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Re: Crystals & Oscllators [Maybe more than you wanted to know]

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  • dick_faust
    The file ref was to Experimental Methods in RF Design CD but also on Communications Quarterly CD. I also forgot to include another very important recently
    Message 1 of 7 , Sep 1, 2007
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      The file ref was to Experimental Methods in RF Design CD but also on
      Communications Quarterly CD.

      I also forgot to include another very important recently published
      reference link to the Leeson Model which I have added below:

      The Leeson Effect - Phase Noise in Feedback Oscillators, by Enrico
      Rubiola
      http://www.ieee-uffc.org/freqcontrol/tutorials/Rubiola/Rubiola.pdf

      The lecture notes are excellent while the book is very technical

      Dick

      --- In softrock40@yahoogroups.com, "Roderick Wall" <rwallmail@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Hi Dick,
      >
      > I've searched the Internet but can't find your reference to:
      > Do you know where I can get a copy from?
      >
      > {
      > A final reference that may be found in Amateur publications is:
      > DEMPHANO, A device for measuring phase noise, Communications
      > Quarterly, spring, 1999, pp. 9-17 by J. Makhinson - cq199904.pdf
      >
      > Dick Faust
      > K9IVB
      > }
      >
      > Thanks for a very interesting discussion on Crystal Oscillators,
      >
      > Roderick Wall, VK3BKO.
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: dick_faust
      > To: softrock40@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 9:27 AM
      > Subject: [softrock40] Crystals & Oscllators [Maybe more than you
      wanted to know]
      >
      >
      > I was going to write something, but the following references do a
      > much better job at teaching and answering many of the questions
      > recently posted.
      >
      > Quartz Crystal Resonators and Oscillators for Frequency Control
      and
      > Timing Applications - A Tutorial, by John R. Vig [3 formats]
      > http://www.ieee-uffc.org/freqcontrol/VigBallato/fcdevices.PDF
      >
      > http://www.ieee-
      > uffc.org/freqcontrol/tutorials/vig2/tutorial2_files/frame.htm
      >
      > http://www.ieee-uffc.org/freqcontrol/tutorials/vig3/vig3.ppt
      >
      > The Fundamental Theory of Low Noise Oscillators with Special
      > Reference to Some Detailed Designs, by J. Everard
      > http://www.ieee-uffc.org/freqcontrol/tutorials/FCS%20Tutorials%
      > 2000/everard.pdf
      >
      > Low Noise Oscillator Design and Performance, by Michael M.
      Driscoll
      > http://www.ieee-
      > uffc.org/freqcontrol/tutorials/2002_IEEE_Tutorial_files/frame.htm
      >
      > Clock Jitter, by R. Temple
      > http://www.ieee-uffc.org/freqcontrol/tutorials/FCS%20Tutorials%
      > 2000/Temple_files/frame.htm
      >
      > Now my addition is limited to some crystal specifications & notes
      as
      > apply to the 20/30M daughter board.
      >
      > The crystal should be specified as a fundamental series resonate
      > device at what ever make tolerance desired. Note: the Butler
      > oscillator operates on the fundamental frequency which is
      slightly
      > different than 3rd overtone. I have no idea what drive level is
      > present, but stay in HC-49 case, if at all possible, as this is
      the
      > largest quartz blank.
      >
      > The Butler oscillator uses the "tuned" tank circuit to extract
      the
      > third harmonic and provide the balance of the phase shift and
      gain
      > required to sustain oscillation. The "tuned" circuit needs to
      > resonate higher than the third harmonic to meet the operating
      > conditions and usually is not critical [often why swamped with a
      > resistor]. The circuit will also work with a fundamental crystal
      but
      > at a higher crystal drive current. In both cases the actual
      > operating frequency will be somewhat higher than the actual
      series
      > resonant frequency. So use a frequency counter [or radio] to
      > determine the exact frequency.
      >
      > The series resonant frequency of a crystal is always lower than
      the
      > parallel resonant frequency. Parallel resonant crystals are
      > correlated with an external parallel capacitor across the
      crystal,
      > usually 18pF, 20pF or 32pF. The higher the external cap, the
      lower
      > the anti-resonant [parallel resonant] frequency will be.
      Oscillators
      > always operate between the series and loaded anti-resonant
      > frequencies. [Exception: If there is an external inductor, it
      will
      > move the series resonant frequency lower]
      >
      > It is quite simple to measure the two frequencies of a crystal
      with
      > minimum equipment. A stable 50 ohm signal generator or DDS and a
      rf
      > meter [a receiver, RF Voltmeter or an rf probe if you have a
      large
      > enough signal]. Take 2 resistors from 1K to 10K and connect
      together
      > in series. Connect one end to the generator and the other to the
      > meter. Connect one lead of the crystal at the center and the
      other
      > to the shields [gnd] of the generator and meter. As you manually
      > sweep the generator through the series resonant frequency of the
      > crystal there will be an 80 to 100 db drop in amplitude about 5Hz
      > wide at the series resonant frequency - so go slow. If you put
      the
      > crystal in series with the resistors the same effect will be
      observed
      > at a somewhat higher frequency when the elements are parallel
      > resonant and block the signal. A 20pF cap in parallel with the
      > crystal will lower the frequency to the 20pF correlation
      frequency.
      > The resistors serve to isolate the external strays and give very
      > reliable readings. The anti-resonant null is much broader than
      the
      > series resonant due to the effects of circuit Q.
      >
      > A final reference that may be found in Amateur publications is :
      > DEMPHANO, A device for measuring phase noise, Communications
      > Quarterly, Spring, 1999, pp. 9-17 by J. Makhinson - cq199904.pdf
      >
      > Dick Faust
      > K9IVB
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --------------------------------------------------------------------
      ----------
      >
      >
      > No virus found in this incoming message.
      > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
      > Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.1/982 - Release Date:
      8/31/2007 5:21 PM
      >
    • Claudio Re
      My big compliment Jack ! Thanks . Claudio I1RFQ ... with ... methods ... 20Parameters.pdf ... with
      Message 2 of 7 , Sep 2, 2007
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        My big compliment Jack !
        Thanks .
        Claudio I1RFQ


        --- In softrock40@yahoogroups.com, Jack Smith <Jack.Smith@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > dick_faust wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > <snip>
        >
        >
        > > It is quite simple to measure the two frequencies of a crystal
        with
        > > minimum equipment.
        > > K9IVB
        >
        >
        >
        > I have written a detailed comparison of a dozen or so different
        methods
        > of measuring the parameters of a crystal, available at
        > http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/Documents/Crystal%20Motional%
        20Parameters.pdf
        >
        > The techniques are compared against a standard reference crystal
        with
        > certified motional parameters.
        >
        > Jack K8ZOA
        >
      • Claudio Re
        Thanks a lot Dick ! What a nice and huge docs to digest ....! Some documents are in frames and I was not able to download them totally . Any suggestions ?
        Message 3 of 7 , Sep 2, 2007
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          Thanks a lot Dick !
          What a nice and huge docs to digest ....!
          Some documents are in frames and I was not able to download them
          totally .
          Any suggestions ?
          CLaudio I1RFQ


          --- In softrock40@yahoogroups.com, "dick_faust" <dick_faust@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > I was going to write something, but the following references do a
          > much better job at teaching and answering many of the questions
          > recently posted.
          >
          > Quartz Crystal Resonators and Oscillators for Frequency Control
          and
          > Timing Applications - A Tutorial, by John R. Vig [3 formats]
          > http://www.ieee-uffc.org/freqcontrol/VigBallato/fcdevices.PDF
          >
          > http://www.ieee-
          > uffc.org/freqcontrol/tutorials/vig2/tutorial2_files/frame.htm
          >
          > http://www.ieee-uffc.org/freqcontrol/tutorials/vig3/vig3.ppt
          >
          > The Fundamental Theory of Low Noise Oscillators with Special
          > Reference to Some Detailed Designs, by J. Everard
          > http://www.ieee-uffc.org/freqcontrol/tutorials/FCS%20Tutorials%
          > 2000/everard.pdf
          >
          > Low Noise Oscillator Design and Performance, by Michael M. Driscoll
          > http://www.ieee-
          > uffc.org/freqcontrol/tutorials/2002_IEEE_Tutorial_files/frame.htm
          >
          > Clock Jitter, by R. Temple
          > http://www.ieee-uffc.org/freqcontrol/tutorials/FCS%20Tutorials%
          > 2000/Temple_files/frame.htm
          >
          > Now my addition is limited to some crystal specifications & notes
          as
          > apply to the 20/30M daughter board.
          >
          > The crystal should be specified as a fundamental series resonate
          > device at what ever make tolerance desired. Note: the Butler
          > oscillator operates on the fundamental frequency which is slightly
          > different than 3rd overtone. I have no idea what drive level is
          > present, but stay in HC-49 case, if at all possible, as this is
          the
          > largest quartz blank.
          >
          > The Butler oscillator uses the "tuned" tank circuit to extract the
          > third harmonic and provide the balance of the phase shift and gain
          > required to sustain oscillation. The "tuned" circuit needs to
          > resonate higher than the third harmonic to meet the operating
          > conditions and usually is not critical [often why swamped with a
          > resistor]. The circuit will also work with a fundamental crystal
          but
          > at a higher crystal drive current. In both cases the actual
          > operating frequency will be somewhat higher than the actual series
          > resonant frequency. So use a frequency counter [or radio] to
          > determine the exact frequency.
          >
          > The series resonant frequency of a crystal is always lower than
          the
          > parallel resonant frequency. Parallel resonant crystals are
          > correlated with an external parallel capacitor across the crystal,
          > usually 18pF, 20pF or 32pF. The higher the external cap, the
          lower
          > the anti-resonant [parallel resonant] frequency will be.
          Oscillators
          > always operate between the series and loaded anti-resonant
          > frequencies. [Exception: If there is an external inductor, it
          will
          > move the series resonant frequency lower]
          >
          > It is quite simple to measure the two frequencies of a crystal
          with
          > minimum equipment. A stable 50 ohm signal generator or DDS and a
          rf
          > meter [a receiver, RF Voltmeter or an rf probe if you have a large
          > enough signal]. Take 2 resistors from 1K to 10K and connect
          together
          > in series. Connect one end to the generator and the other to the
          > meter. Connect one lead of the crystal at the center and the
          other
          > to the shields [gnd] of the generator and meter. As you manually
          > sweep the generator through the series resonant frequency of the
          > crystal there will be an 80 to 100 db drop in amplitude about 5Hz
          > wide at the series resonant frequency - so go slow. If you put
          the
          > crystal in series with the resistors the same effect will be
          observed
          > at a somewhat higher frequency when the elements are parallel
          > resonant and block the signal. A 20pF cap in parallel with the
          > crystal will lower the frequency to the 20pF correlation
          frequency.
          > The resistors serve to isolate the external strays and give very
          > reliable readings. The anti-resonant null is much broader than
          the
          > series resonant due to the effects of circuit Q.
          >
          > A final reference that may be found in Amateur publications is :
          > DEMPHANO, A device for measuring phase noise, Communications
          > Quarterly, Spring, 1999, pp. 9-17 by J. Makhinson – cq199904.pdf
          >
          > Dick Faust
          > K9IVB
          >
        • dick_faust
          Might try contacting John Vig at the IEEE - UFFC and see if he would make the power point presentations available like he has done with his post. I would not
          Message 4 of 7 , Sep 2, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Might try contacting John Vig at the IEEE - UFFC and see if he would
            make the power point presentations available like he has done with
            his post. I would not mind getting copies on ppt, but for now I
            think you will have to just copy each frame.

            Dick
            K9IVB
            --- In softrock40@yahoogroups.com, "Claudio Re" <ReClaudio@...> wrote:
            >
            > Thanks a lot Dick !
            > What a nice and huge docs to digest ....!
            > Some documents are in frames and I was not able to download them
            > totally .
            > Any suggestions ?
            > CLaudio I1RFQ
            >
            >
            > --- In softrock40@yahoogroups.com, "dick_faust" <dick_faust@>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > I was going to write something, but the following references do a
            > > much better job at teaching and answering many of the questions
            > > recently posted.
            > >
            > > Quartz Crystal Resonators and Oscillators for Frequency Control
            > and
            > > Timing Applications - A Tutorial, by John R. Vig [3 formats]
            > > http://www.ieee-uffc.org/freqcontrol/VigBallato/fcdevices.PDF
            > >
            > > http://www.ieee-
            > > uffc.org/freqcontrol/tutorials/vig2/tutorial2_files/frame.htm
            > >
            > > http://www.ieee-uffc.org/freqcontrol/tutorials/vig3/vig3.ppt
            > >
            > > The Fundamental Theory of Low Noise Oscillators with Special
            > > Reference to Some Detailed Designs, by J. Everard
            > > http://www.ieee-uffc.org/freqcontrol/tutorials/FCS%20Tutorials%
            > > 2000/everard.pdf
            > >
            > > Low Noise Oscillator Design and Performance, by Michael M.
            Driscoll
            > > http://www.ieee-
            > > uffc.org/freqcontrol/tutorials/2002_IEEE_Tutorial_files/frame.htm
            > >
            > > Clock Jitter, by R. Temple
            > > http://www.ieee-uffc.org/freqcontrol/tutorials/FCS%20Tutorials%
            > > 2000/Temple_files/frame.htm
            > >
            > > Now my addition is limited to some crystal specifications & notes
            > as
            > > apply to the 20/30M daughter board.
            > >
            > > The crystal should be specified as a fundamental series resonate
            > > device at what ever make tolerance desired. Note: the Butler
            > > oscillator operates on the fundamental frequency which is
            slightly
            > > different than 3rd overtone. I have no idea what drive level is
            > > present, but stay in HC-49 case, if at all possible, as this is
            > the
            > > largest quartz blank.
            > >
            > > The Butler oscillator uses the "tuned" tank circuit to extract
            the
            > > third harmonic and provide the balance of the phase shift and
            gain
            > > required to sustain oscillation. The "tuned" circuit needs to
            > > resonate higher than the third harmonic to meet the operating
            > > conditions and usually is not critical [often why swamped with a
            > > resistor]. The circuit will also work with a fundamental crystal
            > but
            > > at a higher crystal drive current. In both cases the actual
            > > operating frequency will be somewhat higher than the actual
            series
            > > resonant frequency. So use a frequency counter [or radio] to
            > > determine the exact frequency.
            > >
            > > The series resonant frequency of a crystal is always lower than
            > the
            > > parallel resonant frequency. Parallel resonant crystals are
            > > correlated with an external parallel capacitor across the
            crystal,
            > > usually 18pF, 20pF or 32pF. The higher the external cap, the
            > lower
            > > the anti-resonant [parallel resonant] frequency will be.
            > Oscillators
            > > always operate between the series and loaded anti-resonant
            > > frequencies. [Exception: If there is an external inductor, it
            > will
            > > move the series resonant frequency lower]
            > >
            > > It is quite simple to measure the two frequencies of a crystal
            > with
            > > minimum equipment. A stable 50 ohm signal generator or DDS and a
            > rf
            > > meter [a receiver, RF Voltmeter or an rf probe if you have a
            large
            > > enough signal]. Take 2 resistors from 1K to 10K and connect
            > together
            > > in series. Connect one end to the generator and the other to the
            > > meter. Connect one lead of the crystal at the center and the
            > other
            > > to the shields [gnd] of the generator and meter. As you manually
            > > sweep the generator through the series resonant frequency of the
            > > crystal there will be an 80 to 100 db drop in amplitude about 5Hz
            > > wide at the series resonant frequency - so go slow. If you put
            > the
            > > crystal in series with the resistors the same effect will be
            > observed
            > > at a somewhat higher frequency when the elements are parallel
            > > resonant and block the signal. A 20pF cap in parallel with the
            > > crystal will lower the frequency to the 20pF correlation
            > frequency.
            > > The resistors serve to isolate the external strays and give very
            > > reliable readings. The anti-resonant null is much broader than
            > the
            > > series resonant due to the effects of circuit Q.
            > >
            > > A final reference that may be found in Amateur publications is :
            > > DEMPHANO, A device for measuring phase noise, Communications
            > > Quarterly, Spring, 1999, pp. 9-17 by J. Makhinson – cq199904.pdf
            > >
            > > Dick Faust
            > > K9IVB
            > >
            >
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