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Re: Ensemble RXTX audio levels

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  • warrenallgyer
    Paul If matching is important... and my personal experience is it makes no difference whatsoever in the performance of the radio at normal power.... then two
    Message 1 of 27 , Mar 27, 2013
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      Paul

      If matching is important... and my personal experience is it makes no difference whatsoever in the performance of the radio at normal power.... then two decimal digit accuracy is more than enough for a proper match.

      Warren Allgyer - W8TOD

      --- In softrock40@yahoogroups.com, "serracin7388" <pawlud@...> wrote:
      >
      > The problem is that my multimeter shows only two decimal figures after the point, so unable to get a proper reading for exact matching !
      >
      > Paul
      >
      > --- In softrock40@yahoogroups.com, Sid Boyce <sboyce@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Matching might be a good idea.
      > > I didn't match the replacements but I checked them when I removed them
      > > as part of Ed's QRO modification and they were perfectly matched so I
      > > can reuse them.
      > > 73 ... SId.
      > >
      > > On 27/03/13 18:48, serracin7388 wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Sid,
      > > >
      > > > Thanks for the info. Looks interesting. I do not remember if I have
      > > > matched the pa or not, but its worth replacing !
      > > >
      > > > --- In softrock40@yahoogroups.com
      > > > <mailto:softrock40%40yahoogroups.com>, Sid Boyce <sboyce@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > My only experience with that problem required replacing the 2 PA
      > > > BS170's
      > > > > as the audio level was ~2.0V and the power output similar to what you
      > > > > are getting.
      > > > > 73 ... Sid.
      > > > >
      > > > > On 27/03/13 02:52, serracin7388 wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > The Ensemble needs extensive modifications to work with the SDR2GO,
      > > > > > because its audio processing is integrated with other sections of the
      > > > > > Ensemble, such as the SI570 etc. I already had a discussion with the
      > > > > > designer.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I have compared SDR and stand alone phasing rigs, using my ears!!!.
      > > > > > The standalone, using ordinary analogue all band pass filters are
      > > > > > quieter on the RX side. I do not need much bells and whistles- those
      > > > > > will remove much of the fun and skills required as a radio operator !
      > > > > >
      > > > > > My 40/30/20 Ensemble is working perfectly on receive, with full
      > > > > > loudspeaker volume at 1uv signal injection from an Elekraft XG-2
      > > > > > signal generator. On tx, I am injecting a 0db audio signal from a pc
      > > > > > based generator, but I am getting 16 to 20dbm, which I am not
      > > > happy. I
      > > > > > expect some 25 to 30 dbm.The LPF has been modified, as per recent
      > > > > > modifications. PC based oscillators cannot go over the 0db level. I
      > > > > > will have to use an ordinary tone oscillator, and push a higher level
      > > > > > output, until clipping, monitoring with a scope.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Paul
      > > > > >
      > > > > > --- In softrock40@yahoogroups.com
      > > > <mailto:softrock40%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > > > > <mailto:softrock40%40yahoogroups.com>, John Greusel <greusel@> wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Â This sounds like it may work but I second Warren's question- to
      > > > > > what end? This is tearing off the business end of the Softrock
      > > > > > (including the software) and what have you got when done? The SDR2GO
      > > > > > is relatively inexpensive and will save you an elaborate jumble on
      > > > the
      > > > > > workbench. If it's just for the sake of experimentation then perhaps
      > > > > > it's a worthwhile goal and reason enough.Does the transceiver work
      > > > now
      > > > > > as designed?
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > John
      > > > > > > KC9OJV
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > ________________________________
      > > > > > > From: serracin7388 <pawlud@>
      > > > > > > To: softrock40@yahoogroups.com
      > > > <mailto:softrock40%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > > <mailto:softrock40%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 2:11 PM
      > > > > > > Subject: [softrock40] Re: Ensemble RXTX audio levels
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Â
      > > > > > > I intend to feed the existing SDA and SCL of the SI570 from an
      > > > > > external pic controller, thus no need of a pc.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > As for the tx & rx audio processing, I have various options. Either
      > > > > > use part of a disused phasing transceiver module ( G3TDZ Radcom July
      > > > > > 1993) or, I have two extra modules as used on the R2pro.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > I fed a 0db tone from a soundcard oscillator, but apparently, this
      > > > > > level is not enough, or the levels are wrong. In any case, I have
      > > > > > tried some of the many scores of soundcard audio oscillators, and
      > > > they
      > > > > > are all limited to zero db out.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > --- In softrock40@yahoogroups.com
      > > > <mailto:softrock40%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > > > > <mailto:softrock40%40yahoogroups.com>, "John" <greusel@> wrote:
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > What Jasmine is telling you is that the audio cables in and out
      > > > > > are not carrying audio signals. they're carrying complex, out of
      > > > phase
      > > > > > information that is converted to RF signals in the softrock (for
      > > > > > transmit) and conversely the received signals aren't audio either and
      > > > > > require decoding within the PC. There is one related system called
      > > > > > SDR2GO by the Austin QRP group that handles the encoding/decoding
      > > > > > without a PC so it's possible but not trivial.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > John
      > > > > > > > KC9OJV
      > > > > > > > --- In softrock40@yahoogroups.com
      > > > <mailto:softrock40%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > > > > <mailto:softrock40%40yahoogroups.com>, "serracin7388" <pawlud@> wrote:
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > I intend to operate the Ensemble , without a PC. Need to know
      > > > > > what will be the ideal audio level input at line out socket of the TX
      > > > > > opamps for maximum ssb out at the pa ?
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > --
      > > > > Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot
      > > > > Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support
      > > > > Senior Staff Specialist, Cricket Coach
      > > > > Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --
      > > Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot
      > > Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support
      > > Senior Staff Specialist, Cricket Coach
      > > Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks
      > >
      >
    • serracin7388
      I have checked the existing fets and they are matched up to two decimal points. What is worth mentioning is that there is no mention in the notes ( or I have
      Message 2 of 27 , Mar 28, 2013
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        I have checked the existing fets and they are matched up to two decimal points.

        What is worth mentioning is that there is no mention in the notes ( or I have not seen it ) of the voltages at the base & emitter of Q6, the 2N222 driver. Would it be possible to check it out for me please, on your rig, on both rx &tx ?

        However, it does mention that the audio input should be 2.4 pp, meaning 0.8 volts rms for full RF out !

        Paul



        --- In softrock40@yahoogroups.com, "warrenallgyer" <allgyer@...> wrote:
        >
        > Paul
        >
        > If matching is important... and my personal experience is it makes no difference whatsoever in the performance of the radio at normal power.... then two decimal digit accuracy is more than enough for a proper match.
        >
        > Warren Allgyer - W8TOD
        >
        > --- In softrock40@yahoogroups.com, "serracin7388" <pawlud@> wrote:
        > >
        > > The problem is that my multimeter shows only two decimal figures after the point, so unable to get a proper reading for exact matching !
        > >
        > > Paul
        > >
        > > --- In softrock40@yahoogroups.com, Sid Boyce <sboyce@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Matching might be a good idea.
        > > > I didn't match the replacements but I checked them when I removed them
        > > > as part of Ed's QRO modification and they were perfectly matched so I
        > > > can reuse them.
        > > > 73 ... SId.
        > > >
        > > > On 27/03/13 18:48, serracin7388 wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Sid,
        > > > >
        > > > > Thanks for the info. Looks interesting. I do not remember if I have
        > > > > matched the pa or not, but its worth replacing !
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In softrock40@yahoogroups.com
        > > > > <mailto:softrock40%40yahoogroups.com>, Sid Boyce <sboyce@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > My only experience with that problem required replacing the 2 PA
        > > > > BS170's
        > > > > > as the audio level was ~2.0V and the power output similar to what you
        > > > > > are getting.
        > > > > > 73 ... Sid.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > On 27/03/13 02:52, serracin7388 wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > The Ensemble needs extensive modifications to work with the SDR2GO,
        > > > > > > because its audio processing is integrated with other sections of the
        > > > > > > Ensemble, such as the SI570 etc. I already had a discussion with the
        > > > > > > designer.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > I have compared SDR and stand alone phasing rigs, using my ears!!!.
        > > > > > > The standalone, using ordinary analogue all band pass filters are
        > > > > > > quieter on the RX side. I do not need much bells and whistles- those
        > > > > > > will remove much of the fun and skills required as a radio operator !
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > My 40/30/20 Ensemble is working perfectly on receive, with full
        > > > > > > loudspeaker volume at 1uv signal injection from an Elekraft XG-2
        > > > > > > signal generator. On tx, I am injecting a 0db audio signal from a pc
        > > > > > > based generator, but I am getting 16 to 20dbm, which I am not
        > > > > happy. I
        > > > > > > expect some 25 to 30 dbm.The LPF has been modified, as per recent
        > > > > > > modifications. PC based oscillators cannot go over the 0db level. I
        > > > > > > will have to use an ordinary tone oscillator, and push a higher level
        > > > > > > output, until clipping, monitoring with a scope.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Paul
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > --- In softrock40@yahoogroups.com
        > > > > <mailto:softrock40%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > > > <mailto:softrock40%40yahoogroups.com>, John Greusel <greusel@> wrote:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Â This sounds like it may work but I second Warren's question- to
        > > > > > > what end? This is tearing off the business end of the Softrock
        > > > > > > (including the software) and what have you got when done? The SDR2GO
        > > > > > > is relatively inexpensive and will save you an elaborate jumble on
        > > > > the
        > > > > > > workbench. If it's just for the sake of experimentation then perhaps
        > > > > > > it's a worthwhile goal and reason enough.Does the transceiver work
        > > > > now
        > > > > > > as designed?
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > John
        > > > > > > > KC9OJV
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > ________________________________
        > > > > > > > From: serracin7388 <pawlud@>
        > > > > > > > To: softrock40@yahoogroups.com
        > > > > <mailto:softrock40%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > <mailto:softrock40%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 2:11 PM
        > > > > > > > Subject: [softrock40] Re: Ensemble RXTX audio levels
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Â
        > > > > > > > I intend to feed the existing SDA and SCL of the SI570 from an
        > > > > > > external pic controller, thus no need of a pc.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > As for the tx & rx audio processing, I have various options. Either
        > > > > > > use part of a disused phasing transceiver module ( G3TDZ Radcom July
        > > > > > > 1993) or, I have two extra modules as used on the R2pro.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > I fed a 0db tone from a soundcard oscillator, but apparently, this
        > > > > > > level is not enough, or the levels are wrong. In any case, I have
        > > > > > > tried some of the many scores of soundcard audio oscillators, and
        > > > > they
        > > > > > > are all limited to zero db out.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > --- In softrock40@yahoogroups.com
        > > > > <mailto:softrock40%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > > > <mailto:softrock40%40yahoogroups.com>, "John" <greusel@> wrote:
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > What Jasmine is telling you is that the audio cables in and out
        > > > > > > are not carrying audio signals. they're carrying complex, out of
        > > > > phase
        > > > > > > information that is converted to RF signals in the softrock (for
        > > > > > > transmit) and conversely the received signals aren't audio either and
        > > > > > > require decoding within the PC. There is one related system called
        > > > > > > SDR2GO by the Austin QRP group that handles the encoding/decoding
        > > > > > > without a PC so it's possible but not trivial.
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > John
        > > > > > > > > KC9OJV
        > > > > > > > > --- In softrock40@yahoogroups.com
        > > > > <mailto:softrock40%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > > > <mailto:softrock40%40yahoogroups.com>, "serracin7388" <pawlud@> wrote:
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > I intend to operate the Ensemble , without a PC. Need to know
        > > > > > > what will be the ideal audio level input at line out socket of the TX
        > > > > > > opamps for maximum ssb out at the pa ?
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --
        > > > > > Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot
        > > > > > Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support
        > > > > > Senior Staff Specialist, Cricket Coach
        > > > > > Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --
        > > > Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot
        > > > Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support
        > > > Senior Staff Specialist, Cricket Coach
        > > > Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • warrenallgyer
        I am happy to do that Paul but I am not sure it is very helpful. Q6 receives S12V so there is not voltage on the device on Receive. On Transmit, with no drive
        Message 3 of 27 , Mar 28, 2013
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          I am happy to do that Paul but I am not sure it is very helpful.

          Q6 receives S12V so there is not voltage on the device on Receive.

          On Transmit, with no drive applied, I measure 1.96 VDC at the base and 1.26 at the emitter.

          Note: This is with a 13.8 VDC supply (which is another strong recommendation). With 12 VDC the voltages would be correspondingly lower.

          Warren Allgyer - W8TOD

          --- In softrock40@yahoogroups.com, "serracin7388" <pawlud@...> wrote:
          >
          > I have checked the existing fets and they are matched up to two decimal points.
          >
          > What is worth mentioning is that there is no mention in the notes ( or I have not seen it ) of the voltages at the base & emitter of Q6, the 2N222 driver. Would it be possible to check it out for me please, on your rig, on both rx &tx ?
          >
          > However, it does mention that the audio input should be 2.4 pp, meaning 0.8 volts rms for full RF out !
          >
          > Paul
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In softrock40@yahoogroups.com, "warrenallgyer" <allgyer@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Paul
          > >
        • serracin7388
          Warren, Thanks. I will be checking both the dc and rf voltages at the driver as well. Alan has also some interesting reference voltages. Paul
          Message 4 of 27 , Mar 28, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            Warren,
            Thanks.

            I will be checking both the dc and rf voltages at the driver as well. Alan has also some interesting reference voltages.

            Paul

            --- In softrock40@yahoogroups.com, "warrenallgyer" <allgyer@...> wrote:
            >
            > I am happy to do that Paul but I am not sure it is very helpful.
            >
            > Q6 receives S12V so there is not voltage on the device on Receive.
            >
            > On Transmit, with no drive applied, I measure 1.96 VDC at the base and 1.26 at the emitter.
            >
            > Note: This is with a 13.8 VDC supply (which is another strong recommendation). With 12 VDC the voltages would be correspondingly lower.
            >
            > Warren Allgyer - W8TOD
            >
            > --- In softrock40@yahoogroups.com, "serracin7388" <pawlud@> wrote:
            > >
            > > I have checked the existing fets and they are matched up to two decimal points.
            > >
            > > What is worth mentioning is that there is no mention in the notes ( or I have not seen it ) of the voltages at the base & emitter of Q6, the 2N222 driver. Would it be possible to check it out for me please, on your rig, on both rx &tx ?
            > >
            > > However, it does mention that the audio input should be 2.4 pp, meaning 0.8 volts rms for full RF out !
            > >
            > > Paul
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In softrock40@yahoogroups.com, "warrenallgyer" <allgyer@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Paul
            > > >
            >
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