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RE: [soapbuilders] id / href

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  • Manish Balsara
    Paul The definition of independent element does not indicate that it has to be after the body. All it says is An independent element is any element appearing
    Message 1 of 20 , Apr 5, 2001
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      Paul

      The definition of independent element does not indicate that it has to be
      after the body. All it says is "An independent element is any element
      appearing at the top level of a serialization". Wouldn't it mean that I
      should be able to serialize it inside the body as the top level element?

      What you suggesting is interesting, because I had always wondered,
      what can one one put after the Body element. Now I know.

      manish

      On Thu, 5 Apr 2001, Paul Kulchenko wrote:

      > <html><body>
      > <tt>
      > Hi, Simon!<BR>
      > <BR>
      > Two observations. First, I believe that spec is about coding<BR>
      > multirefs as INDEPENDENT elements and in my understanding it means to<BR>
      > put them AFTER the Body, not inside (it was several long discussions<BR>
      > and that is my conclusion on that). So, INSIDE the Body you may also<BR>
      > have OTHER elements than method entry, but they'll go AFTER, right?<BR>
      > <BR>
      > Also, spec says something that Headers should be self-sufficient, for<BR>
      > me that means that if you have shared references between headers and<BR>
      > Body (quite possible), they should be encoded either in-place inside<BR>
      > the Header, or, again, on top level, so right after the body, only<BR>
      > then you can reach them without parsing Body itself. <BR>
      > <BR>
      > I think it should address your concerns, shouldn't it? <BR>
      > <BR>
      > Best wishes, Paul.<BR>
      > <BR>
      > --- Simon Fell <sfell@...> wrote:<BR>
      > > This is from the original email that kicked this whole thread off<BR>
      > > <BR>
      > > <soap:Body<BR>
      > > soap:encodingStyle="<a href="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/</a>"><BR>
      > >     <struct id="1"><BR>
      > >       <varInt xmlns="">634</varInt><BR>
      > >       <varString xmlns="">en stringare</varString><BR>
      > >       <varFloat xmlns="">87.5</varFloat><BR>
      > >     </struct><BR>
      > >     <echoStructResponse xmlns="<a href="http://soapinterop.org/">http://soapinterop.org/</a>"><BR>
      > >       <Return href="#1" /><BR>
      > >     </echoStructResponse> <BR>
      > > </soap:Body><BR>
      > > <BR>
      > > how do you know which element under the Body element is the return<BR>
      > > struct<BR>
      > > (echoStructResponse in this case), and not just some independent<BR>
      > > serialization (like struct) ? You can't rely on the name (without<BR>
      > > being told<BR>
      > > it via some OOB mechanism), and you can't rely on the position. if<BR>
      > > the root<BR>
      > > attribute was required, then that would help (as there'd be only<BR>
      > > one element<BR>
      > > that was marked as a true root)<BR>
      > > <BR>
      > > Cheers<BR>
      > > Simon<BR>
      > > <BR>
      > > -----Original Message-----<BR>
      > > From: Jake Savin [mailto:jake@...]<BR>
      > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:13 PM<BR>
      > > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com<BR>
      > > Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] id / href<BR>
      > > <BR>
      > > <BR>
      > > I'm having a little trouble visualizing this problem.<BR>
      > > <BR>
      > > Simon, could you post an example XML fragment which demonstrates<BR>
      > > the<BR>
      > > problem?<BR>
      > > <BR>
      > > Thanks, -Jake<BR>
      > > <BR>
      > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor<BR>
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      > > soapbuilders-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<BR>
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    • Paul Kulchenko
      Hi, Simon! Two observations. First, I believe that spec is about coding multirefs as INDEPENDENT elements and in my understanding it means to put them AFTER
      Message 2 of 20 , Apr 5, 2001
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        Hi, Simon!

        Two observations. First, I believe that spec is about coding
        multirefs as INDEPENDENT elements and in my understanding it means to
        put them AFTER the Body, not inside (it was several long discussions
        and that is my conclusion on that). So, INSIDE the Body you may also
        have OTHER elements than method entry, but they'll go AFTER, right?

        Also, spec says something that Headers should be self-sufficient, for
        me that means that if you have shared references between headers and
        Body (quite possible), they should be encoded either in-place inside
        the Header, or, again, on top level, so right after the body, only
        then you can reach them without parsing Body itself.

        I think it should address your concerns, shouldn't it?

        Best wishes, Paul.

        --- Simon Fell <sfell@...> wrote:
        > This is from the original email that kicked this whole thread off
        >
        > <soap:Body
        > soap:encodingStyle="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
        > <struct id="1">
        > <varInt xmlns="">634</varInt>
        > <varString xmlns="">en stringare</varString>
        > <varFloat xmlns="">87.5</varFloat>
        > </struct>
        > <echoStructResponse xmlns="http://soapinterop.org/">
        > <Return href="#1" />
        > </echoStructResponse>
        > </soap:Body>
        >
        > how do you know which element under the Body element is the return
        > struct
        > (echoStructResponse in this case), and not just some independent
        > serialization (like struct) ? You can't rely on the name (without
        > being told
        > it via some OOB mechanism), and you can't rely on the position. if
        > the root
        > attribute was required, then that would help (as there'd be only
        > one element
        > that was marked as a true root)
        >
        > Cheers
        > Simon
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Jake Savin [mailto:jake@...]
        > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:13 PM
        > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] id / href
        >
        >
        > I'm having a little trouble visualizing this problem.
        >
        > Simon, could you post an example XML fragment which demonstrates
        > the
        > problem?
        >
        > Thanks, -Jake
        >
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        >
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        >


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      • Simon Fell
        that s certainly logical, but I saw nothing in the spec that mandates that. Cheers Simon ... From: Paul Kulchenko [mailto:paulclinger@yahoo.com] Sent:
        Message 3 of 20 , Apr 5, 2001
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          that's certainly logical, but I saw nothing in the spec that mandates that.

          Cheers
          Simon

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Paul Kulchenko [mailto:paulclinger@...]
          Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:41 PM
          To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] id / href


          Hi, Simon!

          Two observations. First, I believe that spec is about coding
          multirefs as INDEPENDENT elements and in my understanding it means to
          put them AFTER the Body, not inside (it was several long discussions
          and that is my conclusion on that). So, INSIDE the Body you may also
          have OTHER elements than method entry, but they'll go AFTER, right?

          Also, spec says something that Headers should be self-sufficient, for
          me that means that if you have shared references between headers and
          Body (quite possible), they should be encoded either in-place inside
          the Header, or, again, on top level, so right after the body, only
          then you can reach them without parsing Body itself.

          I think it should address your concerns, shouldn't it?

          Best wishes, Paul.

          --- Simon Fell <sfell@...> wrote:
          > This is from the original email that kicked this whole thread off
          >
          > <soap:Body
          > soap:encodingStyle="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
          > <struct id="1">
          > <varInt xmlns="">634</varInt>
          > <varString xmlns="">en stringare</varString>
          > <varFloat xmlns="">87.5</varFloat>
          > </struct>
          > <echoStructResponse xmlns="http://soapinterop.org/">
          > <Return href="#1" />
          > </echoStructResponse>
          > </soap:Body>
          >
          > how do you know which element under the Body element is the return
          > struct
          > (echoStructResponse in this case), and not just some independent
          > serialization (like struct) ? You can't rely on the name (without
          > being told
          > it via some OOB mechanism), and you can't rely on the position. if
          > the root
          > attribute was required, then that would help (as there'd be only
          > one element
          > that was marked as a true root)
          >
          > Cheers
          > Simon
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Jake Savin [mailto:jake@...]
          > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:13 PM
          > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] id / href
          >
          >
          > I'm having a little trouble visualizing this problem.
          >
          > Simon, could you post an example XML fragment which demonstrates
          > the
          > problem?
          >
          > Thanks, -Jake
          >
          > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          >
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          > soapbuilders-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
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          >
          >


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        • Paul Kulchenko
          Hi, Simon! 5.1 11.Syntactically, an element may be independent or embedded . An independent element is any element appearing at the top level of
          Message 4 of 20 , Apr 5, 2001
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            Hi, Simon!

            5.1
            11.Syntactically, an element may be "independent" or "embedded". An
            independent element is any element appearing at the top level of
            serialization.

            Top level of serialization is inside Envelope (it cannot be higher)
            and since the PLACE of Body element is defined by spec, all other
            elements we can place only AFTER it.

            Best wishes, Paul.

            --- Simon Fell <sfell@...> wrote:
            > that's certainly logical, but I saw nothing in the spec that
            > mandates that.
            >
            > Cheers
            > Simon
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Paul Kulchenko [mailto:paulclinger@...]
            > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:41 PM
            > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] id / href
            >
            >
            > Hi, Simon!
            >
            > Two observations. First, I believe that spec is about coding
            > multirefs as INDEPENDENT elements and in my understanding it means
            > to
            > put them AFTER the Body, not inside (it was several long
            > discussions
            > and that is my conclusion on that). So, INSIDE the Body you may
            > also
            > have OTHER elements than method entry, but they'll go AFTER, right?
            >
            > Also, spec says something that Headers should be self-sufficient,
            > for
            > me that means that if you have shared references between headers
            > and
            > Body (quite possible), they should be encoded either in-place
            > inside
            > the Header, or, again, on top level, so right after the body, only
            > then you can reach them without parsing Body itself.
            >
            > I think it should address your concerns, shouldn't it?
            >
            > Best wishes, Paul.
            >
            > --- Simon Fell <sfell@...> wrote:
            > > This is from the original email that kicked this whole thread off
            > >
            > > <soap:Body
            > > soap:encodingStyle="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
            > > <struct id="1">
            > > <varInt xmlns="">634</varInt>
            > > <varString xmlns="">en stringare</varString>
            > > <varFloat xmlns="">87.5</varFloat>
            > > </struct>
            > > <echoStructResponse xmlns="http://soapinterop.org/">
            > > <Return href="#1" />
            > > </echoStructResponse>
            > > </soap:Body>
            > >
            > > how do you know which element under the Body element is the
            > return
            > > struct
            > > (echoStructResponse in this case), and not just some independent
            > > serialization (like struct) ? You can't rely on the name (without
            > > being told
            > > it via some OOB mechanism), and you can't rely on the position.
            > if
            > > the root
            > > attribute was required, then that would help (as there'd be only
            > > one element
            > > that was marked as a true root)
            > >
            > > Cheers
            > > Simon
            > >
            > > -----Original Message-----
            > > From: Jake Savin [mailto:jake@...]
            > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:13 PM
            > > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
            > > Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] id / href
            > >
            > >
            > > I'm having a little trouble visualizing this problem.
            > >
            > > Simon, could you post an example XML fragment which demonstrates
            > > the
            > > problem?
            > >
            > > Thanks, -Jake
            > >
            > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            > >
            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > soapbuilders-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >
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            > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
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          • Doug Davis
            yup, so isn t: hello howdy legal? If so, what
            Message 5 of 20 , Apr 5, 2001
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              yup, so isn't:
              <SOAP-ENV:Body>
              <a:mypart xmlns:a="some-uri">hello</a:mypart>
              <a:mypart xmlns:a="some-uri">howdy</a:mypart>
              </SOAP-ENV:Body>
              legal? If so, what do you do with it?
              -Dug


              Manish Balsara <manishb@...> on 04/05/2001 12:04:07 PM

              Please respond to soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com

              To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
              cc:
              Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] id / href



              Paul

              The definition of independent element does not indicate that it has to be
              after the body. All it says is "An independent element is any element
              appearing at the top level of a serialization". Wouldn't it mean that I
              should be able to serialize it inside the body as the top level element?

              What you suggesting is interesting, because I had always wondered,
              what can one one put after the Body element. Now I know.

              manish

              On Thu, 5 Apr 2001, Paul Kulchenko wrote:

              > <html><body>
              > <tt>
              > Hi, Simon!<BR>
              > <BR>
              > Two observations. First, I believe that spec is about coding<BR>
              > multirefs as INDEPENDENT elements and in my understanding it means to<BR>
              > put them AFTER the Body, not inside (it was several long discussions<BR>
              > and that is my conclusion on that). So, INSIDE the Body you may also<BR>
              > have OTHER elements than method entry, but they'll go AFTER, right?<BR>
              > <BR>
              > Also, spec says something that Headers should be self-sufficient, for<BR>
              > me that means that if you have shared references between headers and<BR>
              > Body (quite possible), they should be encoded either in-place inside<BR>
              > the Header, or, again, on top level, so right after the body, only<BR>
              > then you can reach them without parsing Body itself. <BR>
              > <BR>
              > I think it should address your concerns, shouldn't it? <BR>
              > <BR>
              > Best wishes, Paul.<BR>
              > <BR>
              > --- Simon Fell <sfell@...> wrote:<BR>
              > > This is from the original email that kicked this whole thread
              off<BR>
              > > <BR>
              > > <soap:Body<BR>
              > > soap:encodingStyle="<a href="
              http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
              http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/</a>"><BR>
              > >     <struct id="1"><BR>
              > >       <varInt xmlns=""
              >634</varInt><BR>
              > >       <varString xmlns=""
              >en stringare</varString><BR>
              > >       <varFloat xmlns=""
              >87.5</varFloat><BR>
              > >     </struct><BR>
              > >     <echoStructResponse xmlns="<a href="
              http://soapinterop.org/">http://soapinterop.org/</a>"><BR>
              > >       <Return href="#1"
              /><BR>
              > >     </echoStructResponse> <BR>
              > > </soap:Body><BR>
              > > <BR>
              > > how do you know which element under the Body element is the
              return<BR>
              > > struct<BR>
              > > (echoStructResponse in this case), and not just some independent<BR>
              > > serialization (like struct) ? You can't rely on the name
              (without<BR>
              > > being told<BR>
              > > it via some OOB mechanism), and you can't rely on the position.
              if<BR>
              > > the root<BR>
              > > attribute was required, then that would help (as there'd be only<BR>
              > > one element<BR>
              > > that was marked as a true root)<BR>
              > > <BR>
              > > Cheers<BR>
              > > Simon<BR>
              > > <BR>
              > > -----Original Message-----<BR>
              > > From: Jake Savin [mailto:jake@...]<BR>
              > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:13 PM<BR>
              > > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com<BR>
              > > Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] id / href<BR>
              > > <BR>
              > > <BR>
              > > I'm having a little trouble visualizing this problem.<BR>
              > > <BR>
              > > Simon, could you post an example XML fragment which demonstrates<BR>
              > > the<BR>
              > > problem?<BR>
              > > <BR>
              > > Thanks, -Jake<BR>
              > > <BR>
              > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor<BR>
              > > <BR>
              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<BR>
              > > soapbuilders-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<BR>
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            • Doug Davis
              Paul, Body elements have to go after headers but it doesn t specify the order of the body elements (I think). So in your text below when you said AFTER it
              Message 6 of 20 , Apr 5, 2001
              • 0 Attachment
                Paul,
                Body elements have to go after headers but it doesn't specify
                the order of the body elements (I think). So in your text below when
                you said "AFTER it" that's what everyone has been assuming but
                I don't think it actually says that in the spec.
                -Dug


                Paul Kulchenko <paulclinger@...> on 04/05/2001 04:59:50 PM

                Please respond to soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com

                To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                cc:
                Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] id / href



                Hi, Simon!

                5.1
                11.Syntactically, an element may be "independent" or "embedded". An
                independent element is any element appearing at the top level of
                serialization.

                Top level of serialization is inside Envelope (it cannot be higher)
                and since the PLACE of Body element is defined by spec, all other
                elements we can place only AFTER it.

                Best wishes, Paul.

                --- Simon Fell <sfell@...> wrote:
                > that's certainly logical, but I saw nothing in the spec that
                > mandates that.
                >
                > Cheers
                > Simon
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Paul Kulchenko [mailto:paulclinger@...]
                > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:41 PM
                > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] id / href
                >
                >
                > Hi, Simon!
                >
                > Two observations. First, I believe that spec is about coding
                > multirefs as INDEPENDENT elements and in my understanding it means
                > to
                > put them AFTER the Body, not inside (it was several long
                > discussions
                > and that is my conclusion on that). So, INSIDE the Body you may
                > also
                > have OTHER elements than method entry, but they'll go AFTER, right?
                >
                > Also, spec says something that Headers should be self-sufficient,
                > for
                > me that means that if you have shared references between headers
                > and
                > Body (quite possible), they should be encoded either in-place
                > inside
                > the Header, or, again, on top level, so right after the body, only
                > then you can reach them without parsing Body itself.
                >
                > I think it should address your concerns, shouldn't it?
                >
                > Best wishes, Paul.
                >
                > --- Simon Fell <sfell@...> wrote:
                > > This is from the original email that kicked this whole thread off
                > >
                > > <soap:Body
                > > soap:encodingStyle="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
                > >     <struct id="1">
                > >       <varInt xmlns="">634</varInt>
                > >       <varString xmlns="">en stringare</varString>
                > >       <varFloat xmlns="">87.5</varFloat>
                > >     </struct>
                > >     <echoStructResponse xmlns="http://soapinterop.org/">
                > >       <Return href="#1" />
                > >     </echoStructResponse>
                > > </soap:Body>
                > >
                > > how do you know which element under the Body element is the
                > return
                > > struct
                > > (echoStructResponse in this case), and not just some independent
                > > serialization (like struct) ? You can't rely on the name (without
                > > being told
                > > it via some OOB mechanism), and you can't rely on the position.
                > if
                > > the root
                > > attribute was required, then that would help (as there'd be only
                > > one element
                > > that was marked as a true root)
                > >
                > > Cheers
                > > Simon
                > >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: Jake Savin [mailto:jake@...]
                > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:13 PM
                > > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                > > Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] id / href
                > >
                > >
                > > I'm having a little trouble visualizing this problem.
                > >
                > > Simon, could you post an example XML fragment which demonstrates
                > > the
                > > problem?
                > >
                > > Thanks, -Jake
                > >
                > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                > >
                > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > soapbuilders-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > >
                > >
                > >
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                > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
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              • Paul Kulchenko
                Hi, Doug! It IS legal (actually THAT s the place where SOAP::Lite puts multirefs), but spec is clear on that: 4. SOAP Envelope 3. Body The element MUST be
                Message 7 of 20 , Apr 5, 2001
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi, Doug!

                  It IS legal (actually THAT's the place where SOAP::Lite puts
                  multirefs), but spec is clear on that:

                  4. SOAP Envelope
                  3. Body
                  The element MUST be present ....
                  It MUST directly follow the SOAP Header element if present. Otherwise
                  it MUST be the FIRST immediate child element of the SOAP Envelope
                  element.

                  No doubts imho.

                  As for "top level of serialization" in my opinion the ONLY place can
                  be titled like that is highest level where you can put the element
                  and since root can be only one, top level is immediate child of the
                  root element. Thoughts?

                  At least it simplifies the situation :))

                  Best wishes, Paul.

                  --- Doug Davis <dug@...> wrote:
                  > yup, so isn't:
                  > <SOAP-ENV:Body>
                  > <a:mypart xmlns:a="some-uri">hello</a:mypart>
                  > <a:mypart xmlns:a="some-uri">howdy</a:mypart>
                  > </SOAP-ENV:Body>
                  > legal? If so, what do you do with it?
                  > -Dug
                  >
                  >
                  > Manish Balsara <manishb@...> on 04/05/2001 12:04:07 PM
                  >
                  > Please respond to soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                  > cc:
                  > Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] id / href
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Paul
                  >
                  > The definition of independent element does not indicate that it has
                  > to be
                  > after the body. All it says is "An independent element is any
                  > element
                  > appearing at the top level of a serialization". Wouldn't it mean
                  > that I
                  > should be able to serialize it inside the body as the top level
                  > element?
                  >
                  > What you suggesting is interesting, because I had always wondered,
                  > what can one one put after the Body element. Now I know.
                  >
                  > manish
                  >
                  > On Thu, 5 Apr 2001, Paul Kulchenko wrote:
                  >
                  > > <html><body>
                  > > <tt>
                  > > Hi, Simon!<BR>
                  > > <BR>
                  > > Two observations. First, I believe that spec is about coding<BR>
                  > > multirefs as INDEPENDENT elements and in my understanding it
                  > means to<BR>
                  > > put them AFTER the Body, not inside (it was several long
                  > discussions<BR>
                  > > and that is my conclusion on that). So, INSIDE the Body you may
                  > also<BR>
                  > > have OTHER elements than method entry, but they'll go AFTER,
                  > right?<BR>
                  > > <BR>
                  > > Also, spec says something that Headers should be self-sufficient,
                  > for<BR>
                  > > me that means that if you have shared references between headers
                  > and<BR>
                  > > Body (quite possible), they should be encoded either in-place
                  > inside<BR>
                  > > the Header, or, again, on top level, so right after the body,
                  > only<BR>
                  > > then you can reach them without parsing Body itself. <BR>
                  > > <BR>
                  > > I think it should address your concerns, shouldn't it? <BR>
                  > > <BR>
                  > > Best wishes, Paul.<BR>
                  > > <BR>
                  > > --- Simon Fell <sfell@...> wrote:<BR>
                  > > > This is from the original email that kicked this whole
                  > thread
                  > off<BR>
                  > > > <BR>
                  > > > <soap:Body<BR>
                  > > > soap:encodingStyle="<a href="
                  > http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
                  > http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/</a>"><BR>
                  > > >     <struct id="1"><BR>
                  > > >       <varInt
                  > xmlns=""
                  > >634</varInt><BR>
                  > > >       <varString
                  > xmlns=""
                  > >en stringare</varString><BR>
                  > > >       <varFloat
                  > xmlns=""
                  > >87.5</varFloat><BR>
                  > > >     </struct><BR>
                  > > >     <echoStructResponse
                  > xmlns="<a href="
                  > http://soapinterop.org/">http://soapinterop.org/</a>"><BR>
                  > > >       <Return
                  > href="#1"
                  > /><BR>
                  > > >     </echoStructResponse> <BR>
                  > > > </soap:Body><BR>
                  > > > <BR>
                  > > > how do you know which element under the Body element is the
                  > return<BR>
                  > > > struct<BR>
                  > > > (echoStructResponse in this case), and not just some
                  > independent<BR>
                  > > > serialization (like struct) ? You can't rely on the name
                  > (without<BR>
                  > > > being told<BR>
                  > > > it via some OOB mechanism), and you can't rely on the
                  > position.
                  > if<BR>
                  > > > the root<BR>
                  > > > attribute was required, then that would help (as there'd be
                  > only<BR>
                  > > > one element<BR>
                  > > > that was marked as a true root)<BR>
                  > > > <BR>
                  > > > Cheers<BR>
                  > > > Simon<BR>
                  > > > <BR>
                  > > > -----Original Message-----<BR>
                  > > > From: Jake Savin [mailto:jake@...]<BR>
                  > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:13 PM<BR>
                  > > > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com<BR>
                  > > > Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] id / href<BR>
                  > > > <BR>
                  > > > <BR>
                  > > > I'm having a little trouble visualizing this problem.<BR>
                  > > > <BR>
                  > > > Simon, could you post an example XML fragment which
                  > demonstrates<BR>
                  > > > the<BR>
                  > > > problem?<BR>
                  > > > <BR>
                  > > > Thanks, -Jake<BR>
                  > > > <BR>
                  > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor<BR>
                  > > > <BR>
                  > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<BR>
                  > > > soapbuilders-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<BR>
                  > > > <BR>
                  > > >  <BR>
                  > > > <BR>
                  > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to<BR>
                  > > > <a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">
                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/</a> <BR>
                  > > > <BR>
                  > > > <BR>
                  > > <BR>
                  > > <BR>
                  > > __________________________________________________<BR>
                  > > Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
                  > > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>
                  > > <a
                  >
                  href="http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/">http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
                  > </a><BR>
                  > > </tt>
                  > >
                  > > <br>
                  > >
                  > > <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
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                  > > <td align=center><font size="-1" color=#003399><b>Yahoo! Groups
                  > Sponsor</b></font></td>
                  > > </tr>
                  > > <tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF>
                  > > <td width=470><a href="
                  >
                  http://rd.yahoo.com/M=162801.1342233.2934637.1279955/D=egroupmail/S=1700701014:N/A=599082/*http://www.knowledgestorm.com/jump_white.html?c=Yahoo&n=eLert_ComputersInternet_CommNetworking_WhiteGridOptions&t=ad
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                  > > </tr>
                  > > <tr><td><img alt="" width=1 height=1 src="
                  >
                  http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=162801.1342233.2934637.1279955/D=egroupmail/S=1700701014:N/A=599082/rand=442387272
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                  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<BR>
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                • Doug Davis
                  I wasn t clear (although I m glad you said that it is legal) - what do you do with that msg? I left out any multi-refs on purpose - if your server receives
                  Message 8 of 20 , Apr 5, 2001
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I wasn't clear (although I'm glad you said that
                    it is legal) - what do you do with that msg? I left
                    out any multi-refs on purpose - if your server
                    receives that body what are you going to do with
                    it? Process just the first as 'the' message and
                    since there aren't any href's pointing to the 2nd
                    one it will be ignored? Or should you process
                    both independently? Or do you take the last one
                    as 'the' message and ignore the 1st? My point is
                    there is nothing that says "this" is the main
                    body element - so what do you do when there is no
                    clear winner? The spec doesn't specify order
                    of body elements and even with href's I would
                    claim that there still isn't a clear "main" one
                    (one of the holes in the spec).
                    -Dug


                    Paul Kulchenko <paulclinger@...> on 04/05/2001 05:14:43 PM

                    Please respond to soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com

                    To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                    cc:
                    Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] id / href



                    Hi, Doug!

                    It IS legal (actually THAT's the place where SOAP::Lite puts
                    multirefs), but spec is clear on that:

                    4. SOAP Envelope
                    3. Body
                    The element MUST be present ....
                    It MUST directly follow the SOAP Header element if present. Otherwise
                    it MUST be the FIRST immediate child element of the SOAP Envelope
                    element.

                    No doubts imho.

                    As for "top level of serialization" in my opinion the ONLY place can
                    be titled like that is highest level where you can put the element
                    and since root can be only one, top level is immediate child of the
                    root element. Thoughts?

                    At least it simplifies the situation :))

                    Best wishes, Paul.

                    --- Doug Davis <dug@...> wrote:
                    > yup, so isn't:
                    > <SOAP-ENV:Body>
                    >   <a:mypart xmlns:a="some-uri">hello</a:mypart>
                    >   <a:mypart xmlns:a="some-uri">howdy</a:mypart>
                    > </SOAP-ENV:Body>
                    > legal?  If so, what do you do with it?
                    > -Dug
                    >
                    >
                    > Manish Balsara <manishb@...> on 04/05/2001 12:04:07 PM
                    >
                    > Please respond to soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > To:   soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                    > cc:
                    > Subject:  RE: [soapbuilders] id / href
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >  Paul
                    >
                    > The definition of independent element does not indicate that it has
                    > to be
                    > after the body. All it says is "An independent element is any
                    > element
                    > appearing at the top level of a serialization". Wouldn't it mean
                    > that I
                    > should be able to serialize it inside the body as the top level
                    > element?
                    >
                    > What you suggesting is interesting, because I had always wondered,
                    > what can one one put after the Body element. Now I know.
                    >
                    > manish
                    >
                    > On Thu, 5 Apr 2001, Paul Kulchenko wrote:
                    >
                    > > <html><body>
                    > > <tt>
                    > > Hi, Simon!<BR>
                    > > <BR>
                    > > Two observations. First, I believe that spec is about coding<BR>
                    > > multirefs as INDEPENDENT elements and in my understanding it
                    > means to<BR>
                    > > put them AFTER the Body, not inside (it was several long
                    > discussions<BR>
                    > > and that is my conclusion on that). So, INSIDE the Body you may
                    > also<BR>
                    > > have OTHER elements than method entry, but they'll go AFTER,
                    > right?<BR>
                    > > <BR>
                    > > Also, spec says something that Headers should be self-sufficient,
                    > for<BR>
                    > > me that means that if you have shared references between headers
                    > and<BR>
                    > > Body (quite possible), they should be encoded either in-place
                    > inside<BR>
                    > > the Header, or, again, on top level, so right after the body,
                    > only<BR>
                    > > then you can reach them without parsing Body itself. <BR>
                    > > <BR>
                    > > I think it should address your concerns, shouldn't it? <BR>
                    > > <BR>
                    > > Best wishes, Paul.<BR>
                    > > <BR>
                    > > --- Simon Fell <sfell@...> wrote:<BR>
                    > > > This is from the original email that kicked this whole
                    > thread
                    > off<BR>
                    > > > <BR>
                    > > > <soap:Body<BR>
                    > > > soap:encodingStyle="<a href="
                    > http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
                    > http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/</a>"><BR>
                    > > >     <struct id="1"><BR>
                    > > >       <varInt
                    > xmlns=""
                    > >634</varInt><BR>
                    > > >       <varString
                    > xmlns=""
                    > >en stringare</varString><BR>
                    > > >       <varFloat
                    > xmlns=""
                    > >87.5</varFloat><BR>
                    > > >     </struct><BR>
                    > > >     <echoStructResponse
                    > xmlns="<a href="
                    > http://soapinterop.org/">http://soapinterop.org/</a>"><BR>
                    > > >       <Return
                    > href="#1"
                    > /><BR>
                    > > >     </echoStructResponse> <BR>
                    > > > </soap:Body><BR>
                    > > > <BR>
                    > > > how do you know which element under the Body element is the
                    > return<BR>
                    > > > struct<BR>
                    > > > (echoStructResponse in this case), and not just some
                    > independent<BR>
                    > > > serialization (like struct) ? You can't rely on the name
                    > (without<BR>
                    > > > being told<BR>
                    > > > it via some OOB mechanism), and you can't rely on the
                    > position.
                    > if<BR>
                    > > > the root<BR>
                    > > > attribute was required, then that would help (as there'd be
                    > only<BR>
                    > > > one element<BR>
                    > > > that was marked as a true root)<BR>
                    > > > <BR>
                    > > > Cheers<BR>
                    > > > Simon<BR>
                    > > > <BR>
                    > > > -----Original Message-----<BR>
                    > > > From: Jake Savin [mailto:jake@...]<BR>
                    > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:13 PM<BR>
                    > > > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com<BR>
                    > > > Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] id / href<BR>
                    > > > <BR>
                    > > > <BR>
                    > > > I'm having a little trouble visualizing this problem.<BR>
                    > > > <BR>
                    > > > Simon, could you post an example XML fragment which
                    > demonstrates<BR>
                    > > > the<BR>
                    > > > problem?<BR>
                    > > > <BR>
                    > > > Thanks, -Jake<BR>
                    > > > <BR>
                    > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor<BR>
                    > > > <BR>
                    > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<BR>
                    > > > soapbuilders-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<BR>
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                    > > >  <BR>
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                    > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to<BR>
                    > > > <a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">
                    > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/</a> <BR>
                    > > > <BR>
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                    > > __________________________________________________<BR>
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                    > > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. <BR>
                    > > <a
                    >
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                  • Paul Kulchenko
                    Hi, Doug! From second though it s NOT legal for RPC. As soon as method invocation is modelled as struct and struct disallows accessors with the same names this
                    Message 9 of 20 , Apr 5, 2001
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi, Doug!

                      From second though it's NOT legal for RPC. As soon as method
                      invocation is modelled as struct and struct disallows accessors with
                      the same names this situation is unlegal.

                      It is creates similar problem for non-RPC calls:

                      > > <SOAP-ENV:Body>
                      > > <a:mypart xmlns:a="some-uri">hello</a:mypart>
                      > > <a:mypart xmlns:a="some-uri">howdy</a:mypart>
                      > > </SOAP-ENV:Body>

                      How will you pass it to application if it's literal encoding? In RPC
                      case I'll use the first one and ignore the second. Should I fire
                      error? Probably.

                      Best wishes, Paul.

                      --- Doug Davis <dug@...> wrote:
                      > I wasn't clear (although I'm glad you said that
                      > it is legal) - what do you do with that msg? I left
                      > out any multi-refs on purpose - if your server
                      > receives that body what are you going to do with
                      > it? Process just the first as 'the' message and
                      > since there aren't any href's pointing to the 2nd
                      > one it will be ignored? Or should you process
                      > both independently? Or do you take the last one
                      > as 'the' message and ignore the 1st? My point is
                      > there is nothing that says "this" is the main
                      > body element - so what do you do when there is no
                      > clear winner? The spec doesn't specify order
                      > of body elements and even with href's I would
                      > claim that there still isn't a clear "main" one
                      > (one of the holes in the spec).
                      > -Dug
                      >
                      >
                      > Paul Kulchenko <paulclinger@...> on 04/05/2001 05:14:43 PM
                      >
                      > Please respond to soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                      > cc:
                      > Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] id / href
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi, Doug!
                      >
                      > It IS legal (actually THAT's the place where SOAP::Lite puts
                      > multirefs), but spec is clear on that:
                      >
                      > 4. SOAP Envelope
                      > 3. Body
                      > The element MUST be present ....
                      > It MUST directly follow the SOAP Header element if present.
                      > Otherwise
                      > it MUST be the FIRST immediate child element of the SOAP Envelope
                      > element.
                      >
                      > No doubts imho.
                      >
                      > As for "top level of serialization" in my opinion the ONLY place
                      > can
                      > be titled like that is highest level where you can put the element
                      > and since root can be only one, top level is immediate child of the
                      > root element. Thoughts?
                      >
                      > At least it simplifies the situation :))
                      >
                      > Best wishes, Paul.
                      >
                      > --- Doug Davis <dug@...> wrote:
                      > > yup, so isn't:
                      > > <SOAP-ENV:Body>
                      > >�� <a:mypart xmlns:a="some-uri">hello</a:mypart>
                      > >�� <a:mypart xmlns:a="some-uri">howdy</a:mypart>
                      > > </SOAP-ENV:Body>
                      > > legal?� If so, what do you do with it?
                      > > -Dug
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Manish Balsara <manishb@...> on 04/05/2001 12:04:07 PM
                      > >
                      > > Please respond to soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                      > >
                      > > To:�� soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                      > > cc:
                      > > Subject:� RE: [soapbuilders] id / href
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >� Paul
                      > >
                      > > The definition of independent element does not indicate that it
                      > has
                      > > to be
                      > > after the body. All it says is "An independent element is any
                      > > element
                      > > appearing at the top level of a serialization". Wouldn't it mean
                      > > that I
                      > > should be able to serialize it inside the body as the top level
                      > > element?
                      > >
                      > > What you suggesting is interesting, because I had always
                      > wondered,
                      > > what can one one put after the Body element. Now I know.
                      > >
                      > > manish
                      > >
                      > > On Thu, 5 Apr 2001, Paul Kulchenko wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > <html><body>
                      > > > <tt>
                      > > > Hi, Simon!<BR>
                      > > > <BR>
                      > > > Two observations. First, I believe that spec is about
                      > coding<BR>
                      > > > multirefs as INDEPENDENT elements and in my understanding it
                      > > means to<BR>
                      > > > put them AFTER the Body, not inside (it was several long
                      > > discussions<BR>
                      > > > and that is my conclusion on that). So, INSIDE the Body you may
                      > > also<BR>
                      > > > have OTHER elements than method entry, but they'll go AFTER,
                      > > right?<BR>
                      > > > <BR>
                      > > > Also, spec says something that Headers should be
                      > self-sufficient,
                      > > for<BR>
                      > > > me that means that if you have shared references between
                      > headers
                      > > and<BR>
                      > > > Body (quite possible), they should be encoded either in-place
                      > > inside<BR>
                      > > > the Header, or, again, on top level, so right after the body,
                      > > only<BR>
                      > > > then you can reach them without parsing Body itself. <BR>
                      > > > <BR>
                      > > > I think it should address your concerns, shouldn't it? <BR>
                      > > > <BR>
                      > > > Best wishes, Paul.<BR>
                      > > > <BR>
                      > > > --- Simon Fell <sfell@...> wrote:<BR>
                      > > > > This is from the original email that kicked this whole
                      > > thread
                      > > off<BR>
                      > > > > <BR>
                      > > > > <soap:Body<BR>
                      > > > > soap:encodingStyle="<a href="
                      > > http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
                      > > http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/</a>"><BR>
                      > > > >     <struct
                      > id="1"><BR>
                      > > > >       <varInt
                      > > xmlns=""
                      > > >634</varInt><BR>
                      > > > >       <varString
                      > > xmlns=""
                      > > >en stringare</varString><BR>
                      > > > >       <varFloat
                      > > xmlns=""
                      > > >87.5</varFloat><BR>
                      > > > >     </struct><BR>
                      > > > >     <echoStructResponse
                      > > xmlns="<a href="
                      > >
                      > http://soapinterop.org/">http://soapinterop.org/</a>"><BR>
                      > > > >       <Return
                      > > href="#1"
                      > > /><BR>
                      > > > >     </echoStructResponse> <BR>
                      > > > > </soap:Body><BR>
                      > > > > <BR>
                      > > > > how do you know which element under the Body element is
                      > the
                      > > return<BR>
                      > > > > struct<BR>
                      > > > > (echoStructResponse in this case), and not just some
                      > > independent<BR>
                      > > > > serialization (like struct) ? You can't rely on the name
                      > > (without<BR>
                      > > > > being told<BR>
                      > > > > it via some OOB mechanism), and you can't rely on the
                      > > position.
                      > > if<BR>
                      > > > > the root<BR>
                      > > > > attribute was required, then that would help (as there'd
                      > be
                      > > only<BR>
                      > > > > one element<BR>
                      > > > > that was marked as a true root)<BR>
                      > > > > <BR>
                      > > > > Cheers<BR>
                      > > > > Simon<BR>
                      > > > > <BR>
                      > > > > -----Original Message-----<BR>
                      > > > > From: Jake Savin [mailto:jake@...]<BR>
                      > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:13 PM<BR>
                      > > > > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com<BR>
                      > > > > Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] id / href<BR>
                      > > > > <BR>
                      > > > > <BR>
                      > > > > I'm having a little trouble visualizing this problem.<BR>
                      > > > > <BR>
                      > > > > Simon, could you post an example XML fragment which
                      > > demonstrates<BR>
                      > > > > the<BR>
                      > > > > problem?<BR>
                      > > > > <BR>
                      > > > > Thanks, -Jake<BR>
                      > > > > <BR>
                      > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor<BR>
                      > > > > <BR>
                      > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<BR>
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                      > > > > <BR>
                      > > > >  <BR>
                      > > > > <BR>
                      > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to<BR>
                      >
                      === message truncated ===


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