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RE: [force_ev] Valence Batteries

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  • Noel P. Luneau
    Hi Phil, Let us know how you progress with having Azure reprogram your charger and controller. I m looking at having them reprogram mine to NiMH. What are
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 11, 2005
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      Hi Phil,

      Let us know how you progress with having Azure reprogram your charger
      and controller. I'm looking at having them reprogram mine to NiMH.

      What are your plans for a Battery Management System and thermal
      management for the Valence batteries?

      May I ask where your bought them, what model cells, how many cells and
      what you paid.

      Thanks so much,

      Noel L

      ________________________________

      From: force_ev@yahoogroups.com [mailto:force_ev@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of philipdayson
      Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 9:53 PM
      To: force_ev@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [force_ev] Valence Batteries


      My pack of Valence batteries should be arriving in a couple of weeks
      Could someone explain why the controller will apparently need to be
      reprogrammed in order to use these batteries

      Phil






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    • Stephen Taylor
      Philip What size and how many Valence Batteries are you putting in the car. What Tom says is true. Since I installed Valence Lithium Batteries in the late
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 11, 2005
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        Philip

        What size and how many Valence Batteries are you putting in the car.

        What Tom says is true. Since I installed Valence Lithium Batteries in the late winter let me ask you, what do you plan to do about charging? Are you going to use the Valence BMUs? If so you probably can't use your NLG4 or Solectria charger because the BMUs don't balance the batteries between themselves. Your going to need 4 Delta Q chargers each connected to the same batteries as each BMU. Essentailly each battery needs to be charged to between 13.8 and 14 volts and then float there too. If you have 4 BMUs you will find that the batteries in each BMU grouping may charge to different voltages thus the need to have 4 seperate chargers to make sure the groups are all equal.

        As to the controller, I don't know what the settings for lead acid controller actually are, but I think on the high end the lead acid numbers are no problem it may only be on the low end that any change really has to be made.

        Stephen Taylor

        Tom Hudson <tomhudson@...> wrote:
        Your battery charger may need to be reprogrammed in order to match the
        battery's charge profile -- Some batteries can take a higher finish
        charge, others can't. Your charger was probably programmed for
        Sonnenschein/Deka Dominators (essentially the same battery) which have a
        maximum voltage per battery of 14.1V. You'll need to check with Valence
        to see what their batteries require while charging. Using the wrong
        charger profile could damage them.

        The controller might need to be reprogrammed, though that's less likely
        than the charger needing it. The motor controller does regenerative
        braking, essentially charging the batteries on the fly while you slow
        down. It has a maximum voltage programmed into it so that it won't
        overcharge your pack when it is full (like when you first start out
        after charging).

        -Tom

        philipdayson wrote:

        > My pack of Valence batteries should be arriving in a couple of weeks
        >Could someone explain why the controller will apparently need to be
        >reprogrammed in order to use these batteries
        >
        >Phil
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      • philipdayson
        I am going to be installing 13 of the Valence U27 Batteries They are rated by Valence at 130 Ah. I am going to be using the Valence BMS systems( total of
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 11, 2005
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          I am going to be installing 13 of the Valence U27 Batteries They are
          rated by Valence at 130 Ah. I am going to be using the Valence BMS
          systems( total of four) along with four Delta Q chargers Fortunately
          we use DeltaQ chargers in the Dynasty NEV that my company builds
          (www.itiselectric.com) and DeltaQ is situated here in Vancouver They
          will be running some trials on the batteries and setting up the
          charge algorithms. I may eventually have a couple of the original
          chargers for sale.

          Am still not completely clear whether or not my controller will have to
          go back to Solectria for reprogramming

          Phil
        • Stephen Taylor
          Someone on this list must know what the Lead Acid controller are programmed for for high and low voltages. I had my controller and charger reprogrammed based
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 11, 2005
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            Someone on this list must know what the Lead Acid controller are programmed for for high and low voltages. I had my controller and charger reprogrammed based on conversations and emails between John Rogers (Azure/Solectria) and Marc Kohler, before I got the batteries. Found out later that the charger wasn't going to do the job with the current level of BMUs that Valence had and thus the Delta Q chargers.

            The controller was reprogrammed with a top end voltage of 190 volts, but that was (pre Delta Q)also when we thought we were going to need to charge the batteries a little higher than necessary so that all the batteries were above 13.8 volts. Marc wasn't concerned that any damage would occur when regen might take the Lithium Batteries up to 190 volts.

            That said, now that I have the Delta Q chargers the battteries float at 180 to 181 volts. The 190 volt top end is not necessary. Even with freshly charged batteries a fairly long regen cycle only brings the batteries back to about 181 volts. Of course I don't have a huge hill to regen on near my house. If I had to guess the lead acid top end programmed into the controller is probably 183.3 volts or something near that. If that is the case then your controller probably doesn't need to be reprogrammed at least for the top end because your lithium batteries can take the same 183.3 volts. What I don't know is the bottom end where the controller cuts the power to the motor. I'm trying to find how low John Rogers set mine, but once again I don't know where the lead acid number is either.

            Long story short, I bet you can do without the controller being reprogrammed, but without knowing the lead acid programming already in your controller I'm not certain.

            Anybody know what those upper and lower limits are set for in a 156 volt car.

            Stephen Taylor

            philipdayson <pdayson@...> wrote:
            I am going to be installing 13 of the Valence U27 Batteries They are
            rated by Valence at 130 Ah. I am going to be using the Valence BMS
            systems( total of four) along with four Delta Q chargers Fortunately
            we use DeltaQ chargers in the Dynasty NEV that my company builds
            (www.itiselectric.com) and DeltaQ is situated here in Vancouver They
            will be running some trials on the batteries and setting up the
            charge algorithms. I may eventually have a couple of the original
            chargers for sale.

            Am still not completely clear whether or not my controller will have to
            go back to Solectria for reprogramming

            Phil







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          • gjc0@aol.com
            Phil: Tell me more about the Valence batteries. I looked at their web site and the 130 AH 12 volt variety looked like a good fit for my 1992 Force. When I
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 11, 2005
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              Phil:

              Tell me more about the Valence batteries. I looked at their web site and
              the
              130 AH 12 volt variety looked like a good fit for my 1992 Force. When I
              called
              the local rep, he said that they would cost $2500.00 each!

              I think that was his way of saying, "Go away kid, you bother me!"
              Or maybe they are very proud of the serial interface that comes with them.

              What are other people paying for the big 12 volt Valence lithiums?

              Sincerely,
              Gary Carlson


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            • Tom Hudson
              I priced a set of these recently for my E-10 pickup and just about had a stroke when I got the price quote for 24, Group 24 batteries. Let s just say I could
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 13, 2005
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                I priced a set of these recently for my E-10 pickup and just about had a
                stroke when I got the price quote for 24, Group 24 batteries. Let's
                just say I could operate the truck for the next 30 or so years replacing
                a lead-acid pack every few years and still come out ahead. Of course, I
                wouldn't get the same per-charge range, which is awfully sweet with the
                Valences.

                Another good thing about the Valences is their advanced safety features
                -- You can shoot a bullet through them without the kind of fires and
                stuff from other Li-Ion batteries.

                Oh, well.

                -Tom

                gjc0@... wrote:

                >Phil:
                >
                >Tell me more about the Valence batteries. I looked at their web site and
                >the
                >130 AH 12 volt variety looked like a good fit for my 1992 Force. When I
                >called
                >the local rep, he said that they would cost $2500.00 each!
                >
                >I think that was his way of saying, "Go away kid, you bother me!"
                >Or maybe they are very proud of the serial interface that comes with them.
                >
                >What are other people paying for the big 12 volt Valence lithiums?
                >
                >Sincerely,
                >Gary Carlson
                >
                >
                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >

                --
                Thomas Hudson
                http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
                http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
                http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
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              • rod864
                ... For the top, I d guess somewhere in the 185v range. That s just a guess. As for the lower limit, AFAIK, all the controllers in the lead cars were set to
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 13, 2005
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                  --- In force_ev@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Taylor <sparrow262@y...

                  > Anybody know what those upper and lower [voltage] limits are set
                  > for in a 156 volt car

                  For the top, I'd guess somewhere in the 185v range. That's just a
                  guess.

                  As for the lower limit, AFAIK, all the controllers in the lead cars
                  were set to limit current so that battery voltage stayed at or above
                  10.5 volts per module. This would be 136.5 volts for a 156v nominal
                  pack.

                  If yours differs, please post!
                • Stephen Taylor
                  I know Marc and Solectria were trying to be conservative so they set my lower limit on my controller for the Lithium Batteries to 150 volts. You probably want
                  Message 8 of 11 , Oct 14, 2005
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                    I know Marc and Solectria were trying to be conservative so they set my lower limit on my controller for the Lithium Batteries to 150 volts. You probably want to check with Marc Kohler, but I think 136.5 may be a bit low for the Lithium Batteries.

                    Stephen Taylor
                    rod864 <rod864@...> wrote:
                    --- In force_ev@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Taylor <sparrow262@y...

                    > Anybody know what those upper and lower [voltage] limits are set
                    > for in a 156 volt car

                    For the top, I'd guess somewhere in the 185v range. That's just a
                    guess.

                    As for the lower limit, AFAIK, all the controllers in the lead cars
                    were set to limit current so that battery voltage stayed at or above
                    10.5 volts per module. This would be 136.5 volts for a 156v nominal
                    pack.

                    If yours differs, please post!





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                  • Stephen Taylor
                    I m sure like my Force your E-10 would also get a boost of extra acceleration too with the Valence Batteries. Can t say how much I enjoy that little extra
                    Message 9 of 11 , Oct 14, 2005
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                      I'm sure like my Force your E-10 would also get a boost of extra acceleration too with the Valence Batteries. Can't say how much I enjoy that little extra pep.

                      Stephen Taylor

                      Tom Hudson <tomhudson@...> wrote:
                      I priced a set of these recently for my E-10 pickup and just about had a
                      stroke when I got the price quote for 24, Group 24 batteries. Let's
                      just say I could operate the truck for the next 30 or so years replacing
                      a lead-acid pack every few years and still come out ahead. Of course, I
                      wouldn't get the same per-charge range, which is awfully sweet with the
                      Valences.

                      Another good thing about the Valences is their advanced safety features
                      -- You can shoot a bullet through them without the kind of fires and
                      stuff from other Li-Ion batteries.

                      Oh, well.

                      -Tom

                      gjc0@... wrote:

                      >Phil:
                      >
                      >Tell me more about the Valence batteries. I looked at their web site and
                      >the
                      >130 AH 12 volt variety looked like a good fit for my 1992 Force. When I
                      >called
                      >the local rep, he said that they would cost $2500.00 each!
                      >
                      >I think that was his way of saying, "Go away kid, you bother me!"
                      >Or maybe they are very proud of the serial interface that comes with them.
                      >
                      >What are other people paying for the big 12 volt Valence lithiums?
                      >
                      >Sincerely,
                      >Gary Carlson
                      >
                      >
                      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      --
                      Thomas Hudson
                      http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
                      http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
                      http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
                      http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
                      http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects




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