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RE: [soapbuilders] Literal, wsdl.exe, and SOAP Arrays

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  • Keith Ballinger
    This is a great question! Short answer: I think it doesn t break the letter of the WSDL spec to do this, but I do feel that it s breaking the spirit. Long
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 31, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      This is a great question!

      Short answer: I think it doesn't break the letter of the WSDL spec to do this, but I do feel that it's breaking the spirit.

      Long answer: array type is an encoding-ism. Since doc/lit is by definition the absense of an encoding, I'm not sure what it would mean, semantically, that derives from SOAP array. doc/lit means that the schema is the be all and end all of the wire format, and the implementation is completely uncoupled from that.

      I get the feeling I don't completely understand what you are trying to do. Could you explain more what you are attempting to describe in the WSDL, and how you want that to map to a wire format?

      Thanks!
      Keith

      -----Original Message-----
      From: sound0 [mailto:brad_taylor@...]
      Sent: Thu 1/31/2002 1:16 PM
      To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
      Cc:
      Subject: [soapbuilders] Literal, wsdl.exe, and SOAP Arrays


      Hello all:
      I have a doc/literal wsdl that defines a type that derives from SOAP
      array (as descibed in WSDL sec 2.2). When I try to consume it using
      the .Net wsdl.exe, I get the following error:

      "Referenced type 'http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/:Array'
      valid only for encodied SOAP."

      As far as I can tell WSDL sec 2.2 doesn't seem to make a distinction
      between the use of SOAP arrays in encoded versus literal styles. Is
      this a known issue with .Net or am I committing some terrible crime
      that I'm unaware of?

      I know .Net supports arrays defined like this in a doc/literal WSDL:

      <s:complexType name="ArrayOfFoo">
      <s:sequence>
      <s:element minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="unbounded" name ="Foo"
      type="foons:Foo" />
      </s:sequence>
      </s:complexType>

      But support for this style seems fairly sparse (eventhough SOAP sec
      5.4.3 gives it a thumbs up).

      Sorry if this is a FAQ, but I checked the archives, MSDN, and ASP.Net
      newsgroups and didn't find anything.

      Thanks in advance for any comments or suggestions.

      -Brad



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    • Matt Long
      My understanding of WSDL Sec 2.2 for encoded types does not require that the schema in types guarantee a complete literal definition of the referenced type,
      Message 2 of 6 , Feb 1, 2002
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        My understanding of WSDL Sec 2.2 for encoded types does not require that the
        schema in 'types' guarantee a complete literal definition of the referenced
        type, that using such type as literal (for SOAP encoded arrays) would not be
        a validating schema for the type itself (assuming generalized convention for
        type="prefix:ArrayOfXXX"). I would also tend to believe that the schema of
        a literal element or type (of which literal 'type' does have some issues)
        must be a validating schema for the element/type. Given the two
        aforementioned items the 'typical' ArrayOfXXX usage for encoded 'type' would
        not guarantee a valid schema for a literal 'type.'...just my opinion.

        Thoughts?

        Thx,

        -Matt Long
        Phalanx Systems, LLC



        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Keith Ballinger [mailto:keithba@...]
        > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 1:38 AM
        > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com; soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] Literal, wsdl.exe, and SOAP Arrays
        >
        >
        > This is a great question!
        >
        > Short answer: I think it doesn't break the letter of the WSDL
        > spec to do this, but I do feel that it's breaking the spirit.
        >
        > Long answer: array type is an encoding-ism. Since doc/lit is
        > by definition the absense of an encoding, I'm not sure what
        > it would mean, semantically, that derives from SOAP array.
        > doc/lit means that the schema is the be all and end all of
        > the wire format, and the implementation is completely
        > uncoupled from that.
        >
        > I get the feeling I don't completely understand what you are
        > trying to do. Could you explain more what you are attempting
        > to describe in the WSDL, and how you want that to map to a
        > wire format?
        >
        > Thanks!
        > Keith
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: sound0 [mailto:brad_taylor@...]
        > Sent: Thu 1/31/2002 1:16 PM
        > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
        > Cc:
        > Subject: [soapbuilders] Literal, wsdl.exe, and SOAP Arrays
        >
        >
        > Hello all:
        > I have a doc/literal wsdl that defines a type that
        > derives from SOAP
        > array (as descibed in WSDL sec 2.2). When I try to
        > consume it using
        > the .Net wsdl.exe, I get the following error:
        >
        > "Referenced type
        > 'http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/:Array'
        > valid only for encodied SOAP."
        >
        > As far as I can tell WSDL sec 2.2 doesn't seem to make
        > a distinction
        > between the use of SOAP arrays in encoded versus
        > literal styles. Is
        > this a known issue with .Net or am I committing some
        > terrible crime
        > that I'm unaware of?
        >
        > I know .Net supports arrays defined like this in a
        > doc/literal WSDL:
        >
        > <s:complexType name="ArrayOfFoo">
        > <s:sequence>
        > <s:element minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="unbounded" name ="Foo"
        > type="foons:Foo" />
        > </s:sequence>
        > </s:complexType>
        >
        > But support for this style seems fairly sparse
        > (eventhough SOAP sec
        > 5.4.3 gives it a thumbs up).
        >
        > Sorry if this is a FAQ, but I checked the archives,
        > MSDN, and ASP.Net
        > newsgroups and didn't find anything.
        >
        > Thanks in advance for any comments or suggestions.
        >
        > -Brad
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        > []
        > <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=153641.1824646.3335993.1261774/D=egroup
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        > 000072>
        >
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        >
        >
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        74/D=egroupmail/S=1705701014:HM/A=889707/rand=438477022>

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      • sound0
        ... to do this, but I do feel that it s breaking the spirit. I d agree since the spec says should . Its more of an interop hassle. ... definition the absense
        Message 3 of 6 , Feb 1, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          > Short answer: I think it doesn't break the letter of the WSDL spec
          to do this, but I do feel that it's breaking the spirit.

          I'd agree since the spec says "should". Its more of an interop
          hassle.

          >
          > Long answer: array type is an encoding-ism. Since doc/lit is by
          definition the absense of an encoding, I'm not sure what it would
          mean, semantically, that derives from SOAP array. doc/lit means that
          the schema is the be all and end all of the wire format, and the
          implementation is completely uncoupled from that.
          >
          But from a doc/literal perspective, can't SOAP array be just another
          type up for grabs? An equal citizen among any types that I might
          define in my schema?

          > I get the feeling I don't completely understand what you are trying
          to do. Could you explain more what you are attempting to describe in
          the WSDL, and how you want that to map to a wire format?

          My problem is basicly this:

          Currently I'm building a SOAP stack for use with our COM library. For
          various reasons, I don't not want to support Sec. 5 completely. So
          the happy medium that I am trying to achieve is similar to the
          default ASP.Net [WebMethod] style which is logically RPC with types
          but uses the doc/literal style.

          At the same time, I'm trying to get some kind of interoperability
          with any Java toolkit to get some free SOAP parsing and automatic
          object-XML serialization (and maybe even code generation!) for a
          potential Java client api to my server. I realize that by going
          doc/literal as opposed to rpc/encoded, my options are limited (or
          nil!). The question is how limited?

          Based on some quick research, the toolkits that I found come close to
          doing what I want (like Jax-RPC, maybe Glue?) all require arrays to
          be encoded using SOAP Array even in doc/literal. I don't have any
          issues with that, but it seems that .Net's "wsdl.exe" and
          VS.Net's "Add Web Reference" do. So in short, for document-literal
          WSDL:
          -.Net wants arrays represented like this (explicitly rejects SOAP
          arrays):
          <s:complexType name="ArrayOfFoo">
          <s:sequence>
          <s:element name="Foo" type="s0:Foo" minOccurs="1" maxOccurs="1" />
          </s:sequence>
          </s:complexType>

          (As an aside, SOAP 5.4.3 does say this is valid serialization,
          but .Net is the only one who seems to support it.)

          -Most everyone else who supports doc/literal and object serialization
          want something like this:
          <s:complexType name="ArrayOfFoo">
          <s:restriction base="soapenc:Array">
          <s:attribute d7p1:arrayType="s0:Foo[]" ref="soapenc:arrayType"
          xmlns:d7p1="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/wsdl/" />
          </s:restriction>
          </s:complexType>

          What do I want? I don't really care. I have a love/hate relationship
          with having to include the size in a SOAP encoded array, but I'll get
          over it.

          Thanks for taking the time to read and understand my problem.

          Thanks,
          Brad


          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: sound0 [mailto:brad_taylor@e...]
          > Sent: Thu 1/31/2002 1:16 PM
          > To: soapbuilders@y...
          > Cc:
          > Subject: [soapbuilders] Literal, wsdl.exe, and SOAP Arrays
          >
          >
          > Hello all:
          > I have a doc/literal wsdl that defines a type that derives
          from SOAP
          > array (as descibed in WSDL sec 2.2). When I try to consume it
          using
          > the .Net wsdl.exe, I get the following error:
          >
          > "Referenced
          type 'http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/:Array'
          > valid only for encodied SOAP."
          >
          > As far as I can tell WSDL sec 2.2 doesn't seem to make a
          distinction
          > between the use of SOAP arrays in encoded versus literal
          styles. Is
          > this a known issue with .Net or am I committing some terrible
          crime
          > that I'm unaware of?
          >
          > I know .Net supports arrays defined like this in a
          doc/literal WSDL:
          >
          > <s:complexType name="ArrayOfFoo">
          > <s:sequence>
          > <s:element minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="unbounded" name ="Foo"
          > type="foons:Foo" />
          > </s:sequence>
          > </s:complexType>
          >
          > But support for this style seems fairly sparse (eventhough
          SOAP sec
          > 5.4.3 gives it a thumbs up).
          >
          > Sorry if this is a FAQ, but I checked the archives, MSDN, and
          ASP.Net
          > newsgroups and didn't find anything.
          >
          > Thanks in advance for any comments or suggestions.
          >
          > -Brad
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          > []
          <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=153641.1824646.3335993.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=17
          05701014:HM/A=889707/R=0/*http://shop.store.yahoo.com/cgi-bin/clink?
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          05701014:HM/A=889707/R=1/1012511775+http://us.rmi.yahoo.com/rmi/http:/
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          url/http://www.gloss.com/module/EsteeLauder/templates/product/prod_mul
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          >
          > _____
          >
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          /rand=438477022>
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          discuss implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-
          topic.
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > soapbuilders-unsubscribe@y...
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        • sound0
          Thank you for the clarification. Its all starting to make some sense! If this is the case, then I m curious why most of the toolkits I ve seen only support
          Message 4 of 6 , Feb 4, 2002
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            Thank you for the clarification. Its all starting to make some sense!

            If this is the case, then I'm curious why most of the toolkits I've
            seen only support SOAP encoded arrays for literal "use" if they are
            actually not valid? Wouldn't this prevent interop with .Net services
            that are document/literal (the default for ASP.NET) and use arrays ?

            If anyone knows of a Java toolkit that supports non-SOAP encoded
            arrays, I'd love to hear about it.

            Thanks again for the responses.


            -Brad


            --- In soapbuilders@y..., "Matt Long" <mlong@P...> wrote:
            > My understanding of WSDL Sec 2.2 for encoded types does not require
            that the
            > schema in 'types' guarantee a complete literal definition of the
            referenced
            > type, that using such type as literal (for SOAP encoded arrays)
            would not be
            > a validating schema for the type itself (assuming generalized
            convention for
            > type="prefix:ArrayOfXXX"). I would also tend to believe that the
            schema of
            > a literal element or type (of which literal 'type' does have some
            issues)
            > must be a validating schema for the element/type. Given the two
            > aforementioned items the 'typical' ArrayOfXXX usage for
            encoded 'type' would
            > not guarantee a valid schema for a literal 'type.'...just my
            opinion.
            >
            > Thoughts?
            >
            > Thx,
            >
            > -Matt Long
            > Phalanx Systems, LLC
            >
            >
            >
            > > -----Original Message-----
            > > From: Keith Ballinger [mailto:keithba@m...]
            > > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 1:38 AM
            > > To: soapbuilders@y...; soapbuilders@y...
            > > Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] Literal, wsdl.exe, and SOAP Arrays
            > >
            > >
            > > This is a great question!
            > >
            > > Short answer: I think it doesn't break the letter of the WSDL
            > > spec to do this, but I do feel that it's breaking the spirit.
            > >
            > > Long answer: array type is an encoding-ism. Since doc/lit is
            > > by definition the absense of an encoding, I'm not sure what
            > > it would mean, semantically, that derives from SOAP array.
            > > doc/lit means that the schema is the be all and end all of
            > > the wire format, and the implementation is completely
            > > uncoupled from that.
            > >
            > > I get the feeling I don't completely understand what you are
            > > trying to do. Could you explain more what you are attempting
            > > to describe in the WSDL, and how you want that to map to a
            > > wire format?
            > >
            > > Thanks!
            > > Keith
            > >
            > > -----Original Message-----
            > > From: sound0 [mailto:brad_taylor@e...]
            > > Sent: Thu 1/31/2002 1:16 PM
            > > To: soapbuilders@y...
            > > Cc:
            > > Subject: [soapbuilders] Literal, wsdl.exe, and SOAP Arrays
            > >
            > >
            > > Hello all:
            > > I have a doc/literal wsdl that defines a type that
            > > derives from SOAP
            > > array (as descibed in WSDL sec 2.2). When I try to
            > > consume it using
            > > the .Net wsdl.exe, I get the following error:
            > >
            > > "Referenced type
            > > 'http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/:Array'
            > > valid only for encodied SOAP."
            > >
            > > As far as I can tell WSDL sec 2.2 doesn't seem to make
            > > a distinction
            > > between the use of SOAP arrays in encoded versus
            > > literal styles. Is
            > > this a known issue with .Net or am I committing some
            > > terrible crime
            > > that I'm unaware of?
            > >
            > > I know .Net supports arrays defined like this in a
            > > doc/literal WSDL:
            > >
            > > <s:complexType name="ArrayOfFoo">
            > > <s:sequence>
            > > <s:element minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="unbounded" name ="Foo"
            > > type="foons:Foo" />
            > > </s:sequence>
            > > </s:complexType>
            > >
            > > But support for this style seems fairly sparse
            > > (eventhough SOAP sec
            > > 5.4.3 gives it a thumbs up).
            > >
            > > Sorry if this is a FAQ, but I checked the archives,
            > > MSDN, and ASP.Net
            > > newsgroups and didn't find anything.
            > >
            > > Thanks in advance for any comments or suggestions.
            > >
            > > -Brad
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            > > []
            > > <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=153641.1824646.3335993.1261774/D=egroup
            > > web/S=1705701014:HM/A=889707/R=0/*http://shop.store.yahoo.com/
            > > cgi-bin/clink?gloss2+shopping:dmad/M=153641.1824646.3335993.12
            > > 61774/D=egroupweb/S=1705701014:HM/A=889707/R=1/1012511775+http
            > ://us.rmi.yahoo.com/rmi/http://www.gloss.com/rmi->
            > framed-url/http://www.gloss.com/module/EsteeLauder/templates/p
            > > roduct/prod_multi.jhtml%3FmCategoryId=cat40207%26mktAdTrack=22
            > > 000072>
            > >
            > > _____
            > >
            > >
            > > <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=153641.1824646.3335993.12617
            > 74/D=egroupmail/S=1705701014:HM/A=889707/rand=438477022>
            >
            > --------------------------------------------------------------
            ---
            > This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to
            > discuss implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-
            topic.
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > soapbuilders-unsubscribe@y...
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            Service
            > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > -----------------------------------------------------------------
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            discuss
            > implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
            >
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          • Daniel Kulp
            Brad, XMLBus supports non-encoded arrays when in literal mode for the operations. I think there were a couple minor bugs in the last version relating to
            Message 5 of 6 , Feb 4, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              Brad,

              XMLBus supports non-encoded arrays when in "literal" mode for the
              operations. I think there were a couple minor bugs in the last version
              relating to literal support, but we should have a new version up in the
              next few hours that fixes them. Keep and eye on www.xmlbus.com.

              Thanks!

              --
              J. Daniel Kulp
              Principal Engineer
              IONA
              END 2 ANYWHERE
              P: 781-902-8727 C: 617-513-4582 F:781-902-8001
              daniel.kulp@...



              On Monday 04 February 2002 05:55, sound0 wrote:
              > Thank you for the clarification. Its all starting to make some sense!
              >
              > If this is the case, then I'm curious why most of the toolkits I've
              > seen only support SOAP encoded arrays for literal "use" if they are
              > actually not valid? Wouldn't this prevent interop with .Net services
              > that are document/literal (the default for ASP.NET) and use arrays ?
              >
              > If anyone knows of a Java toolkit that supports non-SOAP encoded
              > arrays, I'd love to hear about it.
              >
              > Thanks again for the responses.
              >
              >
              > -Brad
              >
              > --- In soapbuilders@y..., "Matt Long" <mlong@P...> wrote:
              > > My understanding of WSDL Sec 2.2 for encoded types does not require
              >
              > that the
              >
              > > schema in 'types' guarantee a complete literal definition of the
              >
              > referenced
              >
              > > type, that using such type as literal (for SOAP encoded arrays)
              >
              > would not be
              >
              > > a validating schema for the type itself (assuming generalized
              >
              > convention for
              >
              > > type="prefix:ArrayOfXXX"). I would also tend to believe that the
              >
              > schema of
              >
              > > a literal element or type (of which literal 'type' does have some
              >
              > issues)
              >
              > > must be a validating schema for the element/type. Given the two
              > > aforementioned items the 'typical' ArrayOfXXX usage for
              >
              > encoded 'type' would
              >
              > > not guarantee a valid schema for a literal 'type.'...just my
              >
              > opinion.
              >
              > > Thoughts?
              > >
              > > Thx,
              > >
              > > -Matt Long
              > > Phalanx Systems, LLC
              > >
              > > > -----Original Message-----
              > > > From: Keith Ballinger [mailto:keithba@m...]
              > > > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 1:38 AM
              > > > To: soapbuilders@y...; soapbuilders@y...
              > > > Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] Literal, wsdl.exe, and SOAP Arrays
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > This is a great question!
              > > >
              > > > Short answer: I think it doesn't break the letter of the WSDL
              > > > spec to do this, but I do feel that it's breaking the spirit.
              > > >
              > > > Long answer: array type is an encoding-ism. Since doc/lit is
              > > > by definition the absense of an encoding, I'm not sure what
              > > > it would mean, semantically, that derives from SOAP array.
              > > > doc/lit means that the schema is the be all and end all of
              > > > the wire format, and the implementation is completely
              > > > uncoupled from that.
              > > >
              > > > I get the feeling I don't completely understand what you are
              > > > trying to do. Could you explain more what you are attempting
              > > > to describe in the WSDL, and how you want that to map to a
              > > > wire format?
              > > >
              > > > Thanks!
              > > > Keith
              > > >
              > > > -----Original Message-----
              > > > From: sound0 [mailto:brad_taylor@e...]
              > > > Sent: Thu 1/31/2002 1:16 PM
              > > > To: soapbuilders@y...
              > > > Cc:
              > > > Subject: [soapbuilders] Literal, wsdl.exe, and SOAP Arrays
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Hello all:
              > > > I have a doc/literal wsdl that defines a type that
              > > > derives from SOAP
              > > > array (as descibed in WSDL sec 2.2). When I try to
              > > > consume it using
              > > > the .Net wsdl.exe, I get the following error:
              > > >
              > > > "Referenced type
              > > > 'http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/:Array'
              > > > valid only for encodied SOAP."
              > > >
              > > > As far as I can tell WSDL sec 2.2 doesn't seem to make
              > > > a distinction
              > > > between the use of SOAP arrays in encoded versus
              > > > literal styles. Is
              > > > this a known issue with .Net or am I committing some
              > > > terrible crime
              > > > that I'm unaware of?
              > > >
              > > > I know .Net supports arrays defined like this in a
              > > > doc/literal WSDL:
              > > >
              > > > <s:complexType name="ArrayOfFoo">
              > > > <s:sequence>
              > > > <s:element minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="unbounded" name ="Foo"
              > > > type="foons:Foo" />
              > > > </s:sequence>
              > > > </s:complexType>
              > > >
              > > > But support for this style seems fairly sparse
              > > > (eventhough SOAP sec
              > > > 5.4.3 gives it a thumbs up).
              > > >
              > > > Sorry if this is a FAQ, but I checked the archives,
              > > > MSDN, and ASP.Net
              > > > newsgroups and didn't find anything.
              > > >
              > > > Thanks in advance for any comments or suggestions.
              > > >
              > > > -Brad
              > > >
              > > >
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