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Re: [soaplite] Re: soap call - fire and forget

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  • Aaron Trevena
    ... It sounds like you need ebXML rather than plain SOAP. ebXML Messaging (usually) runs on top of SOAP with Attachments - it supports synchronous and
    Message 1 of 9 , Jan 9, 2004
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      On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Lenz Gschwendtner wrote:
      > thanks for that but we are programming a time critical high volume
      > service so working with grand central in this place is not the thing
      > planned. i know grand central already but in our situation in the moment
      > there is no plan to use the services provided.
      >
      > thanks for the info, but it is more essential for us in the moment to
      > know how to implement a "notification" in SOAP::Lite

      It sounds like you need ebXML rather than plain SOAP.

      ebXML Messaging (usually) runs on top of SOAP with Attachments - it
      supports synchronous and asynchronous messaging, provides Reliability and
      lots of powerful features that allow it to replace EDI.

      It is a bit heavyweight, but if you are building an application that needs
      those kind of features then it is justified and unavoidable.

      as a side note (who on the list doesn't have something to plug?) :
      I am looking for other perl developers interested in ebXML, we (a company
      I won't name yet) have some perl modules / classes that implement enough
      ebXML to hold brief (and often broken) conversations with the Hermes
      (free) ebXML MSH (a free, compliant ebXML MSH implementation written in
      Java) and hope to collaborate with others on getting it working better,
      sooner.

      cheers,

      A.

      --
      Aaron J Trevena - Perl Hacker, Kung Fu Geek, Internet Consultant
      AutoDia --- Automatic UML and HTML Specifications from Perl, C++
      and Any Datasource with a Handler. http://droogs.org/autodia
    • Alasdair Allan
      ... Well Grand Central is (just?) a broker implementating of something called Contextual Web Services, the project I m currently working on also makes
      Message 2 of 9 , Jan 9, 2004
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        > thanks for the info, but it is more essential for us in the moment to
        > know how to implement a "notification" in SOAP::Lite

        Well Grand Central is (just?) a broker implementating of something called
        Contextual Web Services, the project I'm currently working on also makes
        extensive use of them.

        You should probably look at the WS-Coordination and WS-Transaction specs,
        to see how transaction contexts are use to establish the scope of a
        transaction within an operation is executed.

        Al.
      • Bill Hess
        Is SOAP::Lite capable of perform asynchronous messages by itself. I assume the default is synchronous? And is this because of the way LWP works? One thing I
        Message 3 of 9 , Jan 9, 2004
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          Is SOAP::Lite capable of perform asynchronous messages by itself. I
          assume the default is synchronous? And is this because of the way LWP
          works?

          One thing I notice in a system we have recently developed is that when
          using is over a LAN it works great, except for the synchronous
          interaction. But when I run the system over a corporate VPN the
          interaction is "choppy" - slower and not as consistent, but any
          transaction always seems to finish OK. Could this be a result of
          SOAP::Lite or do you think it is the VPN? I have used other commercial
          client/sever type programs on this same VPN and some work fine (same as
          being on the LAN) and others are "choppy" and some are downright
          unreliable and fail. Could this be a result of some of these systems
          are synchronous/asynchronous?



          Byrne Reese wrote:
          > I apologize to spam the group with something vaguely commercial, but I
          > feel this thread warrants it.
          >
          > Grand Central is a Web Services network (technically, we call ourselves a
          > "Business Services Network" - but I am not going to mince words) - in any
          > event, Grand Central offers the ability to turn any SOAP call into an
          > asynchronous non-blocking one.
          >
          > Most SOAP calls are synchronous in nature: socket opens, request is sent,
          > message is processes, response returned, socket closes. However, as this
          > threads suggests, not all SOAP calls follow this pattern. Sometimes you
          > just want to fire off a notification. Sometimes, the SOAP call is likely
          > to take a long time and hanging up a thread, or socket for that long is
          > impractical, sometimes you just want to fire and forget... Grand Central's
          > asynchronous messaging protocol can be used with any service deployed on
          > the network.
          >
          > In a very small way you can think of GC as a proxy. In an asynchronous
          > scenario a message is posted to a service. The network accepts the
          > messages, and immediately returns a tracking number (used for the response
          > correlation later) to the sender. Mean while the message traverses the
          > system and is delivered to the utlimate destination (in some cases the
          > message is sent to multiple services when the service you are sending a
          > message to invokes a business process - we all heard of SOAP
          > intermediaries, Grand Central actually uses them!). When the response is
          > returned, it is held by Grand Central, and the user then polls for it,
          > much like you poll a POP3 mail server for email.
          >
          > Grand Central is free as long as your bandwidth is less than 25MB per
          > month. And you have me as an excellent support resource. I have made sure
          > there are lots of Perl/SOAP::Lite examples on the GC developer site. :)
          >
          > http://www.grandcentral.com/developers/
          >
          >
          >>I have been trying to do something similar - in my case I want the end
          >>user (thru a GUI) to be able to cancel the SOAP call - or at least
          >>ignore what the call returns... I think the issue is that since
          >>SOAP::Lite is using LWP to perform the HTTP communication, the process
          >>waits until a return or timeout. Perhaps there is a way to configure
          >>this??? I am experiementing with Perl 5.8.2 and using a separate
          >>thread to make the SOAP call. I have also seen ways to spawn another
          >>process to make the call so the main process is not stuck waiting
          >>around - for Win32 there is a good example in the O'reilly Programming
          >>Perl/Tk Book that goes out and gets comics and displays them back in
          >>the TK UI - this does not use SOAP, but does use LWP and the concepts
          >>work the same...
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>
          >>To visit your group on the web, go
          >>to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/soaplite/
          >>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
          >>to:soaplite-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          > ^byrne :/
          >
        • Byrne Reese
          Ok, so the million dollar question is: Is SOAP::Lite capable of performing asynchronous messaging by itself? The answer is yes, but not natively. There are
          Message 4 of 9 , Jan 9, 2004
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            Ok, so the million dollar question is:

            "Is SOAP::Lite capable of performing asynchronous messaging by itself?"

            The answer is yes, but not natively. There are two forms of asynchronous
            messaging that I have seen:

            1) A sends message to B. A transmits to B a port/socket (that A opens) for
            the response to be sent to. When B is done processing the message, they
            post their response to the port A designated. This port is the means of
            correlating the response with the initial request. (BEA does something
            similar to this I believe, but they also use a Conversation ID for
            correlation as well, and if I am not mistaken, .NET does something like
            this as well.)

            This is known as a callback style of asynchronous messaging.

            2) A sends message to B. B returns to A a Correlation ID. B polls A for
            response using Correlation ID. (Of course this is the scenario that Grand
            Central implements through its network because it's implementation it
            doesn't depend upon the endpoint to actually comprehend ANY asynchronous
            protocol.)

            This is known as poll-based style of asynchronous messaging.

            Here is the problem with 1) both asynch implementations that I know of are
            proprietary protocols. It therefore requires that the server and client
            both understand how to exchange messages, and correlate in this manner.

            If I wanted to implement something like this in SOAP::Lite, I would
            suggest implementing a CGI that could process returned responses. The
            client would have to be able to generate a unique ID and trasmit it along
            with the URL the CGI listens on to the service being called. The service
            would then have to persist and return the correlation id provided by the
            client, and post the response to the CGI/port designated by A.

            I have actually implemented something like this, but again - it is highly
            proprietary and therefore not very portable.

            Asynchronous messaging is a highly desired feature enhancement for
            SOAP::Lite, but I am not sure which standard to turn to for a COMPLETE
            answer to the problem. WS-Correlation is only part of the problem - what
            is the HTTP protocol?

            As you


            > Is SOAP::Lite capable of perform asynchronous messages by itself. I
            > assume the default is synchronous? And is this because of the way LWP
            > works?
            >
            > One thing I notice in a system we have recently developed is that when
            > using is over a LAN it works great, except for the synchronous
            > interaction. But when I run the system over a corporate VPN the
            > interaction is "choppy" - slower and not as consistent, but any
            > transaction always seems to finish OK. Could this be a result of
            > SOAP::Lite or do you think it is the VPN? I have used other commercial
            > client/sever type programs on this same VPN and some work fine (same as
            > being on the LAN) and others are "choppy" and some are downright
            > unreliable and fail. Could this be a result of some of these systems
            > are synchronous/asynchronous?
            >
            >
            >
            > Byrne Reese wrote:
            >> I apologize to spam the group with something vaguely commercial, but I
            >> feel this thread warrants it.
            >>
            >> Grand Central is a Web Services network (technically, we call ourselves
            >> a
            >> "Business Services Network" - but I am not going to mince words) - in
            >> any
            >> event, Grand Central offers the ability to turn any SOAP call into an
            >> asynchronous non-blocking one.
            >>
            >> Most SOAP calls are synchronous in nature: socket opens, request is
            >> sent,
            >> message is processes, response returned, socket closes. However, as this
            >> threads suggests, not all SOAP calls follow this pattern. Sometimes you
            >> just want to fire off a notification. Sometimes, the SOAP call is likely
            >> to take a long time and hanging up a thread, or socket for that long is
            >> impractical, sometimes you just want to fire and forget... Grand
            >> Central's
            >> asynchronous messaging protocol can be used with any service deployed on
            >> the network.
            >>
            >> In a very small way you can think of GC as a proxy. In an asynchronous
            >> scenario a message is posted to a service. The network accepts the
            >> messages, and immediately returns a tracking number (used for the
            >> response
            >> correlation later) to the sender. Mean while the message traverses the
            >> system and is delivered to the utlimate destination (in some cases the
            >> message is sent to multiple services when the service you are sending a
            >> message to invokes a business process - we all heard of SOAP
            >> intermediaries, Grand Central actually uses them!). When the response is
            >> returned, it is held by Grand Central, and the user then polls for it,
            >> much like you poll a POP3 mail server for email.
            >>
            >> Grand Central is free as long as your bandwidth is less than 25MB per
            >> month. And you have me as an excellent support resource. I have made
            >> sure
            >> there are lots of Perl/SOAP::Lite examples on the GC developer site. :)
            >>
            >> http://www.grandcentral.com/developers/
            >>
            >>
            >>>I have been trying to do something similar - in my case I want the end
            >>>user (thru a GUI) to be able to cancel the SOAP call - or at least
            >>>ignore what the call returns... I think the issue is that since
            >>>SOAP::Lite is using LWP to perform the HTTP communication, the process
            >>>waits until a return or timeout. Perhaps there is a way to configure
            >>>this??? I am experiementing with Perl 5.8.2 and using a separate
            >>>thread to make the SOAP call. I have also seen ways to spawn another
            >>>process to make the call so the main process is not stuck waiting
            >>>around - for Win32 there is a good example in the O'reilly Programming
            >>>Perl/Tk Book that goes out and gets comics and displays them back in
            >>>the TK UI - this does not use SOAP, but does use LWP and the concepts
            >>>work the same...
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
            >>>
            >>>To visit your group on the web, go
            >>>to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/soaplite/
            >>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
            >>>to:soaplite-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> ^byrne :/
            >>
            >
            >


            ^byrne :/
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