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Re: [force_ev] Lithium

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  • Tom Hudson
    Stephen, you re going to be one popular guy around here! Lots of interest in advanced battery technology. After talking to you the other day about the lithium
    Message 1 of 18 , Apr 27 8:08 PM
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      Stephen, you're going to be one popular guy around here! Lots of
      interest in advanced battery technology.

      After talking to you the other day about the lithium stuff etc., I'm
      seriously considering a lithium upgrade on the E-10 pickup. We'll see
      how that all works budget-wise, but man, it's an exciting possibility.
      The lead-acids I put in it are near their end of life, and I'm either
      going to replace them with more lead-acids or lithiums. The Evercels
      are just too risky and it's a shame that I have a set sitting in the
      garage doing nothing.

      Mr. Kohler will be getting an email from me real quick-like.

      -Tom

      Stephen Taylor wrote:

      >
      > Just want
      >to confirm, was your 1997 force originally a lead acid force?
      >
      >YES WAS ORIGINALLY A LEAD ACID FORCE
      >
      >What
      >were all the costs involved? ie. purchase price of the lithium
      >batteries? shipping of the batteries and shipping of the controller
      >and charger to solectria?
      >
      >$32,000 FOR BATTERIES WITH BMUs, $700 FOR SOLECTRIA ENGINEERING TIME. WON'T COST NEARLY THAT MUCH A SECOND TIME AROUND FOR ENGINEERING
      >
      > how much time did it take you totally to
      >take out the lead ones and put in the new ones and complete the whole
      >switcheroo?
      >
      >NOT COUNTING THE TIME IT SAT WHILE I WAITED FOR OTHER THINGS TO HAPPEN AT SOLECTRIA, IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN AND EIGHT HOUR PROCESS.
      >
      > How high is your actual range now and has your charging
      >time changed?
      >
      >THE MOST I HAVE GONE WAS 107.5 MILES (on 101 AH out of 130 AH that are supposedly available), BUT VOLTAGE WAS STILL ABOVE 169 (AT REST) AT THAT TIME SO I THINK I COULD HAVE GOTTEN ANOTHER 20 MILES OR SO.
      >
      >Do you expect a longer life (in # of miles) out of
      >these batteries and if so how much longer.
      >
      >THEY SAY 2000 CYCLES WHICH WOULD BE 200,000 MILES OR SO
      >
      >Whom did you buy the
      >batteries from? Does Valence sell them online?
      >
      >MARC KOHLER IS THE CONTACT AT VALENCE MARC.KOHLER@...
      >
      >
      >
      >Just keep asking away if you need any other info
      >
      >

      --
      Thomas Hudson
      http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
      http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
      http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
      http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
      http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects
    • laminar1314
      How did you decide on Valence? I ve priced out 100AHr lithium at $6000 with two other vendors, not including battery management. If Solectria charges me less
      Message 2 of 18 , Apr 27 9:28 PM
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        How did you decide on Valence? I've priced out 100AHr lithium at $6000 with two other
        vendors, not including battery management. If Solectria charges me less than $700 as a
        result of you efforts, I'll cost share with you.

        One battery supplier asked if a group was interested. I bet we can get a big price break if a
        group of owners all went in together.

        Ken

        --- In force_ev@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Taylor <sparrow262@y...> wrote:
        > I've installed Valence Lithium Group 27 Batteries in my 1997 Force and they are a
        wonder. Although I haven't measured any of the vital statistics they certainly seem to be
        doing what your asking.
        >
        > Stephen Taylor
        > 1999 Lead Acid Force
        > 1999 NiCD Force
        > 1997 Valence Lithium Force
        >
        >
        > laminar1314 <2kwm@c...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello to all,
        >
        > Just joined the group. I'm going to need to replace my original battery pack soon. I'm
        > thinking of going lithium. Havn't chosen between gel and polymer. Anyone have any
        > experience in this technology and the engineering necessary to convert from lead to
        > lithium? I'm looking for about 125 mile range, better handling by lightening up, higher
        top
        > end by a voltage increase, and better hill climb especially on the freeway. I have many
        > other issues, but one at a time.
        >
        > kwm
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/force_ev/
        >
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        > force_ev-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
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        >
        >
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        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • theoldcars@aol.com
        If the price was right. I also might want to change over also. Hello Stephen the lead acid still have around 25 Ah. The Ah gauge seems to be working fine now
        Message 3 of 18 , Apr 27 10:46 PM
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          If the price was right. I also might want to change over also.

          Hello Stephen the lead acid still have around 25 Ah. The Ah gauge seems to
          be working fine now but the charger is still working at half speed. Is there
          anyone around to send it to and have fix it?

          In case anyone is interested I just bought a Ah tester from OTC. In about 10
          seconds you know what Ah capacity of a battery. Cost 249 brand new and is
          really a great tool. Sure beats all the work and time of seeing how long they
          last under a load.

          Don Blazer
          1997 Force


          In a message dated 4/27/2005 9:30:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
          2kwm@... writes:

          How did you decide on Valence? I've priced out 100AHr lithium at $6000 with
          two other
          vendors, not including battery management. If Solectria charges me less than
          $700 as a
          result of you efforts, I'll cost share with you.

          One battery supplier asked if a group was interested. I bet we can get a big
          price break if a
          group of owners all went in together.

          Ken

          --- In force_ev@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Taylor <sparrow262@y...> wrote:
          > I've installed Valence Lithium Group 27 Batteries in my 1997 Force and
          they are a
          wonder. Although I haven't measured any of the vital statistics they
          certainly seem to be
          doing what your asking.
          >
          > Stephen Taylor
          > 1999 Lead Acid Force
          > 1999 NiCD Force
          > 1997 Valence Lithium Force
          >
          >
          > laminar1314 <2kwm@c...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello to all,
          >
          > Just joined the group. I'm going to need to replace my original battery
          pack soon. I'm
          > thinking of going lithium. Havn't chosen between gel and polymer. Anyone
          have any
          > experience in this technology and the engineering necessary to convert
          from lead to
          > lithium? I'm looking for about 125 mile range, better handling by
          lightening up, higher
          top
          > end by a voltage increase, and better hill climb especially on the
          freeway. I have many
          > other issues, but one at a time.
          >
          > kwm
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/force_ev/
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > force_ev-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          >
          >
          > __________________________________________________
          > Do You Yahoo!?
          > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
          > http://mail.yahoo.com
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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        • Stephen Taylor
          I think Solectria will still work on the chargers, you just have to work hard to get in touch with them. Stephen theoldcars@aol.com wrote: If the price was
          Message 4 of 18 , Apr 28 9:06 AM
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            I think Solectria will still work on the chargers, you just have to work hard to get in touch with them.

            Stephen


            theoldcars@... wrote:

            If the price was right. I also might want to change over also.

            Hello Stephen the lead acid still have around 25 Ah. The Ah gauge seems to
            be working fine now but the charger is still working at half speed. Is there
            anyone around to send it to and have fix it?

            In case anyone is interested I just bought a Ah tester from OTC. In about 10
            seconds you know what Ah capacity of a battery. Cost 249 brand new and is
            really a great tool. Sure beats all the work and time of seeing how long they
            last under a load.

            Don Blazer
            1997 Force


            In a message dated 4/27/2005 9:30:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
            2kwm@... writes:

            How did you decide on Valence? I've priced out 100AHr lithium at $6000 with
            two other
            vendors, not including battery management. If Solectria charges me less than
            $700 as a
            result of you efforts, I'll cost share with you.

            One battery supplier asked if a group was interested. I bet we can get a big
            price break if a
            group of owners all went in together.

            Ken

            --- In force_ev@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Taylor <sparrow262@y...> wrote:
            > I've installed Valence Lithium Group 27 Batteries in my 1997 Force and
            they are a
            wonder. Although I haven't measured any of the vital statistics they
            certainly seem to be
            doing what your asking.
            >
            > Stephen Taylor
            > 1999 Lead Acid Force
            > 1999 NiCD Force
            > 1997 Valence Lithium Force
            >
            >
            > laminar1314 <2kwm@c...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello to all,
            >
            > Just joined the group. I'm going to need to replace my original battery
            pack soon. I'm
            > thinking of going lithium. Havn't chosen between gel and polymer. Anyone
            have any
            > experience in this technology and the engineering necessary to convert
            from lead to
            > lithium? I'm looking for about 125 mile range, better handling by
            lightening up, higher
            top
            > end by a voltage increase, and better hill climb especially on the
            freeway. I have many
            > other issues, but one at a time.
            >
            > kwm
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/force_ev/
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > force_ev-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            >
            >
            > __________________________________________________
            > Do You Yahoo!?
            > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
            > http://mail.yahoo.com
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
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            Network for Good is THE place to support health awareness efforts!
            _Click Here!_ (http://us.click.yahoo.com/RzSHvD/UOnJAA/79vVAA/FGYolB/TM)
            --------------------------------------------------------------------~->


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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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          • Stephen Taylor
            I decided on Valence because the installation was easy (just replace the lead acid with same size Lithium) and the battery mangement (which is very important
            Message 5 of 18 , Apr 28 9:09 AM
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              I decided on Valence because the installation was easy (just replace the lead acid with same size Lithium) and the battery mangement (which is very important for Lithium Batteries) was included.

              Stephen

              laminar1314 <2kwm@...> wrote:
              How did you decide on Valence? I've priced out 100AHr lithium at $6000 with two other
              vendors, not including battery management. If Solectria charges me less than $700 as a
              result of you efforts, I'll cost share with you.

              One battery supplier asked if a group was interested. I bet we can get a big price break if a
              group of owners all went in together.

              Ken




              __________________________________________________
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              Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Tom Hudson
              Don, Is your charger the BC3300 (a.k.a. NLG412)? If so, you might try contacting Victor Tikhonov, MetricMind Engineering, http://www.metricmind.com/ -- his
              Message 6 of 18 , Apr 28 11:51 AM
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                Don, Is your charger the BC3300 (a.k.a. NLG412)? If so, you might try
                contacting Victor Tikhonov, MetricMind Engineering,
                http://www.metricmind.com/ -- his email is vtikhono@..., Victor is
                the Brusa dealer for the US and may be able to help out with the
                half-speed charging issue.

                Another option, if you have the BC3300, is to contact Victor and ask
                about the upgrade to the NLG5 charger series. One of the Brusa people
                told me they have a trade-in discount deal going, and I may take
                advantage of that rather than try to fix my old charger, which is also
                doing the half-speed charge thing.

                -Tom

                theoldcars@... wrote:

                >
                >If the price was right. I also might want to change over also.
                >
                >Hello Stephen the lead acid still have around 25 Ah. The Ah gauge seems to
                >be working fine now but the charger is still working at half speed. Is there
                >anyone around to send it to and have fix it?
                >
                >In case anyone is interested I just bought a Ah tester from OTC. In about 10
                >seconds you know what Ah capacity of a battery. Cost 249 brand new and is
                >really a great tool. Sure beats all the work and time of seeing how long they
                >last under a load.
                >
                >Don Blazer
                >1997 Force
                >
                >

                --
                Thomas Hudson
                http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
                http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
                http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
                http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
                http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects
              • Stephen Taylor
                I bought my NLG5 from Victor. Neither Brusa nor Victor seem to support the NLG4. From what I remember, when purchasing my NLG5, the discount for sending your
                Message 7 of 18 , Apr 28 1:01 PM
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                  I bought my NLG5 from Victor. Neither Brusa nor Victor seem to support the NLG4. From what I remember, when purchasing my NLG5, the discount for sending your old NLG4 back was pretty small and was based on the age of the NLG4. It wasn't enough of a discount for me to make the deal and I think it turned out for the best, since I needed the EPROM from my old NiCD Charger to make the used replacement NLG4 work that I found later. I guess with a standard lead acid charger the EPROM isn't as important though so maybe the trade in discount might be worth it.

                  Stephen

                  Tom Hudson <tomhudson@...> wrote:
                  Don, Is your charger the BC3300 (a.k.a. NLG412)? If so, you might try
                  contacting Victor Tikhonov, MetricMind Engineering,
                  http://www.metricmind.com/ -- his email is vtikhono@..., Victor is
                  the Brusa dealer for the US and may be able to help out with the
                  half-speed charging issue.

                  Another option, if you have the BC3300, is to contact Victor and ask
                  about the upgrade to the NLG5 charger series. One of the Brusa people
                  told me they have a trade-in discount deal going, and I may take
                  advantage of that rather than try to fix my old charger, which is also
                  doing the half-speed charge thing.

                  -Tom

                  theoldcars@... wrote:

                  >
                  >If the price was right. I also might want to change over also.
                  >
                  >Hello Stephen the lead acid still have around 25 Ah. The Ah gauge seems to
                  >be working fine now but the charger is still working at half speed. Is there
                  >anyone around to send it to and have fix it?
                  >
                  >In case anyone is interested I just bought a Ah tester from OTC. In about 10
                  >seconds you know what Ah capacity of a battery. Cost 249 brand new and is
                  >really a great tool. Sure beats all the work and time of seeing how long they
                  >last under a load.
                  >
                  >Don Blazer
                  >1997 Force
                  >
                  >

                  --
                  Thomas Hudson
                  http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
                  http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
                  http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
                  http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
                  http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects




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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • theoldcars@aol.com
                  Hello Tom I looked at the prices on the NLG5 it was 3899 dollars for the charger and another 390 dollars for the adapter cable that is needed to change over
                  Message 8 of 18 , Apr 28 2:41 PM
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                    Hello Tom

                    I looked at the prices on the NLG5 it was 3899 dollars for the charger and
                    another 390 dollars for the adapter cable that is needed to change over to
                    the NGL5 _http://www.metricmind.com/index1.htm_
                    (http://www.metricmind.com/index1.htm)

                    Even if they gave you 50% off the new charger on a core charge for the NLG4
                    it still would be over 2000 dollars. I sure hope be able to fix the NLG4 for a
                    lot less.

                    I have sent an email to the address Stephen posted to see if Solectria can
                    fix it.

                    I also have two NGL412 B chargers programed for SAFT batteries. If they were
                    both reprogramed I would be willing to sell one of them.

                    Don Blazer



                    In a message dated 4/28/2005 11:55:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
                    tomhudson@... writes:

                    Don, Is your charger the BC3300 (a.k.a. NLG412)? If so, you might try
                    contacting Victor Tikhonov, MetricMind Engineering,
                    http://www.metricmind.com/ -- his email is vtikhono@..., Victor is
                    the Brusa dealer for the US and may be able to help out with the
                    half-speed charging issue.

                    Another option, if you have the BC3300, is to contact Victor and ask
                    about the upgrade to the NLG5 charger series. One of the Brusa people
                    told me they have a trade-in discount deal going, and I may take
                    advantage of that rather than try to fix my old charger, which is also
                    doing the half-speed charge thing.

                    -Tom

                    theoldcars@... wrote:





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Peter Belden
                    Ken, Keep me in mind if you are putting together a group for a discount. When you say $6,000 is that for all 13 batteries? $6,000 sure sounds like a ton
                    Message 9 of 18 , May 4, 2005
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                      Ken,

                      Keep me in mind if you are putting together a group for a discount.
                      When you say $6,000 is that for all 13 batteries? $6,000 sure sounds
                      like a ton cheaper than the $32,000 price that Stephen paid. However
                      Valence did have a rather pursuasive safety video on their website
                      about combustion among older technology batteries during a collision
                      etc.
                      Peter

                      On 4/27/05, laminar1314 <2kwm@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > How did you decide on Valence? I've priced out 100AHr lithium at $6000
                      > with two other
                      > vendors, not including battery management. If Solectria charges me less
                      > than $700 as a
                      > result of you efforts, I'll cost share with you.
                      >
                      > One battery supplier asked if a group was interested. I bet we can get a
                      > big price break if a
                      > group of owners all went in together.
                      >
                      > Ken
                      >
                      > --- In force_ev@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Taylor <sparrow262@y...> wrote:
                      > > I've installed Valence Lithium Group 27 Batteries in my 1997 Force and
                      > they are a
                      > wonder. Although I haven't measured any of the vital statistics they
                      > certainly seem to be
                      > doing what your asking.
                      > >
                      > > Stephen Taylor
                      > > 1999 Lead Acid Force
                      > > 1999 NiCD Force
                      > > 1997 Valence Lithium Force
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > laminar1314 <2kwm@c...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hello to all,
                      > >
                      > > Just joined the group. I'm going to need to replace my original battery
                      > pack soon. I'm
                      > > thinking of going lithium. Havn't chosen between gel and polymer. Anyone
                      > have any
                      > > experience in this technology and the engineering necessary to convert
                      > from lead to
                      > > lithium? I'm looking for about 125 mile range, better handling by
                      > lightening up, higher
                      > top
                      > > end by a voltage increase, and better hill climb especially on the
                      > freeway. I have many
                      > > other issues, but one at a time.
                      > >
                      > > kwm
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ---------------------------------
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/force_ev/
                      > >
                      > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > > force_ev-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > >
                      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > __________________________________________________
                      > > Do You Yahoo!?
                      > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                      > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------
                      > *Yahoo! Groups Links*
                      >
                      > - To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/force_ev/
                      > - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Tom Hudson
                      I am also interested in a set for our truck. The truck currently uses 24 group 24 s -- Valence s website doesn t say anything about what they offer in terms
                      Message 10 of 18 , May 5, 2005
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                        I am also interested in a set for our truck. The truck currently uses
                        24 group 24's -- Valence's website doesn't say anything about what they
                        offer in terms of form factor. Or am I missing something?

                        -Tom

                        Peter Belden wrote:

                        >Ken,
                        >
                        >Keep me in mind if you are putting together a group for a discount.
                        >When you say $6,000 is that for all 13 batteries? $6,000 sure sounds
                        >like a ton cheaper than the $32,000 price that Stephen paid. However
                        >Valence did have a rather pursuasive safety video on their website
                        >about combustion among older technology batteries during a collision
                        >etc.
                        > Peter
                        >
                        > On 4/27/05, laminar1314 <2kwm@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >>How did you decide on Valence? I've priced out 100AHr lithium at $6000
                        >>with two other
                        >>vendors, not including battery management. If Solectria charges me less
                        >>than $700 as a
                        >>result of you efforts, I'll cost share with you.
                        >>
                        >>One battery supplier asked if a group was interested. I bet we can get a
                        >>big price break if a
                        >>group of owners all went in together.
                        >>
                        >>Ken
                        >>
                        >>--- In force_ev@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Taylor <sparrow262@y...> wrote:
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>>I've installed Valence Lithium Group 27 Batteries in my 1997 Force and
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>they are a
                        >>wonder. Although I haven't measured any of the vital statistics they
                        >>certainly seem to be
                        >>doing what your asking.
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>>Stephen Taylor
                        >>>1999 Lead Acid Force
                        >>>1999 NiCD Force
                        >>>1997 Valence Lithium Force
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>laminar1314 <2kwm@c...> wrote:
                        >>>
                        >>>Hello to all,
                        >>>
                        >>>Just joined the group. I'm going to need to replace my original battery
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>pack soon. I'm
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>>thinking of going lithium. Havn't chosen between gel and polymer. Anyone
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>have any
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>>experience in this technology and the engineering necessary to convert
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>from lead to
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>>lithium? I'm looking for about 125 mile range, better handling by
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>lightening up, higher
                        >>top
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>>end by a voltage increase, and better hill climb especially on the
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>freeway. I have many
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>>other issues, but one at a time.
                        >>>
                        >>>kwm
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>---------------------------------
                        >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >>>
                        >>>To visit your group on the web, go to:
                        >>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/force_ev/
                        >>>
                        >>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        >>>force_ev-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >>>
                        >>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>__________________________________________________
                        >>>Do You Yahoo!?
                        >>>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                        >>>http://mail.yahoo.com
                        >>>
                        >>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>------------------------------
                        >>*Yahoo! Groups Links*
                        >>
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                      • Anil Paryani
                        Does anyone have a motor controller for sale? It seems that the same motor controller is not available any more. Has anyone tried the DMOC445 controller
                        Message 11 of 18 , May 5, 2005
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                          Does anyone have a motor controller for sale? It
                          seems that the same motor controller is not available
                          any more.

                          Has anyone tried the DMOC445 controller available for
                          sale on electroauto.com? It seems a little tall. Is
                          it pin for pin compatbile with the existing
                          controller?

                          -Anil

                          95 Solectria



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