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RE: [force_ev] air conditioning

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  • Will Beckett (pacbell)
    Take it to a general mechanic and have it recharged. Make sure they don t over fill it or it will not work. There should be a label under the hood that gives
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 11, 2005
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      Take it to a general mechanic and have it recharged. Make sure they don't
      over fill it or it will not work. There should be a label under the hood
      that gives instructions.

      -----Original Message-----
      From: force_ev@yahoogroups.com [mailto:force_ev@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of Ken Olum
      Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 1:29 PM
      To: force_ev@...
      Subject: [force_ev] air conditioning

      My 1998 Force (1997 Geo) air conditioner doesn't work well enough to be
      useful. The air output from the vents is only about 10 degrees F cooler
      than ambient. Anyone had experience with A/C repairs? It would be easier
      if I could just take it to a general mechanic, although I do live barely
      within driving range of Solectria.

      Thanks.

      Ken


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    • Tom Hudson
      Will s right, any qualified shop can do the work. Our E-10 s A/C had a slow leak in it and they eventually ran that down (they can put a dye in the lines that
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 11, 2005
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        Will's right, any qualified shop can do the work. Our E-10's A/C had a
        slow leak in it and they eventually ran that down (they can put a dye in
        the lines that will show where leaks are). Good luck!

        -Tom

        Will Beckett (pacbell) wrote:

        >Take it to a general mechanic and have it recharged. Make sure they don't
        >over fill it or it will not work. There should be a label under the hood
        >that gives instructions.
        >
        >
        --
        Thomas Hudson
        http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
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      • rod864
        Is the compressor running fast enough? The earlier cars at least had a controller for the air-con drive motor; it limits the compressor s speed to save
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 12, 2005
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          Is the compressor running fast enough? The earlier cars at least had
          a controller for the air-con drive motor; it limits the compressor's
          speed to save energy. There is a screwdriver adjust pot on it. If
          the pot is accidentally disturbed, it's possible for the compressor to
          run too slowly, limiting the system's cooling capacity.

          If your car has something similar, you might check that before taking
          it to a workshop.
        • Ken Olum
          From: rod864 Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:03:02 -0000 Is the compressor running fast enough? The earlier cars at least had a controller for
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 12, 2005
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            From: "rod864" <rod864@...>
            Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:03:02 -0000

            Is the compressor running fast enough? The earlier cars at least had
            a controller for the air-con drive motor; it limits the compressor's
            speed to save energy. There is a screwdriver adjust pot on it. If
            the pot is accidentally disturbed, it's possible for the compressor to
            run too slowly, limiting the system's cooling capacity.

            I do have a controller, "model DC30-156V". It does not seem to have
            any obvious externally accessible adjustment, however.

            Ken
          • Tom Hudson
            Just wondering if anyone has a charger profile for the Brusa NLG412 for a 144-Volt pack of Deka Dominators (aka Sonnenschein). It turns out that my E-10
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 14, 2005
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              Just wondering if anyone has a charger profile for the Brusa NLG412 for
              a 144-Volt pack of Deka Dominators (aka Sonnenschein). It turns out
              that my E-10 pickup's charger has a profile in it that tops out at 15
              volts per module, which is (AFAIK) too high for the Deka Dominators.
              IIRC, the Dekas want to finish off at no more than 14 volts per module.

              I had assumed (incorrectly) that when Solectria gave the Bureau of Land
              Management the instructions for changing this truck over from Hawkers to
              Dominators, they had also reprogrammed the battery charger. I suppose
              this is why my pack didn't last as long as I had expected.

              Anywho, if anyone can point me to a location where I can grab a copy of
              this charging profile, or email me a copy of it directly, I'd appreciate
              it. I suspect the Hawker profile in my truck also probably has
              different temperature compensation etc. as well so I don't just want to
              dial down the voltage.

              Thanks!

              -Tom

              --
              Thomas Hudson
              http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
              http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
              http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
              http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
              http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects
            • Stephen Taylor
              Tom I don t have the profile, but Solectria s profile for 156 volt chargers they have sent me top out at 195 volts during overcharge, which is the same 15
              Message 6 of 11 , Aug 14, 2005
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                Tom I don't have the profile, but Solectria's profile for 156 volt chargers they have sent me top out at 195 volts during overcharge, which is the same 15 volts per battery you referenced.

                Stpeh Taylor

                Tom Hudson <tomhudson@...> wrote:
                Just wondering if anyone has a charger profile for the Brusa NLG412 for
                a 144-Volt pack of Deka Dominators (aka Sonnenschein). It turns out
                that my E-10 pickup's charger has a profile in it that tops out at 15
                volts per module, which is (AFAIK) too high for the Deka Dominators.
                IIRC, the Dekas want to finish off at no more than 14 volts per module.

                I had assumed (incorrectly) that when Solectria gave the Bureau of Land
                Management the instructions for changing this truck over from Hawkers to
                Dominators, they had also reprogrammed the battery charger. I suppose
                this is why my pack didn't last as long as I had expected.

                Anywho, if anyone can point me to a location where I can grab a copy of
                this charging profile, or email me a copy of it directly, I'd appreciate
                it. I suspect the Hawker profile in my truck also probably has
                different temperature compensation etc. as well so I don't just want to
                dial down the voltage.

                Thanks!

                -Tom

                --
                Thomas Hudson
                http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
                http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
                http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
                http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
                http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects




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              • Tom Hudson
                Hmm. This is weird. Hopefully David Roden will chime in on this, since he has far more experience with this than I do. The specs I just looked at on the Deka
                Message 7 of 11 , Aug 14, 2005
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                  Hmm. This is weird. Hopefully David Roden will chime in on this, since
                  he has far more experience with this than I do.

                  The specs I just looked at on the Deka website say "Do not exceed 14.1
                  volts for gel..." and I always thought this was the absolute charging
                  maximum.

                  Looking at the NLG charger programming software, and downloading the
                  profile from my charger, the voltage limit for the first (bulk charge)
                  phase is shown to be 169.2V (corresponding to 14.1V per module in 1
                  12-battery string) -- Which is correct. Then, in the part of the
                  display that gives the criteria for switching to the next charging
                  phase, the voltage limit is set to 180 (or 15V per battery module).
                  Won't this damage the batteries? I see nothing in Deka's documentation
                  that says anything about 15V per module for gel batteries.

                  Now here's the thoroughly bizarre part:

                  For the heck of it, I saved a backup copy of the original profile that
                  was in the charger to disk. I then set the voltage limit for switchover
                  to the second charging phase to 170V, somewhat more than ideal but I
                  wanted to test the change to the next charging phase (and I'm still
                  testing this on my dying pack, so it isn't going to hurt anything).
                  Well, I stored the revised profile and fired up the charger, then
                  watched the output voltage. It gradually climbed to 170V and then
                  beyond! I let it run for some time and it never changed out of that
                  first phase. I double-checked the truth table that controls section
                  switching and it was all correct. I double-checked with my meter that
                  indeed the voltages at the individual batteries eas exceeding 14.1V.

                  So what's up with that? I double-checked to be sure the charger had the
                  profile stored in it, and it was all correct.

                  Clearly, there's something about this I don't understand, even though
                  the documentation I have on the NLG programming software indicated I'm
                  doing it right. I even tried this with a spare NLG412 charger I
                  salvaged from a Force, and it does the same thing.

                  So I'm left with two mysteries:

                  1) Can you or can you not charge Sonnenschein/Deka Dominator gel
                  batteries beyond 14.1V? If you can, that's news to Deka's documentation.

                  2) Why is the charger not changing charge phases when I tell it to do so
                  at a lower voltage?

                  I don't want to go too much farther here with the battery change in my
                  truck until I get this sorted out.

                  -Tom

                  Stephen Taylor wrote:

                  >Tom I don't have the profile, but Solectria's profile for 156 volt chargers they have sent me top out at 195 volts during overcharge, which is the same 15 volts per battery you referenced.
                  >
                  >Stpeh Taylor
                  >
                  >

                  --
                  Thomas Hudson
                  http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
                  http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
                  http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
                  http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
                  http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects
                • Tom Hudson
                  Follow-up: I just went out to see how things were progressing and I think I ve figured out what was going on. See if this makes sense: The truck was still
                  Message 8 of 11 , Aug 14, 2005
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                    Follow-up:

                    I just went out to see how things were progressing and I think I've
                    figured out what was going on. See if this makes sense:

                    The truck was still charging in phase 1, but the charge voltage had
                    leveled off at around 171.39V. I noticed that the charge current had
                    dropped to around 4.2A. I took a peek at the Ah counter, it was at
                    around -1.0 so the truck was effectively charged up. I recalled that
                    one of the charge phase 1 termination events was satisfied if the charge
                    current dropped below 4A.

                    So I sat and watched the current slowly drop to around 4A, then as it
                    went below 4A, the charger switched to the second phase, where it puts
                    out 3A of constant current. The voltage dropped somewhat and the
                    current held. Eventually, the charger switched to stage 3, where it was
                    holding the voltage at ~165.37V and the Charge Complete light came on.

                    Hmm. I switched back over to the NLG programming software and looked at
                    the charge profile again. The phase 1 voltage was set to 169.2 but the
                    voltage actually climbed to 171.39V. Stage 2 had a 3A current which was
                    being respected. Stage 3 had a float voltage of 163.2 but the truck was
                    actually floating at 165.37.

                    Looking at the first page of the charger program, there's a 30 degree C
                    reference temperature with a 0.2% per degree C compensation. My battery
                    temperature was 23.65C, 6.35 degrees below the 30 degree reference
                    temperature. At 0.2% per degree, that's an adjustment of 1.27%.

                    First, the bulk charge voltage: 169.2 X 1.0127 = 171.34. Right where I
                    was seeing the voltage.

                    The float charge: 163.2 X 1.0127 = 165.27, or right in the ballpark with
                    the observed 165.37.

                    Sooo....

                    My guess is that the 180V value I was seeing in the charge profile is
                    simply an emergency cutoff in case something goes really wrong. When I
                    entered 170V as the cutoff (that as you might recall didn't shut it off)
                    I didn't factor in the temperature compensation, which would have pushed
                    that to around 172V, and obviously it didn't get turned off.

                    The good thing is, both my chargers are working right, and in a pinch I
                    can modify the 156V profile from the Force's old charger to work with
                    the 144V pack in my E-10. If I can't find an "official" profile, I can
                    easily create one. Whew.

                    They say you learn something new every day, and I guess that's true!

                    -Tom

                    --
                    Thomas Hudson
                    http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
                    http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
                    http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
                    http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
                    http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects
                  • Anil Paryani
                    I am still having trouble with my Solectria 95 Force with an AMC-325 controller. I have made some progress using a new POT. However only 1 in 50 key-ons
                    Message 9 of 11 , Aug 20, 2005
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                      I am still having trouble with my Solectria 95 Force
                      with an AMC-325 controller. I have made some progress
                      using a new POT. However only 1 in 50 "key-ons" are
                      successful with me being able to drive. The other 49
                      times the vehicle does not respond at all to the
                      throttle.

                      What makes this difficult to diagnoise is that the
                      serial data out of the controller does not output
                      anything thing during the 49 unsuccessdul attempts. I
                      have tried two different motor controllers and they
                      both behave identically. So it must be something
                      intermittant on the vehicle interface side.

                      My ignition and gear selector are fine as I can hear
                      the motor controller's contactor "clunk" everytime I
                      key-on.

                      I have checked the signals going to DB25 connector and
                      everything seems fine.

                      I have the follow questions:

                      1. Does anybody have a pin-out for the DB-9 connector
                      going to the speed sensor?
                      2. When I run the monlog_e program of the motor
                      controller (I only get data when the motor controller
                      is happy) IBF and 10K bouce from 1 to 0. See
                      attached. what does this mean? Could this be the
                      source of my problems.
                      3. What could cause the AMC-325 not to output serial
                      data when it receives the ignition signal?

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                    • Will Beckett (pacbell)
                      Is the throttle cable adjusted correctly? ... From: force_ev@yahoogroups.com [mailto:force_ev@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anil Paryani Sent: Saturday, August
                      Message 10 of 11 , Aug 20, 2005
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                        Is the throttle cable adjusted correctly?

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: force_ev@yahoogroups.com [mailto:force_ev@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                        Of Anil Paryani
                        Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 10:08 PM
                        To: force_ev@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [force_ev] "IBF" and "10k"using Monlog_e.exe

                        I am still having trouble with my Solectria 95 Force with an AMC-325
                        controller. I have made some progress using a new POT. However only 1 in
                        50 "key-ons" are successful with me being able to drive. The other 49 times
                        the vehicle does not respond at all to the throttle.

                        What makes this difficult to diagnoise is that the serial data out of the
                        controller does not output anything thing during the 49 unsuccessdul
                        attempts. I have tried two different motor controllers and they both behave
                        identically. So it must be something intermittant on the vehicle interface
                        side.

                        My ignition and gear selector are fine as I can hear the motor controller's
                        contactor "clunk" everytime I key-on.

                        I have checked the signals going to DB25 connector and everything seems
                        fine.

                        I have the follow questions:

                        1. Does anybody have a pin-out for the DB-9 connector going to the speed
                        sensor?
                        2. When I run the monlog_e program of the motor controller (I only get data
                        when the motor controller is happy) IBF and 10K bouce from 1 to 0. See
                        attached. what does this mean? Could this be the source of my problems.
                        3. What could cause the AMC-325 not to output serial data when it receives
                        the ignition signal?

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