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Measuring toroids inductance

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  • pauldebono@rocketmail.com
    A few years ago, I came across a Russian inductance meter kit. Mnay designers claim to be the best one around for accurancy. Anyone has the details please ?
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 10, 2012
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      A few years ago, I came across a Russian inductance meter kit.
      Mnay designers claim to be the best one around for accurancy.

      Anyone has the details please ?
      Many of the popular meters around are dubious about accuracy, because inductance is not measured at RF, but anything but RF !

      Paul
    • John Rabson
      Or try this: the kit from G4HUP available from http://g4hup.com/LCM/LCMeter.htm which is only LC but excellent for measuring and matching caps including SM
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 10, 2012
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        Or try this:

        "the kit from G4HUP available from http://g4hup.com/LCM/LCMeter.htm which is only LC but excellent for measuring and matching caps including SM parts and winding coils for HF/VHF

        73
        John G4SWX"

        On 10 Nov 2012, at 11:27CET, pauldebono@... wrote:

         

        A few years ago, I came across a Russian inductance meter kit.
        Mnay designers claim to be the best one around for accurancy.

        Anyone has the details please ?
        Many of the popular meters around are dubious about accuracy, because inductance is not measured at RF, but anything but RF !

        Paul


      • Alan
        ... Subject: Re: [softrock40] Measuring toroids inductance ... Yes, this is the same as many designs. Google a surprisingly accurate digital lc meter But you
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 10, 2012
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          ----- Original Message -----
          Subject: Re: [softrock40] Measuring toroids inductance



          >"the kit from G4HUP available from http://g4hup.com/LCM/LCMeter.htm which is only LC but excellent for measuring and matching caps
          >including SM parts and winding coils for HF/VHF

          Yes, this is the same as many designs.
          Google "a surprisingly accurate digital lc meter"

          But you do not have to measure them. Tuning is broad enough for the specified turns to be perfectly adequate.

          73 Alan G4ZFQ
        • Alan
          I meant to add that most LC meters do not measure at the working frequency but previous discussions have concluded it makes no practical difference. 73 Alan
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 10, 2012
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            I meant to add that most LC meters do not measure at the working frequency but previous discussions have concluded it makes no
            practical difference.

            73 Alan G4ZFQ
          • Malti
            With all due respect, there are scores of similar pic based circuits around. What I need is a pic based, but the coil measured under a high RF frequency. That
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 10, 2012
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              With all due respect, there are scores of similar pic based circuits around.
              What I need is a pic based, but the coil measured under a high RF frequency.
              That is the only way to obtain very accurate readings, especially for us, at RF !
              Most use audio or slightly higher frequency, which is not enough  !

              Paul

              On 10 November 2012 11:59, John Rabson <john.rabson@...> wrote:
               

              Or try this:


              "the kit from G4HUP available from http://g4hup.com/LCM/LCMeter.htm which is only LC but excellent for measuring and matching caps including SM parts and winding coils for HF/VHF

              73
              John G4SWX"

              On 10 Nov 2012, at 11:27CET, pauldebono@... wrote:

               

              A few years ago, I came across a Russian inductance meter kit.
              Mnay designers claim to be the best one around for accurancy.

              Anyone has the details please ?
              Many of the popular meters around are dubious about accuracy, because inductance is not measured at RF, but anything but RF !

              Paul



            • pauldebono@rocketmail.com
              I found it. It is not a kit, but a usb device: http://www.henrytest.com/ Paul
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 10, 2012
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                I found it. It is not a kit, but a usb device:

                http://www.henrytest.com/

                Paul

                --- In softrock40@yahoogroups.com, Malti <pawlud@...> wrote:
                >
                > With all due respect, there are scores of similar pic based circuits around.
                > What I need is a pic based, but the coil measured under a high RF frequency.
                > That is the only way to obtain very accurate readings, especially for us,
                > at RF !
                > Most use audio or slightly higher frequency, which is not enough !
                >
                > Paul
                >
                > On 10 November 2012 11:59, John Rabson <john.rabson@...> wrote:
                >
                > > **
                > >
                > >
                > > Or try this:
                > >
                > > "the kit from G4HUP available from http://g4hup.com/LCM/LCMeter.htm which
                > > is only LC but excellent for measuring and matching caps including SM parts
                > > and winding coils for HF/VHF
                > >
                > > 73
                > > John G4SWX"
                > >
                > > On 10 Nov 2012, at 11:27CET, pauldebono@... wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > A few years ago, I came across a Russian inductance meter kit.
                > > Mnay designers claim to be the best one around for accurancy.
                > >
                > > Anyone has the details please ?
                > > Many of the popular meters around are dubious about accuracy, because
                > > inductance is not measured at RF, but anything but RF !
                > >
                > > Paul
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
              • Jeff Blaine
                Paul, Not sure what the basis for that claim is. The PIC and similar have worked for all the RF stuff I’ve done but you may have a special application. In
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 10, 2012
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                  Paul,
                   
                  Not sure what the basis for that claim is.  The PIC and similar have worked for all the RF stuff I’ve done but you may have a special application.
                   
                  In any event, if you need something better, take a look at a VNA. That will let you do anything your heart desires.
                   
                  73/jeff/ac0c
                  www.ac0c.com
                  alpha-charlie-zero-charlie

                   
                  From: Malti
                  Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2012 8:57 PM
                  Subject: Re: [softrock40] Measuring toroids inductance
                   
                   

                  With all due respect, there are scores of similar pic based circuits around.
                  What I need is a pic based, but the coil measured under a high RF frequency.
                  That is the only way to obtain very accurate readings, especially for us, at RF !
                  Most use audio or slightly higher frequency, which is not enough  !

                  Paul

                  On 10 November 2012 11:59, John Rabson <john.rabson@...> wrote:
                   

                  Or try this:

                   
                  "the kit from G4HUP available from http://g4hup.com/LCM/LCMeter.htm which is only LC but excellent for measuring and matching caps including SM parts and winding coils for HF/VHF

                  73
                  John G4SWX"
                   
                  On 10 Nov 2012, at 11:27CET, pauldebono@... wrote:

                   

                  A few years ago, I came across a Russian inductance meter kit.
                  Mnay designers claim to be the best one around for accurancy.

                  Anyone has the details please ?
                  Many of the popular meters around are dubious about accuracy, because inductance is not measured at RF, but anything but RF !

                  Paul

                   

                • Jack Smith
                  Simple PIC-based instruments measure inductance and capacitance at a rather low frequency compared with ham frequencies - in the 100-700 KHz range. However, an
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 10, 2012
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                    Simple PIC-based instruments measure inductance and capacitance at a rather low frequency compared with ham frequencies - in the 100-700 KHz range.

                    However, an inductance value measured at say 500 KHz may or may not have a similar inductance at 5 or 25 MHz.

                    Many factors enter in measured inductance versus frequency. Some are:

                    1. Does the core material permeability vary with frequency? (Air, no; powdered iron, very little; ferrite material, permeability can change a great deal or a small amount with frequency depending on the particular mix.)

                    2. Changes in current distribution - the winding current changes location to some degree with frequency due to skin effect and proximity effect, and as the current distribution changes, so does the inductance.

                    3. Distributed capacitance - all inductors have distributed capacitance to one degree or another and as the test frequency approaches the self-resonance frequency of the inductor, the measured inductance will change, becoming very large, then zero at the SRF and negative above the SRF.

                    Whether any or all of these factors are important cannot be answered in general abstract case; rather it depends on the details.

                    As a rough statement, however, for inductors wound on powdered iron toroid cores and of typical values used in amateur radio construction and at frequencies in the 1-30 MHz range, a PIC-based instrument that measures inductance in the few hundred KHz range will produce useful results, with an error in the few percent range.

                    I've written a detailed review of the AADE PIC-based L/C meter and discussed these factors in detail, as well as provided many measurement comparisons at
                    http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/Documents/AADE%20Reveiw.pdf

                    Jack K8ZOA


                    On 11/10/2012 7:57 AM, Malti wrote:
                     

                    With all due respect, there are scores of similar pic based circuits around.
                    What I need is a pic based, but the coil measured under a high RF frequency.
                    That is the only way to obtain very accurate readings, especially for us, at RF !
                    Most use audio or slightly higher frequency, which is not enough  !

                    Paul

                    On 10 November 2012 11:59, John Rabson <john.rabson@...> wrote:
                     

                    Or try this:


                    "the kit from G4HUP available from http://g4hup.com/LCM/LCMeter.htm which is only LC but excellent for measuring and matching caps including SM parts and winding coils for HF/VHF

                    73
                    John G4SWX"

                    On 10 Nov 2012, at 11:27CET, pauldebono@... wrote:

                     

                    A few years ago, I came across a Russian inductance meter kit.
                    Mnay designers claim to be the best one around for accurancy.

                    Anyone has the details please ?
                    Many of the popular meters around are dubious about accuracy, because inductance is not measured at RF, but anything but RF !

                    Paul




                  • Russ Ramirez
                    I m sure the vast majority of people who have used the microcontroller-based LC meters will attest that given a rated off the shelf inductor or a wound coil of
                    Message 9 of 14 , Nov 10, 2012
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                      I'm sure the vast majority of people who have used the microcontroller-based LC meters will attest that given a rated off the shelf inductor or a wound coil of any type specified beforehand to be xx.xx nano/microhenries, their LC meters have been quite accurate. Indeed, if you wind a given toroid that calculations show should be 7.23 uH for the core used, the LC meters will display something within a few 10ths or so of 7.23 uH. I am an EE and well versed in the models we use, but have found it hard to argue with experience and successful outcomes :-) For most of the HF frequencies there is enough slop that it usually doesn't matter. UHF/SHF is another matter entirely.

                      Russ
                      K0WFS

                      On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 8:07 AM, Jack Smith <Jack.Smith@...> wrote:
                       

                      Simple PIC-based instruments measure inductance and capacitance at a rather low frequency compared with ham frequencies - in the 100-700 KHz range.

                      However, an inductance value measured at say 500 KHz may or may not have a similar inductance at 5 or 25 MHz.

                      Many factors enter in measured inductance versus frequency. Some are:

                      1. Does the core material permeability vary with frequency? (Air, no; powdered iron, very little; ferrite material, permeability can change a great deal or a small amount with frequency depending on the particular mix.)

                      2. Changes in current distribution - the winding current changes location to some degree with frequency due to skin effect and proximity effect, and as the current distribution changes, so does the inductance.

                      3. Distributed capacitance - all inductors have distributed capacitance to one degree or another and as the test frequency approaches the self-resonance frequency of the inductor, the measured inductance will change, becoming very large, then zero at the SRF and negative above the SRF.

                      Whether any or all of these factors are important cannot be answered in general abstract case; rather it depends on the details.

                      As a rough statement, however, for inductors wound on powdered iron toroid cores and of typical values used in amateur radio construction and at frequencies in the 1-30 MHz range, a PIC-based instrument that measures inductance in the few hundred KHz range will produce useful results, with an error in the few percent range.

                      I've written a detailed review of the AADE PIC-based L/C meter and discussed these factors in detail, as well as provided many measurement comparisons at
                      http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/Documents/AADE%20Reveiw.pdf

                      Jack K8ZOA


                      On 11/10/2012 7:57 AM, Malti wrote:
                       

                      With all due respect, there are scores of similar pic based circuits around.
                      What I need is a pic based, but the coil measured under a high RF frequency.
                      That is the only way to obtain very accurate readings, especially for us, at RF !
                      Most use audio or slightly higher frequency, which is not enough  !

                      Paul

                      On 10 November 2012 11:59, John Rabson <john.rabson@...> wrote:
                       

                      Or try this:


                      "the kit from G4HUP available from http://g4hup.com/LCM/LCMeter.htm which is only LC but excellent for measuring and matching caps including SM parts and winding coils for HF/VHF

                      73
                      John G4SWX"

                      On 10 Nov 2012, at 11:27CET, pauldebono@... wrote:

                       

                      A few years ago, I came across a Russian inductance meter kit.
                      Mnay designers claim to be the best one around for accurancy.

                      Anyone has the details please ?
                      Many of the popular meters around are dubious about accuracy, because inductance is not measured at RF, but anything but RF !

                      Paul





                    • yl2gqn
                      Hello Paul, I m use PC based software with very simple circuit. The accuracy is absolutely enough for radio amateurs. Original article is here:
                      Message 10 of 14 , Nov 10, 2012
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                        Hello Paul,

                        I'm use PC based software with very simple circuit. The accuracy is absolutely enough for radio amateurs.

                        Original article is here: http://www.sillanumsoft.org/ZRLC.htm
                        Schematic can be grab from article on Italian: http://www.marucchi.it/ZRLC_web/INTERFACCIA_ZRLC_p.pdf

                        Regards,
                        Andy. YL2QN


                        --- In softrock40@yahoogroups.com, "pauldebono@..." <pawlud@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > A few years ago, I came across a Russian inductance meter kit.
                        > Mnay designers claim to be the best one around for accurancy.
                        >
                        > Anyone has the details please ?
                        > Many of the popular meters around are dubious about accuracy, because inductance is not measured at RF, but anything but RF !
                        >
                        > Paul
                        >
                      • rifkum
                        I just bought and used one of these...
                        Message 11 of 14 , Nov 10, 2012
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                          I just bought and used one of these...

                          http://www.ebay.com/itm/LC100-A-Digital-LCD-High-Precision-Inductance-Capacitance-L-C-multimeter-Meter-/271036658278?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f1b0b3266

                          to build my ensemble RX II.

                          I am extremely pleased with it. Runs off of USB power (cable included) or there is an external power jack. The USB is only used for power, no data back to the computer required.

                          Seems very accurate... easy to use. All the capacitors checked out as marked and the toroids came out as they were supposed to according to the build plans and number of turns.

                          Be sure to zero it each time you turn it on (I zero it before each reading)

                          There are several on ebay.

                          I am very pleased with this one though.

                          good luck
                          dwight
                          N7KBC
                        • Zack Widup
                          I also bought one of these. I am also very impressed. Hand-wound inductances and toroids measure within a few percent of the calculated value. I made a little
                          Message 12 of 14 , Nov 10, 2012
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                            I also bought one of these. I am also very impressed. Hand-wound inductances and toroids measure within a few percent of the calculated value. I made a little clip jig to measure chip components with. Very handy.

                            73, Zack W9SZ


                            On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 11:21 AM, rifkum <rifkum@...> wrote:
                             

                            I just bought and used one of these...

                            http://www.ebay.com/itm/LC100-A-Digital-LCD-High-Precision-Inductance-Capacitance-L-C-multimeter-Meter-/271036658278?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f1b0b3266

                            to build my ensemble RX II.

                            I am extremely pleased with it. Runs off of USB power (cable included) or there is an external power jack. The USB is only used for power, no data back to the computer required.

                            Seems very accurate... easy to use. All the capacitors checked out as marked and the toroids came out as they were supposed to according to the build plans and number of turns.

                            Be sure to zero it each time you turn it on (I zero it before each reading)

                            There are several on ebay.

                            I am very pleased with this one though.

                            good luck
                            dwight
                            N7KBC


                          • Ricardo Caratti
                            Helo everybody.   I also bought one of these on ebay. I posted a video showing that this device working. Softrock VHF RX Ensemble II 8/10 (T2 Wind) -
                            Message 13 of 14 , Nov 10, 2012
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                              Helo everybody.
                               
                              I also bought one of these on ebay.
                              I posted a video showing that this device working.
                              Softrock VHF RX Ensemble II 8/10 (T2 Wind) - http://youtu.be/3zKYe7ak-2U

                              73.
                              PU2CLR.
                              Ricardo.




                              De: rifkum <rifkum@...>
                              Para: softrock40@yahoogroups.com
                              Enviadas: Sábado, 10 de Novembro de 2012 15:21
                              Assunto: [softrock40] Re: Measuring toroids inductance

                               
                              I just bought and used one of these...

                              http://www.ebay.com/itm/LC100-A-Digital-LCD-High-Precision-Inductance-Capacitance-L-C-multimeter-Meter-/271036658278?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f1b0b3266

                              to build my ensemble RX II.

                              I am extremely pleased with it. Runs off of USB power (cable included) or there is an external power jack. The USB is only used for power, no data back to the computer required.

                              Seems very accurate... easy to use. All the capacitors checked out as marked and the toroids came out as they were supposed to according to the build plans and number of turns.

                              Be sure to zero it each time you turn it on (I zero it before each reading)

                              There are several on ebay.

                              I am very pleased with this one though.

                              good luck
                              dwight
                              N7KBC



                            • Malti
                              This LCR meter has been reviewed by N5ESE, and looks promising, but it seems the company has gone bust ! Its the M-Cubed LCRZ Meter Paul ... This LCR meter
                              Message 14 of 14 , Nov 11, 2012
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                                This LCR meter has been reviewed by N5ESE, and looks promising, but it seems the company has gone bust !

                                 Its the  M-Cubed LCRZ Meter

                                Paul

                                On 10 November 2012 22:16, Ricardo Caratti <pu2clr@...> wrote:
                                 

                                Helo everybody.
                                 
                                I also bought one of these on ebay.
                                I posted a video showing that this device working.
                                Softrock VHF RX Ensemble II 8/10 (T2 Wind) - http://youtu.be/3zKYe7ak-2U

                                73.
                                PU2CLR.
                                Ricardo.




                                De: rifkum <rifkum@...>
                                Para: softrock40@yahoogroups.com
                                Enviadas: Sábado, 10 de Novembro de 2012 15:21
                                Assunto: [softrock40] Re: Measuring toroids inductance

                                 
                                I just bought and used one of these...

                                http://www.ebay.com/itm/LC100-A-Digital-LCD-High-Precision-Inductance-Capacitance-L-C-multimeter-Meter-/271036658278?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f1b0b3266

                                to build my ensemble RX II.

                                I am extremely pleased with it. Runs off of USB power (cable included) or there is an external power jack. The USB is only used for power, no data back to the computer required.

                                Seems very accurate... easy to use. All the capacitors checked out as marked and the toroids came out as they were supposed to according to the build plans and number of turns.

                                Be sure to zero it each time you turn it on (I zero it before each reading)

                                There are several on ebay.

                                I am very pleased with this one though.

                                good luck
                                dwight
                                N7KBC




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