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Re: [softrock40] Crystals & Oscllators [Maybe more than you wanted to know]

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  • Roderick Wall
    Hi Dick, I ve searched the Internet but can t find your reference to: Do you know where I can get a copy from? { A final reference that may be found in Amateur
    Message 1 of 7 , Sep 1, 2007
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      Hi Dick,
       
      I've searched the Internet but can't find your reference to:
      Do you know where I can get a copy from?
       
      {
      A final reference that may be found in Amateur publications is:
      DEMPHANO, A device for measuring phase noise, Communications
      Quarterly, spring, 1999, pp. 9-17 by J. Makhinson – cq199904.pdf

      Dick Faust
      K9IVB
      }
       
      Thanks for a very interesting discussion on Crystal Oscillators,
       
      Roderick Wall, VK3BKO.
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 9:27 AM
      Subject: [softrock40] Crystals & Oscllators [Maybe more than you wanted to know]

      I was going to write something, but the following references do a
      much better job at teaching and answering many of the questions
      recently posted.

      Quartz Crystal Resonators and Oscillators for Frequency Control and
      Timing Applications - A Tutorial, by John R. Vig [3 formats]
      http://www.ieee- uffc.org/ freqcontrol/ VigBallato/ fcdevices. PDF

      http://www.ieee-
      uffc.org/freqcontro l/tutorials/ vig2/tutorial2_ files/frame. htm

      http://www.ieee- uffc.org/ freqcontrol/ tutorials/ vig3/vig3. ppt

      The Fundamental Theory of Low Noise Oscillators with Special
      Reference to Some Detailed Designs, by J. Everard
      http://www.ieee- uffc.org/ freqcontrol/ tutorials/ FCS%20Tutorials%
      2000/everard. pdf

      Low Noise Oscillator Design and Performance, by Michael M. Driscoll
      http://www.ieee-
      uffc.org/freqcontro l/tutorials/ 2002_IEEE_ Tutorial_ files/frame. htm

      Clock Jitter, by R. Temple
      http://www.ieee- uffc.org/ freqcontrol/ tutorials/ FCS%20Tutorials%
      2000/Temple_ files/frame. htm

      Now my addition is limited to some crystal specifications & notes as
      apply to the 20/30M daughter board.

      The crystal should be specified as a fundamental series resonate
      device at what ever make tolerance desired. Note: the Butler
      oscillator operates on the fundamental frequency which is slightly
      different than 3rd overtone. I have no idea what drive level is
      present, but stay in HC-49 case, if at all possible, as this is the
      largest quartz blank.

      The Butler oscillator uses the "tuned" tank circuit to extract the
      third harmonic and provide the balance of the phase shift and gain
      required to sustain oscillation. The "tuned" circuit needs to
      resonate higher than the third harmonic to meet the operating
      conditions and usually is not critical [often why swamped with a
      resistor]. The circuit will also work with a fundamental crystal but
      at a higher crystal drive current. In both cases the actual
      operating frequency will be somewhat higher than the actual series
      resonant frequency. So use a frequency counter [or radio] to
      determine the exact frequency.

      The series resonant frequency of a crystal is always lower than the
      parallel resonant frequency. Parallel resonant crystals are
      correlated with an external parallel capacitor across the crystal,
      usually 18pF, 20pF or 32pF. The higher the external cap, the lower
      the anti-resonant [parallel resonant] frequency will be. Oscillators
      always operate between the series and loaded anti-resonant
      frequencies. [Exception: If there is an external inductor, it will
      move the series resonant frequency lower]

      It is quite simple to measure the two frequencies of a crystal with
      minimum equipment. A stable 50 ohm signal generator or DDS and a rf
      meter [a receiver, RF Voltmeter or an rf probe if you have a large
      enough signal]. Take 2 resistors from 1K to 10K and connect together
      in series. Connect one end to the generator and the other to the
      meter. Connect one lead of the crystal at the center and the other
      to the shields [gnd] of the generator and meter. As you manually
      sweep the generator through the series resonant frequency of the
      crystal there will be an 80 to 100 db drop in amplitude about 5Hz
      wide at the series resonant frequency - so go slow. If you put the
      crystal in series with the resistors the same effect will be observed
      at a somewhat higher frequency when the elements are parallel
      resonant and block the signal. A 20pF cap in parallel with the
      crystal will lower the frequency to the 20pF correlation frequency.
      The resistors serve to isolate the external strays and give very
      reliable readings. The anti-resonant null is much broader than the
      series resonant due to the effects of circuit Q.

      A final reference that may be found in Amateur publications is :
      DEMPHANO, A device for measuring phase noise, Communications
      Quarterly, Spring, 1999, pp. 9-17 by J. Makhinson – cq199904.pdf

      Dick Faust
      K9IVB


      No virus found in this incoming message.
      Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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    • dick_faust
      The file ref was to Experimental Methods in RF Design CD but also on Communications Quarterly CD. I also forgot to include another very important recently
      Message 2 of 7 , Sep 1, 2007
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        The file ref was to Experimental Methods in RF Design CD but also on
        Communications Quarterly CD.

        I also forgot to include another very important recently published
        reference link to the Leeson Model which I have added below:

        The Leeson Effect - Phase Noise in Feedback Oscillators, by Enrico
        Rubiola
        http://www.ieee-uffc.org/freqcontrol/tutorials/Rubiola/Rubiola.pdf

        The lecture notes are excellent while the book is very technical

        Dick

        --- In softrock40@yahoogroups.com, "Roderick Wall" <rwallmail@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Hi Dick,
        >
        > I've searched the Internet but can't find your reference to:
        > Do you know where I can get a copy from?
        >
        > {
        > A final reference that may be found in Amateur publications is:
        > DEMPHANO, A device for measuring phase noise, Communications
        > Quarterly, spring, 1999, pp. 9-17 by J. Makhinson - cq199904.pdf
        >
        > Dick Faust
        > K9IVB
        > }
        >
        > Thanks for a very interesting discussion on Crystal Oscillators,
        >
        > Roderick Wall, VK3BKO.
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: dick_faust
        > To: softrock40@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 9:27 AM
        > Subject: [softrock40] Crystals & Oscllators [Maybe more than you
        wanted to know]
        >
        >
        > I was going to write something, but the following references do a
        > much better job at teaching and answering many of the questions
        > recently posted.
        >
        > Quartz Crystal Resonators and Oscillators for Frequency Control
        and
        > Timing Applications - A Tutorial, by John R. Vig [3 formats]
        > http://www.ieee-uffc.org/freqcontrol/VigBallato/fcdevices.PDF
        >
        > http://www.ieee-
        > uffc.org/freqcontrol/tutorials/vig2/tutorial2_files/frame.htm
        >
        > http://www.ieee-uffc.org/freqcontrol/tutorials/vig3/vig3.ppt
        >
        > The Fundamental Theory of Low Noise Oscillators with Special
        > Reference to Some Detailed Designs, by J. Everard
        > http://www.ieee-uffc.org/freqcontrol/tutorials/FCS%20Tutorials%
        > 2000/everard.pdf
        >
        > Low Noise Oscillator Design and Performance, by Michael M.
        Driscoll
        > http://www.ieee-
        > uffc.org/freqcontrol/tutorials/2002_IEEE_Tutorial_files/frame.htm
        >
        > Clock Jitter, by R. Temple
        > http://www.ieee-uffc.org/freqcontrol/tutorials/FCS%20Tutorials%
        > 2000/Temple_files/frame.htm
        >
        > Now my addition is limited to some crystal specifications & notes
        as
        > apply to the 20/30M daughter board.
        >
        > The crystal should be specified as a fundamental series resonate
        > device at what ever make tolerance desired. Note: the Butler
        > oscillator operates on the fundamental frequency which is
        slightly
        > different than 3rd overtone. I have no idea what drive level is
        > present, but stay in HC-49 case, if at all possible, as this is
        the
        > largest quartz blank.
        >
        > The Butler oscillator uses the "tuned" tank circuit to extract
        the
        > third harmonic and provide the balance of the phase shift and
        gain
        > required to sustain oscillation. The "tuned" circuit needs to
        > resonate higher than the third harmonic to meet the operating
        > conditions and usually is not critical [often why swamped with a
        > resistor]. The circuit will also work with a fundamental crystal
        but
        > at a higher crystal drive current. In both cases the actual
        > operating frequency will be somewhat higher than the actual
        series
        > resonant frequency. So use a frequency counter [or radio] to
        > determine the exact frequency.
        >
        > The series resonant frequency of a crystal is always lower than
        the
        > parallel resonant frequency. Parallel resonant crystals are
        > correlated with an external parallel capacitor across the
        crystal,
        > usually 18pF, 20pF or 32pF. The higher the external cap, the
        lower
        > the anti-resonant [parallel resonant] frequency will be.
        Oscillators
        > always operate between the series and loaded anti-resonant
        > frequencies. [Exception: If there is an external inductor, it
        will
        > move the series resonant frequency lower]
        >
        > It is quite simple to measure the two frequencies of a crystal
        with
        > minimum equipment. A stable 50 ohm signal generator or DDS and a
        rf
        > meter [a receiver, RF Voltmeter or an rf probe if you have a
        large
        > enough signal]. Take 2 resistors from 1K to 10K and connect
        together
        > in series. Connect one end to the generator and the other to the
        > meter. Connect one lead of the crystal at the center and the
        other
        > to the shields [gnd] of the generator and meter. As you manually
        > sweep the generator through the series resonant frequency of the
        > crystal there will be an 80 to 100 db drop in amplitude about 5Hz
        > wide at the series resonant frequency - so go slow. If you put
        the
        > crystal in series with the resistors the same effect will be
        observed
        > at a somewhat higher frequency when the elements are parallel
        > resonant and block the signal. A 20pF cap in parallel with the
        > crystal will lower the frequency to the 20pF correlation
        frequency.
        > The resistors serve to isolate the external strays and give very
        > reliable readings. The anti-resonant null is much broader than
        the
        > series resonant due to the effects of circuit Q.
        >
        > A final reference that may be found in Amateur publications is :
        > DEMPHANO, A device for measuring phase noise, Communications
        > Quarterly, Spring, 1999, pp. 9-17 by J. Makhinson - cq199904.pdf
        >
        > Dick Faust
        > K9IVB
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --------------------------------------------------------------------
        ----------
        >
        >
        > No virus found in this incoming message.
        > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
        > Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.1/982 - Release Date:
        8/31/2007 5:21 PM
        >
      • Claudio Re
        My big compliment Jack ! Thanks . Claudio I1RFQ ... with ... methods ... 20Parameters.pdf ... with
        Message 3 of 7 , Sep 2, 2007
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          My big compliment Jack !
          Thanks .
          Claudio I1RFQ


          --- In softrock40@yahoogroups.com, Jack Smith <Jack.Smith@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > dick_faust wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > <snip>
          >
          >
          > > It is quite simple to measure the two frequencies of a crystal
          with
          > > minimum equipment.
          > > K9IVB
          >
          >
          >
          > I have written a detailed comparison of a dozen or so different
          methods
          > of measuring the parameters of a crystal, available at
          > http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/Documents/Crystal%20Motional%
          20Parameters.pdf
          >
          > The techniques are compared against a standard reference crystal
          with
          > certified motional parameters.
          >
          > Jack K8ZOA
          >
        • Claudio Re
          Thanks a lot Dick ! What a nice and huge docs to digest ....! Some documents are in frames and I was not able to download them totally . Any suggestions ?
          Message 4 of 7 , Sep 2, 2007
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            Thanks a lot Dick !
            What a nice and huge docs to digest ....!
            Some documents are in frames and I was not able to download them
            totally .
            Any suggestions ?
            CLaudio I1RFQ


            --- In softrock40@yahoogroups.com, "dick_faust" <dick_faust@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > I was going to write something, but the following references do a
            > much better job at teaching and answering many of the questions
            > recently posted.
            >
            > Quartz Crystal Resonators and Oscillators for Frequency Control
            and
            > Timing Applications - A Tutorial, by John R. Vig [3 formats]
            > http://www.ieee-uffc.org/freqcontrol/VigBallato/fcdevices.PDF
            >
            > http://www.ieee-
            > uffc.org/freqcontrol/tutorials/vig2/tutorial2_files/frame.htm
            >
            > http://www.ieee-uffc.org/freqcontrol/tutorials/vig3/vig3.ppt
            >
            > The Fundamental Theory of Low Noise Oscillators with Special
            > Reference to Some Detailed Designs, by J. Everard
            > http://www.ieee-uffc.org/freqcontrol/tutorials/FCS%20Tutorials%
            > 2000/everard.pdf
            >
            > Low Noise Oscillator Design and Performance, by Michael M. Driscoll
            > http://www.ieee-
            > uffc.org/freqcontrol/tutorials/2002_IEEE_Tutorial_files/frame.htm
            >
            > Clock Jitter, by R. Temple
            > http://www.ieee-uffc.org/freqcontrol/tutorials/FCS%20Tutorials%
            > 2000/Temple_files/frame.htm
            >
            > Now my addition is limited to some crystal specifications & notes
            as
            > apply to the 20/30M daughter board.
            >
            > The crystal should be specified as a fundamental series resonate
            > device at what ever make tolerance desired. Note: the Butler
            > oscillator operates on the fundamental frequency which is slightly
            > different than 3rd overtone. I have no idea what drive level is
            > present, but stay in HC-49 case, if at all possible, as this is
            the
            > largest quartz blank.
            >
            > The Butler oscillator uses the "tuned" tank circuit to extract the
            > third harmonic and provide the balance of the phase shift and gain
            > required to sustain oscillation. The "tuned" circuit needs to
            > resonate higher than the third harmonic to meet the operating
            > conditions and usually is not critical [often why swamped with a
            > resistor]. The circuit will also work with a fundamental crystal
            but
            > at a higher crystal drive current. In both cases the actual
            > operating frequency will be somewhat higher than the actual series
            > resonant frequency. So use a frequency counter [or radio] to
            > determine the exact frequency.
            >
            > The series resonant frequency of a crystal is always lower than
            the
            > parallel resonant frequency. Parallel resonant crystals are
            > correlated with an external parallel capacitor across the crystal,
            > usually 18pF, 20pF or 32pF. The higher the external cap, the
            lower
            > the anti-resonant [parallel resonant] frequency will be.
            Oscillators
            > always operate between the series and loaded anti-resonant
            > frequencies. [Exception: If there is an external inductor, it
            will
            > move the series resonant frequency lower]
            >
            > It is quite simple to measure the two frequencies of a crystal
            with
            > minimum equipment. A stable 50 ohm signal generator or DDS and a
            rf
            > meter [a receiver, RF Voltmeter or an rf probe if you have a large
            > enough signal]. Take 2 resistors from 1K to 10K and connect
            together
            > in series. Connect one end to the generator and the other to the
            > meter. Connect one lead of the crystal at the center and the
            other
            > to the shields [gnd] of the generator and meter. As you manually
            > sweep the generator through the series resonant frequency of the
            > crystal there will be an 80 to 100 db drop in amplitude about 5Hz
            > wide at the series resonant frequency - so go slow. If you put
            the
            > crystal in series with the resistors the same effect will be
            observed
            > at a somewhat higher frequency when the elements are parallel
            > resonant and block the signal. A 20pF cap in parallel with the
            > crystal will lower the frequency to the 20pF correlation
            frequency.
            > The resistors serve to isolate the external strays and give very
            > reliable readings. The anti-resonant null is much broader than
            the
            > series resonant due to the effects of circuit Q.
            >
            > A final reference that may be found in Amateur publications is :
            > DEMPHANO, A device for measuring phase noise, Communications
            > Quarterly, Spring, 1999, pp. 9-17 by J. Makhinson – cq199904.pdf
            >
            > Dick Faust
            > K9IVB
            >
          • dick_faust
            Might try contacting John Vig at the IEEE - UFFC and see if he would make the power point presentations available like he has done with his post. I would not
            Message 5 of 7 , Sep 2, 2007
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              Might try contacting John Vig at the IEEE - UFFC and see if he would
              make the power point presentations available like he has done with
              his post. I would not mind getting copies on ppt, but for now I
              think you will have to just copy each frame.

              Dick
              K9IVB
              --- In softrock40@yahoogroups.com, "Claudio Re" <ReClaudio@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thanks a lot Dick !
              > What a nice and huge docs to digest ....!
              > Some documents are in frames and I was not able to download them
              > totally .
              > Any suggestions ?
              > CLaudio I1RFQ
              >
              >
              > --- In softrock40@yahoogroups.com, "dick_faust" <dick_faust@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > I was going to write something, but the following references do a
              > > much better job at teaching and answering many of the questions
              > > recently posted.
              > >
              > > Quartz Crystal Resonators and Oscillators for Frequency Control
              > and
              > > Timing Applications - A Tutorial, by John R. Vig [3 formats]
              > > http://www.ieee-uffc.org/freqcontrol/VigBallato/fcdevices.PDF
              > >
              > > http://www.ieee-
              > > uffc.org/freqcontrol/tutorials/vig2/tutorial2_files/frame.htm
              > >
              > > http://www.ieee-uffc.org/freqcontrol/tutorials/vig3/vig3.ppt
              > >
              > > The Fundamental Theory of Low Noise Oscillators with Special
              > > Reference to Some Detailed Designs, by J. Everard
              > > http://www.ieee-uffc.org/freqcontrol/tutorials/FCS%20Tutorials%
              > > 2000/everard.pdf
              > >
              > > Low Noise Oscillator Design and Performance, by Michael M.
              Driscoll
              > > http://www.ieee-
              > > uffc.org/freqcontrol/tutorials/2002_IEEE_Tutorial_files/frame.htm
              > >
              > > Clock Jitter, by R. Temple
              > > http://www.ieee-uffc.org/freqcontrol/tutorials/FCS%20Tutorials%
              > > 2000/Temple_files/frame.htm
              > >
              > > Now my addition is limited to some crystal specifications & notes
              > as
              > > apply to the 20/30M daughter board.
              > >
              > > The crystal should be specified as a fundamental series resonate
              > > device at what ever make tolerance desired. Note: the Butler
              > > oscillator operates on the fundamental frequency which is
              slightly
              > > different than 3rd overtone. I have no idea what drive level is
              > > present, but stay in HC-49 case, if at all possible, as this is
              > the
              > > largest quartz blank.
              > >
              > > The Butler oscillator uses the "tuned" tank circuit to extract
              the
              > > third harmonic and provide the balance of the phase shift and
              gain
              > > required to sustain oscillation. The "tuned" circuit needs to
              > > resonate higher than the third harmonic to meet the operating
              > > conditions and usually is not critical [often why swamped with a
              > > resistor]. The circuit will also work with a fundamental crystal
              > but
              > > at a higher crystal drive current. In both cases the actual
              > > operating frequency will be somewhat higher than the actual
              series
              > > resonant frequency. So use a frequency counter [or radio] to
              > > determine the exact frequency.
              > >
              > > The series resonant frequency of a crystal is always lower than
              > the
              > > parallel resonant frequency. Parallel resonant crystals are
              > > correlated with an external parallel capacitor across the
              crystal,
              > > usually 18pF, 20pF or 32pF. The higher the external cap, the
              > lower
              > > the anti-resonant [parallel resonant] frequency will be.
              > Oscillators
              > > always operate between the series and loaded anti-resonant
              > > frequencies. [Exception: If there is an external inductor, it
              > will
              > > move the series resonant frequency lower]
              > >
              > > It is quite simple to measure the two frequencies of a crystal
              > with
              > > minimum equipment. A stable 50 ohm signal generator or DDS and a
              > rf
              > > meter [a receiver, RF Voltmeter or an rf probe if you have a
              large
              > > enough signal]. Take 2 resistors from 1K to 10K and connect
              > together
              > > in series. Connect one end to the generator and the other to the
              > > meter. Connect one lead of the crystal at the center and the
              > other
              > > to the shields [gnd] of the generator and meter. As you manually
              > > sweep the generator through the series resonant frequency of the
              > > crystal there will be an 80 to 100 db drop in amplitude about 5Hz
              > > wide at the series resonant frequency - so go slow. If you put
              > the
              > > crystal in series with the resistors the same effect will be
              > observed
              > > at a somewhat higher frequency when the elements are parallel
              > > resonant and block the signal. A 20pF cap in parallel with the
              > > crystal will lower the frequency to the 20pF correlation
              > frequency.
              > > The resistors serve to isolate the external strays and give very
              > > reliable readings. The anti-resonant null is much broader than
              > the
              > > series resonant due to the effects of circuit Q.
              > >
              > > A final reference that may be found in Amateur publications is :
              > > DEMPHANO, A device for measuring phase noise, Communications
              > > Quarterly, Spring, 1999, pp. 9-17 by J. Makhinson – cq199904.pdf
              > >
              > > Dick Faust
              > > K9IVB
              > >
              >
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