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Re: [soaplite] Re: How to handle big soap attachments ?

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  • Paul Kulchenko
    Hi, Sebastian! It might, thanks for the tip. Won t make any promisses, but definitely will take a look. Next version is about to be released, and I don t think
    Message 1 of 13 , Mar 21, 2001
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      Hi, Sebastian!

      It might, thanks for the tip. Won't make any promisses, but
      definitely will take a look. Next version is about to be released,
      and I don't think will include any changes in this aspect (unless
      they are minimal, that is possible also), but I'll try to do it ASAP.
      Thank you.

      Best wishes, Paul.

      --- sebaklu@... wrote:
      > Hi, Paul!
      >
      > Thanx for the answer.
      >
      > In fact the memory usage in the CGI package (SOAP::Transport::HTTP)
      >
      > is a problem for handling big SOAP requests because the complete
      > content is kept more than one times in the memory.
      >
      > extract from package SOAP::Transport::HTTP::CGI
      > located in SOAP/Transport/HTTP.pm:
      >
      > my $content; read(STDIN,$content,$ENV{'CONTENT_LENGTH'} || 0);
      > # ^^^^^^^^--- first time
      >
      > $self->request(HTTP::Request->new(
      > $ENV{'REQUEST_METHOD'} || '' => $ENV{'SCRIPT_NAME'},
      > HTTP::Headers->new(map {(/^HTTP_(.+)/i ? $1 : $_) => $ENV{$_}}
      > keys %ENV),
      > $content,
      > # ^^^^^^^^- second time
      > ));
      >
      > Will future version support stream-based handling directly from
      > STDIN?
      >
      > --- In soaplite@y..., Paul Kulchenko <paulclinger@y...> wrote:
      > > Hi, Sebastian!
      > >
      > > Yes, you may specify option for MIME::Parser to keep temporary
      > file
      > > on disk during parsing, but presence it in memory will be
      > required
      > > later to parse the message, though it shouldn't take 200MB to
      > parse
      > > it. As soon as it's one part you should be fine. Anyway, there is
      >
      > not
      > > much you can change (except options for MIME::Parser) and I'll do
      > my
      > > tests to check it.
      > >
      > > Best wishes, Paul.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > __________________________________________________
      > > Do You Yahoo!?
      > > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
      > > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
      >
      >
      > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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      >
      >
      >
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      >
      >


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    • allierogers@yahoo.com
      Paul, I have seen a similar problem with ALL SOAP (and XML-RPC) implementations. That is that they do not handle streams at all. Every implementation (that I
      Message 2 of 13 , Mar 21, 2001
      • 0 Attachment
        Paul,

        I have seen a similar problem with ALL SOAP (and XML-RPC)
        implementations. That is that they do not handle streams at all.
        Every implementation (that I know of) loads the entire HTTP
        request/response into memory (bad idea, what if it's a MPEG movie or
        something), parses it into an in-memory tree, and then hands it off
        for proper dispatch.

        Why do implementations assume that all methods accept 2 simple
        arguments and return 1 simple argument like all of the examples (for
        instance, "getQuote")? The real world is not like that.

        In the real world, there may be many complicated arguments (like a
        file upload) and the response may also be arbitrarily large (e.g., a
        SQL result set of 100,000 rows).

        HTTP, SOAP, XML-RPC and XML can handle this fine, if the
        implementations were a bit smarter.

        - Parse using SAX or stream parsers, only (never DOM), and always
        parse "on the fly" without loading entire stream into RAM.

        - Always stream to/from HTTP, rather than loading entire
        request/response into RAM.

        Since HTTP is the most transport, do what good HTTP servers do. When
        you browse to a site with streaming video, do you think the HTTP
        server loads the entire video file into RAM for each request? Of
        course not. It streams it off disk (or cache) directly back to the
        client, chunk by chunk, so that only a small amount of a large file
        is ever in memory at once. In that way, the HTTP server can handle
        100,000 simulatenous hits to that same streaming video.

        Am I wrong about this?

        Regards,

        Allie Rogers

        --- In soaplite@y..., Paul Kulchenko <paulclinger@y...> wrote:
        > Hi, Sebastian!
        >
        > It might, thanks for the tip. Won't make any promisses, but
        > definitely will take a look. Next version is about to be released,
        > and I don't think will include any changes in this aspect (unless
        > they are minimal, that is possible also), but I'll try to do it
        ASAP.
        > Thank you.
        >
        > Best wishes, Paul.
        >
        > --- sebaklu@y... wrote:
        > > Hi, Paul!
        > >
        > > Thanx for the answer.
        > >
        > > In fact the memory usage in the CGI package
        (SOAP::Transport::HTTP)
        > >
        > > is a problem for handling big SOAP requests because the complete
        > > content is kept more than one times in the memory.
        > >
        > > extract from package SOAP::Transport::HTTP::CGI
        > > located in SOAP/Transport/HTTP.pm:
        > >
        > > my $content; read(STDIN,$content,$ENV{'CONTENT_LENGTH'} || 0);
        > > # ^^^^^^^^--- first time
        > >
        > > $self->request(HTTP::Request->new(
        > > $ENV{'REQUEST_METHOD'} || '' => $ENV{'SCRIPT_NAME'},
        > > HTTP::Headers->new(map {(/^HTTP_(.+)/i ? $1 : $_) => $ENV
        {$_}}
        > > keys %ENV),
        > > $content,
        > > # ^^^^^^^^- second time
        > > ));
        > >
        > > Will future version support stream-based handling directly from
        > > STDIN?
        > >
        > > --- In soaplite@y..., Paul Kulchenko <paulclinger@y...> wrote:
        > > > Hi, Sebastian!
        > > >
        > > > Yes, you may specify option for MIME::Parser to keep temporary
        > > file
        > > > on disk during parsing, but presence it in memory will be
        > > required
        > > > later to parse the message, though it shouldn't take 200MB to
        > > parse
        > > > it. As soon as it's one part you should be fine. Anyway, there
        is
        > >
        > > not
        > > > much you can change (except options for MIME::Parser) and I'll
        do
        > > my
        > > > tests to check it.
        > > >
        > > > Best wishes, Paul.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > __________________________________________________
        > > > Do You Yahoo!?
        > > > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
        > > > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
        > >
        > >
        > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        > >
        > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > > soaplite-unsubscribe@y...
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > __________________________________________________
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        > Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
        > http://auctions.yahoo.com/
      • Paul Kulchenko
        Hi, Allie! Definitely you re right and that s exactly what I want to do. Some but s: first, there could be MIME encoded message that is parsed differently, and
        Message 3 of 13 , Mar 21, 2001
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          Hi, Allie!

          Definitely you're right and that's exactly what I want to do. Some
          but's: first, there could be MIME encoded message that is parsed
          differently, and so relationships between
          Transport-Parser-SOAP-You_module becomes little bit more complicated.
          Second, anyway your module should get parameters somehow and there is
          no way to give it to you without finishing parsing first. Third, I
          cannot dispatch message to you wihout finishing parsing, because XML
          could be wrong, unfinished, etc., so again, I need to finish parsing.
          I soon as I finished parsing I need to keep data somewhere. I'm using
          SAX parser, but RESULT of parsing is stored in memory similar to DOM
          structure ("similar" regarding to consumed memory), and I don't know
          HOW I can avoid it. All that you can save is the memory currently
          used for storing message BEFORE parsing, and it'll work only for
          streaming transports (CGI/STDIO/TCP?) and doesn't work for others
          anyway.

          At the same time it worth doing it, but I was thinking about
          different approach. Keep in memory ONLY XML message, navigate through
          it with quick XPATH component, and provide parameters as tied
          variables, so as soon as you want to get it it'll be founded in
          message and returned to you. memory vs. speed. It'll also make
          implementation significantly more complicated.

          I did some benchmarking recently and if take XML::Parser as 1, then
          XML::Parser with tree style will parse the same message 5 times
          slower and my implementation works about 7-8 time slower, just
          because of memory manipulations. I don't think that it could be
          significantly improved.

          Any other ideas?

          Best wishes, Paul.

          --- allierogers@... wrote:
          > Paul,
          >
          > I have seen a similar problem with ALL SOAP (and XML-RPC)
          > implementations. That is that they do not handle streams at all.
          > Every implementation (that I know of) loads the entire HTTP
          > request/response into memory (bad idea, what if it's a MPEG movie
          > or
          > something), parses it into an in-memory tree, and then hands it off
          >
          > for proper dispatch.
          >
          > Why do implementations assume that all methods accept 2 simple
          > arguments and return 1 simple argument like all of the examples
          > (for
          > instance, "getQuote")? The real world is not like that.
          >
          > In the real world, there may be many complicated arguments (like a
          > file upload) and the response may also be arbitrarily large (e.g.,
          > a
          > SQL result set of 100,000 rows).
          >
          > HTTP, SOAP, XML-RPC and XML can handle this fine, if the
          > implementations were a bit smarter.
          >
          > - Parse using SAX or stream parsers, only (never DOM), and always
          > parse "on the fly" without loading entire stream into RAM.
          >
          > - Always stream to/from HTTP, rather than loading entire
          > request/response into RAM.
          >
          > Since HTTP is the most transport, do what good HTTP servers do.
          > When
          > you browse to a site with streaming video, do you think the HTTP
          > server loads the entire video file into RAM for each request? Of
          > course not. It streams it off disk (or cache) directly back to the
          >
          > client, chunk by chunk, so that only a small amount of a large file
          >
          > is ever in memory at once. In that way, the HTTP server can handle
          >
          > 100,000 simulatenous hits to that same streaming video.
          >
          > Am I wrong about this?
          >
          > Regards,
          >
          > Allie Rogers
          >
          > --- In soaplite@y..., Paul Kulchenko <paulclinger@y...> wrote:
          > > Hi, Sebastian!
          > >
          > > It might, thanks for the tip. Won't make any promisses, but
          > > definitely will take a look. Next version is about to be
          > released,
          > > and I don't think will include any changes in this aspect (unless
          > > they are minimal, that is possible also), but I'll try to do it
          > ASAP.
          > > Thank you.
          > >
          > > Best wishes, Paul.
          > >
          > > --- sebaklu@y... wrote:
          > > > Hi, Paul!
          > > >
          > > > Thanx for the answer.
          > > >
          > > > In fact the memory usage in the CGI package
          > (SOAP::Transport::HTTP)
          > > >
          > > > is a problem for handling big SOAP requests because the
          > complete
          > > > content is kept more than one times in the memory.
          > > >
          > > > extract from package SOAP::Transport::HTTP::CGI
          > > > located in SOAP/Transport/HTTP.pm:
          > > >
          > > > my $content; read(STDIN,$content,$ENV{'CONTENT_LENGTH'} ||
          > 0);
          > > > # ^^^^^^^^--- first time
          > > >
          > > > $self->request(HTTP::Request->new(
          > > > $ENV{'REQUEST_METHOD'} || '' => $ENV{'SCRIPT_NAME'},
          > > > HTTP::Headers->new(map {(/^HTTP_(.+)/i ? $1 : $_) => $ENV
          > {$_}}
          > > > keys %ENV),
          > > > $content,
          > > > # ^^^^^^^^- second time
          > > > ));
          > > >
          > > > Will future version support stream-based handling directly from
          > > > STDIN?
          > > >
          > > > --- In soaplite@y..., Paul Kulchenko <paulclinger@y...> wrote:
          > > > > Hi, Sebastian!
          > > > >
          > > > > Yes, you may specify option for MIME::Parser to keep
          > temporary
          > > > file
          > > > > on disk during parsing, but presence it in memory will be
          > > > required
          > > > > later to parse the message, though it shouldn't take 200MB to
          > > > parse
          > > > > it. As soon as it's one part you should be fine. Anyway,
          > there
          > is
          > > >
          > > > not
          > > > > much you can change (except options for MIME::Parser) and
          > I'll
          > do
          > > > my
          > > > > tests to check it.
          > > > >
          > > > > Best wishes, Paul.
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > __________________________________________________
          > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
          > > > > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
          > > > > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          > > >
          > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > > soaplite-unsubscribe@y...
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > > __________________________________________________
          > > Do You Yahoo!?
          > > Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
          > > http://auctions.yahoo.com/
          >
          >
          > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > soaplite-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >


          __________________________________________________
          Do You Yahoo!?
          Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
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        • Petr Janata
          Hello, I would just like to remark that we had Don Box last week in Prague giving a SOAP talk and he said that SOAP is meant to work exactly like this, i.e.
          Message 4 of 13 , Mar 21, 2001
          • 0 Attachment
            Hello,

            I would just like to remark that we had Don Box last week in Prague giving a
            SOAP talk and he said that SOAP is meant to work exactly like this, i.e.
            not to handle large amounts of data. He also said that if you need to do
            that you can e.g. pass just the URL in a SOAP message and use simple
            download (or SAX parser ) to handle the transfer.

            Petr Janata

            -----Original Message-----
            From: sentto-2738395-120-985195300-petr.janata=i.cz@...
            [mailto:sentto-2738395-120-985195300-petr.janata=i.cz@...]On
            Behalf Of allierogers@...
            Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 6:22 PM
            To: soaplite@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [soaplite] Re: How to handle big soap attachments ?


            Paul,

            I have seen a similar problem with ALL SOAP (and XML-RPC)
            implementations. That is that they do not handle streams at all.
            Every implementation (that I know of) loads the entire HTTP
            request/response into memory (bad idea, what if it's a MPEG movie or
            something), parses it into an in-memory tree, and then hands it off
            for proper dispatch.

            Why do implementations assume that all methods accept 2 simple
            arguments and return 1 simple argument like all of the examples (for
            instance, "getQuote")? The real world is not like that.

            In the real world, there may be many complicated arguments (like a
            file upload) and the response may also be arbitrarily large (e.g., a
            SQL result set of 100,000 rows).

            HTTP, SOAP, XML-RPC and XML can handle this fine, if the
            implementations were a bit smarter.

            - Parse using SAX or stream parsers, only (never DOM), and always
            parse "on the fly" without loading entire stream into RAM.

            - Always stream to/from HTTP, rather than loading entire
            request/response into RAM.

            Since HTTP is the most transport, do what good HTTP servers do. When
            you browse to a site with streaming video, do you think the HTTP
            server loads the entire video file into RAM for each request? Of
            course not. It streams it off disk (or cache) directly back to the
            client, chunk by chunk, so that only a small amount of a large file
            is ever in memory at once. In that way, the HTTP server can handle
            100,000 simulatenous hits to that same streaming video.

            Am I wrong about this?

            Regards,

            Allie Rogers

            --- In soaplite@y..., Paul Kulchenko <paulclinger@y...> wrote:
            > Hi, Sebastian!
            >
            > It might, thanks for the tip. Won't make any promisses, but
            > definitely will take a look. Next version is about to be released,
            > and I don't think will include any changes in this aspect (unless
            > they are minimal, that is possible also), but I'll try to do it
            ASAP.
            > Thank you.
            >
            > Best wishes, Paul.
            >
            > --- sebaklu@y... wrote:
            > > Hi, Paul!
            > >
            > > Thanx for the answer.
            > >
            > > In fact the memory usage in the CGI package
            (SOAP::Transport::HTTP)
            > >
            > > is a problem for handling big SOAP requests because the complete
            > > content is kept more than one times in the memory.
            > >
            > > extract from package SOAP::Transport::HTTP::CGI
            > > located in SOAP/Transport/HTTP.pm:
            > >
            > > my $content; read(STDIN,$content,$ENV{'CONTENT_LENGTH'} || 0);
            > > # ^^^^^^^^--- first time
            > >
            > > $self->request(HTTP::Request->new(
            > > $ENV{'REQUEST_METHOD'} || '' => $ENV{'SCRIPT_NAME'},
            > > HTTP::Headers->new(map {(/^HTTP_(.+)/i ? $1 : $_) => $ENV
            {$_}}
            > > keys %ENV),
            > > $content,
            > > # ^^^^^^^^- second time
            > > ));
            > >
            > > Will future version support stream-based handling directly from
            > > STDIN?
            > >
            > > --- In soaplite@y..., Paul Kulchenko <paulclinger@y...> wrote:
            > > > Hi, Sebastian!
            > > >
            > > > Yes, you may specify option for MIME::Parser to keep temporary
            > > file
            > > > on disk during parsing, but presence it in memory will be
            > > required
            > > > later to parse the message, though it shouldn't take 200MB to
            > > parse
            > > > it. As soon as it's one part you should be fine. Anyway, there
            is
            > >
            > > not
            > > > much you can change (except options for MIME::Parser) and I'll
            do
            > > my
            > > > tests to check it.
            > > >
            > > > Best wishes, Paul.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > __________________________________________________
            > > > Do You Yahoo!?
            > > > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
            > > > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            > >
            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > soaplite-unsubscribe@y...
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            > __________________________________________________
            > Do You Yahoo!?
            > Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
            > http://auctions.yahoo.com/



            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            soaplite-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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          • sebaklu@yahoo.com
            Hi Petr. Since there exists a specification for soap messages with attachements it should be possible to send the entire data according to the request at once.
            Message 5 of 13 , Mar 22, 2001
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Petr.

              Since there exists a specification for soap messages with
              attachements it should be possible to send the entire data according
              to the request at once. Why make it complicated with more requests ?
              My problem is that the client could send only data via HTTP and the
              server can receive it only via HTTP. The server themself can't send
              any request for requiered data to the client. Firewalls and security
              rules on both sides make other requests eg. via URLs or FTP
              impossible .
              I think SOAP is a good solution for this problem.


              Sebastian

              --- In soaplite@y..., "Petr Janata" <petr.janata@i...> wrote:
              > Hello,
              >
              > I would just like to remark that we had Don Box last week in Prague
              giving a
              > SOAP talk and he said that SOAP is meant to work exactly like
              this, i.e.
              > not to handle large amounts of data. He also said that if you need
              to do
              > that you can e.g. pass just the URL in a SOAP message and use simple
              > download (or SAX parser ) to handle the transfer.
              >
              > Petr Janata
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: sentto-2738395-120-985195300-petr.janata=i.cz@r...
              > [mailto:sentto-2738395-120-985195300-petr.janata=i.cz@r...]On
              > Behalf Of allierogers@y...
              > Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 6:22 PM
              > To: soaplite@y...
              > Subject: [soaplite] Re: How to handle big soap attachments ?
              >
              >
              > Paul,
              >
              > I have seen a similar problem with ALL SOAP (and XML-RPC)
              > implementations. That is that they do not handle streams at all.
              > Every implementation (that I know of) loads the entire HTTP
              > request/response into memory (bad idea, what if it's a MPEG movie or
              > something), parses it into an in-memory tree, and then hands it off
              > for proper dispatch.
              >
              > Why do implementations assume that all methods accept 2 simple
              > arguments and return 1 simple argument like all of the examples (for
              > instance, "getQuote")? The real world is not like that.
              >
              > In the real world, there may be many complicated arguments (like a
              > file upload) and the response may also be arbitrarily large (e.g., a
              > SQL result set of 100,000 rows).
              >
              > HTTP, SOAP, XML-RPC and XML can handle this fine, if the
              > implementations were a bit smarter.
              >
              > - Parse using SAX or stream parsers, only (never DOM), and always
              > parse "on the fly" without loading entire stream into RAM.
              >
              > - Always stream to/from HTTP, rather than loading entire
              > request/response into RAM.
              >
              > Since HTTP is the most transport, do what good HTTP servers do.
              When
              > you browse to a site with streaming video, do you think the HTTP
              > server loads the entire video file into RAM for each request? Of
              > course not. It streams it off disk (or cache) directly back to the
              > client, chunk by chunk, so that only a small amount of a large file
              > is ever in memory at once. In that way, the HTTP server can handle
              > 100,000 simulatenous hits to that same streaming video.
              >
              > Am I wrong about this?
              >
              > Regards,
              >
              > Allie Rogers
              >
              > --- In soaplite@y..., Paul Kulchenko <paulclinger@y...> wrote:
              > > Hi, Sebastian!
              > >
              > > It might, thanks for the tip. Won't make any promisses, but
              > > definitely will take a look. Next version is about to be released,
              > > and I don't think will include any changes in this aspect (unless
              > > they are minimal, that is possible also), but I'll try to do it
              > ASAP.
              > > Thank you.
              > >
              > > Best wishes, Paul.
              > >
              > > --- sebaklu@y... wrote:
              > > > Hi, Paul!
              > > >
              > > > Thanx for the answer.
              > > >
              > > > In fact the memory usage in the CGI package
              > (SOAP::Transport::HTTP)
              > > >
              > > > is a problem for handling big SOAP requests because the complete
              > > > content is kept more than one times in the memory.
              > > >
              > > > extract from package SOAP::Transport::HTTP::CGI
              > > > located in SOAP/Transport/HTTP.pm:
              > > >
              > > > my $content; read(STDIN,$content,$ENV{'CONTENT_LENGTH'} || 0);
              > > > # ^^^^^^^^--- first time
              > > >
              > > > $self->request(HTTP::Request->new(
              > > > $ENV{'REQUEST_METHOD'} || '' => $ENV{'SCRIPT_NAME'},
              > > > HTTP::Headers->new(map {(/^HTTP_(.+)/i ? $1 : $_) => $ENV
              > {$_}}
              > > > keys %ENV),
              > > > $content,
              > > > # ^^^^^^^^- second time
              > > > ));
              > > >
              > > > Will future version support stream-based handling directly from
              > > > STDIN?
              > > >
              > > > --- In soaplite@y..., Paul Kulchenko <paulclinger@y...> wrote:
              > > > > Hi, Sebastian!
              > > > >
              > > > > Yes, you may specify option for MIME::Parser to keep temporary
              > > > file
              > > > > on disk during parsing, but presence it in memory will be
              > > > required
              > > > > later to parse the message, though it shouldn't take 200MB to
              > > > parse
              > > > > it. As soon as it's one part you should be fine. Anyway, there
              > is
              > > >
              > > > not
              > > > > much you can change (except options for MIME::Parser) and I'll
              > do
              > > > my
              > > > > tests to check it.
              > > > >
              > > > > Best wishes, Paul.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > __________________________________________________
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            • Paul Kulchenko
              Hi, Sebastian! That s true, but at the same time it s easy to imagine situation when you send something not directly, but thru the several different
              Message 6 of 13 , Mar 22, 2001
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                Hi, Sebastian!

                That's true, but at the same time it's easy to imagine situation when
                you send something not directly, but thru the several different
                intermediaries and each of them will need to handle this huge
                request. If this piece is encoded as external reference then handler
                could be smart enough to get it only if it's required (yet I don't
                know about such smart handlers :)). Ideas, ideas...

                Ideally implementation should be flexible enough to handle both (and
                maybe man others) approaches, maybe with manual hints.

                Best wishes, Paul.

                --- sebaklu@... wrote:
                > Hi Petr.
                >
                > Since there exists a specification for soap messages with
                > attachements it should be possible to send the entire data
                > according
                > to the request at once. Why make it complicated with more requests
                > ?
                > My problem is that the client could send only data via HTTP and the
                >
                > server can receive it only via HTTP. The server themself can't send
                >
                > any request for requiered data to the client. Firewalls and
                > security
                > rules on both sides make other requests eg. via URLs or FTP
                > impossible .
                > I think SOAP is a good solution for this problem.
                >
                >
                > Sebastian
                >
                > --- In soaplite@y..., "Petr Janata" <petr.janata@i...> wrote:
                > > Hello,
                > >
                > > I would just like to remark that we had Don Box last week in
                > Prague
                > giving a
                > > SOAP talk and he said that SOAP is meant to work exactly like
                > this, i.e.
                > > not to handle large amounts of data. He also said that if you
                > need
                > to do
                > > that you can e.g. pass just the URL in a SOAP message and use
                > simple
                > > download (or SAX parser ) to handle the transfer.
                > >
                > > Petr Janata
                > >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: sentto-2738395-120-985195300-petr.janata=i.cz@r...
                > > [mailto:sentto-2738395-120-985195300-petr.janata=i.cz@r...]On
                > > Behalf Of allierogers@y...
                > > Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 6:22 PM
                > > To: soaplite@y...
                > > Subject: [soaplite] Re: How to handle big soap attachments ?
                > >
                > >
                > > Paul,
                > >
                > > I have seen a similar problem with ALL SOAP (and XML-RPC)
                > > implementations. That is that they do not handle streams at all.
                > > Every implementation (that I know of) loads the entire HTTP
                > > request/response into memory (bad idea, what if it's a MPEG movie
                > or
                > > something), parses it into an in-memory tree, and then hands it
                > off
                > > for proper dispatch.
                > >
                > > Why do implementations assume that all methods accept 2 simple
                > > arguments and return 1 simple argument like all of the examples
                > (for
                > > instance, "getQuote")? The real world is not like that.
                > >
                > > In the real world, there may be many complicated arguments (like
                > a
                > > file upload) and the response may also be arbitrarily large
                > (e.g., a
                > > SQL result set of 100,000 rows).
                > >
                > > HTTP, SOAP, XML-RPC and XML can handle this fine, if the
                > > implementations were a bit smarter.
                > >
                > > - Parse using SAX or stream parsers, only (never DOM), and always
                > > parse "on the fly" without loading entire stream into RAM.
                > >
                > > - Always stream to/from HTTP, rather than loading entire
                > > request/response into RAM.
                > >
                > > Since HTTP is the most transport, do what good HTTP servers do.
                > When
                > > you browse to a site with streaming video, do you think the HTTP
                > > server loads the entire video file into RAM for each request? Of
                > > course not. It streams it off disk (or cache) directly back to
                > the
                > > client, chunk by chunk, so that only a small amount of a large
                > file
                > > is ever in memory at once. In that way, the HTTP server can
                > handle
                > > 100,000 simulatenous hits to that same streaming video.
                > >
                > > Am I wrong about this?
                > >
                > > Regards,
                > >
                > > Allie Rogers
                > >
                > > --- In soaplite@y..., Paul Kulchenko <paulclinger@y...> wrote:
                > > > Hi, Sebastian!
                > > >
                > > > It might, thanks for the tip. Won't make any promisses, but
                > > > definitely will take a look. Next version is about to be
                > released,
                > > > and I don't think will include any changes in this aspect
                > (unless
                > > > they are minimal, that is possible also), but I'll try to do it
                > > ASAP.
                > > > Thank you.
                > > >
                > > > Best wishes, Paul.
                > > >
                > > > --- sebaklu@y... wrote:
                > > > > Hi, Paul!
                > > > >
                > > > > Thanx for the answer.
                > > > >
                > > > > In fact the memory usage in the CGI package
                > > (SOAP::Transport::HTTP)
                > > > >
                > > > > is a problem for handling big SOAP requests because the
                > complete
                > > > > content is kept more than one times in the memory.
                > > > >
                > > > > extract from package SOAP::Transport::HTTP::CGI
                > > > > located in SOAP/Transport/HTTP.pm:
                > > > >
                > > > > my $content; read(STDIN,$content,$ENV{'CONTENT_LENGTH'} ||
                > 0);
                > > > > # ^^^^^^^^--- first time
                > > > >
                > > > > $self->request(HTTP::Request->new(
                > > > > $ENV{'REQUEST_METHOD'} || '' => $ENV{'SCRIPT_NAME'},
                > > > > HTTP::Headers->new(map {(/^HTTP_(.+)/i ? $1 : $_) => $ENV
                > > {$_}}
                > > > > keys %ENV),
                > > > > $content,
                > > > > # ^^^^^^^^- second time
                > > > > ));
                > > > >
                > > > > Will future version support stream-based handling directly
                > from
                > > > > STDIN?
                > > > >
                > > > > --- In soaplite@y..., Paul Kulchenko <paulclinger@y...>
                > wrote:
                > > > > > Hi, Sebastian!
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Yes, you may specify option for MIME::Parser to keep
                > temporary
                > > > > file
                > > > > > on disk during parsing, but presence it in memory will be
                > > > > required
                > > > > > later to parse the message, though it shouldn't take 200MB
                > to
                > > > > parse
                > > > > > it. As soon as it's one part you should be fine. Anyway,
                > there
                > > is
                > > > >
                > > > > not
                > > > > > much you can change (except options for MIME::Parser) and
                > I'll
                > > do
                > > > > my
                > > > > > tests to check it.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Best wishes, Paul.
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > __________________________________________________
                > > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
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                === message truncated ===


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              • allierogers@yahoo.com
                Paul, You make many good points, and I see the issues. Maybe we need to decompose the problem into smaller spaces. As I see it, there are 2 basic issues
                Message 7 of 13 , Mar 22, 2001
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                  Paul,

                  You make many good points, and I see the issues. Maybe we need to
                  decompose the problem into smaller spaces. As I see it, there are 2
                  basic issues related to large SOAP RPC calls:

                  1. SOAP request where arguments are large

                  2. SOAP response where method result is large

                  I thought the proper way to handle number 1 was to use the HTTP file
                  upload capability where the SOAP argument references the data in the
                  HTTP upload or via URL somehow. Maybe I am wrong about this because
                  my particular implementations never make use of this feature. I
                  realize this is an HTTP-centric approach, but the scalability issues
                  really revolve around HTTP implementations and not so much in SMTP
                  and FTP where disk rather than RAM storage is the default and
                  dispatch and execution threads are not as memory sensitive as HTTP
                  (for instance, an SMTP server is only handling one message at a time
                  while an HTTP server may be handling 100,000 requests at once).

                  For me, number 2 is more important. In this case, the method call is
                  simple and its data is relatively small, so how you parse and handle
                  the request on the server side is fine as it is. However, the
                  response should be streamed in all cases. There is no issue of XML
                  parsing on the server side in this case. But, the server should
                  assume that the method return could be arbitrarily large, so it
                  should not attempt to receive the entire method return before it
                  starts passing it back to the client. The server should start, right
                  away, streaming back the SOAP envelope, unbuffered, or at least allow
                  this as a setting. For SOAP::Lite, you have the problem that you are
                  dynamically trying to figure out what types are in the method
                  response, rather than through static definition (e.g., a
                  configuration file on the server to map method name, namespace, uri,
                  arugments, return types, etc.). Without a static configuration,
                  there is no way to stream as I would like. Maybe it could be a
                  performance option?

                  This is how we have solved the problem, here, both for SOAP and XML-
                  RPC. However, we use SOAP::Lite servers only for some prototyping.
                  In other cases, we have COM-based SOAP/XML-RPC servers (e.g., 4s4c
                  from pocketsoap.com) and IIS configured for unbuffered response.

                  Regards,

                  Allie
                • allierogers@yahoo.com
                  Petr, I know Don is an important figure, but I disagree with him. SOAP can be used for large data, just as all HTTP servers today handle large data. We use
                  Message 8 of 13 , Mar 22, 2001
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                    Petr,

                    I know Don is an important figure, but I disagree with him. SOAP can
                    be used for large data, just as all HTTP servers today handle large
                    data. We use it for this purpose here in all of our products and it
                    works well. Maybe he did not intend this use of SOAP, but it does
                    work. However, SOAP::Lite, currently, can not be used in this way.
                    Perhaps that may change.

                    Allie

                    --- In soaplite@y..., "Petr Janata" <petr.janata@i...> wrote:
                    > Hello,
                    >
                    > I would just like to remark that we had Don Box last week in Prague
                    giving a
                    > SOAP talk and he said that SOAP is meant to work exactly like
                    this, i.e.
                    > not to handle large amounts of data. He also said that if you need
                    to do
                    > that you can e.g. pass just the URL in a SOAP message and use simple
                    > download (or SAX parser ) to handle the transfer.
                    >
                    > Petr Janata
                  • sebaklu@yahoo.com
                    Hi Paul, That s right, but the current version of SOAP::Lite should never expect large requests. The server will give no response and fill out the complete
                    Message 9 of 13 , Mar 22, 2001
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                      Hi Paul,

                      That's right, but the current version of SOAP::Lite should never
                      expect large requests. The server will give no response and fill out
                      the complete memory on the machine. Since it expect SOAP messages
                      with attachements it should be able to handle large amount of data.

                      However, it works fine with simple requests. But general for
                      handling SOAP messages with attachments (the 7 MB attachment was an
                      example, i had also problems to handle smaller attachments) should
                      use stream mechanism. If not you should not read it into memory but
                      reject the request. Maybe i'm wrong but it is a weak point and DOS
                      attacks may use it.


                      Sebastian

                      --- In soaplite@y..., Paul Kulchenko <paulclinger@y...> wrote:
                      > Hi, Sebastian!
                      >
                      > That's true, but at the same time it's easy to imagine situation
                      when
                      > you send something not directly, but thru the several different
                      > intermediaries and each of them will need to handle this huge
                      > request. If this piece is encoded as external reference then handler
                      > could be smart enough to get it only if it's required (yet I don't
                      > know about such smart handlers :)). Ideas, ideas...
                      >
                      > Ideally implementation should be flexible enough to handle both (and
                      > maybe man others) approaches, maybe with manual hints.
                      >
                      > Best wishes, Paul.
                    • Paul Kulchenko
                      Hi, Sebastian! Absolutely agree. That s the reason why I want to introduce some additional transport options, like ACCEPTABLE_CONTENT_TYPE (if you want to
                      Message 10 of 13 , Mar 22, 2001
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                        Hi, Sebastian!

                        Absolutely agree. That's the reason why I want to introduce some
                        additional transport options, like ACCEPTABLE_CONTENT_TYPE (if you
                        want to accept ONLY text/xml or multipart/related) and
                        MAX_CONTENT_SIZE that should take care about it and request will be
                        rejected. As for DOS attack it could be introduced even with small
                        request which has complex XML structure. Anyway, these options should
                        make server side more robust.

                        Best wishes, Paul.

                        --- sebaklu@... wrote:
                        > Hi Paul,
                        >
                        > That's right, but the current version of SOAP::Lite should never
                        > expect large requests. The server will give no response and fill
                        > out
                        > the complete memory on the machine. Since it expect SOAP messages
                        > with attachements it should be able to handle large amount of data.
                        >
                        > However, it works fine with simple requests. But general for
                        > handling SOAP messages with attachments (the 7 MB attachment was
                        > an
                        > example, i had also problems to handle smaller attachments) should
                        > use stream mechanism. If not you should not read it into memory but
                        >
                        > reject the request. Maybe i'm wrong but it is a weak point and DOS
                        > attacks may use it.
                        >
                        >
                        > Sebastian
                        >
                        > --- In soaplite@y..., Paul Kulchenko <paulclinger@y...> wrote:
                        > > Hi, Sebastian!
                        > >
                        > > That's true, but at the same time it's easy to imagine situation
                        > when
                        > > you send something not directly, but thru the several different
                        > > intermediaries and each of them will need to handle this huge
                        > > request. If this piece is encoded as external reference then
                        > handler
                        > > could be smart enough to get it only if it's required (yet I
                        > don't
                        > > know about such smart handlers :)). Ideas, ideas...
                        > >
                        > > Ideally implementation should be flexible enough to handle both
                        > (and
                        > > maybe man others) approaches, maybe with manual hints.
                        > >
                        > > Best wishes, Paul.
                        >
                        >
                        >
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