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8499Controller delta vs WYE [was Re: Upgrade voltage - DC-DC Converter ...]

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  • otedawg
    Nov 6, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      FINALLY!
      I got my AC24 to work in both Delta and WYE. I hacked the parameters together from 4 different .par files, and tested them in the car with my multimeter and scope (+HV probe borrowed from work). It works fine. I've been able to get to 75mph on the highway. If anyone is interested, I can post .par files for both delta and wye.


      Thanks for all the help,
      Josh

      --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Wolf <wolf@...> wrote:
      >
      > It is more basic than that, with out adjusting for the inductance change
      > from DELTA to WYE the pwm current wave form will start to look triangular,
      > instead of sinusoidal.
      >
      > Or more square if going from WYE to DELTA...
      >
      > You want a nice prefect sinewave for the most efficient transfer of power
      > to the rotor.
      > On Oct 27, 2012 2:10 PM, "Lawrence Winiarski" <lawrence_winiarski@...>
      > wrote:
      >
      > > **
      > >
      > >
      > > Just lurking and not a motor expert, but wouldn't the lag of the phasor
      > > (and of course the total current) depend more heavily on the slip?
      > > I'd think the actual reactive inductance varies all over the place as the
      > > car goes up and down hills and shifts from power => regen.
      > >
      > > Not saying the static inductance doesn't matter, but curious how much the
      > > phasor angle varies from the static position.
      > >
      > > ----------------------------------------------------------
      > > If we don't halt population growth with justice and compassion, it will be
      > > done for us by nature, brutally and without pity - and will leave a ravaged
      > > world.
      > > Nobel Laureate Dr. Henry W. Kendall 023934
      > >
      > > ________________________________
      > > From: geo_homsy2 <geo.homsy@...>
      > > To: solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 11:14 AM
      > > Subject: [solectria_ev] Controller delta vs WYE [was Re: Upgrade voltage -
      > > DC-DC Converter ...]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Ahaa! Thanks, Wolf!
      > >
      > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Wolf <wolf@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > The controller cares because the motor has twice the inductance when
      > > wired
      > > > in WYE, thus the phasor needs to be advanced to counteract the lagged
      > > > current.
      > > > On Oct 26, 2012 1:26 AM, "geo_homsy2" <geo.homsy@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > > **
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Hi Josh-
      > > > >
      > > > > I'm familiar with phasor analysis, and I understand the difference
      > > between
      > > > > a motor wired delta, and a motor wired wye. I like to think of it as
      > > > > changing the voltage- and current- constants of the motor, by a factor
      > > of
      > > > > sqrt(3) = 1.73, as you said.
      > > > >
      > > > > What I do NOT understand, however, is why the controller cares! Phases
      > > R,
      > > > > S, and T, should be basically the same, but 120 degrees out of phase.
      > > > > Period, end of story. I don't know why the controller wants to know the
      > > > > topology of what it's driving, as long as it's 3-fold symmetric.
      > > > >
      > > > > You had me confused with "I'm guessing that the controller was 'smart'
      > > and
      > > > > outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should for
      > > > > WYE." I'm still confused by that. As you and I both said, all three
      > > outputs
      > > > > should be roughly the same but phase-shifted.
      > > > >
      > > > > Yours,
      > > > >
      > > > > //Geo
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@>
      > > wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Geo,
      > > > > > Of course I can help out. I didn't know all of this till recently,
      > > but I
      > > > > am a EE and I have worked with power systems, but not motors before.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I guess I'll start with Delta. Simply put, Delta is a motor wired in
      > > the
      > > > > shape of a delta (triangle). The controller outputs the same voltage
      > > on all
      > > > > three posts, and the motor runs in the correct direction based on the
      > > > > phasing of the wires. A 156V delta 3 phase system runs the 3 points of
      > > the
      > > > > triangle at a total of 78V to ground, and 156V across for phase A-B,
      > > B-C, &
      > > > > C-A. Phase: A is at 0degrees, B is at 120degrees, and C is at
      > > 240degrees.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > A WYE or Y motor is wired in the shape of a Y (hence the name). To
      > > > > control this motor, the controller runs similarly, but the voltage
      > > across
      > > > > each leg of the Y motor is lowered. (After EE magic, that number is
      > > 1.73).
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I'm not sure if I've explained or obfuscated the issue there. You've
      > > got
      > > > > to wrap your mind around the fact that there are 3 different voltage
      > > > > application locations, keep in mind that power is conserved (A delta
      > > motor
      > > > > will have it's current divided by 1.73, but a Y motor will have the
      > > voltage
      > > > > divided by 1.73), and stare at it long enough.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Equations: http://www.watlow.com/reference/equations/0101.cfm
      > > > > > Motor Depictions:
      > > http://www.firstelectricmotor.com/images/motcon9.jpg
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Hopefully that's helpful.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Thanks,
      > > > > > Josh
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "geo_homsy2" <geo.homsy@>
      > > wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Hi Josh-
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > question for you: You seem to know how the controller differs in
      > > its
      > > > > drive characteristics when it's configured for delta or for wye. Can
      > > you
      > > > > elucidate that for me, and for the other group members?
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > I would've just assumed symmetric drive in both cases, and that's
      > > why
      > > > > I've never been able to understand WHY the controller has a setting for
      > > > > delta vs. wye.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > yours,
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > //Geo
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, "otedawg" <joshua.orfield@>
      > > > > wrote:
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > I have switched the motor from wye to delta, and back and forth
      > > when
      > > > > I was trying to test it. I'm confident that I've done it right. I even
      > > > > tested the leads to make sure the labeling is correct. I think that my
      > > > > problem was the .par file - I'm guessing that the controller was
      > > 'smart'
      > > > > and outputting 2 full power outputs, and 1 low voltage, like it should
      > > for
      > > > > WYE.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > I'm hoping that's the problem.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Thanks,
      > > > > > > > Josh
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > --- In solectria_ev@yahoogroups.com, Collin Kidder <collink@>
      > > wrote:
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > The parameter file can now be found here:
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > http://www.kkmfg.com/PAR-10-1631-0007_SO1083.par
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > As I had mentioned, I went from delta to wye with a car. I got
      > > a
      > > > > new CCS
      > > > > > > > > and PAR file and I had to open the motor housing and switch
      > > around
      > > > > wires on
      > > > > > > > > terminals. The motor can be switched from delta to wye and
      > > back by
      > > > > > > > > loosening nuts and moving wires in the motor. Have you done
      > > that?
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 12:33 PM, otedawg <joshua.orfield@>
      > > wrote:
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > **
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > Collin,
      > > > > > > > > > Thanks for that - I'll try downloading and running with this
      > > > > file when I
      > > > > > > > > > get home today... And I just realized that I need the
      > > parameter
      > > > > (.par)
      > > > > > > > > > file, not the .ccs file. Could you upload such a file? Sorry
      > > for
      > > > > the
      > > > > > > > > > inconvenience.
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > Hopefully the wye -> delta conversion is just a parameter
      > > > > change, not
      > > > > > > > > > something hidden that Azure uses...
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
      > > > > > > > > > Josh
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > >
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