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Childbirth Curriculum

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  • completebeginnings
    So what you would like seen taught/discussed by an organization training childbirth educators? I ask because I am helping write such a curriculum. This is a
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 1, 2010
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      So what you would like seen taught/discussed by an organization training childbirth educators? I ask because I am helping write such a curriculum. This is a nation wide curriculum. Thoughts?
      Dy in Utah
    • jenneology
      Its a good question though you probably won t like our answer. Jennifer and I have discussed this idea in depth and the answer comes down to: it s not about
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 1, 2010
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        Its a good question though you probably won't like our answer. Jennifer and I have discussed this idea in depth and the answer comes down to: it's not about educating women on how not to be traumatized. Its educating providers on how not to traumatize women. When there are providers who are pulling the bait and switch and then performing procedures, exams and surgeries on women despite their protests, no amount of preparation, advocacy or planning on the woman's part is going to protect her from trauma.

        In fact, in our experience, a woman who is more prepared and knows the risks of what is happening to her is more likely to be traumatized.

        Women who are highly prepared and know the risks of induction, epidurals, c-sections, drugs in labor, etc. are more upset when these things are pushed on them or they feel manipulated, coerced or forced to comply with these procedures.

        Solace has made an effort to help protect women from violations of informed consent (which is what we are combatting most in our advocacy efforts) by creating an list of questions that women can ask their providers how they handle situations where consent is required. The link to that document is: http://www.solaceformothers.org/informed_consent_tool.html

        To the extent that women can prepare themselves and reduce their chances of trauma, the ideals of normal birth are the most likely way to not be traumatized. A trusting relationship with a care provider can help reduce trauma in the event of an emergency or concerning situation that arises during labor and birth. If the provider is committed to informed consent, counseling and being sensitive to the emotional as well as medical needs of a mother and child, a woman can feel supported and helped through an experience that could be traumatizing. I've heard of women who come away from a terrifying experience grateful that they were treated as gently and lovingly as they were. Their treatment can be a comfort to them rather than a compounding factor in their trauma and grief.

        All that said, there is a need for women to be encouraged to trust birth and know that they are capable of it. Women have internalized the message that hospitals are needed, interventions are needed and doctors are needed. Interestingly, these are not the women we see coming to Solace feeling they've been traumatized. Yet it seems like among this group of women trauma does happen because 1 in 3 care reporting symptoms of trauma after birth. Are these women also more likely to suppress or ignore their trauma because "all that matters is a healthy baby?"

        There's a great deal that still needs to be studied about birth trauma. My hunch is that a great deal of trauma can be prevented but there will be greater reductions when providers change how they act than when women are making the changes. We don't think that CBE is the answer to preventing trauma, unfortunately.


        Jenne
        Moderator and Project Coordinator of Solace for Mothers


        --- In solacesupporters@yahoogroups.com, "completebeginnings" <completebeginnings@...> wrote:
        >
        > So what you would like seen taught/discussed by an organization training childbirth educators? I ask because I am helping write such a curriculum. This is a nation wide curriculum. Thoughts?
        > Dy in Utah
        >
      • Maddy Oden
        Great Question.Great response. Especially the part about women who are informed are the ones who are most traumatized... I think a lot of it has to do with
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 1, 2010
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          Great Question.Great response. Especially the part about women who 
          "are informed" are the ones who are most traumatized... I think a lot of it has to do with our " thought pattern" that says we can "control " the situation. ( as moms in labor).  Not always true... the result is emotional trauma, and or more.
          Maddy
          On Nov 1, 2010, at 3:40 PM, jenneology wrote:

          Its a good question though you probably won't like our answer. Jennifer and I have discussed this idea in depth and the answer comes down to: it's not about educating women on how not to be traumatized. Its educating providers on how not to traumatize women. When there are providers who are pulling the bait and switch and then performing procedures, exams and surgeries on women despite their protests, no amount of preparation, advocacy or planning on the woman's part is going to protect her from trauma.

          In fact, in our experience, a woman who is more prepared and knows the risks of what is happening to her is more likely to be traumatized. 

          Women who are highly prepared and know the risks of induction, epidurals, c-sections, drugs in labor, etc. are more upset when these things are pushed on them or they feel manipulated, coerced or forced to comply with these procedures. 

          Solace has made an effort to help protect women from violations of informed consent (which is what we are combatting most in our advocacy efforts) by creating an list of questions that women can ask their providers how they handle situations where consent is required. The link to that document is: http://www.solaceformothers.org/informed_consent_tool.html

          To the extent that women can prepare themselves and reduce their chances of trauma, the ideals of normal birth are the most likely way to not be traumatized. A trusting relationship with a care provider can help reduce trauma in the event of an emergency or concerning situation that arises during labor and birth. If the provider is committed to informed consent, counseling and being sensitive to the emotional as well as medical needs of a mother and child, a woman can feel supported and helped through an experience that could be traumatizing. I've heard of women who come away from a terrifying experience grateful that they were treated as gently and lovingly as they were. Their treatment can be a comfort to them rather than a compounding factor in their trauma and grief. 

          All that said, there is a need for women to be encouraged to trust birth and know that they are capable of it. Women have internalized the message that hospitals are needed, interventions are needed and doctors are needed. Interestingly, these are not the women we see coming to Solace feeling they've been traumatized. Yet it seems like among this group of women trauma does happen because 1 in 3 care reporting symptoms of trauma after birth. Are these women also more likely to suppress or ignore their trauma because "all that matters is a healthy baby?" 

          There's a great deal that still needs to be studied about birth trauma. My hunch is that a great deal of trauma can be prevented but there will be greater reductions when providers change how they act than when women are making the changes. We don't think that CBE is the answer to preventing trauma, unfortunately. 

          Jenne
          Moderator and Project Coordinator of Solace for Mothers

          --- In solacesupporters@yahoogroups.com, "completebeginnings" <completebeginnings@...> wrote:
          >
          > So what you would like seen taught/discussed by an organization training childbirth educators? I ask because I am helping write such a curriculum. This is a nation wide curriculum. Thoughts? 
          > Dy in Utah
          >


        • womynwyz1
          Yes, great question and fantastic response! I like the idea, Dy...and I have to agree with Jenne and Jennifer on this point. Perhaps a simple presentation on
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 2, 2010
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            Yes, great question and fantastic response! I like the idea, Dy...and I have to agree with Jenne and Jennifer on this point. Perhaps a simple presentation on birth trauma--stating the facts, and the kinds of things that influence a mother's experience of trauma, making resources available--but not trying to 'teach trauma prevention', per se.

            But Maddy--while I agree in a certain way with your assessment, perhaps you don't realize that it kind of sounds like you are advocating for surrender of control. It's certainly true that we need to surrender to birth...but should we be surrendering control to PROVIDERS? Especially, to providers who a) are NOT practicing evidence based care and b) ARE practicing in a manner that violates mothers' bodies and spirits. As mentioned, it's not so much about receiving needed care that might be outside of the mother's dream for her birth--it's about HOW that care is given--whether respectfully and compassionately, or through brute physical or psychological force.

            Can you say more?

            thanks,
            Maggie

            --- In solacesupporters@yahoogroups.com, Maddy Oden <momoden@...> wrote:
            >
            > Great Question.Great response. Especially the part about women who
            > "are informed" are the ones who are most traumatized... I think a lot
            > of it has to do with our " thought pattern" that says we can "control
            > " the situation. ( as moms in labor). Not always true... the result
            > is emotional trauma, and or more.
            > Maddy
          • womynwyz1
            Adding-- Yes, I agree that families need to be strongly encouraged to thoroughly vet their potential care providers--and seek out moms who ve used the provider
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 2, 2010
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              Adding--

              Yes, I agree that families need to be strongly encouraged to thoroughly vet their potential care providers--and seek out moms who've used the provider for references. I see this problem even in the homebirth world: families pick a mw they 'really like', who perhaps has given them references to fams with only positive things to say about the mw...and do not ask the hard questions or seek 'other info' from fams who may be able to say things about a mw that show where she might need improvement, or just not be the best fit for a particular family.

              Anyway--one thing we can do is try to break down this conditioned tendency to 'absolute trust' in providers. And promote families' active empowerment all along the way.

              Maggie

              --- In solacesupporters@yahoogroups.com, "womynwyz1" <womynwise1@...> wrote:
              >
              > Yes, great question and fantastic response! I like the idea, Dy...and I have to agree with Jenne and Jennifer on this point. Perhaps a simple presentation on birth trauma--stating the facts, and the kinds of things that influence a mother's experience of trauma, making resources available--but not trying to 'teach trauma prevention', per se.
              >
              > But Maddy--while I agree in a certain way with your assessment, perhaps you don't realize that it kind of sounds like you are advocating for surrender of control. It's certainly true that we need to surrender to birth...but should we be surrendering control to PROVIDERS? Especially, to providers who a) are NOT practicing evidence based care and b) ARE practicing in a manner that violates mothers' bodies and spirits. As mentioned, it's not so much about receiving needed care that might be outside of the mother's dream for her birth--it's about HOW that care is given--whether respectfully and compassionately, or through brute physical or psychological force.
              >
              > Can you say more?
              >
              > thanks,
              > Maggie
              >
              > --- In solacesupporters@yahoogroups.com, Maddy Oden <momoden@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Great Question.Great response. Especially the part about women who
              > > "are informed" are the ones who are most traumatized... I think a lot
              > > of it has to do with our " thought pattern" that says we can "control
              > > " the situation. ( as moms in labor). Not always true... the result
              > > is emotional trauma, and or more.
              > > Maddy
              >
            • DyAnna Gordon
              Thanks so much for your feedback. I think my ideas were more along the lines of a few pages in the teachers training manual that outlines typical causes of
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 2, 2010
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                Thanks so much for your feedback. I think my ideas were more along the lines of a few pages in the teachers training manual that outlines "typical" causes of trauma as well and signs and symptoms so that if they see it in students (VBAC hopefuls, 2nd time moms trying something different etc. ) they can recognize it and recommend the Solace boards, a support group, offer a listening ear or even have local professionals available to help.   True, the only way to prevent trauma is to work with care providers and informed consent. So reiderating even more the careful choice of a care provider.  I also think teaching tollerance and acceptace of a change in birth it important. Not being ok with doctors and midwives ignoring personal wishes, but teaching that if you are exhauseted and chose and epidural and have other traumatic events occur not beating yourself up for "failing" at the natural birth since I feel like this self induced guilt often makes things worse. Does that make any sense? Also teaching the fact that birthing women are the consumers and helping to overcome the fear that if they "fire" their careproviders that they will be left alone. That even in the moment of birth they still have choices. Please continue with your ideas. I really appreciate them.
                Dy

                On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 7:49 AM, womynwyz1 <womynwise1@...> wrote:
                 

                Adding--

                Yes, I agree that families need to be strongly encouraged to thoroughly vet their potential care providers--and seek out moms who've used the provider for references. I see this problem even in the homebirth world: families pick a mw they 'really like', who perhaps has given them references to fams with only positive things to say about the mw...and do not ask the hard questions or seek 'other info' from fams who may be able to say things about a mw that show where she might need improvement, or just not be the best fit for a particular family.

                Anyway--one thing we can do is try to break down this conditioned tendency to 'absolute trust' in providers. And promote families' active empowerment all along the way.

                Maggie



                --- In solacesupporters@yahoogroups.com, "womynwyz1" <womynwise1@...> wrote:
                >
                > Yes, great question and fantastic response! I like the idea, Dy...and I have to agree with Jenne and Jennifer on this point. Perhaps a simple presentation on birth trauma--stating the facts, and the kinds of things that influence a mother's experience of trauma, making resources available--but not trying to 'teach trauma prevention', per se.
                >
                > But Maddy--while I agree in a certain way with your assessment, perhaps you don't realize that it kind of sounds like you are advocating for surrender of control. It's certainly true that we need to surrender to birth...but should we be surrendering control to PROVIDERS? Especially, to providers who a) are NOT practicing evidence based care and b) ARE practicing in a manner that violates mothers' bodies and spirits. As mentioned, it's not so much about receiving needed care that might be outside of the mother's dream for her birth--it's about HOW that care is given--whether respectfully and compassionately, or through brute physical or psychological force.
                >
                > Can you say more?
                >
                > thanks,
                > Maggie
                >
                > --- In solacesupporters@yahoogroups.com, Maddy Oden <momoden@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Great Question.Great response. Especially the part about women who
                > > "are informed" are the ones who are most traumatized... I think a lot
                > > of it has to do with our " thought pattern" that says we can "control
                > > " the situation. ( as moms in labor). Not always true... the result
                > > is emotional trauma, and or more.
                > > Maddy
                >




                --
                DyAnna Gordon
                Wife of Ben for 9 fabulous years
                Mother to Dannica Noel-12/23/2002
                Harrison Isaac-06/02/2005
                Everett Roger-02/06/2007
                Oliver Mark-10/24/2009

                www.completebeginnings.com
                www.alternativebirthservices.com

              • Maddy Oden
                Nope not suggesting surrender of control at all. Just acknowledging, that no matter how much we prepare, learn, and have in place for the perfect birth , it
                Message 7 of 10 , Nov 2, 2010
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                  Nope not suggesting "surrender of control" at all. Just acknowledging, that no matter how much we prepare, learn, and have in place for the "perfect birth", it does not always turn out that way. I definitely agree that it is very important about How the care is given, attitude of provider etc. Just be conscious of the fact that we can do all these things, and get all the ducks lined up, but in reality it is not 100% in our control. Very thin line, I hope that makes it clearer.
                  Maddy
                  On Nov 2, 2010, at 6:43 AM, womynwyz1 wrote:

                  Yes, great question and fantastic response! I like the idea, Dy...and I have to agree with Jenne and Jennifer on this point. Perhaps a simple presentation on birth trauma--stating the facts, and the kinds of things that influence a mother's experience of trauma, making resources available--but not trying to 'teach trauma prevention', per se. 

                  But Maddy--while I agree in a certain way with your assessment, perhaps you don't realize that it kind of sounds like you are advocating for surrender of control. It's certainly true that we need to surrender to birth...but should we be surrendering control to PROVIDERS? Especially, to providers who a) are NOT practicing evidence based care and b) ARE practicing in a manner that violates mothers' bodies and spirits. As mentioned, it's not so much about receiving needed care that might be outside of the mother's dream for her birth--it's about HOW that care is given--whether respectfully and compassionately, or through brute physical or psychological force. 

                  Can you say more?

                  thanks,
                  Maggie

                  --- In solacesupporters@yahoogroups.com, Maddy Oden <momoden@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Great Question.Great response. Especially the part about women who
                  > "are informed" are the ones who are most traumatized... I think a lot 
                  > of it has to do with our " thought pattern" that says we can "control 
                  > " the situation. ( as moms in labor). Not always true... the result 
                  > is emotional trauma, and or more.
                  > Maddy


                • womynwyz1
                  You have made yourself more clear, Maddy :) And I agree that it is good to teach moms/fams prenatally that we make plans knowing that all might not go as
                  Message 8 of 10 , Nov 3, 2010
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                    You have made yourself more clear, Maddy :)

                    And I agree that it is good to teach moms/fams prenatally that we make plans knowing that all might not go as planned--help them understand that while their being pro-active is needed, so is surrender.

                    thanks,
                    Maggie

                    --- In solacesupporters@yahoogroups.com, Maddy Oden <momoden@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Nope not suggesting "surrender of control" at all. Just acknowledging,
                    > that no matter how much we prepare, learn, and have in place for the
                    > "perfect birth", it does not always turn out that way. I definitely
                    > agree that it is very important about How the care is given, attitude
                    > of provider etc. Just be conscious of the fact that we can do all
                    > these things, and get all the ducks lined up, but in reality it is not
                    > 100% in our control. Very thin line, I hope that makes it clearer.
                    > Maddy
                    > On Nov 2, 2010, at 6:43 AM, womynwyz1 wrote:
                    >
                    > > Yes, great question and fantastic response! I like the idea,
                    > > Dy...and I have to agree with Jenne and Jennifer on this point.
                    > > Perhaps a simple presentation on birth trauma--stating the facts,
                    > > and the kinds of things that influence a mother's experience of
                    > > trauma, making resources available--but not trying to 'teach trauma
                    > > prevention', per se.
                    > >
                    > > But Maddy--while I agree in a certain way with your assessment,
                    > > perhaps you don't realize that it kind of sounds like you are
                    > > advocating for surrender of control. It's certainly true that we
                    > > need to surrender to birth...but should we be surrendering control
                    > > to PROVIDERS? Especially, to providers who a) are NOT practicing
                    > > evidence based care and b) ARE practicing in a manner that violates
                    > > mothers' bodies and spirits. As mentioned, it's not so much about
                    > > receiving needed care that might be outside of the mother's dream
                    > > for her birth--it's about HOW that care is given--whether
                    > > respectfully and compassionately, or through brute physical or
                    > > psychological force.
                    > >
                    > > Can you say more?
                    > >
                    > > thanks,
                    > > Maggie
                    > >
                    > > --- In solacesupporters@yahoogroups.com, Maddy Oden <momoden@>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Great Question.Great response. Especially the part about women who
                    > > > "are informed" are the ones who are most traumatized... I think a
                    > > lot
                    > > > of it has to do with our " thought pattern" that says we can
                    > > "control
                    > > > " the situation. ( as moms in labor). Not always true... the result
                    > > > is emotional trauma, and or more.
                    > > > Maddy
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Jennifer Zimmerman
                    You might want to check out the links here: http://www.solaceformothers.org/birth_trauma.html That might provide some insight as to what birth trauma looks
                    Message 9 of 10 , Nov 3, 2010
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                      You might want to check out the links here: http://www.solaceformothers.org/birth_trauma.html That might provide some insight as to what birth trauma looks like.

                      I think that trauma is sometimes caused by an emergency situation, and sometimes caused by a woman wanting pain relief and being denied that by her provider. But most often I think it is caused by women not being allowed to give informed consent or refusal to procedures that they do not want. Providers may manipulate, coerce, or force women to undergo procedures that they do not want or need - or that they do need but do not offer the risks, benefits or alternatives to. I think a common misconception is that trauma is caused by the procedures themselves - so if we educate women not to accept these procedures then they won't be traumatized by them. But it's not the procedure that causes the trauma, it's the provider who pressures/forces the woman to undergo it without telling her the risks or alternatives or allowing her to refuse treatment or choose a different option. Even women who never have the procedure but are pressured and made to fight throughout their entire birth can feel traumatized afterward.

                      The style of childbirth education you are talking about here, like being okay if things don't go according to plan, sounds a lot like Birthing From Within. I took that class before my last birth. In a way I felt it was a good message to send, because there can be a lot of guilt if things don't go the way we want them to. I felt though that the focus was still on the mother. Her plans get messed up because she gets tired, or she needs pain relief, or something goes wrong with her body that requires an intervention. Of course those things do happen and it's good that women be okay with a change of plans, but I would have liked to have seen a realistic discussion on the realities of hospital birth and how difficult it is to achieve a natural or low intervention birth in that setting through no fault of the mother's. A lot of times it is the providers who alter the woman's plans and they do it in a way that makes her feel lied to, tricked, or even violated. It is hard to try to help a woman feel okay with that, and do we really want her to be?

                      I think one problem with a lot of childbirth education is the words that are used. Much of the responsibility to avoid interventions is placed on the woman. She is told that she has "choices" and "options" and that she has the right to choose and refuse any treatment "offered" to her. In some cases she is even encouraged to "go in fighting" for the birth she wants. She is told she can be "empowered" if she fights for her right to have a natural childbirth. In reality, she is not "offered options" as if she is ordering interventions off of a dinner menu. They are rarely presented as "options" or "choices". And the last thing that providers want to do is to hand over power and control to a laboring woman, so instead of being empowered by fighting for the birth she wants, the providers start fighting back and she is violated. As Jenne mentioned, women who are educated seem more vulnerable to birth trauma (in our observations) and one reason I think this is is that these women are going against what the hospital is offering and what they want the women to have. If you go in and go along with everything suggested to you, and you even ask for the interventions before they can suggest them, then you will be the perfect patient and treated wonderfully by everyone involved. If you go in fighting against everything suggested to you, they might start fighting back, they aren't going to like you very much and you may even be forced into submission. I think childbirth educators need to be really careful with what they are telling women. They should try to be really honest about what the hospital system is like, and they should not suggest that the woman should "fight" during labor without explaining the risks of doing so.

                      --- In solacesupporters@yahoogroups.com, DyAnna Gordon <completebeginnings@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Thanks so much for your feedback. I think my ideas were more along the lines
                      > of a few pages in the teachers training manual that outlines "typical"
                      > causes of trauma as well and signs and symptoms so that if they see it in
                      > students (VBAC hopefuls, 2nd time moms trying something different etc. )
                      > they can recognize it and recommend the Solace boards, a support group,
                      > offer a listening ear or even have local professionals available to help.
                      > True, the only way to prevent trauma is to work with care providers and
                      > informed consent. So reiderating even more the careful choice of a care
                      > provider. I also think teaching tollerance and acceptace of a change in
                      > birth it important. Not being ok with doctors and midwives ignoring personal
                      > wishes, but teaching that if you are exhauseted and chose and epidural and
                      > have other traumatic events occur not beating yourself up for "failing" at
                      > the natural birth since I feel like this self induced guilt often makes
                      > things worse. Does that make any sense? Also teaching the fact that birthing
                      > women are the consumers and helping to overcome the fear that if they "fire"
                      > their careproviders that they will be left alone. That even in the moment of
                      > birth they still have choices. Please continue with your ideas. I really
                      > appreciate them.
                      > Dy
                      >
                      > On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 7:49 AM, womynwyz1 <womynwise1@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Adding--
                      > >
                      > > Yes, I agree that families need to be strongly encouraged to thoroughly vet
                      > > their potential care providers--and seek out moms who've used the provider
                      > > for references. I see this problem even in the homebirth world: families
                      > > pick a mw they 'really like', who perhaps has given them references to fams
                      > > with only positive things to say about the mw...and do not ask the hard
                      > > questions or seek 'other info' from fams who may be able to say things about
                      > > a mw that show where she might need improvement, or just not be the best fit
                      > > for a particular family.
                      > >
                      > > Anyway--one thing we can do is try to break down this conditioned tendency
                      > > to 'absolute trust' in providers. And promote families' active empowerment
                      > > all along the way.
                      > >
                      > > Maggie
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In solacesupporters@yahoogroups.com<solacesupporters%40yahoogroups.com>,
                      > > "womynwyz1" <womynwise1@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Yes, great question and fantastic response! I like the idea, Dy...and I
                      > > have to agree with Jenne and Jennifer on this point. Perhaps a simple
                      > > presentation on birth trauma--stating the facts, and the kinds of things
                      > > that influence a mother's experience of trauma, making resources
                      > > available--but not trying to 'teach trauma prevention', per se.
                      > > >
                      > > > But Maddy--while I agree in a certain way with your assessment, perhaps
                      > > you don't realize that it kind of sounds like you are advocating for
                      > > surrender of control. It's certainly true that we need to surrender to
                      > > birth...but should we be surrendering control to PROVIDERS? Especially, to
                      > > providers who a) are NOT practicing evidence based care and b) ARE
                      > > practicing in a manner that violates mothers' bodies and spirits. As
                      > > mentioned, it's not so much about receiving needed care that might be
                      > > outside of the mother's dream for her birth--it's about HOW that care is
                      > > given--whether respectfully and compassionately, or through brute physical
                      > > or psychological force.
                      > > >
                      > > > Can you say more?
                      > > >
                      > > > thanks,
                      > > > Maggie
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In solacesupporters@yahoogroups.com<solacesupporters%40yahoogroups.com>,
                      > > Maddy Oden <momoden@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Great Question.Great response. Especially the part about women who
                      > > > > "are informed" are the ones who are most traumatized... I think a lot
                      > > > > of it has to do with our " thought pattern" that says we can "control
                      > > > > " the situation. ( as moms in labor). Not always true... the result
                      > > > > is emotional trauma, and or more.
                      > > > > Maddy
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --
                      > DyAnna Gordon
                      > Wife of Ben for 9 fabulous years
                      > Mother to Dannica Noel-12/23/2002
                      > Harrison Isaac-06/02/2005
                      > Everett Roger-02/06/2007
                      > Oliver Mark-10/24/2009
                      >
                      > www.completebeginnings.com
                      > www.alternativebirthservices.com
                      >
                    • jenneology
                      I really appreciate what Jennifer has said. Going into my hospital birth, I had no idea I was being thrown to the wolves and quite literally I would be lucky
                      Message 10 of 10 , Nov 4, 2010
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                        I really appreciate what Jennifer has said. Going into my hospital birth, I had no idea I was being thrown to the wolves and quite literally I would be lucky to get out of there without being sawed in half. Women aren't hearing that story in childbirth education classes or informed that the effects of that experience can stick with them for months to years and interfere with every aspect of joyful living. If there's an elephant in childbirth education, that's it.

                        I apologize for sounding melodramatic and for over-exaggerating, but I think you'll see my point if you read that with an effort to tone it down a bit. I think the members here will know what I mean by being thrown to the wolves. Jennifer described it better in her post: the idea that there is a fight between women and providers when it comes to the way a mother's birth will be managed, and quite often, the providers win.

                        If I could attempt to quantify it, I would guess that percentages would be higher than the instrumental delivery rate, and higher than the trauma rate because for the blessedly ignorant, there are women who do not realize the deception they've encountered, who are not traumatized by their provider's having their way with them. Would perhaps the rate of obstetric practicing winning over maternal child health approximate the epidural rate? I know this is taking it OT, but if anyone is interested in pursuing this line of thought, I'll create a new thread for it.
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