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Re: [solarisx86] Blastwave vs JDS

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  • Alan DuBoff
    ... I don t think so. However, I want the community to compete with JDS, because I don t personally use GNOME. I want to see a community driven KDE project
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 1, 2004
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      On Tuesday 31 August 2004 23:31, palowoda wrote:
      > I'm curious do some people think that Blastwave competes
      > with JDS? Beside the obvious StarOffice in JDS feature.

      I don't think so.

      However, I want the community to compete with JDS, because I don't personally
      use GNOME. I want to see a community driven KDE project that will integrate
      applications, in much the same way that JDS does. And competing is probably
      not a good word, IMO. I want the community to build their own KDS. When I
      install a package, like GIMP, I want it added to the menus in much the same
      way Debian does today. IOW, on the Graphics menu there would be an OSS menu
      option which would then have GIMP. Each package that can be installed should
      be able to do this, and when they're removed from the system, the menu item
      should be removed also.

      Blastwave is one project in the community, and there have been others.
      Solarpak which is now kinda defunct since the authors joined the NetBSD
      project is still not dead. The NetBSD project has agreed to start building
      x86 packages. They currently build SPARC packages. I'm in the process of
      contacting the NetBSD folks and offering to start such a project that will
      focus only on making KDE integrated, where all the apps that can be installed
      will also include the menus for KDE.

      I believe the more open source projects we have in the community the better.
      And while I would like to see our entire community unite, I don't believe it
      will happen. Too many differnces of opinion for that to resolve.

      So, I really don't see blastwave as competing with JDS, but I want to see
      such an effort that would use KDE and build a community supported desktop,
      that would in a sense compete (if you like to use that term). OpenOffice will
      suffice for the office suite if needed. I don't know if StarOffice will go
      open source or not, but it is included in Solaris as of the current build 66.

      This would give 2 options for folks. If they like GNOME, they could use JDS,
      and if they like KDE they could use a community developed desktop.

      You could extend it even furture and create a WindowMaker desktop, or a
      sawfish desktop, twvm desktop, fvwm desktop, etc...

      --

      Alan DuBoff
      Software Orchestration
      GPG: 1024D/B7A9EBEE 5E00 57CD 5336 5E0B 288B 4126 0D49 0D99 B7A9 EBEE
    • palowoda
      ... to see ... desktop, ... OpenOffice will ... will go ... build 66. ... use JDS, ... But the Blastwave package already has more up to date Gnome. Actually I
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 1, 2004
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        --- In solarisx86@yahoogroups.com, Alan DuBoff <aland@s...> wrote:

        > So, I really don't see blastwave as competing with JDS, but I want
        to see
        > such an effort that would use KDE and build a community supported
        desktop,
        > that would in a sense compete (if you like to use that term).
        OpenOffice will
        > suffice for the office suite if needed. I don't know if StarOffice
        will go
        > open source or not, but it is included in Solaris as of the current
        build 66.
        >
        > This would give 2 options for folks. If they like GNOME, they could
        use JDS,
        > and if they like KDE they could use a community developed desktop.


        But the Blastwave package already has more up to date Gnome.
        Actually I suspect by the time JDS ships there will be a
        newer Gnome than the one in JDS. One huge benifit of the
        Blastwave packages is that it has a lot of GTK based applications
        that do kind of enhance the JDS. It seems to me that
        corporate packages are defined as "limited or striped distributions"
        thus and hopefully reducing support costs. I don't know if you
        can remove the Gnome from the Blastwave collection as that is
        what is used to test the application compatiblity against.

        Ian has in interesting idea packaging up KDE with Gnome in the
        JDS.

        So what are we all trying to define here that we have two types
        of user bases one by Sun aka JDS and the other Blastwave. I like
        both but unlike Redhat or Suse or all the other distributions
        of a competing product this leads us (and the poor sales critters)
        to define a user to an environment.

        Both JDS and Blastwave are big accomplishments for Solaris. JDS
        can include proprietary applications where Blastwave cannot.
        Hopefully it's not going to be a headache for an ISV that
        creates applications to recommend one or the other or both
        because of dependencies.

        Ladies and Gentlemen start your engines, it's only going to get
        better.

        ---Bob
      • Alan DuBoff
        ... Why spend time working on GNOME when Sun is working on it. I don t care about having the very latest, Sun does the work that integrates the components and
        Message 3 of 19 , Sep 1, 2004
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          On Wednesday 01 September 2004 00:51, palowoda wrote:
          > But the Blastwave package already has more up to date Gnome.

          Why spend time working on GNOME when Sun is working on it. I don't care about
          having the very latest, Sun does the work that integrates the components and
          fixes many of the issues that exist. Presumably they put those back to the
          source, I don't know. With the amount of folks that Sun has working on GNOME,
          why should the community spend effort duplicating their work? I don't see the
          value I guess.

          > Ian has in interesting idea packaging up KDE with Gnome in the
          > JDS.

          Yeah, but I'm very happy with KDE and no GNOME apps.

          > So what are we all trying to define here that we have two types
          > of user bases one by Sun aka JDS and the other Blastwave.

          I don't know I'm trying to define a blastwave opposition, but rather a JDS
          opposition. Sun is trying to support blastwave though, so those that do want
          to work on a blastwave effort can do so.

          > Both JDS and Blastwave are big accomplishments for Solaris.

          Absolutely.

          > JDS
          > can include proprietary applications where Blastwave cannot.

          But JDS doesn't include much proprietary with the exception of StarOffice.
          And it can be replaced with OpenOffice for the most part.

          > Hopefully it's not going to be a headache for an ISV that
          > creates applications to recommend one or the other or both
          > because of dependencies.

          No, I don't think so.

          > Ladies and Gentlemen start your engines, it's only going to get
          > better.

          And fasten your seatbelts.

          --

          Alan DuBoff
          Software Orchestration
          GPG: 1024D/B7A9EBEE 5E00 57CD 5336 5E0B 288B 4126 0D49 0D99 B7A9 EBEE
        • palowoda
          ... care about ... components and ... Are you suggesting the Blastwave developers should be linking to Sun s GTK libraries? ... on GNOME, ... don t see the ...
          Message 4 of 19 , Sep 1, 2004
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            --- In solarisx86@yahoogroups.com, Alan DuBoff <aland@s...> wrote:
            > On Wednesday 01 September 2004 00:51, palowoda wrote:
            > > But the Blastwave package already has more up to date Gnome.
            >
            > Why spend time working on GNOME when Sun is working on it. I don't
            care about
            > having the very latest, Sun does the work that integrates the
            components and
            > fixes many of the issues that exist.

            Are you suggesting the Blastwave developers should be linking
            to Sun's GTK libraries?


            > Presumably they put those back to the
            > source, I don't know. With the amount of folks that Sun has working
            on GNOME,
            > why should the community spend effort duplicating their work? I
            don't see the
            > value I guess.

            Sun works on putbacks for accessiblity but that is rather a
            small part of Gnome. Nothing to write home about.


            >
            > > Ian has in interesting idea packaging up KDE with Gnome in the
            > > JDS.
            >
            > Yeah, but I'm very happy with KDE and no GNOME apps.

            Actually a lot of the GTK apps work with KDE with no problem.
            There currently is no distingishing feature of a KDE vs Gnome
            application that is outstanding. (bar the accessablity which
            I swear is not cutting the mustard for revenue generation).


            >
            > > So what are we all trying to define here that we have two types
            > > of user bases one by Sun aka JDS and the other Blastwave.
            >
            > I don't know I'm trying to define a blastwave opposition, but rather
            a JDS
            > opposition. Sun is trying to support blastwave though, so those that
            do want
            > to work on a blastwave effort can do so.

            Ok you give them some machines a little bandwidth but now what is
            the next step in support?



            >
            > > Both JDS and Blastwave are big accomplishments for Solaris.
            >
            > Absolutely.
            >
            > > JDS
            > > can include proprietary applications where Blastwave cannot.
            >
            > But JDS doesn't include much proprietary with the exception of
            StarOffice.
            > And it can be replaced with OpenOffice for the most part.

            But StarOffice wasn't really Sun's product to begin with. It
            was a proprietary third party product which Sun bought. You
            mean to tell me Sun dosn't want any other ISV selling something
            they created to run on the Solaris JDS desktop? Or at least
            I haven't seen Sun telling their ISV to create open source
            applications for JDS lately.


            >
            > > Hopefully it's not going to be a headache for an ISV that
            > > creates applications to recommend one or the other or both
            > > because of dependencies.
            >
            > No, I don't think so.

            Than what your saying is the 'mplayer' application you got
            from blastwave should have not downloaded the 200 or so megabytes of
            dependencies and that your going to work in convincing the Blastwave
            team that it was not needed right? They should have used the?

            >
            > > Ladies and Gentlemen start your engines, it's only going to get
            > > better.
            >
            > And fasten your seatbelts.
            >

            Damn christmas tree isn't working.

            ---Bob
          • Phillip B Bruce
            ... Bob, I ll really don t see how. Phillip
            Message 5 of 19 , Sep 1, 2004
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              palowoda wrote:
              >
              > I'm curious do some people think that Blastwave competes
              > with JDS? Beside the obvious StarOffice in JDS feature.
              >
              > ---Bob
              Bob,

              I'll really don't see how.

              Phillip
            • palowoda
              ... Which Gnome do you use and why?
              Message 6 of 19 , Sep 1, 2004
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                --- In solarisx86@yahoogroups.com, Phillip B Bruce <pbbruce@m...> wrote:
                > palowoda wrote:
                > >
                > > I'm curious do some people think that Blastwave competes
                > > with JDS? Beside the obvious StarOffice in JDS feature.
                > >
                > > ---Bob
                > Bob,
                >
                > I'll really don't see how.
                >

                Which Gnome do you use and why?

                ---Bob
              • Phillip B Bruce
                ... Bob, If I use Gnome at all..I mostly use CDE, KDE or XFCE. Phillip
                Message 7 of 19 , Sep 1, 2004
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                  palowoda wrote:
                  > --- In solarisx86@yahoogroups.com, Phillip B Bruce <pbbruce@m...> wrote:
                  > > palowoda wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > I'm curious do some people think that Blastwave competes
                  > > > with JDS? Beside the obvious StarOffice in JDS feature.
                  > > >
                  > > > ---Bob
                  > > Bob,
                  > >
                  > > I'll really don't see how.
                  > >
                  >
                  > Which Gnome do you use and why?
                  >
                  > ---Bob
                  Bob,

                  If I use Gnome at all..I mostly use CDE, KDE or XFCE.

                  Phillip
                • Ben Taylor
                  ... I suspect they are building it because they have: 1) the wherewithall to do it 2) have the time to do it 3) want the latest code now instead of 6 months
                  Message 8 of 19 , Sep 1, 2004
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                    Alan DuBoff <aland@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > On Wednesday 01 September 2004 00:51, palowoda wrote:
                    > > But the Blastwave package already has more up to date Gnome.
                    >
                    > Why spend time working on GNOME when Sun is working on it.

                    I suspect they are building it because they have:
                    1) the wherewithall to do it
                    2) have the time to do it
                    3) want the latest code now instead of 6 months down the
                    road, only to find that it's stripped down and not nearly
                    as integrated as they'd like it to be
                    4) they learn something from doing it
                    5) hope that their changes back to the source helps Sun's
                    Gnome team not bang their head on the wall on the problem
                    they did. (I must have reported 14 bugs to one of the
                    developers, with fixes, when Gnome 1.4 was released, because
                    I had already banged my head on that wall...)

                    > I don't care about
                    > having the very latest, Sun does the work that integrates the components and
                    > fixes many of the issues that exist.

                    I think we'll disagree here. The 2.0 is so stripped down
                    that the SE's and Marketing don't want us showing it, and
                    rather want JDS2 on Linux. However, as I've not been
                    doing much with Gnome lately, I can't really tell if
                    the JDS is as comparable with some of the latest Morphix,
                    SuSE or Redhat distros.


                    >Presumably they put those back to the
                    > source, I don't know. With the amount of folks that Sun has working on GNOME,
                    > why should the community spend effort duplicating their work?

                    It's called pre-work. I showed why the community actually
                    has good precedence for doing this. Sun's slower to
                    market a product because of the "process". The community
                    does not have to wait for the process. They just go do it
                    and fold back the changes, and hopefully Sun's engineers
                    don't have to bounce of the bugs that the early adopters
                    of the latest-greatest-Gnome did.

                    > I don't see the
                    > value I guess.

                    Unfortunate.

                    >
                    > > Ian has in interesting idea packaging up KDE with Gnome in the
                    > > JDS.
                    >
                    > Yeah, but I'm very happy with KDE and no GNOME apps.

                    To each their own.

                    >
                    > > So what are we all trying to define here that we have two types
                    > > of user bases one by Sun aka JDS and the other Blastwave.
                    >
                    > I don't know I'm trying to define a blastwave opposition, but rather a JDS
                    > opposition. Sun is trying to support blastwave though, so those that do want
                    > to work on a blastwave effort can do so.

                    Consider Blastwave *cutting edge* JDS. Some folks like
                    having the bleeding edge stuff. Others are happy having
                    a minimalistic supported product.

                    However, I don't think the two projects are at odds.
                    Clearly, having the community bust their butts (and let
                    me say a big thank you to all of them) to get the latest
                    code out only helps Solaris out. If JDS comes out looking
                    like a poor second to a Blastwave workstation, is that
                    Blastwave's fault? ;-)


                    > > Hopefully it's not going to be a headache for an ISV that
                    > > creates applications to recommend one or the other or both
                    > > because of dependencies.
                    >
                    > No, I don't think so.

                    A hassle, but shouldn't really be a big issue to use
                    LU to have JDS on one slice and Blastwave on the other.
                    Other than having two sets of distributions, but that's
                    probably safer than trying to dual use the library paths
                    and having to "validate" each and every library and
                    package to verify the install.

                    >
                    > > Ladies and Gentlemen start your engines, it's only going to get
                    > > better.
                    >
                    > And fasten your seatbelts.

                    Your seatbelt hasn't been on?????? :-)

                    Ben
                  • Philip Brown
                    ... what JDS apps ? other than realplayer, is there anything that doesnt already ship from blastwave.org? (seeing as how you can get the blastwave KDE plus
                    Message 9 of 19 , Sep 3, 2004
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                      --- In solarisx86@yahoogroups.com, Ian Collins <masuma.ian@q...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Now if we could package all of the JDS apps with KDE on one CD, that
                      > that would be an interesting competitor!
                      >

                      what "JDS apps" ?

                      other than realplayer, is there anything that doesnt already ship from
                      blastwave.org?
                      (seeing as how you can get the blastwave "KDE plus those other apps"
                      on a single DVD now ;-)
                    • Philip Brown
                      ... couldnt if we wanted to. sun doesnt keep them up to date fast enough. As far as I remember, when we started doing our own GNOME, we HAD to,because the apps
                      Message 10 of 19 , Sep 3, 2004
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                        --- In solarisx86@yahoogroups.com, "palowoda" <palowoda@f...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Are you suggesting the Blastwave developers should be linking
                        > to Sun's GTK libraries?
                        >
                        >

                        couldnt if we wanted to. sun doesnt keep them up to date fast enough.
                        As far as I remember, when we started doing our own GNOME, we HAD
                        to,because the apps we wanted to offer people required a more recent
                        version of gtk, etc, etc.
                        Not to mention that WE SUPPORT SOLARIS 8! I dont think sun supports
                        modern gnome on sol8 now
                      • Philip Brown
                        ... well, it would have been really nice to have Solaris-JDS GNOME in one DIRECTORY, and blastwave GNOME in /opt/csw... but sun s kinda screwed that one up, by
                        Message 11 of 19 , Sep 3, 2004
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                          --- In solarisx86@yahoogroups.com, Ben Taylor <sol10x86@c...> wrote:
                          >
                          > A hassle, but shouldn't really be a big issue to use
                          > LU to have JDS on one slice and Blastwave on the other.

                          well, it would have been really nice to have Solaris-JDS GNOME in one
                          DIRECTORY, and blastwave GNOME in /opt/csw... but sun's kinda screwed
                          that one up, by shoving it in /usr/lib

                          I was chatting to Randy Fishel yesterday, and he said sun is kinda
                          stuck with it for sol10, and getting it moved somewhere would take
                          pre-announcing it for solaris 11.

                          I replied, "okay... lets get the ball rolling on that now!"
                        • Alan Coopersmith
                          ... StarOffice/StarSuite and some of the little Java utilities, off the top of my head. Probably not much more than that. (At least in the current JDS for
                          Message 12 of 19 , Sep 4, 2004
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                            Philip Brown wrote:
                            > --- In solarisx86@yahoogroups.com, Ian Collins <masuma.ian@q...> wrote:
                            >
                            >>Now if we could package all of the JDS apps with KDE on one CD, that
                            >>that would be an interesting competitor!
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            > what "JDS apps" ?
                            >
                            > other than realplayer, is there anything that doesnt already ship from
                            > blastwave.org?

                            StarOffice/StarSuite and some of the little Java utilities, off the top
                            of my head. Probably not much more than that. (At least in the current
                            JDS for Solaris builds.)

                            --
                            -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@...
                            Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering
                          • Alan Coopersmith
                            ... Depends on your definition of modern - GNOME 2.0 is supported on Solaris 8, but nothing newer is currently available from Sun. (Of course, the only
                            Message 13 of 19 , Sep 4, 2004
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                              Philip Brown wrote:
                              > Not to mention that WE SUPPORT SOLARIS 8! I dont think sun supports
                              > modern gnome on sol8 now

                              Depends on your definition of "modern" - GNOME 2.0 is supported on
                              Solaris 8, but nothing newer is currently available from Sun. (Of
                              course, the only newer GNOME available from Sun for any Solaris
                              right now is the GNOME 2.6 in the JDS3 beta for Solaris Express,
                              so Solaris 8 isn't that far out of date.)

                              --
                              -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@...
                              Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering
                            • Philip Brown
                              ... Oh yeah.. Ummm.. solaris still doesnt run gnome 2.6 from sun. officially :-) have they updated solaris express past build 60 now?
                              Message 14 of 19 , Sep 4, 2004
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                                --- In solarisx86@yahoogroups.com, Alan Coopersmith
                                <alan.coopersmith@s...> wrote:
                                > Philip Brown wrote:
                                > > Not to mention that WE SUPPORT SOLARIS 8! I dont think sun supports
                                > > modern gnome on sol8 now
                                >
                                > Depends on your definition of "modern" - GNOME 2.0 is supported on
                                > Solaris 8, but nothing newer is currently available from Sun. (Of
                                > course, the only newer GNOME available from Sun for any Solaris
                                > right now is the GNOME 2.6 in the JDS3 beta for Solaris Express,

                                Oh yeah.. Ummm.. solaris still doesnt run gnome 2.6 from sun.
                                officially :-)

                                have they updated solaris express past build 60 now?
                              • palowoda
                                ... The APOC extensions to Mozilla also. But like I said JDS encourages development of proprietary extensions and that is a key difference between that and
                                Message 15 of 19 , Sep 4, 2004
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                                  --- In solarisx86@yahoogroups.com, Alan Coopersmith
                                  <alan.coopersmith@s...> wrote:
                                  > Philip Brown wrote:
                                  > > --- In solarisx86@yahoogroups.com, Ian Collins <masuma.ian@q...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >>Now if we could package all of the JDS apps with KDE on one CD, that
                                  > >>that would be an interesting competitor!
                                  > >>
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > what "JDS apps" ?
                                  > >
                                  > > other than realplayer, is there anything that doesnt already ship from
                                  > > blastwave.org?
                                  >
                                  > StarOffice/StarSuite and some of the little Java utilities, off the top
                                  > of my head. Probably not much more than that. (At least in the current
                                  > JDS for Solaris builds.)
                                  >

                                  The APOC extensions to Mozilla also. But like I said JDS
                                  encourages development of proprietary extensions and that
                                  is a key difference between that and Blastwave. I'm saying
                                  that as a good thing. Speeding up JDS lag time is another
                                  issue. It would be kind of scary if the core libs where
                                  closely syncronized between the Blastwave and JDS platforms.
                                  In the meantime the one must consider which one to link too
                                  and package their product.

                                  ---Bob
                                • maybird1776
                                  ... The Gnome build at Blastwave provides a test platform to deliver the 500+ Gnome apps (http://freshmeat.net/browse/58/) for Sun JDS or Blastwave s Gnome
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Sep 4, 2004
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                                    --- In solarisx86@yahoogroups.com, "palowoda" <palowoda@f...> wrote:
                                    > The APOC extensions to Mozilla also. But like I said JDS
                                    > encourages development of proprietary extensions and that
                                    > is a key difference between that and Blastwave. I'm saying
                                    > that as a good thing. Speeding up JDS lag time is another
                                    > issue. It would be kind of scary if the core libs where
                                    > closely syncronized between the Blastwave and JDS platforms.
                                    > In the meantime the one must consider which one to link too
                                    > and package their product.
                                    >
                                    > ---Bob

                                    The Gnome build at Blastwave provides a test platform to deliver the
                                    500+ Gnome apps (http://freshmeat.net/browse/58/) for Sun JDS or
                                    Blastwave's Gnome 2.6.2/2.8.x.

                                    ~K
                                    P.S. Gnome 2.8RC1 has a few issues building cleanly on Solaris 8
                                    (needs a lot of X extensions and other tweaks). Seems like Solaris 10
                                    may be my default OS as things progress....
                                  • Alan Coopersmith
                                    ... The 8/04 release was build 63. -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Sep 5, 2004
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                                      Philip Brown wrote:
                                      > have they updated solaris express past build 60 now?

                                      The 8/04 release was build 63.

                                      --
                                      -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@...
                                      Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering
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