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Re: [soapbuilders] Schema question

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  • Robert van Engelen
    Thanks! It is easy to overlook this kind of information in these long specs. One more question though: is the following legal?
    Message 1 of 23 , Apr 3, 2002
      Thanks!

      It is easy to overlook this kind of information in these long specs.

      One more question though: is the following legal?

      <complexType name="baseAddress">
      <sequence>
      <element name="city" type="xsd:string"/>
      <element name="zip" type="xsd:string"/>
      <element name="country" type="xsd:string"/>
      </sequence>
      </complexType>

      <complexType name="address">
      <complexContent>
      <extension base="tns:baseAddress">
      <sequence>
      <element name="zip" type="xsd:integer"/>
      </sequence>
      </extension>
      </complexContent>
      </complexType>

      If this is legal, is the resulting XML allowed to carry two zip elements or
      only one?

      I am asking this because:

      1. gSOAP supports single inheritance. When communicating derived class
      instances over SOAP also the base class members need to be present in the
      SOAP message (just like any OO implementation keeps base class information
      in the derived class instances).

      2. The problem is that if schemas/WSDL disallows the above then SOAP is not
      suitable for OO! (or maybe it need to be accomplished with some tricks).

      - Robert
    • Wes Moulder
      Robert, I believe it would have to be a restriction, not an extension, since you re changing the behaviour of zip, and even then, I don t think you re allowed
      Message 2 of 23 , Apr 3, 2002

        Robert,

        I believe it would have to be a restriction, not an extension, since you’re changing the behaviour of zip, and even then, I don’t think you’re allowed to completely alter the type of data, just restrict its possibilities.

         

        This is all from a vague understanding of xmlschema-1/ section 3.9.6, though.

        The multiple zip problem is still in effect, though; thus you wouldn’t have two zip entries.

         

        For better understanding of where I’m coming from, take it as if zip were defined as ur-type, and string.

        Now, send in two normalized strings.  Which zip maps to which field? <sequence> would say it’s order dependant, right? 

        Where do parent elements go in terms of extension?

         

        You might also look in xmlschema-1 section 2.2.1, where it talks about DataTypes.

         

        As far as OO goes, I don’t think you can take an object that contains a String, and replace it with an int, and have any assumptions still hold up.

        Take this for an example:

         

        Address{

          String zip;

          String city;

          String country;

        }

         

        and

        USAddress :: Address {

          Int zip;

        }

         

        if I set the int on USAddress, and pass it into a function that looks for an Address, the String would be empty/null, which isn’t what you’re after.

         

        --Wes

         

         

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Robert van Engelen [mailto:engelen@...]
        Sent:
        Wednesday, April 03, 2002 12:27 PM
        To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] Schema question

         


        Thanks!

        It is easy to overlook this kind of information in these long specs.

        One more question though: is the following legal?

        <complexType name="baseAddress">
          <sequence>
            <element name="city" type="xsd:string"/>
            <element name="zip" type="xsd:string"/>
            <element name="country" type="xsd:string"/>
          </sequence>
        </complexType>

        <complexType name="address">
          <complexContent>
            <extension base="tns:baseAddress">
              <sequence>
                <element name="zip" type="xsd:integer"/>
              </sequence>
            </extension>
          </complexContent>
        </complexType>

        If this is legal, is the resulting XML allowed to carry two zip elements or
        only one?

        I am asking this because:

        1. gSOAP supports single inheritance. When communicating derived class
        instances over SOAP also the base class members need to be present in the
        SOAP message (just like any OO implementation keeps base class information
        in the derived class instances).

        2. The problem is that if schemas/WSDL disallows the above then SOAP is not
        suitable for OO! (or maybe it need to be accomplished with some tricks).

        - Robert


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      • Robert van Engelen
        Hi Wes, I see. But don t you find it strange that the O in SOAP refers to Objects while XML schemas don t seem to be able to preserve basic OO semantics? A
        Message 3 of 23 , Apr 3, 2002
          Hi Wes,

          I see. But don't you find it strange that the O in SOAP refers to Objects
          while XML schemas don't seem to be able to preserve basic OO semantics?

          A restriction won't work as you pointed out because the zip field of the base
          is overwritten with a new definition for zip. Extension seems to be more
          natural. After all, we add new fields to a base class to get a derived class.

          Again, if this cannot be resolved in schemas/WSDL then SOAP will not be
          suitable for object exchange. The .NET guys must have a tremendous problem
          at their hands when they say that C# is competative to Java while Java
          preserves simple OO semantics while C# cannot? I would like to hear some
          more, especially from the .NET people :-)

          Wes Moulder wrote:
          >
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          > Content-Type: text/plain;
          > charset="US-ASCII"
          > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
          >
          > Robert,
          > I believe it would have to be a restriction, not an extension, since
          > you're changing the behaviour of zip, and even then, I don't think
          > you're allowed to completely alter the type of data, just restrict its
          > possibilities.
          >
          > This is all from a vague understanding of xmlschema-1/ section 3.9.6,
          > though.
          > The multiple zip problem is still in effect, though; thus you wouldn't
          > have two zip entries.
          >
          > For better understanding of where I'm coming from, take it as if zip
          > were defined as ur-type, and string.
          > Now, send in two normalized strings. Which zip maps to which field?
          > <sequence> would say it's order dependant, right?
          > Where do parent elements go in terms of extension?
          >
          > You might also look in xmlschema-1 section 2.2.1, where it talks about
          > DataTypes.
          >
          > As far as OO goes, I don't think you can take an object that contains a
          > String, and replace it with an int, and have any assumptions still hold
          > up.
          > Take this for an example:
          >
          > Address{
          > String zip;
          > String city;
          > String country;
          > }
          >
          > and
          > USAddress :: Address {
          > Int zip;
          > }
          >
          > if I set the int on USAddress, and pass it into a function that looks
          > for an Address, the String would be empty/null, which isn't what you're
          > after.
          >
          > --Wes
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Robert van Engelen [mailto:engelen@...]
          > Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 12:27 PM
          > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] Schema question
          >
          >
          > Thanks!
          >
          > It is easy to overlook this kind of information in these long specs.
          >
          > One more question though: is the following legal?
          >
          > <complexType name="baseAddress">
          > <sequence>
          > <element name="city" type="xsd:string"/>
          > <element name="zip" type="xsd:string"/>
          > <element name="country" type="xsd:string"/>
          > </sequence>
          > </complexType>
          >
          > <complexType name="address">
          > <complexContent>
          > <extension base="tns:baseAddress">
          > <sequence>
          > <element name="zip" type="xsd:integer"/>
          > </sequence>
          > </extension>
          > </complexContent>
          > </complexType>
          >
          > If this is legal, is the resulting XML allowed to carry two zip elements
          > or
          > only one?
          >
          > I am asking this because:
          >
          > 1. gSOAP supports single inheritance. When communicating derived class
          > instances over SOAP also the base class members need to be present in
          > the
          > SOAP message (just like any OO implementation keeps base class
          > information
          > in the derived class instances).
          >
          > 2. The problem is that if schemas/WSDL disallows the above then SOAP is
          > not
          > suitable for OO! (or maybe it need to be accomplished with some tricks).
          >
          > - Robert
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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          > %3eM=215002.1954253.3462811.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705701014:HM/A=100023
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          >
          > -----------------------------------------------------------------
          > This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss
          > implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > soapbuilders-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
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          >
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          > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
          > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Robert,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
          >
          > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
          > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I believe it would have to be a
          > restriction, not an extension, since you’re changing the behaviour of zip,
          > and even then, I don’t think you’re allowed to completely alter the
          > type of data, just restrict its possibilities.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
          >
          > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
          > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
          >
          > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
          > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>This is all from a vague understanding of
          > xmlschema-1/ section 3.9.6, though.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
          >
          > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
          > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The multiple zip problem is still in
          > effect, though; thus you wouldn’t have two zip entries.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
          >
          > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
          > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
          >
          > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
          > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>For better understanding of where I’m
          > coming from, take it as if zip were defined as ur-type, and string.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
          >
          > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
          > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Now, send in two normalized strings.<span
          > style='mso-spacerun:yes'>  </span>Which zip maps to which field?
          > <sequence> would say it’s order dependant, right?<span
          > style='mso-spacerun:yes'>  </span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
          >
          > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
          > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Where do parent elements go in terms of
          > extension?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
          >
          > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
          > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
          >
          > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
          > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>You might also look in xmlschema-1 section
          > 2.2.1, where it talks about DataTypes.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
          >
          > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
          > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
          >
          > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
          > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>As far as OO goes, I don’t think you
          > can take an object that contains a String, and replace it with an int, and have
          > any assumptions still hold up.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
          >
          > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
          > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Take this for an example:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
          >
          > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
          > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
          >
          > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
          > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Address{<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
          >
          > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
          > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> 
          > </span>String zip;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
          >
          > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
          > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> 
          > </span>String city;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
          >
          > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
          > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> 
          > </span>String country;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
          >
          > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
          > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>}<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
          >
          > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
          > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
          >
          > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
          > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>and <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
          >
          > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
          > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>USAddress :: Address {<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
          >
          > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
          > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> 
          > </span>Int zip;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
          >
          > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
          > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>}<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
          >
          > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
          > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
          >
          > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
          > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>if I set the int on USAddress, and pass it
          > into a function that looks for an Address, the String would be empty/null,
          > which isn’t what you’re after.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
          >
          > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
          > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
          >
          > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
          > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>--Wes<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
          >
          > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
          > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
          >
          > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
          > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
          >
          > <p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
          > style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
          > <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> Robert van Engelen
          > [mailto:engelen@...] <br>
          > <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> </span></font><st1:date
          > Month="4" Day="3" Year="2002"><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:
          > 10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Wednesday, April 03, 2002</span></font></st1:date><font
          > size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> </span></font><st1:time
          > Hour="12" Minute="27"><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
          > font-family:Tahoma'>12:27 PM</span></font></st1:time><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
          > style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><br>
          > <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com<br>
          > <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [soapbuilders] Schema
          > question</span></font></p>
          >
          > <p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
          > style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
          >
          > <p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
          > style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><br>
          > <tt><font face="Courier New">Thanks!</font></tt><br>
          > <br>
          > <tt><font face="Courier New">It is easy to overlook this kind of information in
          > these long specs.</font></tt><br>
          > <br>
          > <tt><font face="Courier New">One more question though: is the following legal?</font></tt><br>
          > <br>
          > <tt><font face="Courier New"><complexType name="baseAddress"></font></tt><br>
          > <tt><font face="Courier New">  <sequence></font></tt><br>
          > <tt><font face="Courier New">    <element
          > name="city" type="xsd:string"/></font></tt><br>
          > <tt><font face="Courier New">    <element
          > name="zip" type="xsd:string"/></font></tt><br>
          > <tt><font face="Courier New">    <element
          > name="country" type="xsd:string"/></font></tt><br>
          > <tt><font face="Courier New">  </sequence></font></tt><br>
          > <tt><font face="Courier New"></complexType></font></tt><br>
          > <br>
          > <tt><font face="Courier New"><complexType name="address"></font></tt><br>
          > <tt><font face="Courier New">  <complexContent></font></tt><br>
          > <tt><font face="Courier New">    <extension
          > base="tns:baseAddress"></font></tt><br>
          > <tt><font face="Courier New">      <sequence></font></tt><br>
          > <tt><font face="Courier New">       
          > <element name="zip" type="xsd:integer"/></font></tt><br>
          > <tt><font face="Courier New">      </sequence></font></tt><br>
          > <tt><font face="Courier New">    </extension></font></tt><br>
          > <tt><font face="Courier New">  </complexContent></font></tt><br>
          > <tt><font face="Courier New"></complexType></font></tt><br>
          > <br>
          > <tt><font face="Courier New">If this is legal, is the resulting XML allowed to
          > carry two zip elements or</font></tt><br>
          > <tt><font face="Courier New">only one?</font></tt><br>
          > <br>
          > <tt><font face="Courier New">I am asking this because:</font></tt><br>
          > <br>
          > <tt><font face="Courier New">1. gSOAP supports single inheritance. When
          > communicating derived class</font></tt><br>
          > <tt><font face="Courier New">instances over SOAP also the base class members
          > need to be present in the</font></tt><br>
          > <tt><font face="Courier New">SOAP message (just like any OO implementation
          > keeps base class information</font></tt><br>
          > <tt><font face="Courier New">in the derived class instances).</font></tt><br>
          > <br>
          > <tt><font face="Courier New">2. The problem is that if schemas/WSDL disallows
          > the above then SOAP is not</font></tt><br>
          > <tt><font face="Courier New">suitable for OO! (or maybe it need to be
          > accomplished with some tricks).</font></tt><br>
          > <br>
          > <tt><font face="Courier New">- Robert</font></tt><br>
          > </span></font><br style='mso-special-character:line-break'>
          > <![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><br style='mso-special-character:line-break'>
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          --
          Robert van Engelen: Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department
          Florida State University, 206 J. Love Bldg., Tallahassee, FL32306-4530
          Offices: 162LOV/471DSL, (850)644-9661/645-0309, Fax: (850)644-0058
          Email: engelen@..., URL: http://www.cs.fsu.edu/~engelen
        • Wes Moulder
          Well, as far as Java goes, if you have two classes, Address and USAddress, Like this: public class Address { String city; String zip; String country; } public
          Message 4 of 23 , Apr 3, 2002

            Well, as far as Java goes, if you have two classes, Address and USAddress, Like this:

             

            public class Address

              {

              String city;

              String zip;

              String country;

              }

             

            public class USAddress extends Address

              {

              int zip;

              }

             

            Both zips are around.  However, anything that uses Address, and accesses zip will get a null value.  Preserving that semantic would be a bad idea to me, as it breaks the principal of least surprises.  SOAP is more about Data from an OO standpoint, and less about Objects.  When you pass an object back and forth across platforms, there is no guarantee that the other side will have the same methods available.

             

            IE:

             

            public static void main( String[] args )

              {

              USAddress address = new USAddress();

              address.zip = 1;

              printOutZip( address );

              }

             

            public void printOutZip( Address address )

              {

              System.out.println( address.zip );

              }

             

            Hope that helps you understand my POV.

            --Wes

             

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Robert van Engelen [mailto:engelen@...]
            Sent
            : Wednesday, April 03, 2002 1:07 PM
            To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] Schema question

             


            Hi Wes,

            I see. But don't you find it strange that the O in SOAP refers to Objects
            while XML schemas don't seem to be able to preserve basic OO semantics?

            A restriction won't work as you pointed out because the zip field of the base
            is overwritten with a new definition for zip. Extension seems to be more
            natural. After all, we add new fields to a base class to get a derived class.

            Again, if this cannot be resolved in schemas/WSDL then SOAP will not be
            suitable for object exchange. The .NET guys must have a tremendous problem
            at their hands when they say that C# is competative to Java while Java
            preserves simple OO semantics while C# cannot? I would like to hear some
            more, especially from the .NET people :-)

            Wes Moulder wrote:
            >
            > ------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C1DB0D.2C1B77E0
            > Content-Type: text/plain;
            >       charset="US-ASCII"
            > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
            >
            > Robert,
            > I believe it would have to be a restriction, not an extension, since
            > you're changing the behaviour of zip, and even then, I don't think
            > you're allowed to completely alter the type of data, just restrict its
            > possibilities.

            > This is all from a vague understanding of xmlschema-1/ section 3.9.6,
            > though.
            > The multiple zip problem is still in effect, though; thus you wouldn't
            > have two zip entries.

            > For better understanding of where I'm coming from, take it as if zip
            > were defined as ur-type, and string.
            > Now, send in two normalized strings.  Which zip maps to which field?
            > <sequence> would say it's order dependant, right? 
            > Where do parent elements go in terms of extension?

            > You might also look in xmlschema-1 section 2.2.1, where it talks about
            > DataTypes.

            > As far as OO goes, I don't think you can take an object that contains a
            > String, and replace it with an int, and have any assumptions still hold
            > up.
            > Take this for an example:

            > Address{
            >   String zip;
            >   String city;
            >   String country;
            > }

            > and
            > USAddress :: Address {
            >   Int zip;
            > }

            > if I set the int on USAddress, and pass it into a function that looks
            > for an Address, the String would be empty/null, which isn't what you're
            > after.

            > --Wes


            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Robert van Engelen [mailto:engelen@...]
            > Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 12:27 PM
            > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] Schema question

            >
            > Thanks!
            >
            > It is easy to overlook this kind of information in these long specs.
            >
            > One more question though: is the following legal?
            >
            > <complexType name="baseAddress">
            >   <sequence>
            >     <element name="city" type="xsd:string"/>
            >     <element name="zip" type="xsd:string"/>
            >     <element name="country" type="xsd:string"/>
            >   </sequence>
            > </complexType>
            >
            > <complexType name="address">
            >   <complexContent>
            >     <extension base="tns:baseAddress">
            >       <sequence>
            >         <element name="zip" type="xsd:integer"/>
            >       </sequence>
            >     </extension>
            >   </complexContent>
            > </complexType>
            >
            > If this is legal, is the resulting XML allowed to carry two zip elements
            > or
            > only one?
            >
            > I am asking this because:
            >
            > 1. gSOAP supports single inheritance. When communicating derived class
            > instances over SOAP also the base class members need to be present in
            > the
            > SOAP message (just like any OO implementation keeps base class
            > information
            > in the derived class instances).
            >
            > 2. The problem is that if schemas/WSDL disallows the above then SOAP is
            > not
            > suitable for OO! (or maybe it need to be accomplished with some tricks).
            >
            > - Robert
            >
            >
            >
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            > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
            > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Robert,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
            >
            > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
            > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I believe it would have to be a
            > restriction, not an extension, since you&#8217;re changing the behaviour of zip,
            > and even then, I don&#8217;t think you&#8217;re allowed to completely alter the
            > type of data, just restrict its possibilities.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
            >
            > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
            > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
            >
            > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
            > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>This is all from a vague understanding of
            > xmlschema-1/ section 3.9.6, though.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
            >
            > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
            > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The multiple zip problem is still in
            > effect, though; thus you wouldn&#8217;t have two zip entries.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
            >
            > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
            > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
            >
            > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
            > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>For better understanding of where I&#8217;m
            > coming from, take it as if zip were defined as ur-type, and string.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
            >
            > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
            > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Now, send in two normalized strings.<span
            > style='mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp; </span>Which zip maps to which field?
            > &lt;sequence&gt; would say it&#8217;s order dependant, right?<span
            > style='mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp; </span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
            >
            > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
            > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Where do parent elements go in terms of
            > extension?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
            >
            > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
            > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
            >
            > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
            > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>You might also look in xmlschema-1 section
            > 2.2.1, where it talks about DataTypes.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
            >
            > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
            > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
            >
            > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
            > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>As far as OO goes, I don&#8217;t think you
            > can take an object that contains a String, and replace it with an int, and have
            > any assumptions still hold up.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
            >
            > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
            > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Take this for an example:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
            >
            > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
            > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
            >
            > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
            > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Address{<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
            >
            > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
            > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><span style='mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp;
            > </span>String zip;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
            >
            > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
            > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><span style='mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp;
            > </span>String city;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
            >
            > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
            > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><span style='mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp;
            > </span>String country;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
            >
            > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
            > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>}<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
            >
            > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
            > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
            >
            > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
            > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>and <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
            >
            > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
            > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>USAddress :: Address {<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
            >
            > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
            > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><span style='mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp;
            > </span>Int zip;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
            >
            > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
            > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>}<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
            >
            > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
            > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
            >
            > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
            > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>if I set the int on USAddress, and pass it
            > into a function that looks for an Address, the String would be empty/null,
            > which isn&#8217;t what you&#8217;re after.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
            >
            > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
            > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
            >
            > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
            > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>--Wes<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
            >
            > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
            > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
            >
            > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
            > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
            >
            > <p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
            > style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
            > <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> Robert van Engelen
            > [mailto:engelen@...] <br>
            > <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> </span></font><st1:date
            > Month="4" Day="3" Year="2002"><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:
            >  10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Wednesday, April 03, 2002</span></font></st1:date><font
            > size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> </span></font><st1:time
            > Hour="12" Minute="27"><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
            >  font-family:Tahoma'>12:27 PM</span></font></st1:time><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
            > style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><br>
            > <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com<br>
            > <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [soapbuilders] Schema
            > question</span></font></p>
            >
            > <p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
            > style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
            >
            > <p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
            > style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><br>
            > <tt><font face="Courier New">Thanks!</font></tt><br>
            > <br>
            > <tt><font face="Courier New">It is easy to overlook this kind of information in
            > these long specs.</font></tt><br>
            > <br>
            > <tt><font face="Courier New">One more question though: is the following legal?</font></tt><br>
            > <br>
            > <tt><font face="Courier New">&lt;complexType name=&quot;baseAddress&quot;&gt;</font></tt><br>
            > <tt><font face="Courier New">&nbsp; &lt;sequence&gt;</font></tt><br>
            > <tt><font face="Courier New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;element
            > name=&quot;city&quot; type=&quot;xsd:string&quot;/&gt;</font></tt><br>
            > <tt><font face="Courier New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;element
            > name=&quot;zip&quot; type=&quot;xsd:string&quot;/&gt;</font></tt><br>
            > <tt><font face="Courier New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;element
            > name=&quot;country&quot; type=&quot;xsd:string&quot;/&gt;</font></tt><br>
            > <tt><font face="Courier New">&nbsp; &lt;/sequence&gt;</font></tt><br>
            > <tt><font face="Courier New">&lt;/complexType&gt;</font></tt><br>
            > <br>
            > <tt><font face="Courier New">&lt;complexType name=&quot;address&quot;&gt;</font></tt><br>
            > <tt><font face="Courier New">&nbsp; &lt;complexContent&gt;</font></tt><br>
            > <tt><font face="Courier New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;extension
            > base=&quot;tns:baseAddress&quot;&gt;</font></tt><br>
            > <tt><font face="Courier New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;sequence&gt;</font></tt><br>
            > <tt><font face="Courier New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
            > &lt;element name=&quot;zip&quot; type=&quot;xsd:integer&quot;/&gt;</font></tt><br>
            > <tt><font face="Courier New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;/sequence&gt;</font></tt><br>
            > <tt><font face="Courier New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;/extension&gt;</font></tt><br>
            > <tt><font face="Courier New">&nbsp; &lt;/complexContent&gt;</font></tt><br>
            > <tt><font face="Courier New">&lt;/complexType&gt;</font></tt><br>
            > <br>
            > <tt><font face="Courier New">If this is legal, is the resulting XML allowed to
            > carry two zip elements or</font></tt><br>
            > <tt><font face="Courier New">only one?</font></tt><br>
            > <br>
            > <tt><font face="Courier New">I am asking this because:</font></tt><br>
            > <br>
            > <tt><font face="Courier New">1. gSOAP supports single inheritance. When
            > communicating derived class</font></tt><br>
            > <tt><font face="Courier New">instances over SOAP also the base class members
            > need to be present in the</font></tt><br>
            > <tt><font face="Courier New">SOAP message (just like any OO implementation
            > keeps base class information</font></tt><br>
            > <tt><font face="Courier New">in the derived class instances).</font></tt><br>
            > <br>
            > <tt><font face="Courier New">2. The problem is that if schemas/WSDL disallows
            > the above then SOAP is not</font></tt><br>
            > <tt><font face="Courier New">suitable for OO! (or maybe it need to be
            > accomplished with some tricks).</font></tt><br>
            > <br>
            > <tt><font face="Courier New">- Robert</font></tt><br>
            > </span></font><br style='mso-special-character:line-break'>
            > <![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><br style='mso-special-character:line-break'>
            > <![endif]><o:p></o:p></p>
            >
            > </span></font><tt><font size=2
            > face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>-----------------------------------------------------------------</span></font></tt><font
            > size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><br>
            > <tt><font face="Courier New">This group is a forum for builders of SOAP
            > implementations to discuss implementation and interoperability issues.&nbsp;
            > Please stay on-topic.</font></tt><br>
            > <br>
            > <tt><font face="Courier New">To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:</font></tt><br>
            > <tt><font face="Courier New">soapbuilders-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</font></tt><br>
            > <br>
            > </span></font><br>
            > <br>
            > <tt><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Your use of
            > Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo!
            > Terms of Service</a>.</span></font></tt> <o:p></o:p></p>
            >
            > </br></div>
            >
            >
            > <br>
            >
            > <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
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            > -----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
            > This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss implementation and interoperability issues.&nbsp; Please stay on-topic.<BR>
            > <BR>
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<BR>
            > soapbuilders-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<BR>
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            > <br>
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            > <tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of Service</a>.</tt>
            > </br>
            >
            > </body>
            >
            > </html>
            >
            > ------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C1DB0D.2C1B77E0--
            >


            --
                Robert van Engelen: Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department
               Florida State University, 206 J. Love Bldg., Tallahassee, FL32306-4530
                 Offices: 162LOV/471DSL, (850)644-9661/645-0309, Fax: (850)644-0058
                   Email: engelen@..., URL: http://www.cs.fsu.edu/~engelen




            (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
          • Bob Cunnings
            Hello, How do C# or Java come into the picture? I though you were discussing the limitations of XML Schema... not C# RC
            Message 5 of 23 , Apr 3, 2002
              Hello,

              How do C# or Java come into the picture? I though you were
              discussing the limitations of XML Schema... not C#

              RC

              >
              > Hi Wes,
              >
              > I see. But don't you find it strange that the O in SOAP refers to Objects
              > while XML schemas don't seem to be able to preserve basic OO semantics?
              >
              > A restriction won't work as you pointed out because the zip field of the base
              > is overwritten with a new definition for zip. Extension seems to be more
              > natural. After all, we add new fields to a base class to get a derived class.
              >
              > Again, if this cannot be resolved in schemas/WSDL then SOAP will not be
              > suitable for object exchange. The .NET guys must have a tremendous problem
              > at their hands when they say that C# is competative to Java while Java
              > preserves simple OO semantics while C# cannot? I would like to hear some
              > more, especially from the .NET people :-)
              >
              > Wes Moulder wrote:
              > >
              > > ------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C1DB0D.2C1B77E0
              > > Content-Type: text/plain;
              > > charset="US-ASCII"
              > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
              > >
              > > Robert,
              > > I believe it would have to be a restriction, not an extension, since
              > > you're changing the behaviour of zip, and even then, I don't think
              > > you're allowed to completely alter the type of data, just restrict its
              > > possibilities.
              > >
              > > This is all from a vague understanding of xmlschema-1/ section 3.9.6,
              > > though.
              > > The multiple zip problem is still in effect, though; thus you wouldn't
              > > have two zip entries.
              > >
              > > For better understanding of where I'm coming from, take it as if zip
              > > were defined as ur-type, and string.
              > > Now, send in two normalized strings. Which zip maps to which field?
              > > <sequence> would say it's order dependant, right?
              > > Where do parent elements go in terms of extension?
              > >
              > > You might also look in xmlschema-1 section 2.2.1, where it talks about
              > > DataTypes.
              > >
              > > As far as OO goes, I don't think you can take an object that contains a
              > > String, and replace it with an int, and have any assumptions still hold
              > > up.
              > > Take this for an example:
              > >
              > > Address{
              > > String zip;
              > > String city;
              > > String country;
              > > }
              > >
              > > and
              > > USAddress :: Address {
              > > Int zip;
              > > }
              > >
              > > if I set the int on USAddress, and pass it into a function that looks
              > > for an Address, the String would be empty/null, which isn't what you're
              > > after.
              > >
              > > --Wes
              > >
              > >
            • Robert van Engelen
              Hi, ... Sorry, I am primarely looking for OO representations in SOAP and I think there are some problems that need to be addressed at the protocol level. Again
              Message 6 of 23 , Apr 3, 2002
                Hi,

                > How do C# or Java come into the picture? I though you were
                > discussing the limitations of XML Schema... not C#

                Sorry, I am primarely looking for OO representations in SOAP and I think
                there are some problems that need to be addressed at the protocol level.

                Again sorry, I want to demonstrate this with Java (no preference).

                Let's define a Test program:

                import java.io.*;
                public class Test
                { public static void doit(Base b) throws IOException
                { b.print();
                }
                public static void main(String argv[]) throws IOException
                { Derived d = new Derived();
                doit(d);
                }
                }

                With Base and Derived classes:

                import java.io.*;
                public class Base
                { String zip;
                public Base()
                { zip = new String("hello");
                }
                public void print() throws IOException
                { System.out.print(zip);
                }
                public void show() throws IOException
                { System.out.print(zip);
                }
                }

                import java.io.*;
                public class Derived extends Base
                { int zip;
                public Derived()
                { zip = 3;
                }
                public void show() throws IOException
                { System.out.print(zip);
                }
                }

                When running the Test program, it will print "hello" which is the zip of Base.

                Now suppose that we implement 'doit' as a remote method. You see that it
                expects a Base class instance but we hand it a Derived class instance.

                The implementation will either:
                1. pre-convert the Derived class instance to a Base class at the sending side
                2. post-convert the Derived class instance to a Base class instance at the
                recieving side.

                #1 has the advantage that it will limit the data but the disadvantage is that
                an upgrade to the receiving server-side (to allow derived class instances)
                requires recompilation of the client.

                #2 has the advantage that the client does not have to be recompiled when the
                service is upgraded to accept derived instances.

                I recall (if correct) that SOAP 1.1 allowed for a scenario such as #2 which
                explains the fact that accessors can be ignored (unless MU=1).

                Even when you use #1, it may get you into trouble. Consider echoing a derived
                class instance:

                import java.io.*;
                public class Test
                { public static Base echo(Base b) throws IOException
                { return b;
                }
                public static void main(String argv[]) throws IOException
                { Derived d = new Derived();
                Base b;
                b = echo(d);
                b.show()
                }
                }

                This should print '3' instead of 'hello'.

                All I am saying is that SOAP and schema's don't seem to support these simple
                OO semantics for RMI.

                gSOAP does support it (using scenario #2) and I have an echo method example
                that works just like the above example. I am afraid that this is not
                interoperable and cannot be supported by SOAP/WSDL because of schema problems.

                Are there any other SOAP implementation out there that supports the above
                echo example?

                - Robert
              • Yann Christensen
                ... while XML schemas don t seem to be able to preserve basic OO semantics? From what I understand, in SOAP 1.2 the S, O, A, and P don t stand for anything.
                Message 7 of 23 , Apr 3, 2002
                  > But don't you find it strange that the O in SOAP refers to Objects
                  while XML schemas don't seem to be able to preserve basic OO semantics?

                  From what I understand, in SOAP 1.2 the S, O, A, and P don't stand for
                  anything.

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Robert van Engelen [mailto:engelen@...]
                  Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 11:07 AM
                  To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] Schema question


                  Hi Wes,

                  I see. But don't you find it strange that the O in SOAP refers to
                  Objects
                  while XML schemas don't seem to be able to preserve basic OO semantics?

                  A restriction won't work as you pointed out because the zip field of the
                  base
                  is overwritten with a new definition for zip. Extension seems to be more
                  natural. After all, we add new fields to a base class to get a derived
                  class.

                  Again, if this cannot be resolved in schemas/WSDL then SOAP will not be
                  suitable for object exchange. The .NET guys must have a tremendous
                  problem
                  at their hands when they say that C# is competative to Java while Java
                  preserves simple OO semantics while C# cannot? I would like to hear some
                  more, especially from the .NET people :-)

                  Wes Moulder wrote:
                  >
                  > ------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C1DB0D.2C1B77E0
                  > Content-Type: text/plain;
                  > charset="US-ASCII"
                  > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
                  >
                  > Robert,
                  > I believe it would have to be a restriction, not an extension, since
                  > you're changing the behaviour of zip, and even then, I don't think
                  > you're allowed to completely alter the type of data, just restrict its
                  > possibilities.
                  >
                  > This is all from a vague understanding of xmlschema-1/ section 3.9.6,
                  > though.
                  > The multiple zip problem is still in effect, though; thus you wouldn't
                  > have two zip entries.
                  >
                  > For better understanding of where I'm coming from, take it as if zip
                  > were defined as ur-type, and string.
                  > Now, send in two normalized strings. Which zip maps to which field?
                  > <sequence> would say it's order dependant, right?
                  > Where do parent elements go in terms of extension?
                  >
                  > You might also look in xmlschema-1 section 2.2.1, where it talks about
                  > DataTypes.
                  >
                  > As far as OO goes, I don't think you can take an object that contains
                  a
                  > String, and replace it with an int, and have any assumptions still
                  hold
                  > up.
                  > Take this for an example:
                  >
                  > Address{
                  > String zip;
                  > String city;
                  > String country;
                  > }
                  >
                  > and
                  > USAddress :: Address {
                  > Int zip;
                  > }
                  >
                  > if I set the int on USAddress, and pass it into a function that looks
                  > for an Address, the String would be empty/null, which isn't what
                  you're
                  > after.
                  >
                  > --Wes
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Robert van Engelen [mailto:engelen@...]
                  > Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 12:27 PM
                  > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] Schema question
                  >
                  >
                  > Thanks!
                  >
                  > It is easy to overlook this kind of information in these long specs.
                  >
                  > One more question though: is the following legal?
                  >
                  > <complexType name="baseAddress">
                  > <sequence>
                  > <element name="city" type="xsd:string"/>
                  > <element name="zip" type="xsd:string"/>
                  > <element name="country" type="xsd:string"/>
                  > </sequence>
                  > </complexType>
                  >
                  > <complexType name="address">
                  > <complexContent>
                  > <extension base="tns:baseAddress">
                  > <sequence>
                  > <element name="zip" type="xsd:integer"/>
                  > </sequence>
                  > </extension>
                  > </complexContent>
                  > </complexType>
                  >
                  > If this is legal, is the resulting XML allowed to carry two zip
                  elements
                  > or
                  > only one?
                  >
                  > I am asking this because:
                  >
                  > 1. gSOAP supports single inheritance. When communicating derived class
                  > instances over SOAP also the base class members need to be present in
                  > the
                  > SOAP message (just like any OO implementation keeps base class
                  > information
                  > in the derived class instances).
                  >
                  > 2. The problem is that if schemas/WSDL disallows the above then SOAP
                  is
                  > not
                  > suitable for OO! (or maybe it need to be accomplished with some
                  tricks).
                  >
                  > - Robert
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                  >
                  > <body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=blue style='tab-interval:.5in'>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > <div class=Section1>
                  >
                  > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
                  style='font-size:
                  >
                  10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Robert,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p
                  >
                  >
                  > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
                  style='font-size:
                  > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I believe it would have to be a
                  > restriction, not an extension, since you’re changing the
                  behaviour of zip,
                  > and even then, I don’t think you’re allowed to completely
                  alter the
                  > type of data, just restrict its
                  possibilities.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
                  >
                  > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
                  style='font-size:
                  >
                  10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
                  >
                  > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
                  style='font-size:
                  > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>This is all from a vague
                  understanding of
                  > xmlschema-1/ section 3.9.6, though.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
                  >
                  > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
                  style='font-size:
                  > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The multiple zip problem is still
                  in
                  > effect, though; thus you wouldn’t have two zip
                  entries.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
                  >
                  > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
                  style='font-size:
                  >
                  10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
                  >
                  > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
                  style='font-size:
                  > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>For better understanding of where
                  I’m
                  > coming from, take it as if zip were defined as ur-type, and
                  string.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
                  >
                  > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
                  style='font-size:
                  > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Now, send in two normalized
                  strings.<span
                  > style='mso-spacerun:yes'>  </span>Which zip maps to which field?
                  > <sequence> would say it’s order dependant, right?<span
                  > style='mso-spacerun:yes'>  </span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
                  >
                  > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
                  style='font-size:
                  > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Where do parent elements go in
                  terms of
                  > extension?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
                  >
                  > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
                  style='font-size:
                  >
                  10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
                  >
                  > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
                  style='font-size:
                  > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>You might also look in
                  xmlschema-1 section
                  > 2.2.1, where it talks about DataTypes.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
                  >
                  > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
                  style='font-size:
                  >
                  10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
                  >
                  > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
                  style='font-size:
                  > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>As far as OO goes, I don’t
                  think you
                  > can take an object that contains a String, and replace it with an int,
                  and have
                  > any assumptions still hold up.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
                  >
                  > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
                  style='font-size:
                  > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Take this for an
                  example:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
                  >
                  > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
                  style='font-size:
                  >
                  10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
                  >
                  > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
                  style='font-size:
                  >
                  10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Address{<o:p></o:p></span></font></
                  p>
                  >
                  > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
                  style='font-size:
                  > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><span
                  style='mso-spacerun:yes'> 
                  > </span>String zip;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
                  >
                  > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
                  style='font-size:
                  > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><span
                  style='mso-spacerun:yes'> 
                  > </span>String city;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
                  >
                  > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
                  style='font-size:
                  > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><span
                  style='mso-spacerun:yes'> 
                  > </span>String country;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
                  >
                  > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
                  style='font-size:
                  > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>}<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
                  >
                  > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
                  style='font-size:
                  >
                  10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
                  >
                  > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
                  style='font-size:
                  > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>and <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
                  >
                  > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
                  style='font-size:
                  > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>USAddress :: Address
                  {<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
                  >
                  > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
                  style='font-size:
                  > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><span
                  style='mso-spacerun:yes'> 
                  > </span>Int zip;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
                  >
                  > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
                  style='font-size:
                  > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>}<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
                  >
                  > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
                  style='font-size:
                  >
                  10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
                  >
                  > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
                  style='font-size:
                  > 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>if I set the int on USAddress,
                  and pass it
                  > into a function that looks for an Address, the String would be
                  empty/null,
                  > which isn’t what you’re
                  after.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
                  >
                  > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
                  style='font-size:
                  >
                  10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
                  >
                  > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
                  style='font-size:
                  >
                  10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>--Wes<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
                  >
                  > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
                  style='font-size:
                  >
                  10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
                  >
                  > <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
                  style='font-size:
                  >
                  10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
                  >
                  > <p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2
                  face=Tahoma><span
                  > style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original
                  Message-----<br>
                  > <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> Robert van Engelen
                  > [mailto:engelen@...] <br>
                  > <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b>
                  </span></font><st1:date
                  > Month="4" Day="3" Year="2002"><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
                  style='font-size:
                  > 10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Wednesday, April 03,
                  2002</span></font></st1:date><font
                  > size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
                  </span></font><st1:time
                  > Hour="12" Minute="27"><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
                  style='font-size:10.0pt;
                  > font-family:Tahoma'>12:27 PM</span></font></st1:time><font size=2
                  face=Tahoma><span
                  > style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><br>
                  > <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b>
                  soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com<br>
                  > <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re:
                  [soapbuilders] Schema
                  > question</span></font></p>
                  >
                  > <p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times
                  New Roman"><span
                  > style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
                  >
                  > <p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face="Courier
                  New"><span
                  > style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><br>
                  > <tt><font face="Courier New">Thanks!</font></tt><br>
                  > <br>
                  > <tt><font face="Courier New">It is easy to overlook this kind of
                  information in
                  > these long specs.</font></tt><br>
                  > <br>
                  > <tt><font face="Courier New">One more question though: is the
                  following legal?</font></tt><br>
                  > <br>
                  > <tt><font face="Courier New"><complexType
                  name="baseAddress"></font></tt><br>
                  > <tt><font face="Courier New">  <sequence></font></tt><br>
                  > <tt><font face="Courier New">    <element
                  > name="city" type="xsd:string"/></font></tt><br>
                  > <tt><font face="Courier New">    <element
                  > name="zip" type="xsd:string"/></font></tt><br>
                  > <tt><font face="Courier New">    <element
                  > name="country"
                  type="xsd:string"/></font></tt><br>
                  > <tt><font face="Courier New">  </sequence></font></tt><br>
                  > <tt><font face="Courier New"></complexType></font></tt><br>
                  > <br>
                  > <tt><font face="Courier New"><complexType
                  name="address"></font></tt><br>
                  > <tt><font face="Courier New"> 
                  <complexContent></font></tt><br>
                  > <tt><font face="Courier New">    <extension
                  > base="tns:baseAddress"></font></tt><br>
                  > <tt><font face="Courier New">     
                  <sequence></font></tt><br>
                  > <tt><font face="Courier
                  New">       
                  > <element name="zip"
                  type="xsd:integer"/></font></tt><br>
                  > <tt><font face="Courier New">     
                  </sequence></font></tt><br>
                  > <tt><font face="Courier New">   
                  </extension></font></tt><br>
                  > <tt><font face="Courier New"> 
                  </complexContent></font></tt><br>
                  > <tt><font face="Courier New"></complexType></font></tt><br>
                  > <br>
                  > <tt><font face="Courier New">If this is legal, is the resulting XML
                  allowed to
                  > carry two zip elements or</font></tt><br>
                  > <tt><font face="Courier New">only one?</font></tt><br>
                  > <br>
                  > <tt><font face="Courier New">I am asking this because:</font></tt><br>
                  > <br>
                  > <tt><font face="Courier New">1. gSOAP supports single inheritance.
                  When
                  > communicating derived class</font></tt><br>
                  > <tt><font face="Courier New">instances over SOAP also the base class
                  members
                  > need to be present in the</font></tt><br>
                  > <tt><font face="Courier New">SOAP message (just like any OO
                  implementation
                  > keeps base class information</font></tt><br>
                  > <tt><font face="Courier New">in the derived class
                  instances).</font></tt><br>
                  > <br>
                  > <tt><font face="Courier New">2. The problem is that if schemas/WSDL
                  disallows
                  > the above then SOAP is not</font></tt><br>
                  > <tt><font face="Courier New">suitable for OO! (or maybe it need to be
                  > accomplished with some tricks).</font></tt><br>
                  > <br>
                  > <tt><font face="Courier New">- Robert</font></tt><br>
                  > </span></font><br style='mso-special-character:line-break'>
                  > <![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><br
                  style='mso-special-character:line-break'>
                  > <![endif]><o:p></o:p></p>
                  >
                  > </span></font><tt><font size=2
                  > face="Courier New"><span
                  style='font-size:10.0pt'>-----------------------------------------------
                  ------------------</span></font></tt><font
                  > size=2 face="Courier New"><span
                  style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><br>
                  > <tt><font face="Courier New">This group is a forum for builders of
                  SOAP
                  > implementations to discuss implementation and interoperability
                  issues. 
                  > Please stay on-topic.</font></tt><br>
                  > <br>
                  > <tt><font face="Courier New">To unsubscribe from this group, send an
                  email to:</font></tt><br>
                  > <tt><font face="Courier
                  New">soapbuilders-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</font></tt><br>
                  > <br>
                  > </span></font><br>
                  > <br>
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                  style='font-size:10.0pt'>Your use of
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                  >
                  > </br></div>
                  >
                  >
                  > <br>
                  >
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                  > This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss
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                  > ------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C1DB0D.2C1B77E0--
                  >


                  --
                  Robert van Engelen: Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department
                  Florida State University, 206 J. Love Bldg., Tallahassee,
                  FL32306-4530
                  Offices: 162LOV/471DSL, (850)644-9661/645-0309, Fax: (850)644-0058
                  Email: engelen@..., URL: http://www.cs.fsu.edu/~engelen


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                • Rich Salz
                  The SOAP RPC encoding can send data (e.g., aliased pointers via href/id) that cannot be expressed in XML Schema. There is no requirement that WSDL use XML
                  Message 8 of 23 , Apr 3, 2002
                    The SOAP RPC encoding can send data (e.g., aliased pointers via href/id)
                    that cannot be expressed in XML Schema. There is no requirement that
                    WSDL use XML Schema, although it is the "preferred" (er, sorry,
                    "canonical") data description.

                    You could, e.g., define your own "types" extgension element that
                    contained a URL to a Java interface, a Corba IDL file, etc.

                    It would seem that since you want to use SOAP for things that cannot be
                    expressed in XML Schema, then you shouldn't use XML Schema, and you
                    needn't. :)
                    /R$
                  • Martin Gudgin
                    No, for the same reason. The effective type definition for address is;
                    Message 9 of 23 , Apr 3, 2002
                      No, for the same reason. The effective type definition for address is;

                      <complexType name="address">
                      <sequence>
                      <element name="city" type="xsd:string"/>
                      <element name="zip" type="xsd:string"/>
                      <element name="country" type="xsd:string"/>
                      <element name="zip" type="xsd:integer"/>
                      </sequence>
                      </complexType>

                      Martin


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Robert van Engelen" <engelen@...>
                      To: <soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 7:27 PM
                      Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] Schema question


                      >
                      > Thanks!
                      >
                      > It is easy to overlook this kind of information in these long specs.
                      >
                      > One more question though: is the following legal?
                      >
                      > <complexType name="baseAddress">
                      > <sequence>
                      > <element name="city" type="xsd:string"/>
                      > <element name="zip" type="xsd:string"/>
                      > <element name="country" type="xsd:string"/>
                      > </sequence>
                      > </complexType>
                      >
                      > <complexType name="address">
                      > <complexContent>
                      > <extension base="tns:baseAddress">
                      > <sequence>
                      > <element name="zip" type="xsd:integer"/>
                      > </sequence>
                      > </extension>
                      > </complexContent>
                      > </complexType>
                      >
                      > If this is legal, is the resulting XML allowed to carry two zip elements
                      or
                      > only one?
                      >
                      > I am asking this because:
                      >
                      > 1. gSOAP supports single inheritance. When communicating derived class
                      > instances over SOAP also the base class members need to be present in the
                      > SOAP message (just like any OO implementation keeps base class information
                      > in the derived class instances).
                      >
                      > 2. The problem is that if schemas/WSDL disallows the above then SOAP is
                      not
                      > suitable for OO! (or maybe it need to be accomplished with some tricks).
                      >
                      > - Robert
                      >
                      >
                      > -----------------------------------------------------------------
                      > This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss
                      implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > soapbuilders-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                    • Rosimildo daSIlva
                      ... I agree. The programming languages are what they are. C#, Java, C++ and others have the constructs to build Classes, Inheritance, Polymorphism, etc.These
                      Message 10 of 23 , Apr 3, 2002
                        >
                        > How do C# or Java come into the picture? I though
                        > you were
                        > discussing the limitations of XML Schema... not C#
                        >

                        I agree. The programming languages are what they are.
                        C#, Java, C++
                        and others have the constructs to build Classes,
                        Inheritance, Polymorphism, etc.These mechanisms are
                        very powerful.

                        At the same time, I understand where Robert is
                        coming from.

                        As has been debated before, XML-Schema and in some
                        extent SOAP/WSDL, are
                        very limited regarding modeling of systems using
                        techniques sich as Object
                        Orientation. The Schema limits you on how you define
                        "Messages" to be delivered
                        back and forth, and WSDL is very weak regarding
                        composition of end-points.

                        Assuming that one "portType", defines one interface.
                        It would be nice
                        to compose more complex interfaces ( portTypes ) using
                        inheritance:

                        interface SuperTV extends PublicTV, CableTV, DishTV
                        {


                        };

                        where: PublicTV --- described by public_tv.wsdl,
                        CableTV --- described by cable_tv.wsdl,
                        DiskTV --- described by dish_tv.wsdl

                        Now this service, super_tv.wsdl is higher level
                        service that using composition
                        provide a more sophisticated service that wants
                        simplicity for a fee. <g>

                        This is very basic, and still missing in WSDL/SOAP.
                        Imagine things
                        like Security, Session Managment, QoS, etc.

                        Rosimildo.



                        __________________________________________________
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                      • david_cleary
                        ... Since I haven t seen a reply that tells you how to code this, here it goes. Use a union type. Here is the syntax using an anonyomous type decl and requires
                        Message 11 of 23 , Apr 4, 2002
                          --- In soapbuilders@y..., Robert van Engelen <engelen@a...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi,
                          >
                          > I have a question with regard to the validity of the following
                          schema:
                          >
                          > <complexType name="address">
                          > <sequence>
                          > <element name="city" type="xsd:string"/>
                          > <element name="zip" type="xsd:string"/>
                          > <element name="zip" type="xsd:integer"/>
                          > <element name="country" type="xsd:string"/>
                          > </sequence>
                          > </complexType>

                          Since I haven't seen a reply that tells you how to code this, here it
                          goes. Use a union type. Here is the syntax using an anonyomous type
                          decl and requires both to be present.

                          <xs:element name="zip" minOccurs="2" maxOccurs="2">
                          <xs:simpleType>
                          <xs:union memberTypes="xs:int xs:string"/>
                          </xs:simpleType>
                          </xs:element>

                          You need to use xsi:type in the instance if the datatype can't be
                          determined by the data.

                          David Cleary
                          Progress Software
                        • Noah Mendelsohn/Cambridge/IBM
                          ... No, but the reason is either subtle (or pretty) as you prefer. Gudge has already pointed out that [1]: When two or more particles contained directly or
                          Message 12 of 23 , Apr 4, 2002
                            Rob van Engelen asks:

                            >> One more question though: is the following legal?

                            >> <complexType name="baseAddress">
                            >> <sequence>
                            >> <element name="city" type="xsd:string"/>
                            >> <element name="zip" type="xsd:string"/>
                            >> <element name="country" type="xsd:string"/>
                            >> </sequence>
                            >> </complexType>
                            >>
                            >> <complexType name="address">
                            >> <complexContent>
                            >> <extension base="tns:baseAddress">
                            >> <sequence>
                            >> <element name="zip" type="xsd:integer"/>
                            >> </sequence>
                            >> </extension>
                            >> </complexContent>
                            >> </complexType>

                            No, but the reason is either subtle (or pretty) as you prefer. Gudge has
                            already pointed out that [1]:

                            'When two or more particles contained directly or indirectly in the
                            {particles} of a model group have identically named element declarations
                            as
                            their {term}, the type definitions of those declarations must be the
                            same.'

                            If you read [2] you will find out that when <extension> is used in a
                            schema document, the derived type has a {term} (essentially a particle)
                            which is the net content model. In your case, a sequence of city,zip,
                            country, zip (actually, I think it's
                            sequence(sequence(city,zip,country),zip)). This model group violates the
                            rule cited by Gudge. Hence, invalid.

                            Actually, if you are a real schema guru, you will note that this only
                            covers the common case in which you used the <schema> syntax to declare
                            your schema. The general case is covered at [3], combined with [1]. It
                            states:

                            "[Definition:] For a particle (call it E, for extension) to be a valid
                            extension of another particle (call it B, for base) one of the following
                            must be true:
                            1 They are the same particle.
                            2 E's {min occurs}={max occurs}=1 and its {term} is a sequence group whose
                            {particles}' first member is a particle all of whose properties,
                            recursively, are identical to those of B, with the exception of
                            {annotation} properties. "

                            In other words, the constructs from the base type appear in the same
                            particle of as the derived, and hence are subject to the rule cited by
                            Gudge.

                            In short, this example is clearly invalid, IMO at least.

                            [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-1/#Model_Group_details
                            [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-1/#declare-type
                            [3] http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-1/#cos-particle-extend

                            ------------------------------------------------------------------
                            Noah Mendelsohn Voice: 1-617-693-4036
                            IBM Corporation Fax: 1-617-693-8676
                            One Rogers Street
                            Cambridge, MA 02142
                            ------------------------------------------------------------------







                            Robert van Engelen <engelen@...>
                            04/03/02 01:27 PM
                            Please respond to soapbuilders


                            To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                            cc: (bcc: Noah Mendelsohn/Cambridge/IBM)
                            Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] Schema question


                            Thanks!

                            It is easy to overlook this kind of information in these long specs.

                            One more question though: is the following legal?

                            <complexType name="baseAddress">
                            <sequence>
                            <element name="city" type="xsd:string"/>
                            <element name="zip" type="xsd:string"/>
                            <element name="country" type="xsd:string"/>
                            </sequence>
                            </complexType>

                            <complexType name="address">
                            <complexContent>
                            <extension base="tns:baseAddress">
                            <sequence>
                            <element name="zip" type="xsd:integer"/>
                            </sequence>
                            </extension>
                            </complexContent>
                            </complexType>

                            If this is legal, is the resulting XML allowed to carry two zip elements
                            or
                            only one?

                            I am asking this because:

                            1. gSOAP supports single inheritance. When communicating derived class
                            instances over SOAP also the base class members need to be present in the
                            SOAP message (just like any OO implementation keeps base class information
                            in the derived class instances).

                            2. The problem is that if schemas/WSDL disallows the above then SOAP is
                            not
                            suitable for OO! (or maybe it need to be accomplished with some tricks).

                            - Robert


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                          • Rosimildo daSIlva
                            ... I am glad that there are people around here with that qualifications. Everytime I get close to the XML Schema spec, I feel sorry for myself, and I feel
                            Message 13 of 23 , Apr 4, 2002
                              <noah_mendelsohn@...> wrote:
                              > Rob van Engelen asks:
                              >
                              > Actually, if you are a real schema guru, you will
                              > note that this only
                              > covers the common case in which you used the
                              > <schema> syntax to declare
                              > your schema. The general case is covered at [3],
                              > combined with [1]. It
                              > states:
                              >

                              I am glad that there are people around here with that
                              qualifications. <g>

                              Everytime I get close to the XML Schema spec, I feel
                              sorry for myself, and I feel so "small" thinking to
                              myself that I need the next 10 years to really
                              understand it.

                              Rosimildo.



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                            • Robert van Engelen
                              Noah, Thanks. Your comments are highly appreciated. Based on this I can conclude that the extension mechanism is not suitable to implement the usual OO base
                              Message 14 of 23 , Apr 4, 2002
                                Noah,

                                Thanks. Your comments are highly appreciated.

                                Based on this I can conclude that the extension mechanism is not suitable
                                to implement the usual OO base class overriding semantics. Which means that
                                a derived class (in the OO sense) must be represented with a schema
                                that is separate from the base class schema. E.g. to represent the base
                                class zip with the derived class zip I have to use a <union>. The unfortunate
                                consequence is that the base class <-> derived class information is completely
                                lost in the process and can't be retained in a WSDL document. One can argue
                                that the OO hierarchies have nothing in common with XML schemas. However,
                                since SOAP utilizes WSDL for declaring the necessary data types for RPC,
                                the OO hierarchy may be exploited by SOAP-enabled applications that have to
                                deal with object exchange. It appears that the two cannot be mixed, which is
                                unfortunate for SOAP. For example, when I declare a remote procedure in WSDL
                                with a parameter of a base type, then the procedure can never accept a derived
                                type (with additional elements) because of validation violations. A solution
                                is to write overloaded procedure definitions, one for each class. Is that a
                                recommended solution?

                                Question: Can <union> be used to refer to any schema type or only to primitive
                                schema types?

                                - Robert
                              • graham glass
                                hi robert, there is another way to look at this which i think is more useful. you *can* pass a derived schema type to a method which accepts a base schema type
                                Message 15 of 23 , Apr 4, 2002
                                  hi robert,
                                   
                                  there is another way to look at this which i think is more useful.
                                   
                                  you *can* pass a derived schema type to a method which accepts
                                  a base schema type as long as the derived type doesn't contain
                                  a field name which is a duplicate of the base name.
                                   
                                  i bet that 99% of the derived classes don't contain field names
                                  that override those of their base classes, so this approach (with
                                  a noted restriction) seems pragmatic.
                                   
                                  this is the kind of functionality that GLUE and many other SOAP
                                  platforms support.
                                   
                                  cheers,
                                  graham
                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Robert van Engelen [mailto:engelen@...]
                                  Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 4:31 PM
                                  To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] Schema question


                                  Noah,

                                  Thanks. Your comments are highly appreciated.

                                  Based on this I can conclude that the extension mechanism is not suitable
                                  to implement the usual OO base class overriding semantics. Which means that
                                  a derived class (in the OO sense) must be represented with a schema
                                  that is separate from the base class schema. E.g. to represent the base
                                  class zip with the derived class zip I have to use a <union>. The unfortunate
                                  consequence is that the base class <-> derived class information is completely
                                  lost in the process and can't be retained in a WSDL document. One can argue
                                  that the OO hierarchies have nothing in common with XML schemas. However,
                                  since SOAP utilizes WSDL for declaring the necessary data types for RPC,
                                  the OO hierarchy may be exploited by SOAP-enabled applications that have to
                                  deal with object exchange. It appears that the two cannot be mixed, which is
                                  unfortunate for SOAP. For example, when I declare a remote procedure in WSDL
                                  with a parameter of a base type, then the procedure can never accept a derived
                                  type (with additional elements) because of validation violations. A solution
                                  is to write overloaded procedure definitions, one for each class. Is that a
                                  recommended solution?

                                  Question: Can <union> be used to refer to any schema type or only to primitive
                                  schema types?

                                  - Robert


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                                • Noah Mendelsohn/Cambridge/IBM
                                  Exactly the answer I would have given. Schema s type system is at best an 80/20 as a basis for representing this or that existing object system. First of all,
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Apr 5, 2002
                                    Exactly the answer I would have given. Schema's type system is at best an
                                    80/20 as a basis for representing this or that existing object system.
                                    First of all, most programming languages emphasize inheritance of methods
                                    rather than data (though there is no-doubt data inheritance going on as
                                    well, but in many uses of OO only the methods are made public or protected
                                    and are thus part of the overt interface contract.) Anyway, another
                                    glaring hole is that schema makes no attempt at multiple inheritance (a
                                    conscious keep it simple compromise.) Covering redefinition of a
                                    like-named member property is probably below multiple-inheritance in terms
                                    of the number of users who have screamed that they can't effectively
                                    mapped to our system.

                                    ------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    Noah Mendelsohn Voice: 1-617-693-4036
                                    IBM Corporation Fax: 1-617-693-8676
                                    One Rogers Street
                                    Cambridge, MA 02142
                                    ------------------------------------------------------------------







                                    "graham glass" <graham@...>
                                    04/05/02 02:33 AM
                                    Please respond to soapbuilders


                                    To: <soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com>
                                    cc: (bcc: Noah Mendelsohn/Cambridge/IBM)
                                    Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] Schema question

                                    hi robert,

                                    there is another way to look at this which i think is more useful.

                                    you *can* pass a derived schema type to a method which accepts
                                    a base schema type as long as the derived type doesn't contain
                                    a field name which is a duplicate of the base name.

                                    i bet that 99% of the derived classes don't contain field names
                                    that override those of their base classes, so this approach (with
                                    a noted restriction) seems pragmatic.

                                    this is the kind of functionality that GLUE and many other SOAP
                                    platforms support.

                                    cheers,
                                    graham
                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Robert van Engelen [mailto:engelen@...]
                                    Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 4:31 PM
                                    To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] Schema question


                                    Noah,

                                    Thanks. Your comments are highly appreciated.

                                    Based on this I can conclude that the extension mechanism is not suitable
                                    to implement the usual OO base class overriding semantics. Which means
                                    that
                                    a derived class (in the OO sense) must be represented with a schema
                                    that is separate from the base class schema. E.g. to represent the base
                                    class zip with the derived class zip I have to use a <union>. The
                                    unfortunate
                                    consequence is that the base class <-> derived class information is
                                    completely
                                    lost in the process and can't be retained in a WSDL document. One can
                                    argue
                                    that the OO hierarchies have nothing in common with XML schemas. However,
                                    since SOAP utilizes WSDL for declaring the necessary data types for RPC,
                                    the OO hierarchy may be exploited by SOAP-enabled applications that have
                                    to
                                    deal with object exchange. It appears that the two cannot be mixed, which
                                    is
                                    unfortunate for SOAP. For example, when I declare a remote procedure in
                                    WSDL
                                    with a parameter of a base type, then the procedure can never accept a
                                    derived
                                    type (with additional elements) because of validation violations. A
                                    solution
                                    is to write overloaded procedure definitions, one for each class. Is that
                                    a
                                    recommended solution?

                                    Question: Can <union> be used to refer to any schema type or only to
                                    primitive
                                    schema types?

                                    - Robert


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                                    implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.

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                                  • Robert van Engelen
                                    Noah and Graham, Thanks! Please allow me to elaborate on this a little further for sake of clarity and usefulness to the SOAP interop community after which (I
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Apr 5, 2002
                                      Noah and Graham,

                                      Thanks!

                                      Please allow me to elaborate on this a little further for sake of clarity
                                      and usefulness to the SOAP interop community after which (I hope) this
                                      issue can be closed.

                                      gSOAP does support single inheritance and allows a derived class to be passed
                                      to a method that accepts a base class.

                                      However, to generate valid WSDL schemas for the 1% of code that does in fact
                                      override base class fields needs some tweaking by renaming derived class fields
                                      (in the language domain) to unique element names (in the schema domain).
                                      I was just concerned that this renaming might break interoperability
                                      between OO-based SOAP implementations (whatever that means) and I am very
                                      interested to hear how other SOAP implementations handle this. [Note that gSOAP
                                      has a fully automatic mapping from C/C++ data types to SOAP data types.]

                                      As a general solution, a field 'F' of a derived class 'D' can be renamed to an
                                      element '<D.F>' in case 'F' is a field in a base class. Any WSDL importer will
                                      just use this (unique) element and doesn't need to be concerned about
                                      overriding issues.

                                      When gSOAP would import such as schema though, gSOAP could in fact declare a
                                      derived class with field 'F' to recreate the (language-specific) OO hierarchy
                                      with member overriding.

                                      Interestingly enough, this approach allows for both OO implementations and
                                      non-OO implementations to cope with schemas derived by extension. Maybe
                                      I am reinventing the wheel here?

                                      - Cheers, Robert
                                    • Noah Mendelsohn/Cambridge/IBM
                                      Thanks. I would have thought there were other potential member name issues. For example, if your programming language allows variable names to have
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Apr 5, 2002
                                        Thanks. I would have thought there were other potential member name
                                        issues. For example, if your programming language allows variable names
                                        to have characters that are not XML Name characters. In general, I would
                                        expect that for real interop of some particular inheritance model, someone
                                        would have to write a specification saying: "here's how we map member
                                        names that aren't legal XML names, here is how we rename members in the
                                        1% of cases where a derived class does an incompatible override of a base,
                                        etc."

                                        ------------------------------------------------------------------
                                        Noah Mendelsohn Voice: 1-617-693-4036
                                        IBM Corporation Fax: 1-617-693-8676
                                        One Rogers Street
                                        Cambridge, MA 02142
                                        ------------------------------------------------------------------







                                        Robert van Engelen <engelen@...>
                                        04/05/02 11:40 AM
                                        Please respond to soapbuilders


                                        To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                                        cc: (bcc: Noah Mendelsohn/Cambridge/IBM)
                                        Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] Schema question


                                        Noah and Graham,

                                        Thanks!

                                        Please allow me to elaborate on this a little further for sake of clarity
                                        and usefulness to the SOAP interop community after which (I hope) this
                                        issue can be closed.

                                        gSOAP does support single inheritance and allows a derived class to be
                                        passed
                                        to a method that accepts a base class.

                                        However, to generate valid WSDL schemas for the 1% of code that does in
                                        fact
                                        override base class fields needs some tweaking by renaming derived class
                                        fields
                                        (in the language domain) to unique element names (in the schema domain).
                                        I was just concerned that this renaming might break interoperability
                                        between OO-based SOAP implementations (whatever that means) and I am very
                                        interested to hear how other SOAP implementations handle this. [Note that
                                        gSOAP
                                        has a fully automatic mapping from C/C++ data types to SOAP data types.]

                                        As a general solution, a field 'F' of a derived class 'D' can be renamed
                                        to an
                                        element '<D.F>' in case 'F' is a field in a base class. Any WSDL importer
                                        will
                                        just use this (unique) element and doesn't need to be concerned about
                                        overriding issues.

                                        When gSOAP would import such as schema though, gSOAP could in fact declare
                                        a
                                        derived class with field 'F' to recreate the (language-specific) OO
                                        hierarchy
                                        with member overriding.

                                        Interestingly enough, this approach allows for both OO implementations and
                                        non-OO implementations to cope with schemas derived by extension. Maybe
                                        I am reinventing the wheel here?

                                        - Cheers, Robert


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                                        implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.

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                                      • Robert van Engelen
                                        ... That s an accurate observation. I came up with conventions for special characters. For example, element maps to ns2__x_DOT_y_z, assuming that
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Apr 8, 2002
                                          > Thanks. I would have thought there were other potential member name
                                          > issues. For example, if your programming language allows variable names
                                          > to have characters that are not XML Name characters. In general, I would

                                          That's an accurate observation. I came up with conventions for special
                                          characters. For example, element <ns1:x.y-z> maps to ns2__x_DOT_y_z,
                                          assuming that ns1 refers to the same namespace URI as ns2 (light validation).

                                          This way, I can map

                                          class ns__X
                                          { int n;
                                          };
                                          class ns__Y:ns__X
                                          { int n;
                                          int m;
                                          };

                                          to

                                          <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
                                          <schema
                                          xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema"
                                          xmlns:SOAP-ENV="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/envelope/"
                                          xmlns:SOAP-ENC="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/"
                                          targetNamespace="XXXXX"
                                          xmlns:ns="XXXXX">
                                          <complexType name="X">
                                          <sequence>
                                          <element name="n" type="xsd:int" minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="1"/>
                                          </sequence>
                                          </complexType>
                                          <complexType name="Y">
                                          <complexContent>
                                          <extension base="ns:X">
                                          <sequence>
                                          <element name="ns:Y.n" type="xsd:int" minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="1"/>
                                          <element name="m" type="xsd:int" minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="1"/>
                                          </sequence>
                                          </extension>
                                          </complexContent>
                                          </complexType>
                                          </schema>

                                          and vice-versa. I made a change to my schema generator to accomodate
                                          overriding. Is the use of the element name="ns:Y.n" valid in this case?

                                          - Robert
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