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OpAmp question on GBW

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  • Kees & Sandy
    As you approach the specified OpAmp Gain Bandwidth, how does the OpAmp react ? Rfb/Rg no longer specifies the OpAmp gain (less) ? The OpAmp becomes less
    Message 1 of 10 , Jul 1 6:57 PM
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      As you approach the specified OpAmp Gain Bandwidth, how does the OpAmp react ? Rfb/Rg no longer specifies the OpAmp gain (less) ? The OpAmp becomes less responsive to higher frequencies (and maybe undesired noise) ?

      73 Kees K5BCQ

    • Bill Dumke
      Kees, The gain bandwidth product is a constant for any opamp. You have maximum BW at Unity Gain and Maximum Gain at a very Narrow Bandwidth. Stability is
      Message 2 of 10 , Jul 1 7:12 PM
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        Kees,

        The gain bandwidth product is a constant for any opamp. You have
        maximum BW at Unity Gain and Maximum Gain at a very Narrow Bandwidth.
        Stability is usually worse at unity gain, but there are is usually a
        compensating capacitor you can add to get better stability at unity
        gain, although some opamps are internally compensated.

        Bill wa9pwr

        Kees & Sandy wrote:
        >
        > As you approach the specified OpAmp Gain Bandwidth, how does the OpAmp
        > react ? Rfb/Rg no longer specifies the OpAmp gain (less) ? The OpAmp
        > becomes less responsive to higher frequencies (and maybe undesired
        > noise) ?
        >
        > 73 Kees K5BCQ
        >
        >
      • Milt Cram
        ... Kees, The OpAmp Gain Bandwidth is the frequency at which the amplifier gain drops to unity. No combination of Rfb/Rg resistors can make the gain any
        Message 3 of 10 , Jul 1 7:18 PM
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          Kees & Sandy wrote:
          >
          > As you approach the specified OpAmp Gain Bandwidth, how does the OpAmp
          > react ? Rfb/Rg no longer specifies the OpAmp gain (less) ? The OpAmp
          > becomes less responsive to higher frequencies (and maybe undesired
          > noise) ?
          >
          > 73 Kees K5BCQ
          >
          >
          >
          Kees,

          The OpAmp Gain Bandwidth is the frequency at which the amplifier gain
          drops to unity. No combination of Rfb/Rg resistors can make the gain
          any higher at this frequency. Generally the OpAmp gain falls at
          6dB/octave above the "corner frequency". The slope of the gain curve at
          unity gain will be approximately -6dB/octave, but may be somewhat
          different from that depending on the design of the amplifier. The phase
          shift will also be nominally 90 degrees, but may be different, again
          depending on design (which includes internal compensation to make the
          amplifier stable at unity gain. Some amplifiers are designed which are
          not stable at unity gain, and frequently spec a minimum gain for
          stability (e.g. x2 or x10).

          Milt, W8NUE
        • Kees & Sandy
          Thanks for the response Bill. I was just wondering what happens if you exceed the GBW ....say you have a frequency range into the OpAmp and a gain which when
          Message 4 of 10 , Jul 1 7:49 PM
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            Thanks for the response Bill. I was just wondering what happens if you exceed the GBW ....say you have a frequency range into the OpAmp and a gain which when multiplied by the frequency range is the GBW. If you further increase the gain by changing Rfb what happens ....is the frequency bandwidth automatically reduced or will the OpAmp not respond properly to Rfb/Rg. Or is it just a distorted waveform over the frequency range ?

            Kees

            -- Bill Dumke <billd@...> wrote:

            Kees,

            The gain bandwidth product is a constant for any opamp. You have
            maximum BW at Unity Gain and Maximum Gain at a very Narrow Bandwidth.
            Stability is usually worse at unity gain, but there are is usually a
            compensating capacitor you can add to get better stability at unity
            gain, although some opamps are internally compensated.

            Bill wa9pwr

            Kees & Sandy wrote:

            >
            > As you approach the specified OpAmp Gain Bandwidth, how does the OpAmp
            > react ? Rfb/Rg no longer specifies the OpAmp gain (less) ? The OpAmp
            > becomes less responsive to higher frequencies (and maybe undesired
            > noise) ?
            >
            > 73 Kees K5BCQ
            >
            >

          • Kees & Sandy
            Thanks for the response, Milt. I think that s basically what I was saying...... The GBW is the max frequency for a gain of 1, you can also max out at that
            Message 5 of 10 , Jul 1 8:02 PM
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              Thanks for the response, Milt. I think that's basically what I was saying...... The GBW is the max frequency for a gain of 1, you can also max out at that frequency/100 if your gain is 100, or at that frequency/200 if your gain is 200. If you are at the max, further trying to increase the gain by changing Rfb/Rg does nothing at that frequency ? or does it start automatically trading off frequency vs amplification (loose the Rfb/Rg ratio formula for gain) to keep the GBW which is constant. Or does it just start distorting the amplified waveform. 

              73 Kees K5BCQ

              -- Milt Cram <w8nue@...> wrote:

              Kees & Sandy wrote:

              >
              > As you approach the specified OpAmp Gain Bandwidth, how does the OpAmp
              > react ? Rfb/Rg no longer specifies the OpAmp gain (less) ? The OpAmp
              > becomes less responsive to higher frequencies (and maybe undesired
              > noise) ?
              >
              > 73 Kees K5BCQ
              >
              >
              >
              Kees,

              The OpAmp Gain Bandwidth is the frequency at which the amplifier gain
              drops to unity. No combination of Rfb/Rg resistors can make the gain
              any higher at this frequency. Generally the OpAmp gain falls at
              6dB/octave above the "corner frequency". The slope of the gain curve at
              unity gain will be approximately -6dB/octave, but may be somewhat
              different from that depending on the design of the amplifier. The phase
              shift will also be nominally 90 degrees, but may be different, again
              depending on design (which includes internal compensation to make the
              amplifier stable at unity gain. Some amplifiers are designed which are
              not stable at unity gain, and frequently spec a minimum gain for
              stability (e.g. x2 or x10).

              Milt, W8NUE

            • Kees & Sandy
              I should say try to exceed the GBW......... -- Kees & Sandy wrote: Thanks for the response Bill. I was just wondering what happens if
              Message 6 of 10 , Jul 1 8:03 PM
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                I should say "try to exceed" the GBW.........

                -- "Kees & Sandy" <windy10605@...> wrote:

                Thanks for the response Bill. I was just wondering what happens if you exceed the GBW ....say you have a frequency range into the OpAmp and a gain which when multiplied by the frequency range is the GBW. If you further increase the gain by changing Rfb what happens ....is the frequency bandwidth automatically reduced or will the OpAmp not respond properly to Rfb/Rg. Or is it just a distorted waveform over the frequency range ?

                Kees

                -- Bill Dumke <billd@netnet. net> wrote:

                Kees,

                The gain bandwidth product is a constant for any opamp. You have
                maximum BW at Unity Gain and Maximum Gain at a very Narrow Bandwidth.
                Stability is usually worse at unity gain, but there are is usually a
                compensating capacitor you can add to get better stability at unity
                gain, although some opamps are internally compensated.

                Bill wa9pwr

                Kees & Sandy wrote:

                >
                > As you approach the specified OpAmp Gain Bandwidth, how does the OpAmp
                > react ? Rfb/Rg no longer specifies the OpAmp gain (less) ? The OpAmp
                > becomes less responsive to higher frequencies (and maybe undesired
                > noise) ?
                >
                > 73 Kees K5BCQ
                >
                >

              • Tony Langdon
                ... You can t exceed the GBW, it s a physical limitation of the op amp being considered. In fact, as you approach the unity gain frequency, the op amp is no
                Message 7 of 10 , Jul 1 8:50 PM
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                  At 12:49 PM 7/2/2007, you wrote:

                  >Thanks for the response Bill. I was just wondering what happens if
                  >you exceed the GBW ....say you have a frequency range into the OpAmp
                  >and a gain which when multiplied by the frequency range is the GBW.
                  >If you further increase the gain by changing Rfb what happens ....is
                  >the frequency bandwidth automatically reduced or will the OpAmp not
                  >respond properly to Rfb/Rg. Or is it just a distorted waveform over
                  >the frequency range ?

                  You can't exceed the GBW, it's a physical limitation of the op amp
                  being considered. In fact, as you approach the unity gain frequency,
                  the op amp is no longer acting as an op amp by definition, since one
                  part of the definition includes having very high open loop gain, and
                  the familiar formulas no longer apply (you have to take the lesser
                  gain of the device into consideration).

                  73 de VK3JED
                  http://vkradio.com
                • Tony Langdon
                  ... You ll get less gain and/or bandwidth than you hoped for, for starters. If there are any non linearities in the op amp at high frequencies, these will
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jul 1 8:55 PM
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                    At 01:03 PM 7/2/2007, you wrote:

                    >I should say "try to exceed" the GBW.........

                    You'll get less gain and/or bandwidth than you hoped for, for
                    starters. If there are any non linearities in the op amp at high
                    frequencies, these will also become apparent, because there is less
                    negative feedback available (due to the low open loop gain).

                    If you build an amplifier with 10x gain (at low frequencies) and
                    attempt to run it at the unity gain frequency, then the actual gain
                    will be around unity (may be more or less, because there is also like
                    to be a phase shift in the output, which affects the feedback
                    loop). It certainly won't be 10.

                    73 de VK3JED
                    http://vkradio.com
                  • Tony Langdon
                    ... The frequency response of the amplifier is affected by the gain. As you increase the gain (by changing the feedback resistors), you lower the frequency of
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jul 1 9:03 PM
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                      At 01:02 PM 7/2/2007, you wrote:

                      >Thanks for the response, Milt. I think that's basically what I was
                      >saying...... The GBW is the max frequency for a gain of 1, you can
                      >also max out at that frequency/100 if your gain is 100, or at that
                      >frequency/200 if your gain is 200. If you are at the max, further
                      >trying to increase the gain by changing Rfb/Rg does nothing at that
                      >frequency ? or does it start automatically trading off frequency vs
                      >amplification (loose the Rfb/Rg ratio formula for gain) to keep the
                      >GBW which is constant. Or does it just start distorting the
                      >amplified waveform.

                      The frequency response of the amplifier is affected by the gain. As
                      you increase the gain (by changing the feedback resistors), you lower
                      the frequency of the corner point in the frequency response, so yes
                      you could say (in simplistic terms) you are trading gain for
                      bandwidth and vice-versa. If you need a higher gain bandwidth
                      product, you have to either choose a device with a higher gain
                      bandwidth product, or use multiple lower gain stages in cascade (e.g.
                      2 x 10dB vs 1 x 20dB should give you a little over 3x the bandwidth
                      at 20dB gain, all other things being equal - 10dB is a voltage ratio
                      of 3.16 roughly).


                      73 de VK3JED
                      http://vkradio.com
                    • Kees & Sandy
                      Thanks Tom, and the other guys. I understand, or at least have a much better idea of what happens. 73 Kees K5BCQ -- Tony Langdon wrote: ...
                      Message 10 of 10 , Jul 2 7:30 AM
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                        Thanks Tom, and the other guys.

                        I understand, or at least have a much better idea of what happens.

                        73 Kees K5BCQ

                        -- Tony Langdon <vk3jed@...> wrote:

                        At 01:02 PM 7/2/2007, you wrote:

                        >Thanks for the response, Milt. I think that's basically what I was
                        >saying..... . The GBW is the max frequency for a gain of 1, you can
                        >also max out at that frequency/100 if your gain is 100, or at that
                        >frequency/200 if your gain is 200. If you are at the max, further
                        >trying to increase the gain by changing Rfb/Rg does nothing at that
                        >frequency ? or does it start automatically trading off frequency vs
                        >amplification (loose the Rfb/Rg ratio formula for gain) to keep the
                        >GBW which is constant. Or does it just start distorting the
                        >amplified waveform.

                        The frequency response of the amplifier is affected by the gain. As
                        you increase the gain (by changing the feedback resistors), you lower
                        the frequency of the corner point in the frequency response, so yes
                        you could say (in simplistic terms) you are trading gain for
                        bandwidth and vice-versa. If you need a higher gain bandwidth
                        product, you have to either choose a device with a higher gain
                        bandwidth product, or use multiple lower gain stages in cascade (e.g.
                        2 x 10dB vs 1 x 20dB should give you a little over 3x the bandwidth
                        at 20dB gain, all other things being equal - 10dB is a voltage ratio
                        of 3.16 roughly).

                        73 de VK3JED
                        http://vkradio. com

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