistry. I certainly
                          wouldn't use passive cooling during the summer pretty much anywhere
                          south of Canada.

                          Just my two cents,

                          -Adam Kuehn

                          >My Toyota made RAV4 EV with NiMH batteries uses fans continuously
                          >during charging to cool the batteries and also turns on while
                          >driving if any of the temperature sensors reach 100F. Many of the
                          >RAV4 EV owners don't believe even that is enough. For instance if
                          >the car isn't charging and it isn't running and the batteries are
                          >above 100F the fans don't run, but the batteries sit there at too
                          >high a temperature.
                          >
                          >So it would appear with NiMH more cooling is best.
                          >
                          >Stephen Taylor
                          >
                          >theoldcars@... wrote:
                          >
                          >Having passive cooling while driving would be good but I don't believe it
                          >would be enough by itself to always keep them from over heating
                          >while driving.
                          >
                          >A liquid cooling system would be more efficient.
                          >
                          >Don Blazer
                          >
                          >In a message dated 10/31/2005 9:01:35 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                          >nluneau@... writes:
                          >
                          >Hi Jim,
                          >
                          >I was thinking that passive cooling while driving, using directed air,
                          >would save some of the energy required to cool the Ovonics. I was also
                          >under the impression that the critical time to have adequate cooling was
                          >during the charging cycle.
                          >
                          >What do you think?
                          >
                          >Noel
                          >
                        • Rex Allison
                          Noel, Besides already having the NIMH batteries on hand, can I ask what your motivation is to not stick with Pb batteries. Do you have an exceptionally long
                          Message 12 of 17 , Nov 1, 2005
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                            Noel,
                            Besides already having the NIMH batteries on hand, can
                            I ask what your motivation is to not stick with Pb
                            batteries. Do you have an exceptionally long commute?

                            Another data point I generally get 1.5Ahr to the mile
                            always driving in Normal mode with lots of stop and go
                            driving, flat grade, I typically use 12 Ahr between
                            recharges and try to keep my maximum discharge to 25
                            Ahr. I also keep the regen off below 8 to 10 Ahr
                            because of the squeeling from the regen current limit.
                            Rex

                            --- Adam Kuehn <akuehn@...> wrote:

                            > While looking into acquiring a NIMH force, I did
                            > some pretty good
                            > research on the batteries. I decided that there was
                            > no way I could
                            > safely (for the batteries) operate a NIMH vehicle in
                            > North Carolina.
                            > It is simply impossible to keep the cells cool
                            > enough during charging
                            > and under load during the summers here. Personally,
                            > I'm not sure
                            > even a liquid system would be enough. I'm not sure
                            > where you are,
                            > exactly, but if it regularly hits the
                            > mid-to-high-90s there, I would
                            > seriously consider some other battery chemistry. I
                            > certainly
                            > wouldn't use passive cooling during the summer
                            > pretty much anywhere
                            > south of Canada.
                            >
                            > Just my two cents,
                            >
                            > -Adam Kuehn
                            >
                            > >My Toyota made RAV4 EV with NiMH batteries uses
                            > fans continuously
                            > >during charging to cool the batteries and also
                            > turns on while
                            > >driving if any of the temperature sensors reach
                            > 100F. Many of the
                            > >RAV4 EV owners don't believe even that is enough.
                            > For instance if
                            > >the car isn't charging and it isn't running and the
                            > batteries are
                            > >above 100F the fans don't run, but the batteries
                            > sit there at too
                            > >high a temperature.
                            > >
                            > >So it would appear with NiMH more cooling is best.
                            > >
                            > >Stephen Taylor
                            > >
                            > >theoldcars@... wrote:
                            > >
                            > >Having passive cooling while driving would be good
                            > but I don't believe it
                            > >would be enough by itself to always keep them from
                            > over heating
                            > >while driving.
                            > >
                            > >A liquid cooling system would be more efficient.
                            > >
                            > >Don Blazer
                            > >
                            > >In a message dated 10/31/2005 9:01:35 PM Pacific
                            > Standard Time,
                            > >nluneau@... writes:
                            > >
                            > >Hi Jim,
                            > >
                            > >I was thinking that passive cooling while driving,
                            > using directed air,
                            > >would save some of the energy required to cool the
                            > Ovonics. I was also
                            > >under the impression that the critical time to have
                            > adequate cooling was
                            > >during the charging cycle.
                            > >
                            > >What do you think?
                            > >
                            > >Noel
                            > >
                            >




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                          • Noel P. Luneau
                            Hi Rex, My commute on some days will be 21 miles each with no opportunity charging available. 15 NiMH batteries will get me there and back. Noel
                            Message 13 of 17 , Nov 1, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi Rex,

                              My commute on some days will be 21 miles each with no opportunity
                              charging available. 15 NiMH batteries will get me there and back.

                              Noel

                              ________________________________

                              From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com [mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com]
                              On Behalf Of Rex Allison
                              Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 8:21 AM
                              To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Re: Who has an NiMH Force?


                              Noel,
                              Besides already having the NIMH batteries on hand, can
                              I ask what your motivation is to not stick with Pb
                              batteries. Do you have an exceptionally long commute?

                              Another data point I generally get 1.5Ahr to the mile
                              always driving in Normal mode with lots of stop and go
                              driving, flat grade, I typically use 12 Ahr between
                              recharges and try to keep my maximum discharge to 25
                              Ahr. I also keep the regen off below 8 to 10 Ahr
                              because of the squeeling from the regen current limit.
                              Rex

                              --- Adam Kuehn <akuehn@...> wrote:

                              > While looking into acquiring a NIMH force, I did
                              > some pretty good
                              > research on the batteries. I decided that there was
                              > no way I could
                              > safely (for the batteries) operate a NIMH vehicle in
                              > North Carolina.
                              > It is simply impossible to keep the cells cool
                              > enough during charging
                              > and under load during the summers here. Personally,
                              > I'm not sure
                              > even a liquid system would be enough. I'm not sure
                              > where you are,
                              > exactly, but if it regularly hits the
                              > mid-to-high-90s there, I would
                              > seriously consider some other battery chemistry. I
                              > certainly
                              > wouldn't use passive cooling during the summer
                              > pretty much anywhere
                              > south of Canada.
                              >
                              > Just my two cents,
                              >
                              > -Adam Kuehn
                              >
                              > >My Toyota made RAV4 EV with NiMH batteries uses
                              > fans continuously
                              > >during charging to cool the batteries and also
                              > turns on while
                              > >driving if any of the temperature sensors reach
                              > 100F. Many of the
                              > >RAV4 EV owners don't believe even that is enough.
                              > For instance if
                              > >the car isn't charging and it isn't running and the
                              > batteries are
                              > >above 100F the fans don't run, but the batteries
                              > sit there at too
                              > >high a temperature.
                              > >
                              > >So it would appear with NiMH more cooling is best.
                              > >
                              > >Stephen Taylor
                              > >
                              > >theoldcars@... wrote:
                              > >
                              > >Having passive cooling while driving would be good
                              > but I don't believe it
                              > >would be enough by itself to always keep them from
                              > over heating
                              > >while driving.
                              > >
                              > >A liquid cooling system would be more efficient.
                              > >
                              > >Don Blazer
                              > >
                              > >In a message dated 10/31/2005 9:01:35 PM Pacific
                              > Standard Time,
                              > >nluneau@... writes:
                              > >
                              > >Hi Jim,
                              > >
                              > >I was thinking that passive cooling while driving,
                              > using directed air,
                              > >would save some of the energy required to cool the
                              > Ovonics. I was also
                              > >under the impression that the critical time to have
                              > adequate cooling was
                              > >during the charging cycle.
                              > >
                              > >What do you think?
                              > >
                              > >Noel
                              > >
                              >




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                            • Anil Paryani
                              I am planning on putting in Panasonic NiMh batteries (used in the EV Plus and RAV-4 EVs). I am going to use passive air cooling. These batteries are much
                              Message 14 of 17 , Nov 27, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I am planning on putting in Panasonic NiMh batteries (used in the EV Plus and RAV-4 EVs). I am going to use passive air cooling. These batteries are much more efficient than Ovonics. Under 25C ambient charging (with a decent cooling system) the coulombic efficiency is about 105%.

                                As far as the Ovonics goes, typically at 25C, 110% of overcharge is needed. It is much worst at temperatures above this and practically unchargeable at temperatures around 35C.

                                To improve your efficiency for the Ovonic battery packs, I recommend reducing you charge current which reduces the i2r heat and reaction heat when the battery temperature is above the 25C rate.

                                "Noel P. Luneau" <nluneau@...> wrote: Hi Jim,

                                I was thinking that passive cooling while driving, using directed air,
                                would save some of the energy required to cool the Ovonics. I was also
                                under the impression that the critical time to have adequate cooling was
                                during the charging cycle.

                                What do you think?

                                Noel

                                ________________________________

                                From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com [mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com]
                                On Behalf Of Jim Coate
                                Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 5:41 PM
                                To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Re: Who has an NiMH Force?


                                It's taken me a while to catch on that Solectria was originally using
                                these particular NiMH batteries... they were used by GM in the OEM S-10e

                                trucks in addition to the EV1's.

                                One thing to be aware of is that they generate a lot of heat, especially

                                during charging... which you probably realize since you are talking
                                about active cooling. The hidden catch is that this greatly increases
                                the power (KWH) used per mile as measured 'from the outlet'.

                                According to published reports of the S-10 with these batteries
                                <http://www.evbones.com/s10Report2.pdf>, the batteries themselves
                                require about an extra 33%, or "over charge" to get full again. As in
                                you'll put 1.33 times as much into the batteries as you get out. And the

                                bigger deal (to me) is that it takes just over *twice* as much from the
                                AC power source as you get back out of the batteries in the end. As best

                                as I can tell, this lost power goes to cooling the battery pack. For
                                comparison, this is 1.5 times as much power from the outlet per mile
                                traveled as the lead-acid S-10. And yes, I have a NiMH S-10... ironic,
                                eh?



                                Noel P. Luneau wrote:
                                > Hi Ralph,
                                >
                                > I bought the batteries awhile in what I think was a one time sale.
                                However, Victor from MetricMind announced that he can get a bunch and is
                                looking at selling them for 170 each. The batteries are the Ovonic
                                batteries that were used in the EV-1, and the Force. 13.2v and 85 Ah.



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                              • Noel P. Luneau
                                Thanks Anil! Just a couple of questions... :-) 1. Where are you buying your Panasonic NiMH batteries? 2. Do you have a charging profile for your charger for
                                Message 15 of 17 , Nov 27, 2005
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Thanks Anil!



                                  Just a couple of questions... :-)



                                  1. Where are you buying your Panasonic NiMH batteries?
                                  2. Do you have a charging profile for your charger for the NiMH
                                  batteries?
                                  3. Are you going to program your charger and controller?
                                  4. Are you going to modify your battery boxes or build new ones?
                                  5. When you say passive, do you mean with or without battery box
                                  fans?
                                  6. What sort of BTMS are you going to use?

                                  Do you have a Force?



                                  So many more questions :-)



                                  Thanks,



                                  Noel



                                  ________________________________

                                  From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com [mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com]
                                  On Behalf Of Anil Paryani
                                  Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2005 9:19 PM
                                  To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: RE: [solectria_ev] Re: Who has an NiMH Force?



                                  I am planning on putting in Panasonic NiMh batteries (used in the EV
                                  Plus and RAV-4 EVs). I am going to use passive air cooling. These
                                  batteries are much more efficient than Ovonics. Under 25C ambient
                                  charging (with a decent cooling system) the coulombic efficiency is
                                  about 105%.

                                  As far as the Ovonics goes, typically at 25C, 110% of overcharge is
                                  needed. It is much worst at temperatures above this and practically
                                  unchargeable at temperatures around 35C.

                                  To improve your efficiency for the Ovonic battery packs, I recommend
                                  reducing you charge current which reduces the i2r heat and reaction
                                  heat when the battery temperature is above the 25C rate.

                                  "Noel P. Luneau" <nluneau@...> wrote: Hi Jim,

                                  I was thinking that passive cooling while driving, using directed air,
                                  would save some of the energy required to cool the Ovonics. I was
                                  also
                                  under the impression that the critical time to have adequate cooling
                                  was
                                  during the charging cycle.

                                  What do you think?

                                  Noel

                                  ________________________________

                                  From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                  [mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com]
                                  On Behalf Of Jim Coate
                                  Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 5:41 PM
                                  To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Re: Who has an NiMH Force?


                                  It's taken me a while to catch on that Solectria was originally using
                                  these particular NiMH batteries... they were used by GM in the OEM
                                  S-10e

                                  trucks in addition to the EV1's.

                                  One thing to be aware of is that they generate a lot of heat,
                                  especially

                                  during charging... which you probably realize since you are talking
                                  about active cooling. The hidden catch is that this greatly increases
                                  the power (KWH) used per mile as measured 'from the outlet'.

                                  According to published reports of the S-10 with these batteries
                                  <http://www.evbones.com/s10Report2.pdf>, the batteries themselves
                                  require about an extra 33%, or "over charge" to get full again. As in
                                  you'll put 1.33 times as much into the batteries as you get out. And
                                  the

                                  bigger deal (to me) is that it takes just over *twice* as much from
                                  the
                                  AC power source as you get back out of the batteries in the end. As
                                  best

                                  as I can tell, this lost power goes to cooling the battery pack. For
                                  comparison, this is 1.5 times as much power from the outlet per mile
                                  traveled as the lead-acid S-10. And yes, I have a NiMH S-10... ironic,
                                  eh?



                                  Noel P. Luneau wrote:
                                  > Hi Ralph,
                                  >
                                  > I bought the batteries awhile in what I think was a one time sale.
                                  However, Victor from MetricMind announced that he can get a bunch and
                                  is
                                  looking at selling them for 170 each. The batteries are the Ovonic
                                  batteries that were used in the EV-1, and the Force. 13.2v and 85 Ah.



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                                • laminar1314
                                  My Rav has a fairly sophisticated battery cooling system. When I looked into putting the Panasonics in my Force, it became apparent why. NiMH has a high
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Nov 28, 2005
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    My Rav has a fairly sophisticated battery cooling system. When I
                                    looked into putting the Panasonics in my Force, it became apparent
                                    why. NiMH has a high auto-discharge rate which begins immediately
                                    after a full charge. This is a temperature dependant exothermic
                                    reaction. The rate of discharge increases as temperature goes up.
                                    Thus a "runaway" reaction is possible. Cooling acts as a control rod
                                    to quench the autodischarge rate. Study the Rav and plan carefully.
                                    A call to Panasonic engineers might be interesting. I too have many
                                    questions.

                                    Ken Martin



                                    --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "Noel P. Luneau" <nluneau@p...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Thanks Anil!
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Just a couple of questions... :-)
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > 1. Where are you buying your Panasonic NiMH batteries?
                                    > 2. Do you have a charging profile for your charger for the NiMH
                                    > batteries?
                                    > 3. Are you going to program your charger and controller?
                                    > 4. Are you going to modify your battery boxes or build new ones?
                                    > 5. When you say passive, do you mean with or without battery box
                                    > fans?
                                    > 6. What sort of BTMS are you going to use?
                                    >
                                    > Do you have a Force?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > So many more questions :-)
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Thanks,
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Noel
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ________________________________
                                    >
                                    > From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com [mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com]
                                    > On Behalf Of Anil Paryani
                                    > Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2005 9:19 PM
                                    > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: RE: [solectria_ev] Re: Who has an NiMH Force?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I am planning on putting in Panasonic NiMh batteries (used in the EV
                                    > Plus and RAV-4 EVs). I am going to use passive air cooling. These
                                    > batteries are much more efficient than Ovonics. Under 25C ambient
                                    > charging (with a decent cooling system) the coulombic efficiency is
                                    > about 105%.
                                    >
                                    > As far as the Ovonics goes, typically at 25C, 110% of overcharge is
                                    > needed. It is much worst at temperatures above this and practically
                                    > unchargeable at temperatures around 35C.
                                    >
                                    > To improve your efficiency for the Ovonic battery packs, I recommend
                                    > reducing you charge current which reduces the i2r heat and reaction
                                    > heat when the battery temperature is above the 25C rate.
                                    >
                                    > "Noel P. Luneau" <nluneau@p...> wrote: Hi Jim,
                                    >
                                    > I was thinking that passive cooling while driving, using directed air,
                                    > would save some of the energy required to cool the Ovonics. I was
                                    > also
                                    > under the impression that the critical time to have adequate cooling
                                    > was
                                    > during the charging cycle.
                                    >
                                    > What do you think?
                                    >
                                    > Noel
                                    >
                                    > ________________________________
                                    >
                                    > From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                    > [mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com]
                                    > On Behalf Of Jim Coate
                                    > Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 5:41 PM
                                    > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Re: Who has an NiMH Force?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > It's taken me a while to catch on that Solectria was originally using
                                    > these particular NiMH batteries... they were used by GM in the OEM
                                    > S-10e
                                    >
                                    > trucks in addition to the EV1's.
                                    >
                                    > One thing to be aware of is that they generate a lot of heat,
                                    > especially
                                    >
                                    > during charging... which you probably realize since you are talking
                                    > about active cooling. The hidden catch is that this greatly increases
                                    > the power (KWH) used per mile as measured 'from the outlet'.
                                    >
                                    > According to published reports of the S-10 with these batteries
                                    > <http://www.evbones.com/s10Report2.pdf>, the batteries themselves
                                    > require about an extra 33%, or "over charge" to get full again. As in
                                    > you'll put 1.33 times as much into the batteries as you get out. And
                                    > the
                                    >
                                    > bigger deal (to me) is that it takes just over *twice* as much from
                                    > the
                                    > AC power source as you get back out of the batteries in the end. As
                                    > best
                                    >
                                    > as I can tell, this lost power goes to cooling the battery pack. For
                                    > comparison, this is 1.5 times as much power from the outlet per mile
                                    > traveled as the lead-acid S-10. And yes, I have a NiMH S-10... ironic,
                                    > eh?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Noel P. Luneau wrote:
                                    > > Hi Ralph,
                                    > >
                                    > > I bought the batteries awhile in what I think was a one time sale.
                                    > However, Victor from MetricMind announced that he can get a bunch and
                                    > is
                                    > looking at selling them for 170 each. The batteries are the Ovonic
                                    > batteries that were used in the EV-1, and the Force. 13.2v and 85 Ah.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ________________________________
                                    >
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                                    > r+cover&w5=Electric+car&w6=Alternative+fuels&c=6&s=144&.sig=uzSFHwzw1Vj0
                                    > lVmz25vKiA>
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                                    > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Electric+car&w1=Automotive+car+part
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                                  • Anil Paryani
                                    Noel, My answers are below your questions. Noel P. Luneau wrote: Thanks Anil! Just a couple of questions... :-) 1. Where
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Dec 1, 2005
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Noel,

                                      My answers are below your questions.

                                      "Noel P. Luneau" <nluneau@...> wrote: Thanks Anil!



                                      Just a couple of questions... :-)



                                      1. Where are you buying your Panasonic NiMH batteries?
                                      I am not buying them. They are used.

                                      2. Do you have a charging profile for your charger for the NiMH
                                      batteries?

                                      Panasonic batteries charge using a constant current or power until about 105% overcharge. This can be detected by a high delta temperature change over time

                                      3. Are you going to program your charger and controller?

                                      I am planning on it.
                                      4. Are you going to modify your battery boxes or build new ones?
                                      I am hoping to just modify the battery boxes. The Panasonic batteries are dimensionally smaller than the MK batteries and should fit without a problem.
                                      5. When you say passive, do you mean with or without battery box
                                      fans?
                                      With a battery box fan.

                                      6. What sort of BTMS are you going to use?
                                      Well I work at AV (AeroVironment). So I am going to program our Battery Management System to tell the charger when to stop.

                                      Do you have a Force?

                                      Yes. It has a low speed acceleration problem now. I am suspecting I have a motor problem.


                                      So many more questions :-)



                                      Thanks,



                                      Noel



                                      ________________________________

                                      From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com [mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com]
                                      On Behalf Of Anil Paryani
                                      Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2005 9:19 PM
                                      To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: RE: [solectria_ev] Re: Who has an NiMH Force?



                                      I am planning on putting in Panasonic NiMh batteries (used in the EV
                                      Plus and RAV-4 EVs). I am going to use passive air cooling. These
                                      batteries are much more efficient than Ovonics. Under 25C ambient
                                      charging (with a decent cooling system) the coulombic efficiency is
                                      about 105%.

                                      As far as the Ovonics goes, typically at 25C, 110% of overcharge is
                                      needed. It is much worst at temperatures above this and practically
                                      unchargeable at temperatures around 35C.

                                      To improve your efficiency for the Ovonic battery packs, I recommend
                                      reducing you charge current which reduces the i2r heat and reaction
                                      heat when the battery temperature is above the 25C rate.

                                      "Noel P. Luneau" <nluneau@...> wrote: Hi Jim,

                                      I was thinking that passive cooling while driving, using directed air,
                                      would save some of the energy required to cool the Ovonics. I was
                                      also
                                      under the impression that the critical time to have adequate cooling
                                      was
                                      during the charging cycle.

                                      What do you think?

                                      Noel

                                      ________________________________

                                      From: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                      [mailto:solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com]
                                      On Behalf Of Jim Coate
                                      Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 5:41 PM
                                      To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] Re: Who has an NiMH Force?


                                      It's taken me a while to catch on that Solectria was originally using
                                      these particular NiMH batteries... they were used by GM in the OEM
                                      S-10e

                                      trucks in addition to the EV1's.

                                      One thing to be aware of is that they generate a lot of heat,
                                      especially

                                      during charging... which you probably realize since you are talking
                                      about active cooling. The hidden catch is that this greatly increases
                                      the power (KWH) used per mile as measured 'from the outlet'.

                                      According to published reports of the S-10 with these batteries
                                      <http://www.evbones.com/s10Report2.pdf>, the batteries themselves
                                      require about an extra 33%, or "over charge" to get full again. As in
                                      you'll put 1.33 times as much into the batteries as you get out. And
                                      the

                                      bigger deal (to me) is that it takes just over *twice* as much from
                                      the
                                      AC power source as you get back out of the batteries in the end. As
                                      best

                                      as I can tell, this lost power goes to cooling the battery pack. For
                                      comparison, this is 1.5 times as much power from the outlet per mile
                                      traveled as the lead-acid S-10. And yes, I have a NiMH S-10... ironic,
                                      eh?



                                      Noel P. Luneau wrote:
                                      > Hi Ralph,
                                      >
                                      > I bought the batteries awhile in what I think was a one time sale.
                                      However, Victor from MetricMind announced that he can get a bunch and
                                      is
                                      looking at selling them for 170 each. The batteries are the Ovonic
                                      batteries that were used in the EV-1, and the Force. 13.2v and 85 Ah.



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