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Re: [solarisx86] Zones and Containers

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  • Adrian Saul
    Short anwser - zones is the technology for making a virtual OS environment. Containers is the marketing term when you combine zones with resource controls.
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 1, 2009
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      Short anwser - zones is the technology for making a virtual OS
      environment. Containers is the marketing term when you combine zones
      with resource controls.

      For all intents and purposes the same thing.


      brown wrap wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > The reason I am trying to install Solaris 10, is to try and get a
      > handle on new technology. At work were were using Solaris 7 and 8, so
      > you see I am way behind. I am trying to understand Zones and
      > Containers. It seems to me they both do the same thing, setting up
      > virtual environments. Am I wrong, can someone enlighten me?
      >
      > greg
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
    • Phillip Bruce
      Greg, Adrian is correct to better sum up comparison to VMWare. VMware uses hosts OS which is the same thing as Zone or Global Zones in Solaris VMware uses
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 1, 2009
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        Greg,

        Adrian is correct to better sum up comparison to VMWare.

        VMware uses hosts OS which is the same thing as Zone or Global Zones in
        Solaris
        VMware uses guess OS which is the same thing as Containers or
        NON-Global Zones.

        So the Gobal Zones will control the containers just as Hosts OS controls
        the guess OS.

        This should clarify the answer further.

        Phillip

        Adrian Saul wrote:
        > Short anwser - zones is the technology for making a virtual OS
        > environment. Containers is the marketing term when you combine zones
        > with resource controls.
        >
        > For all intents and purposes the same thing.
        >
        >
        > brown wrap wrote:
        >
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> The reason I am trying to install Solaris 10, is to try and get a
        >> handle on new technology. At work were were using Solaris 7 and 8, so
        >> you see I am way behind. I am trying to understand Zones and
        >> Containers. It seems to me they both do the same thing, setting up
        >> virtual environments. Am I wrong, can someone enlighten me?
        >>
        >> greg
        >>
        >>
        >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >>
        >>
      • Tony Reeves
        ... I think you are confusing Logical Domains (LDOMS) with containers. LDOMs have a separate kernel for each OS instance, zones/containers do not, sparse or
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 1, 2009
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          2009/8/2 Phillip Bruce <pbbruce@...>:
          >
          >
          > Greg,
          >
          > Adrian is correct to better sum up comparison to VMWare.
          >
          > VMware uses hosts OS which is the same thing as Zone or Global Zones in
          > Solaris

          I think you are confusing Logical Domains (LDOMS) with containers.
          LDOMs have a separate kernel for each OS instance, zones/containers do
          not, sparse or global. VMWare has a kernel for each OS instance.

          > VMware uses guess OS which is the same thing as Containers or
          > NON-Global Zones.

          There is no real guest OS with containers or zones, rather there is a
          virtualised OS environment which simulates a real OS. Each VMWare
          guest is a real OS, consuming kernel memory and cpu overhead.

          --
          Tony Reeves
          Christchurch
          New Zealand
        • Phillip Bruce
          ... Tony, Your confused. LDOM uses what is known as hypervisor type technology. Global Zones doesn t use that. I am not confused. I have been using Global
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 1, 2009
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            Tony Reeves wrote:
            > 2009/8/2 Phillip Bruce <pbbruce@...>:
            >
            >> Greg,
            >>
            >> Adrian is correct to better sum up comparison to VMWare.
            >>
            >> VMware uses hosts OS which is the same thing as Zone or Global Zones in
            >> Solaris
            >>
            >
            > I think you are confusing Logical Domains (LDOMS) with containers.
            > LDOMs have a separate kernel for each OS instance, zones/containers do
            > not, sparse or global. VMWare has a kernel for each OS instance.
            >
            >
            >> VMware uses guess OS which is the same thing as Containers or
            >> NON-Global Zones.
            >>
            >
            > There is no real guest OS with containers or zones, rather there is a
            > virtualised OS environment which simulates a real OS. Each VMWare
            > guest is a real OS, consuming kernel memory and cpu overhead.
            >
            >
            Tony,

            Your confused. LDOM uses what is known as hypervisor type technology.
            Global Zones
            doesn't use that.

            I am not confused. I have been using Global Zones and Containers at my
            last employers and
            successfully implemented those technology.

            If you want to really Compare hypervisior type technologies the compare
            LDOM to IBM AIX VIO servers.
            That where you really do have a distinction.

            Phillip
          • Ian Collins
            ... Isn t that exactly what Tony said? LDOMs and VMware are hypervisors, zones are not. LDOMs and VMware have a separate kernel for each OS instance, zones do
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 1, 2009
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              Phillip Bruce wrote:
              > Tony Reeves wrote:
              >
              >> 2009/8/2 Phillip Bruce <pbbruce@...>:
              >>
              >>
              >>> Greg,
              >>>
              >>> Adrian is correct to better sum up comparison to VMWare.
              >>>
              >>> VMware uses hosts OS which is the same thing as Zone or Global Zones in
              >>> Solaris
              >>>
              >>>
              >> I think you are confusing Logical Domains (LDOMS) with containers.
              >> LDOMs have a separate kernel for each OS instance, zones/containers do
              >> not, sparse or global. VMWare has a kernel for each OS instance.
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>> VMware uses guess OS which is the same thing as Containers or
              >>> NON-Global Zones.
              >>>
              >>>
              >> There is no real guest OS with containers or zones, rather there is a
              >> virtualised OS environment which simulates a real OS. Each VMWare
              >> guest is a real OS, consuming kernel memory and cpu overhead.
              >>
              >>
              >>
              > Tony,
              >
              > Your confused. LDOM uses what is known as hypervisor type technology.
              > Global Zones doesn't use that.
              >
              >
              Isn't that exactly what Tony said?

              LDOMs and VMware are hypervisors, zones are not.


              LDOMs and VMware have a separate kernel for each OS instance, zones do not.

              --
              Ian.
            • Phillip Bruce
              ... Tony, First off off in reference to Global Zones - You have 2 root s you can implement. They are: Whole Root - Which Containers do no inherent anything
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 1, 2009
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                Tony Reeves wrote:
                > 2009/8/2 Phillip Bruce <pbbruce@...>:
                >
                >> Greg,
                >>
                >> Adrian is correct to better sum up comparison to VMWare.
                >>
                >> VMware uses hosts OS which is the same thing as Zone or Global Zones in
                >> Solaris
                >>
                >
                > I think you are confusing Logical Domains (LDOMS) with containers.
                > LDOMs have a separate kernel for each OS instance, zones/containers do
                > not, sparse or global. VMWare has a kernel for each OS instance.
                >
                >
                >> VMware uses guess OS which is the same thing as Containers or
                >> NON-Global Zones.
                >>
                >
                > There is no real guest OS with containers or zones, rather there is a
                > virtualised OS environment which simulates a real OS. Each VMWare
                > guest is a real OS, consuming kernel memory and cpu overhead.
                >
                >
                Tony,

                First off off in reference to Global Zones - You have 2 root's you can
                implement.
                They are:

                Whole Root - Which Containers do no inherent anything from the Global
                Zones they are treated separately
                Sparse Root - Are containers that do inherent everything from the Global
                Zones,

                If you look at the links I provided earlier they are very clear in their
                distinction.

                Whole Root:
                http://www.logiqwest.com/dataCenter/Demos/RunBooks/Zones/createSelfContainedZone.html

                Sparse Root:
                http://www.logiqwest.com/dataCenter/Demos/RunBooks/Zones/createBasicZone.html

                I will correct myself. If you implement VMWare ESX then you would be
                using hypervisior technology.
                IF you use the workstation of VMWare then yo would not be implementing
                hypervisior - That is if my understanding
                of the differences.

                Also I have implement IBM P5/P6 series using VIO's.

                Phillip
                LDOM is very much like IBM VIO Servers as I already pointed out.

                Current Global Zones in Solaris does not implement hypervisors.
              • Ian Collins
                ... Phillip, I think the confusion comes for the terminology (like most arguments, the cause is the lack of a common metaphor!) A Solaris installation has one
                Message 7 of 13 , Aug 1, 2009
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                  Phillip Bruce wrote:
                  > Tony Reeves wrote:
                  >> There is no real guest OS with containers or zones, rather there is a
                  >> virtualised OS environment which simulates a real OS. Each VMWare
                  >> guest is a real OS, consuming kernel memory and cpu overhead.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  > Tony,
                  >
                  > First off off in reference to Global Zones - You have 2 root's you can
                  > implement.
                  > They are:
                  >
                  > Whole Root - Which Containers do no inherent anything from the Global
                  > Zones they are treated separately
                  > Sparse Root - Are containers that do inherent everything from the Global
                  > Zones,
                  >
                  Phillip, I think the confusion comes for the terminology (like most
                  arguments, the cause is the lack of a common metaphor!)

                  A Solaris installation has one zone, the Global Zone. These is only
                  one Global Zone.

                  Whole Root and Sparse Root are the two types of user created Non-global zone.

                  --
                  Ian.
                • Phillip Bruce
                  ... Ian, I ll give.. uncle.. Basically correct. But the key point is the kernel differences and how the kernel handles the hardware. The biggest separation is
                  Message 8 of 13 , Aug 1, 2009
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                    Ian Collins wrote:
                    > Phillip Bruce wrote:
                    >
                    >> Tony Reeves wrote:
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>> 2009/8/2 Phillip Bruce <pbbruce@...>:
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>> Greg,
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Adrian is correct to better sum up comparison to VMWare.
                    >>>>
                    >>>> VMware uses hosts OS which is the same thing as Zone or Global Zones in
                    >>>> Solaris
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>> I think you are confusing Logical Domains (LDOMS) with containers.
                    >>> LDOMs have a separate kernel for each OS instance, zones/containers do
                    >>> not, sparse or global. VMWare has a kernel for each OS instance.
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>> VMware uses guess OS which is the same thing as Containers or
                    >>>> NON-Global Zones.
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>> There is no real guest OS with containers or zones, rather there is a
                    >>> virtualised OS environment which simulates a real OS. Each VMWare
                    >>> guest is a real OS, consuming kernel memory and cpu overhead.
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >> Tony,
                    >>
                    >> Your confused. LDOM uses what is known as hypervisor type technology.
                    >> Global Zones doesn't use that.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    > Isn't that exactly what Tony said?
                    >
                    > LDOMs and VMware are hypervisors, zones are not.
                    >
                    >
                    > LDOMs and VMware have a separate kernel for each OS instance, zones do not.
                    >
                    >
                    Ian,

                    I'll give.. uncle.. Basically correct. But the key point is the kernel
                    differences and how the kernel
                    handles the hardware. The biggest separation is that a Global Zone is
                    the controller of all the containers
                    that it owns. That regardless which methods a person choose to
                    implement. That being Whole Root or Sparse.

                    The Whole root will obviously take far more resource management to deal
                    with because in a SENSE you have
                    a separate OS that doesn't inherit anything from the global Zone that is
                    managing it. Use that when your sure of
                    the resources will be better managed in that condition otherwise choose
                    sparse root as a way to maintain multiple
                    number of Global Zones can be a headache if you don't have automation in
                    place.

                    LDOM's just simply provides better separation of the zones themselves
                    bringing you that much closer to using
                    SunFire Domain which truly does give you the hardware separation.

                    A good article to download is the following:
                    http://www.sun.com/blueprints/0207/820-0832.pdf

                    VMWare ESX server do implement a hypervisor called VMkernel.
                    That is comparable to LDOM and IBM hypervisiors in their P5/P6 series.

                    Phillip
                  • Phillip Bruce
                    ... Ian, That may be..That is correct. what you have stated. Thanks. Sorry Tony ..... Phillip
                    Message 9 of 13 , Aug 1, 2009
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                      Ian Collins wrote:
                      > Phillip Bruce wrote:
                      >
                      >> Tony Reeves wrote:
                      >>
                      >>> There is no real guest OS with containers or zones, rather there is a
                      >>> virtualised OS environment which simulates a real OS. Each VMWare
                      >>> guest is a real OS, consuming kernel memory and cpu overhead.
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >> Tony,
                      >>
                      >> First off off in reference to Global Zones - You have 2 root's you can
                      >> implement.
                      >> They are:
                      >>
                      >> Whole Root - Which Containers do no inherent anything from the Global
                      >> Zones they are treated separately
                      >> Sparse Root - Are containers that do inherent everything from the Global
                      >> Zones,
                      >>
                      >>
                      > Phillip, I think the confusion comes for the terminology (like most
                      > arguments, the cause is the lack of a common metaphor!)
                      >
                      > A Solaris installation has one zone, the Global Zone. These is only
                      > one Global Zone.
                      >
                      > Whole Root and Sparse Root are the two types of user created Non-global zone.
                      >
                      >
                      Ian,

                      That may be..That is correct. what you have stated. Thanks.

                      Sorry Tony .....

                      Phillip
                    • Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
                      ... The workstation VMWare is more akin to the ESX/ESXi hypervisor version except that the VMWare container runs in a process on top of an operating system
                      Message 10 of 13 , Aug 4, 2009
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                        On Aug 1, 2009, at 4:24 PM, Phillip Bruce wrote:
                        >
                        > I will correct myself. If you implement VMWare ESX then you would be
                        > using hypervisior technology.
                        > IF you use the workstation of VMWare then yo would not be implementing
                        > hypervisior - That is if my understanding
                        > of the differences.


                        The workstation VMWare is more akin to the ESX/ESXi hypervisor version
                        except that the VMWare "container" runs in a process on top of an
                        operating system -- ie, IO etc is handled by the host operating system
                        through the VMWare facility. On the hypervisor, the hypervisor is the
                        OS and handles the IO. HOWEVER, both of them run an independent
                        kernel inside of the VMWare. So it is not like a Solaris Zone or
                        Container at all, even on VMWare workstation. I can run Linux or a
                        hacked OS X [I think] in my VMWare workstation which is a totally
                        different kernel than the host workstation could be.




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Phillip Bruce
                        ... Chad, Thanks, I appreciate the feedback. Phillip
                        Message 11 of 13 , Aug 4, 2009
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                          Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC wrote:
                          > On Aug 1, 2009, at 4:24 PM, Phillip Bruce wrote:
                          >
                          >> I will correct myself. If you implement VMWare ESX then you would be
                          >> using hypervisior technology.
                          >> IF you use the workstation of VMWare then yo would not be implementing
                          >> hypervisior - That is if my understanding
                          >> of the differences.
                          >>
                          >
                          >
                          > The workstation VMWare is more akin to the ESX/ESXi hypervisor version
                          > except that the VMWare "container" runs in a process on top of an
                          > operating system -- ie, IO etc is handled by the host operating system
                          > through the VMWare facility. On the hypervisor, the hypervisor is the
                          > OS and handles the IO. HOWEVER, both of them run an independent
                          > kernel inside of the VMWare. So it is not like a Solaris Zone or
                          > Container at all, even on VMWare workstation. I can run Linux or a
                          > hacked OS X [I think] in my VMWare workstation which is a totally
                          > different kernel than the host workstation could be.
                          >
                          >
                          Chad,

                          Thanks, I appreciate the feedback.

                          Phillip
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