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Re: [solarisx86] Media: Sun mulls buying Novell

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  • Bruce Riddle
    ... They still make the chips.
    Message 1 of 20 , Aug 2 1:41 PM
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      On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, D Evers wrote:

      > The G5 is PowerPC based...
      >
      > For those that are curious:
      > http://images.apple.com/powermac/pdf/PowerPCG5_WP_06092004.pdf
      >
      > I don't know if IBM actually builds any PowerPC systems anymore.
      > I thought that they were all Power4 based. (Power5?)
      >
      They still make the chips.
    • Keith Bierman
      ... and the JS20 (blade) http://www-1.ibm.com/servers/eserver/bladecenter/js20/more_info.html -- Keith H. Bierman keith.bierman@Sun.COM| Sun Microsystems
      Message 2 of 20 , Aug 2 1:44 PM
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        Bruce Riddle wrote:

        >
        >
        > On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, D Evers wrote:
        >
        > > The G5 is PowerPC based...
        > >
        > > For those that are curious:
        > > http://images.apple.com/powermac/pdf/PowerPCG5_WP_06092004.pdf
        > >
        > > I don't know if IBM actually builds any PowerPC systems anymore.
        > > I thought that they were all Power4 based. (Power5?)
        > >
        > They still make the chips.

        and the JS20 (blade)
        http://www-1.ibm.com/servers/eserver/bladecenter/js20/more_info.html

        --
        Keith H. Bierman keith.bierman@...|
        Sun Microsystems PAE | kbierman@...
        <speaking for myself, not Sun*> Copyright 2004
      • Phillip B Bruce
        ... Keith, Try that again. Power PC are drastically differernt from the G4 and G5. Power PC are made by IBM. G4 and G5 are made by Motorola. Phillip
        Message 3 of 20 , Aug 2 1:47 PM
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          Keith Bierman wrote:
          > Tu Holmes wrote:
          >
          > >
          > > No... Power4 and Power5... What the Apple G5 (Power5)
          > > is based on.
          >
          > Putting aside any question of solaris, I believe that the Apple systems
          > are PPC (Power PC) based, which differ from the Power series (the
          > current models are a Power 4 derivative, single core, but with
          > additional Apple/Moto multimedia instructions added). From various
          > claims in the open press, it would seem that the next generation PPC
          > chip may well continue to be Power4 based, but have two cores. However,
          > if anyone has actual data from IBM or Apple, that would be wonderful
          > (and not because I'll be involved in porting solaris to it ;>)
          >
          Keith,

          Try that again. Power PC are drastically differernt from the
          G4 and G5. Power PC are made by IBM. G4 and G5 are made by
          Motorola.

          Phillip
        • Keith Bierman
          ... Since this is a solaris x86 group, it s easy to understand why folks might not have memorized their Apple/Motorola/IBM history and product names. However,
          Message 4 of 20 , Aug 2 2:03 PM
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            Phillip B Bruce wrote:

            > Keith Bierman wrote:
            > > Tu Holmes wrote:
            > >
            > > >
            > > > No... Power4 and Power5... What the Apple G5 (Power5)
            > > > is based on.
            > >
            > > ll be involved in porting solaris to it ;>)
            > >
            > Keith,
            >
            > Try that again. Power PC are drastically different from the
            > G4 and G5. Power PC are made by IBM. G4 and G5 are made by
            > Motorola.

            Since this is a solaris x86 group, it's easy to understand why folks
            might not have memorized their Apple/Motorola/IBM history and product names.

            However, I am quite sure that what Apple calles "G5" is what IBM calls
            PPC 970, and that the pipeline is Power4 derived. See
            http://arstechnica.com/cpu/02q2/ppc970/ppc970-1.html for a detailed
            writeup. Not quite as detailed as you can find at microprocessor
            reports, but that's an expensive subscription service, and I presume
            that most participants of this forum aren't MPR readers (or we wouldn't
            be having this discussion ;>)

            IBM was the original creator of the entire Power architecture family. A
            joint development with Motorola and Apple resulted in the definition of
            the PowerPC derivatives (which, as I said, has additional multimedia
            "altivec" instructions). The current G5's are derivied from the IBM
            Power4 cores (at least by all accounts and detailed analysis ... I don't
            believe anyone outside of IBM really gets to review the RTL :>, but you
            can tell a lot about the pipelines).

            Motorola and Apple parted ways, IBM was said to be viewed as being able
            to deliever on their commitments (by implication, that Motorola was not.
            But the recent slipping of the G5+ @ 3GHz may make the Apple folks
            reconsider .. but it's unclear that they have much choice, Motorola has
            been spinning off the CPU fab biz)

            --
            Keith H. Bierman keith.bierman@...|
            Sun Microsystems PAE | kbierman@...
            <speaking for myself, not Sun*> Copyright 2004
          • Phillip B Bruce
            ... Keith, I did look at the G5 on Apple web site. It seems that is what the G5 really is: http://www.apple.com/g5processor/architecture.html But motorola and
            Message 5 of 20 , Aug 2 3:45 PM
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              Keith Bierman wrote:
              >
              > Since this is a solaris x86 group, it's easy to understand why folks
              > might not have memorized their Apple/Motorola/IBM history and product names.
              >
              > However, I am quite sure that what Apple calles "G5" is what IBM calls
              > PPC 970, and that the pipeline is Power4 derived. See
              > http://arstechnica.com/cpu/02q2/ppc970/ppc970-1.html for a detailed
              > writeup. Not quite as detailed as you can find at microprocessor
              > reports, but that's an expensive subscription service, and I presume
              > that most participants of this forum aren't MPR readers (or we wouldn't
              > be having this discussion ;>)

              >
              > IBM was the original creator of the entire Power architecture family. A
              > joint development with Motorola and Apple resulted in the definition of
              > the PowerPC derivatives (which, as I said, has additional multimedia
              > "altivec" instructions). The current G5's are derivied from the IBM
              > Power4 cores (at least by all accounts and detailed analysis ... I don't
              > believe anyone outside of IBM really gets to review the RTL :>, but you
              > can tell a lot about the pipelines).
              >
              > Motorola and Apple parted ways, IBM was said to be viewed as being able
              > to deliever on their commitments (by implication, that Motorola was not.
              > But the recent slipping of the G5+ @ 3GHz may make the Apple folks
              > reconsider .. but it's unclear that they have much choice, Motorola has
              > been spinning off the CPU fab biz)
              Keith,

              I did look at the G5 on Apple web site. It seems that is what the
              G5 really is: http://www.apple.com/g5processor/architecture.html

              But motorola and apple are not parting ways
              http://www.motorola.com/mediacenter/news/detail/0,,4505_3838_23,00.html

              Just Motorola and Apple are not concentrating on processor side as
              they once did.

              Since PowerPC were once running on Solaris and as I understand it.
              IBM did a lot to changing to the processor so much that gave Sun
              enough headaches to drop it back then. I hope that it won't be the
              same issues again.

              If it gets to where Sun does get Solaris working on a PowerPC then
              all the better as it will certainly give the apple user community
              another flavor of OS's to run on those systems as well the IBM
              users too.

              Phillip
            • Keith Bierman
              ... and this is not an IBM PPC970 how? The Apple description is a lot less technically detailed than IBM, Ars, MPR or anyone else... ... Spin it as you will,
              Message 6 of 20 , Aug 2 3:55 PM
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                Phillip B Bruce wrote:

                >
                > I did look at the G5 on Apple web site. It seems that is what the
                > G5 really is: http://www.apple.com/g5processor/architecture.html

                and this is not an IBM PPC970 how? The Apple description is a lot less
                technically detailed than IBM, Ars, MPR or anyone else...

                >
                >
                > But motorola and apple are not parting ways
                > http://www.motorola.com/mediacenter/news/detail/0,,4505_3838_23,00.html
                >
                > Just Motorola and Apple are not concentrating on processor side as
                > they once did.

                Spin it as you will, Motorola isn't building CPU's for Apple anymore.
                Apple was about the only customer for the PPC out of their fab. As best
                I can tell, most of the staff went elsewhere when Apple switched to IBM.

                >
                >
                > Since PowerPC were once running on Solaris and as I understand it.
                > IBM did a lot to changing to the processor so much that gave Sun
                > enough headaches to drop it back then.

                I'm unaware of any fundamental technical issues. what platforms to
                support is usually a business decison.

                >
                > If it gets to where Sun does get Solaris working on a PowerPC then
                > all the better as it will certainly give the apple user community
                > another flavor of OS's to run on those systems as well the IBM
                > users too.

                It would remain two separate (but related) ports. the ISA changes will
                remain nonzero, as far as I know.

                I'm unaware of any interest by mac users in alternative OS's. We have
                several macs in our household so I have some contact with the mac
                faithful :>


                --
                Keith H. Bierman keith.bierman@...|
                <speaking for myself, not Sun*> Copyright 2004
              • Phillip B Bruce
                ... Keith, Regardless of the detail. The fact the article clears states IBM makes it. Is all I need to know anymore these days. Phillip
                Message 7 of 20 , Aug 2 4:00 PM
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                  Keith Bierman wrote:
                  > Phillip B Bruce wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  > > I did look at the G5 on Apple web site. It seems that is what the
                  > > G5 really is: http://www.apple.com/g5processor/architecture.html
                  >
                  > and this is not an IBM PPC970 how? The Apple description is a lot less
                  > technically detailed than IBM, Ars, MPR or anyone else...
                  Keith,

                  Regardless of the detail. The fact the article clears states IBM
                  makes it. Is all I need to know anymore these days.

                  Phillip
                • John Martinez
                  ... Nope, the new G5 is made by IBM, not Motorola. Motorola still makes the G4, though. -john
                  Message 8 of 20 , Aug 3 12:02 PM
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                    On Aug 2, 2004, at 1:47 PM, Phillip B Bruce wrote:

                    > Keith,
                    >
                    > Try that again. Power PC are drastically differernt from the
                    > G4 and G5. Power PC are made by IBM. G4 and G5 are made by
                    > Motorola.

                    Nope, the new G5 is made by IBM, not Motorola. Motorola still makes the
                    G4, though.

                    <http://www.apple.com/g5processor/>

                    -john
                  • John Martinez
                    ... I think it is a viable alternative and should be carefully weighed as Apple is wanting to break into the enterprise with Mac OS X. I use Mac OS X on a
                    Message 9 of 20 , Aug 3 12:06 PM
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                      On Aug 2, 2004, at 3:45 PM, Phillip B Bruce wrote:

                      > If it gets to where Sun does get Solaris working on a PowerPC then
                      > all the better as it will certainly give the apple user community
                      > another flavor of OS's to run on those systems as well the IBM
                      > users too.

                      I think it is a viable alternative and should be carefully weighed as
                      Apple is wanting to break into the enterprise with Mac OS X. I use Mac
                      OS X on a daily basis as a desktop and enjoy it too much, or else I
                      would consider Solaris on it. Sun has a steep hill to climb if it wants
                      to compete on the desktop of my PowerBook and G5 PowerMac. Apple
                      applications and GUIs are the best in the world (think iMovie, iTunes,
                      Final Cut Pro, etc.). Even Microsoft is trying to catch up. But I'm
                      biased at this point, so you don't have to listen to me.

                      -john
                    • Phillip B Bruce
                      ... John, That what I thought but ask Keith pointed out and is correct on that Motorola is moving away from making processor chips for apple. I ll guess that
                      Message 10 of 20 , Aug 3 12:43 PM
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                        John Martinez wrote:
                        >
                        > On Aug 2, 2004, at 1:47 PM, Phillip B Bruce wrote:
                        >
                        > > Keith,
                        > >
                        > > Try that again. Power PC are drastically differernt from the
                        > > G4 and G5. Power PC are made by IBM. G4 and G5 are made by
                        > > Motorola.
                        >
                        > Nope, the new G5 is made by IBM, not Motorola. Motorola still makes the
                        > G4, though.
                        >
                        > <http://www.apple.com/g5processor/>
                        >
                        > -john
                        John,

                        That what I thought but ask Keith pointed out and is correct on that
                        Motorola is moving away from making processor chips for apple. I'll
                        guess that will end for sure when the laptops finally get a G5
                        installed. If they can find a way to cool it. Those G5's in the tower
                        have hughe heat sinks in them. Then when you put 2 of them in one
                        box. No wonder apple hasn't come out with the G5's for laptop yet.

                        But what I failed to realize that G4 and G5 both use PowerPC
                        instruction set. They do have an impressive pipleline architecture
                        in thos processor compared to any processors on the market and
                        that includes the sparc's.

                        But I'd like to see the Sparc IV processors as they have the
                        CMT techonology which is in a way like the hyperthreading
                        technology Intel's is using in the P4's.

                        Phillip
                      • Phillip B Bruce
                        ... John, I don t think anyone would argue your point. But I think Sun hopes that the JDS would fill that gap.
                        Message 11 of 20 , Aug 3 12:45 PM
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                          John Martinez wrote:
                          >
                          > On Aug 2, 2004, at 3:45 PM, Phillip B Bruce wrote:
                          >
                          > > If it gets to where Sun does get Solaris working on a PowerPC then
                          > > all the better as it will certainly give the apple user community
                          > > another flavor of OS's to run on those systems as well the IBM
                          > > users too.
                          >
                          > I think it is a viable alternative and should be carefully weighed as
                          > Apple is wanting to break into the enterprise with Mac OS X. I use Mac
                          > OS X on a daily basis as a desktop and enjoy it too much, or else I
                          > would consider Solaris on it. Sun has a steep hill to climb if it wants
                          > to compete on the desktop of my PowerBook and G5 PowerMac. Apple
                          > applications and GUIs are the best in the world (think iMovie, iTunes,
                          > Final Cut Pro, etc.). Even Microsoft is trying to catch up. But I'm
                          > biased at this point, so you don't have to listen to me.
                          >
                          > -john
                          John,

                          I don't think anyone would argue your point. But I think Sun hopes
                          that the JDS would fill that gap.
                        • Laurent Blume
                          ... [snip] I thought Motorola was now concentrating mostly on the mobile phone business. Actually, a quick search on their site showed that they separated the
                          Message 12 of 20 , Aug 3 1:10 PM
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                            On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Phillip B Bruce wrote:
                            >
                            > That what I thought but ask Keith pointed out and is correct on that
                            > Motorola is moving away from making processor chips for apple. I'll
                            [snip]

                            I thought Motorola was now concentrating mostly on the mobile phone business.
                            Actually, a quick search on their site showed that they separated the PowerPC
                            to a company they still own, Freescale, which itself seems to be targetting the
                            embedded processors business (with G4 CPUs).

                            http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/homepage.jsp?nodeId=018rH3bTdG

                            Laurent
                            --
                            A hundred thousand lemmings can't be wrong!
                          • John D Groenveld
                            In message , D Evers writes ... ...
                            Message 13 of 20 , Aug 7 11:16 AM
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                              In message <20040802201835.88319.qmail@...>, D Evers writes
                              :
                              >Maybe Sun is hoping to get bought by IBM?

                              <URL:http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1631880,00.asp>
                              | Returning to the subject of the media, IBM officials weren't too happy
                              | with their media coverage at LinuxWorld, either. It wasn't that IBM
                              | was getting bad press; it was more that no one was paying it much
                              | attention.

                              <URL:http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/08/05/sun_linuxworld_plays/>
                              | After stealing the spotlight on day one of LinuxWorld, Sun
                              | Microsystems settled down and managed to make some actual product
                              | announcements at the show.

                              John
                              groenveld@...
                            • Keith Bierman
                              SANTA CLARA, Calif.  October 20, 2004  Sun Microsystems, Inc. (Nasdaq: SUNW), the creator and leading advocate of Java(tm) technology, today announced
                              Message 14 of 20 , Oct 20, 2004
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                                SANTA CLARA, Calif.  October 20, 2004  Sun Microsystems, Inc.
                                (Nasdaq: SUNW), the creator and leading advocate of Java(tm)
                                technology, today announced the availability of the latest version
                                of its breakthrough visual development environment, Sun Java(tm)
                                Studio Creator. Available as a free upgrade, the new version now
                                supports Mac OS X and the Solaris(tm) Operating System (x86 Platform
                                Edition). This offering gives x86 and Mac developers access to the
                                greater ease of use and performance features from Java Studio Creator
                                and the Java platform. Mac developers looking for expert advice and
                                information on Java-related topics, including Java Studio Creator,
                                are invited to visit the vibrant Mac Java community at
                                http://community.java.net/mac. In addition, this marks the first
                                multilanguage release of the product, with support for Japanese and
                                simplified Chinese.

                                ....

                                --
                                Keith H. Bierman keith.bierman@...|
                                Sun Microsystems PAE | kbierman@...
                                12 Network Circle UMPK 12-325 | 650-352-4432 voice+fax
                                Menlo Park, California 94025 | sun internal 68207
                                <speaking for myself, not Sun*> Copyright 2004
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