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  • Manish Balsara
    Hi Is it legal to have multi-refs with backward reference or should it always be forward reference? It might help recieving parsers if they intend to stream
    Message 1 of 20 , Apr 5, 2001
      Hi

      Is it legal to have multi-refs with backward reference or should it always
      be forward reference? It might help recieving parsers if they intend to
      stream the request.

      Would the following backward reference be legal in context of rpc ? can
      mustUnderstand attribute be used to indicate that element "struct" is not
      a parameter?

      <soap:Body
      soap:encodingStyle="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
      <struct id="1">
      <varInt xmlns="">634</varInt>
      <varString xmlns="">en stringare</varString>
      <varFloat xmlns="">87.5</varFloat>
      </struct>
      <echoStructResponse xmlns="http://soapinterop.org/">
      <Return href="#1" />
      </echoStructResponse>
      </soap:Body>

      thanks
      manish
    • Manish Balsara
      Simon This is what I had understood. In my previous mail I made a mistake of saying mustUnderstand. WHat I meant was the root attribute
      Message 2 of 20 , Apr 5, 2001
        Simon

        This is what I had understood. In my previous mail I made a mistake of
        saying mustUnderstand. WHat I meant was the root attribute
        http://www.w3.org/TR/SOAP/#_Toc478383501

        It looks like we can use the root attribute in the body to indicate that
        the accessor is not a true object graph.

        manish

        On Thu, 5 Apr 2001, Simon Fell wrote:

        > <html><body>
        > <tt>
        > I think Doug is onto something here<BR>
        > <BR>
        > I thought there was enough rules between section 5 & section 7 to make the<BR>
        > first struct in the response body the response, and the following struct(s),<BR>
        > independent serialization graphs, but after review I can't see anything that<BR>
        > enforces that (Yet Another Interop Nightmare). I'm willing to bet that there<BR>
        > isn't a single implementation that would cope with having the independent<BR>
        > serialization graphs first, after all, the response element name is not<BR>
        > significant, (section 7.1 bullet 6). This means its impossible for the SOAP<BR>
        > engine to determine which struct in the response is the response struct<BR>
        > (unless there's only a single struct), without the client code telling it.<BR>
        > This seems like a whole repeat of the return element issues, only worse, as<BR>
        > there's no positional clue either.<BR>
        > <BR>
        > Cheers<BR>
        > Simon<BR>
        > <BR>
        > -----Original Message-----<BR>
        > From: Doug Davis [mailto:dug@...]<BR>
        > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 12:39 PM<BR>
        > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com<BR>
        > Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] id / href<BR>
        > <BR>
        > <BR>
        > There are two things that I'm confused by<BR>
        > (apologies if this is stupid  8-) but:<BR>
        > 1 - to say something is a struct doesn't that mean<BR>
        >     that it looks like:<BR>
        >       <obj><BR>
        >         <field1>blah</field1><BR>
        >         <field2>blah</field2><BR>
        >       </obj><BR>
        >     but doesn't say anything about field1 having to come<BR>
        >     before field2 ?  So if the response is modeled as<BR>
        >     a struct, why does the response have to come before<BR>
        >     all id/href's?  The spec just says the response value<BR>
        >     has to come before the in/out params, not referenced<BR>
        >     values.<BR>
        > 2 - Also, when they say the response is modeled as a struct<BR>
        >     aren't they talking about "that" one body element that<BR>
        >     makes up the repsonse.  But can't other body elements<BR>
        >     come before that one?<BR>
        > <BR>
        > -Dug<BR>
        > <BR>
        > Simon Fell <sfell@...> on 04/05/2001 02:18:45 PM<BR>
        > <BR>
        > Please respond to soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com<BR>
        > <BR>
        > To:   "'soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com'" <soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com><BR>
        > cc:<BR>
        > Subject:  RE: [soapbuilders] id / href<BR>
        > <BR>
        > <BR>
        > <BR>
        > its implied by the statement that the return is modeled as a struct.<BR>
        > <BR>
        > -----Original Message-----<BR>
        > From: Doug Davis [mailto:dug@...]<BR>
        > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 11:06 AM<BR>
        > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com<BR>
        > Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] id / href<BR>
        > <BR>
        > <BR>
        > Simon,<BR>
        > � I'm sure I'm missing it,but where in section 7 does it say that the 1st<BR>
        > element of the body *must* be the response?<BR>
        > -Dug<BR>
        > <BR>
        > Simon Fell <sfell@...> on 04/05/2001 02:00:55 PM<BR>
        > <BR>
        > Please respond to soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com<BR>
        > <BR>
        > To:�� "'soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com'" <soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com><BR>
        > cc:<BR>
        > Subject:� RE: [soapbuilders] id / href<BR>
        > <BR>
        > <BR>
        > <BR>
        > that wouldn't be conformant with the guidelines in section 7.<BR>
        > (echoStructResponse should be the first element within the body)<BR>
        > <BR>
        > the spec say's nothing about the relative order of id/hrefs, this was<BR>
        > discussed a couple of days ago.<BR>
        > <BR>
        > Cheers<BR>
        > Simon<BR>
        > <BR>
        > -----Original Message-----<BR>
        > From: Manish Balsara [mailto:manishb@...]<BR>
        > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 6:06 AM<BR>
        > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com<BR>
        > Subject: [soapbuilders] id / href<BR>
        > <BR>
        > <BR>
        > Hi<BR>
        > <BR>
        > Is it legal to have multi-refs with backward reference or should it always<BR>
        > be forward reference? It might help recieving parsers if they intend to<BR>
        > stream the request.<BR>
        > <BR>
        > Would the following backward reference be legal in context of rpc ? can<BR>
        > mustUnderstand attribute be used to indicate that element "struct" is not<BR>
        > a parameter?<BR>
        > <BR>
        > � <soap:Body<BR>
        > soap:encodingStyle="<a href="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/</a>"><BR>
        > ��� <struct id="1"><BR>
        > ����� <varInt xmlns="">634</varInt><BR>
        > ����� <varString xmlns="">en stringare</varString><BR>
        > ����� <varFloat xmlns="">87.5</varFloat><BR>
        > ��� </struct><BR>
        > ��� <echoStructResponse xmlns="<a href="http://soapinterop.org/">http://soapinterop.org/</a>"><BR>
        > ����� <Return href="#1" /><BR>
        > ��� </echoStructResponse><BR>
        > � </soap:Body><BR>
        > <BR>
        > thanks<BR>
        > manish<BR>
        > <BR>
        > <BR>
        > <BR>
        > <BR>
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      • Manish Balsara
        Paul The definition of independent element does not indicate that it has to be after the body. All it says is An independent element is any element appearing
        Message 3 of 20 , Apr 5, 2001
          Paul

          The definition of independent element does not indicate that it has to be
          after the body. All it says is "An independent element is any element
          appearing at the top level of a serialization". Wouldn't it mean that I
          should be able to serialize it inside the body as the top level element?

          What you suggesting is interesting, because I had always wondered,
          what can one one put after the Body element. Now I know.

          manish

          On Thu, 5 Apr 2001, Paul Kulchenko wrote:

          > <html><body>
          > <tt>
          > Hi, Simon!<BR>
          > <BR>
          > Two observations. First, I believe that spec is about coding<BR>
          > multirefs as INDEPENDENT elements and in my understanding it means to<BR>
          > put them AFTER the Body, not inside (it was several long discussions<BR>
          > and that is my conclusion on that). So, INSIDE the Body you may also<BR>
          > have OTHER elements than method entry, but they'll go AFTER, right?<BR>
          > <BR>
          > Also, spec says something that Headers should be self-sufficient, for<BR>
          > me that means that if you have shared references between headers and<BR>
          > Body (quite possible), they should be encoded either in-place inside<BR>
          > the Header, or, again, on top level, so right after the body, only<BR>
          > then you can reach them without parsing Body itself. <BR>
          > <BR>
          > I think it should address your concerns, shouldn't it? <BR>
          > <BR>
          > Best wishes, Paul.<BR>
          > <BR>
          > --- Simon Fell <sfell@...> wrote:<BR>
          > > This is from the original email that kicked this whole thread off<BR>
          > > <BR>
          > > <soap:Body<BR>
          > > soap:encodingStyle="<a href="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/</a>"><BR>
          > >     <struct id="1"><BR>
          > >       <varInt xmlns="">634</varInt><BR>
          > >       <varString xmlns="">en stringare</varString><BR>
          > >       <varFloat xmlns="">87.5</varFloat><BR>
          > >     </struct><BR>
          > >     <echoStructResponse xmlns="<a href="http://soapinterop.org/">http://soapinterop.org/</a>"><BR>
          > >       <Return href="#1" /><BR>
          > >     </echoStructResponse> <BR>
          > > </soap:Body><BR>
          > > <BR>
          > > how do you know which element under the Body element is the return<BR>
          > > struct<BR>
          > > (echoStructResponse in this case), and not just some independent<BR>
          > > serialization (like struct) ? You can't rely on the name (without<BR>
          > > being told<BR>
          > > it via some OOB mechanism), and you can't rely on the position. if<BR>
          > > the root<BR>
          > > attribute was required, then that would help (as there'd be only<BR>
          > > one element<BR>
          > > that was marked as a true root)<BR>
          > > <BR>
          > > Cheers<BR>
          > > Simon<BR>
          > > <BR>
          > > -----Original Message-----<BR>
          > > From: Jake Savin [mailto:jake@...]<BR>
          > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:13 PM<BR>
          > > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com<BR>
          > > Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] id / href<BR>
          > > <BR>
          > > <BR>
          > > I'm having a little trouble visualizing this problem.<BR>
          > > <BR>
          > > Simon, could you post an example XML fragment which demonstrates<BR>
          > > the<BR>
          > > problem?<BR>
          > > <BR>
          > > Thanks, -Jake<BR>
          > > <BR>
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        • Simon Fell
          that wouldn t be conformant with the guidelines in section 7. (echoStructResponse should be the first element within the body) the spec say s nothing about the
          Message 4 of 20 , Apr 5, 2001
            that wouldn't be conformant with the guidelines in section 7.
            (echoStructResponse should be the first element within the body)

            the spec say's nothing about the relative order of id/hrefs, this was
            discussed a couple of days ago.

            Cheers
            Simon

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Manish Balsara [mailto:manishb@...]
            Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 6:06 AM
            To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [soapbuilders] id / href


            Hi

            Is it legal to have multi-refs with backward reference or should it always
            be forward reference? It might help recieving parsers if they intend to
            stream the request.

            Would the following backward reference be legal in context of rpc ? can
            mustUnderstand attribute be used to indicate that element "struct" is not
            a parameter?

            <soap:Body
            soap:encodingStyle="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
            <struct id="1">
            <varInt xmlns="">634</varInt>
            <varString xmlns="">en stringare</varString>
            <varFloat xmlns="">87.5</varFloat>
            </struct>
            <echoStructResponse xmlns="http://soapinterop.org/">
            <Return href="#1" />
            </echoStructResponse>
            </soap:Body>

            thanks
            manish




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          • Andrew Layman
            Right. To be even more emphatic, you should not presume that the target of a reference will precede the reference. In some cases, such as with loops in
            Message 5 of 20 , Apr 5, 2001
              Right. To be even more emphatic, you should not presume that the target
              of a reference will precede the reference. In some cases, such as with
              loops in graphs, such an order is not possible.

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Simon Fell [mailto:sfell@...]
              Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 11:01 AM
              To: 'soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com'
              Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] id / href


              that wouldn't be conformant with the guidelines in section 7.
              (echoStructResponse should be the first element within the body)

              the spec say's nothing about the relative order of id/hrefs, this was
              discussed a couple of days ago.

              Cheers
              Simon

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Manish Balsara [mailto:manishb@...]
              Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 6:06 AM
              To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [soapbuilders] id / href


              Hi

              Is it legal to have multi-refs with backward reference or should it
              always
              be forward reference? It might help recieving parsers if they intend to
              stream the request.

              Would the following backward reference be legal in context of rpc ? can
              mustUnderstand attribute be used to indicate that element "struct" is
              not
              a parameter?

              <soap:Body
              soap:encodingStyle="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
              <struct id="1">
              <varInt xmlns="">634</varInt>
              <varString xmlns="">en stringare</varString>
              <varFloat xmlns="">87.5</varFloat>
              </struct>
              <echoStructResponse xmlns="http://soapinterop.org/">
              <Return href="#1" />
              </echoStructResponse>
              </soap:Body>

              thanks
              manish




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              soapbuilders-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



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            • Doug Davis
              Simon, I m sure I m missing it,but where in section 7 does it say that the 1st element of the body *must* be the response? -Dug Simon Fell
              Message 6 of 20 , Apr 5, 2001
                Simon,
                I'm sure I'm missing it,but where in section 7 does it say that the 1st
                element of the body *must* be the response?
                -Dug

                Simon Fell <sfell@...> on 04/05/2001 02:00:55 PM

                Please respond to soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com

                To: "'soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com'" <soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com>
                cc:
                Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] id / href



                that wouldn't be conformant with the guidelines in section 7.
                (echoStructResponse should be the first element within the body)

                the spec say's nothing about the relative order of id/hrefs, this was
                discussed a couple of days ago.

                Cheers
                Simon

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Manish Balsara [mailto:manishb@...]
                Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 6:06 AM
                To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [soapbuilders] id / href


                Hi

                Is it legal to have multi-refs with backward reference or should it always
                be forward reference? It might help recieving parsers if they intend to
                stream the request.

                Would the following backward reference be legal in context of rpc ? can
                mustUnderstand attribute be used to indicate that element "struct" is not
                a parameter?

                  <soap:Body
                soap:encodingStyle="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
                    <struct id="1">
                      <varInt xmlns="">634</varInt>
                      <varString xmlns="">en stringare</varString>
                      <varFloat xmlns="">87.5</varFloat>
                    </struct>
                    <echoStructResponse xmlns="http://soapinterop.org/">
                      <Return href="#1" />
                    </echoStructResponse>
                  </soap:Body>

                thanks
                manish




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              • Simon Fell
                its implied by the statement that the return is modeled as a struct. ... From: Doug Davis [mailto:dug@us.ibm.com] Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 11:06 AM To:
                Message 7 of 20 , Apr 5, 2001
                  its implied by the statement that the return is modeled as a struct.

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Doug Davis [mailto:dug@...]
                  Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 11:06 AM
                  To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] id / href


                  Simon,
                  I'm sure I'm missing it,but where in section 7 does it say that the 1st
                  element of the body *must* be the response?
                  -Dug

                  Simon Fell <sfell@...> on 04/05/2001 02:00:55 PM

                  Please respond to soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com

                  To: "'soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com'" <soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com>
                  cc:
                  Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] id / href



                  that wouldn't be conformant with the guidelines in section 7.
                  (echoStructResponse should be the first element within the body)

                  the spec say's nothing about the relative order of id/hrefs, this was
                  discussed a couple of days ago.

                  Cheers
                  Simon

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Manish Balsara [mailto:manishb@...]
                  Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 6:06 AM
                  To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [soapbuilders] id / href


                  Hi

                  Is it legal to have multi-refs with backward reference or should it always
                  be forward reference? It might help recieving parsers if they intend to
                  stream the request.

                  Would the following backward reference be legal in context of rpc ? can
                  mustUnderstand attribute be used to indicate that element "struct" is not
                  a parameter?

                    <soap:Body
                  soap:encodingStyle="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
                      <struct id="1">
                        <varInt xmlns="">634</varInt>
                        <varString xmlns="">en stringare</varString>
                        <varFloat xmlns="">87.5</varFloat>
                      </struct>
                      <echoStructResponse xmlns="http://soapinterop.org/">
                        <Return href="#1" />
                      </echoStructResponse>
                    </soap:Body>

                  thanks
                  manish




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                • Doug Davis
                  There are two things that I m confused by (apologies if this is stupid 8-) but: 1 - to say something is a struct doesn t that mean that it looks like:
                  Message 8 of 20 , Apr 5, 2001
                    There are two things that I'm confused by
                    (apologies if this is stupid 8-) but:
                    1 - to say something is a struct doesn't that mean
                    that it looks like:
                    <obj>
                    <field1>blah</field1>
                    <field2>blah</field2>
                    </obj>
                    but doesn't say anything about field1 having to come
                    before field2 ? So if the response is modeled as
                    a struct, why does the response have to come before
                    all id/href's? The spec just says the response value
                    has to come before the in/out params, not referenced
                    values.
                    2 - Also, when they say the response is modeled as a struct
                    aren't they talking about "that" one body element that
                    makes up the repsonse. But can't other body elements
                    come before that one?

                    -Dug

                    Simon Fell <sfell@...> on 04/05/2001 02:18:45 PM

                    Please respond to soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com

                    To: "'soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com'" <soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com>
                    cc:
                    Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] id / href



                    its implied by the statement that the return is modeled as a struct.

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Doug Davis [mailto:dug@...]
                    Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 11:06 AM
                    To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] id / href


                    Simon,
                      I'm sure I'm missing it,but where in section 7 does it say that the 1st
                    element of the body *must* be the response?
                    -Dug

                    Simon Fell <sfell@...> on 04/05/2001 02:00:55 PM

                    Please respond to soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com

                    To:   "'soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com'" <soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com>
                    cc:
                    Subject:  RE: [soapbuilders] id / href



                    that wouldn't be conformant with the guidelines in section 7.
                    (echoStructResponse should be the first element within the body)

                    the spec say's nothing about the relative order of id/hrefs, this was
                    discussed a couple of days ago.

                    Cheers
                    Simon

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Manish Balsara [mailto:manishb@...]
                    Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 6:06 AM
                    To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [soapbuilders] id / href


                    Hi

                    Is it legal to have multi-refs with backward reference or should it always
                    be forward reference? It might help recieving parsers if they intend to
                    stream the request.

                    Would the following backward reference be legal in context of rpc ? can
                    mustUnderstand attribute be used to indicate that element "struct" is not
                    a parameter?

                      <soap:Body
                    soap:encodingStyle="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
                        <struct id="1">
                          <varInt xmlns="">634</varInt>
                          <varString xmlns="">en stringare</varString>
                          <varFloat xmlns="">87.5</varFloat>
                        </struct>
                        <echoStructResponse xmlns="http://soapinterop.org/">
                          <Return href="#1" />
                        </echoStructResponse>
                      </soap:Body>

                    thanks
                    manish




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                  • Simon Fell
                    I think Doug is onto something here I thought there was enough rules between section 5 & section 7 to make the first struct in the response body the response,
                    Message 9 of 20 , Apr 5, 2001
                      I think Doug is onto something here

                      I thought there was enough rules between section 5 & section 7 to make the
                      first struct in the response body the response, and the following struct(s),
                      independent serialization graphs, but after review I can't see anything that
                      enforces that (Yet Another Interop Nightmare). I'm willing to bet that there
                      isn't a single implementation that would cope with having the independent
                      serialization graphs first, after all, the response element name is not
                      significant, (section 7.1 bullet 6). This means its impossible for the SOAP
                      engine to determine which struct in the response is the response struct
                      (unless there's only a single struct), without the client code telling it.
                      This seems like a whole repeat of the return element issues, only worse, as
                      there's no positional clue either.

                      Cheers
                      Simon

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Doug Davis [mailto:dug@...]
                      Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 12:39 PM
                      To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] id / href


                      There are two things that I'm confused by
                      (apologies if this is stupid 8-) but:
                      1 - to say something is a struct doesn't that mean
                      that it looks like:
                      <obj>
                      <field1>blah</field1>
                      <field2>blah</field2>
                      </obj>
                      but doesn't say anything about field1 having to come
                      before field2 ? So if the response is modeled as
                      a struct, why does the response have to come before
                      all id/href's? The spec just says the response value
                      has to come before the in/out params, not referenced
                      values.
                      2 - Also, when they say the response is modeled as a struct
                      aren't they talking about "that" one body element that
                      makes up the repsonse. But can't other body elements
                      come before that one?

                      -Dug

                      Simon Fell <sfell@...> on 04/05/2001 02:18:45 PM

                      Please respond to soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com

                      To: "'soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com'" <soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com>
                      cc:
                      Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] id / href



                      its implied by the statement that the return is modeled as a struct.

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Doug Davis [mailto:dug@...]
                      Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 11:06 AM
                      To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] id / href


                      Simon,
                        I'm sure I'm missing it,but where in section 7 does it say that the 1st
                      element of the body *must* be the response?
                      -Dug

                      Simon Fell <sfell@...> on 04/05/2001 02:00:55 PM

                      Please respond to soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com

                      To:   "'soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com'" <soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com>
                      cc:
                      Subject:  RE: [soapbuilders] id / href



                      that wouldn't be conformant with the guidelines in section 7.
                      (echoStructResponse should be the first element within the body)

                      the spec say's nothing about the relative order of id/hrefs, this was
                      discussed a couple of days ago.

                      Cheers
                      Simon

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Manish Balsara [mailto:manishb@...]
                      Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 6:06 AM
                      To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [soapbuilders] id / href


                      Hi

                      Is it legal to have multi-refs with backward reference or should it always
                      be forward reference? It might help recieving parsers if they intend to
                      stream the request.

                      Would the following backward reference be legal in context of rpc ? can
                      mustUnderstand attribute be used to indicate that element "struct" is not
                      a parameter?

                        <soap:Body
                      soap:encodingStyle="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
                          <struct id="1">
                            <varInt xmlns="">634</varInt>
                            <varString xmlns="">en stringare</varString>
                            <varFloat xmlns="">87.5</varFloat>
                          </struct>
                          <echoStructResponse xmlns="http://soapinterop.org/">
                            <Return href="#1" />
                          </echoStructResponse>
                        </soap:Body>

                      thanks
                      manish




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                    • Simon Fell
                      yes, but unfortunately you re not required to populate the root attribute, and checking the .NET wiredumps, I noticed that it doesn t. ... From: Manish Balsara
                      Message 10 of 20 , Apr 5, 2001
                        yes, but unfortunately you're not required to populate the root attribute,
                        and checking the .NET wiredumps, I noticed that it doesn't.

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Manish Balsara [mailto:manishb@...]
                        Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 8:07 AM
                        To: 'soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com'
                        Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] id / href


                        Simon

                        This is what I had understood. In my previous mail I made a mistake of
                        saying mustUnderstand. WHat I meant was the root attribute
                        http://www.w3.org/TR/SOAP/#_Toc478383501

                        It looks like we can use the root attribute in the body to indicate that
                        the accessor is not a true object graph.

                        manish

                        On Thu, 5 Apr 2001, Simon Fell wrote:

                        > <html><body>
                        > <tt>
                        > I think Doug is onto something here<BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > I thought there was enough rules between section 5 & section 7 to make
                        the<BR>
                        > first struct in the response body the response, and the following
                        struct(s),<BR>
                        > independent serialization graphs, but after review I can't see anything
                        that<BR>
                        > enforces that (Yet Another Interop Nightmare). I'm willing to bet that
                        there<BR>
                        > isn't a single implementation that would cope with having the
                        independent<BR>
                        > serialization graphs first, after all, the response element name is
                        not<BR>
                        > significant, (section 7.1 bullet 6). This means its impossible for the
                        SOAP<BR>
                        > engine to determine which struct in the response is the response
                        struct<BR>
                        > (unless there's only a single struct), without the client code telling
                        it.<BR>
                        > This seems like a whole repeat of the return element issues, only worse,
                        as<BR>
                        > there's no positional clue either.<BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > Cheers<BR>
                        > Simon<BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > -----Original Message-----<BR>
                        > From: Doug Davis [mailto:dug@...]<BR>
                        > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 12:39 PM<BR>
                        > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com<BR>
                        > Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] id / href<BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > There are two things that I'm confused by<BR>
                        > (apologies if this is stupid  8-) but:<BR>
                        > 1 - to say something is a struct doesn't that mean<BR>
                        >     that it looks like:<BR>
                        >       <obj><BR>
                        >        
                        <field1>blah</field1><BR>
                        >        
                        <field2>blah</field2><BR>
                        >       </obj><BR>
                        >     but doesn't say anything about field1 having to
                        come<BR>
                        >     before field2 ?  So if the response is modeled
                        as<BR>
                        >     a struct, why does the response have to come before<BR>
                        >     all id/href's?  The spec just says the response
                        value<BR>
                        >     has to come before the in/out params, not
                        referenced<BR>
                        >     values.<BR>
                        > 2 - Also, when they say the response is modeled as a struct<BR>
                        >     aren't they talking about "that" one body
                        element that<BR>
                        >     makes up the repsonse.  But can't other body
                        elements<BR>
                        >     come before that one?<BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > -Dug<BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > Simon Fell <sfell@...> on 04/05/2001 02:18:45 PM<BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > Please respond to soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com<BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > To:   "'soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com'"
                        <soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com><BR>
                        > cc:<BR>
                        > Subject:  RE: [soapbuilders] id / href<BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > its implied by the statement that the return is modeled as a struct.<BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > -----Original Message-----<BR>
                        > From: Doug Davis [mailto:dug@...]<BR>
                        > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 11:06 AM<BR>
                        > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com<BR>
                        > Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] id / href<BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > Simon,<BR>
                        >   I'm sure I'm missing it,but where in section 7 does it say that the
                        1st<BR>
                        > element of the body *must* be the response?<BR>
                        > -Dug<BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > Simon Fell <sfell@...> on 04/05/2001 02:00:55 PM<BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > Please respond to soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com<BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > To:   "'soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com'"
                        <soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com><BR>
                        > cc:<BR>
                        > Subject:  RE: [soapbuilders] id / href<BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > that wouldn't be conformant with the guidelines in section 7.<BR>
                        > (echoStructResponse should be the first element within the body)<BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > the spec say's nothing about the relative order of id/hrefs, this was<BR>
                        > discussed a couple of days ago.<BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > Cheers<BR>
                        > Simon<BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > -----Original Message-----<BR>
                        > From: Manish Balsara [mailto:manishb@...]<BR>
                        > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 6:06 AM<BR>
                        > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com<BR>
                        > Subject: [soapbuilders] id / href<BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > Hi<BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > Is it legal to have multi-refs with backward reference or should it
                        always<BR>
                        > be forward reference? It might help recieving parsers if they intend
                        to<BR>
                        > stream the request.<BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > Would the following backward reference be legal in context of rpc ?
                        can<BR>
                        > mustUnderstand attribute be used to indicate that element
                        "struct" is not<BR>
                        > a parameter?<BR>
                        > <BR>
                        >   <soap:Body<BR>
                        > soap:encodingStyle="<a
                        href="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/
                        soap/encoding/</a>"><BR>
                        >     <struct id="1"><BR>
                        >       <varInt xmlns="">634</varInt><BR>
                        >       <varString xmlns="">en
                        stringare</varString><BR>
                        >       <varFloat xmlns="">87.5</varFloat><BR>
                        >     </struct><BR>
                        >     <echoStructResponse xmlns="<a
                        href="http://soapinterop.org/">http://soapinterop.org/</a>"><BR>
                        >       <Return href="#1" /><BR>
                        >     </echoStructResponse><BR>
                        >   </soap:Body><BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > thanks<BR>
                        > manish<BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<BR>
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                      • Jake Savin
                        I m having a little trouble visualizing this problem. Simon, could you post an example XML fragment which demonstrates the problem? Thanks, -Jake
                        Message 11 of 20 , Apr 5, 2001
                          I'm having a little trouble visualizing this problem.

                          Simon, could you post an example XML fragment which demonstrates the
                          problem?

                          Thanks, -Jake

                          on 4/5/01 1:08 PM, Simon Fell at sfell@... wrote:

                          > yes, but unfortunately you're not required to populate the root attribute,
                          > and checking the .NET wiredumps, I noticed that it doesn't.
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: Manish Balsara [mailto:manishb@...]
                          > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 8:07 AM
                          > To: 'soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com'
                          > Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] id / href
                          >
                          >
                          > Simon
                          >
                          > This is what I had understood. In my previous mail I made a mistake of
                          > saying mustUnderstand. WHat I meant was the root attribute
                          > http://www.w3.org/TR/SOAP/#_Toc478383501
                          >
                          > It looks like we can use the root attribute in the body to indicate that
                          > the accessor is not a true object graph.
                          >
                          > manish
                          >
                          > On Thu, 5 Apr 2001, Simon Fell wrote:
                          >
                          >> <html><body>
                          >> <tt>
                          >> I think Doug is onto something here<BR>
                          >> <BR>
                          >> I thought there was enough rules between section 5 & section 7 to make
                          > the<BR>
                          >> first struct in the response body the response, and the following
                          > struct(s),<BR>
                          >> independent serialization graphs, but after review I can't see anything
                          > that<BR>
                          >> enforces that (Yet Another Interop Nightmare). I'm willing to bet that
                          > there<BR>
                          >> isn't a single implementation that would cope with having the
                          > independent<BR>
                          >> serialization graphs first, after all, the response element name is
                          > not<BR>
                          >> significant, (section 7.1 bullet 6). This means its impossible for the
                          > SOAP<BR>
                          >> engine to determine which struct in the response is the response
                          > struct<BR>
                          >> (unless there's only a single struct), without the client code telling
                          > it.<BR>
                          >> This seems like a whole repeat of the return element issues, only worse,
                          > as<BR>
                          >> there's no positional clue either.<BR>
                          >> <BR>
                          >> Cheers<BR>
                          >> Simon<BR>
                          >> <BR>
                          >> -----Original Message-----<BR>
                          >> From: Doug Davis [mailto:dug@...]<BR>
                          >> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 12:39 PM<BR>
                          >> To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com<BR>
                          >> Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] id / href<BR>
                          >> <BR>
                          >> <BR>
                          >> There are two things that I'm confused by<BR>
                          >> (apologies if this is stupid  8-) but:<BR>
                          >> 1 - to say something is a struct doesn't that mean<BR>
                          >>     that it looks like:<BR>
                          >>       <obj><BR>
                          >>        
                          > <field1>blah</field1><BR>
                          >>        
                          > <field2>blah</field2><BR>
                          >>       </obj><BR>
                          >>     but doesn't say anything about field1 having to
                          > come<BR>
                          >>     before field2 ?  So if the response is modeled
                          > as<BR>
                          >>     a struct, why does the response have to come before<BR>
                          >>     all id/href's?  The spec just says the response
                          > value<BR>
                          >>     has to come before the in/out params, not
                          > referenced<BR>
                          >>     values.<BR>
                          >> 2 - Also, when they say the response is modeled as a struct<BR>
                          >>     aren't they talking about "that" one body
                          > element that<BR>
                          >>     makes up the repsonse.  But can't other body
                          > elements<BR>
                          >>     come before that one?<BR>
                          >> <BR>
                          >> -Dug<BR>
                          >> <BR>
                          >> Simon Fell <sfell@...> on 04/05/2001 02:18:45 PM<BR>
                          >> <BR>
                          >> Please respond to soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com<BR>
                          >> <BR>
                          >> To:   "'soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com'"
                          > <soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com><BR>
                          >> cc:<BR>
                          >> Subject:  RE: [soapbuilders] id / href<BR>
                          >> <BR>
                          >> <BR>
                          >> <BR>
                          >> its implied by the statement that the return is modeled as a struct.<BR>
                          >> <BR>
                          >> -----Original Message-----<BR>
                          >> From: Doug Davis [mailto:dug@...]<BR>
                          >> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 11:06 AM<BR>
                          >> To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com<BR>
                          >> Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] id / href<BR>
                          >> <BR>
                          >> <BR>
                          >> Simon,<BR>
                          >>   I'm sure I'm missing it,but where in section 7 does it say that the
                          > 1st<BR>
                          >> element of the body *must* be the response?<BR>
                          >> -Dug<BR>
                          >> <BR>
                          >> Simon Fell <sfell@...> on 04/05/2001 02:00:55 PM<BR>
                          >> <BR>
                          >> Please respond to soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com<BR>
                          >> <BR>
                          >> To:   "'soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com'"
                          > <soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com><BR>
                          >> cc:<BR>
                          >> Subject:  RE: [soapbuilders] id / href<BR>
                          >> <BR>
                          >> <BR>
                          >> <BR>
                          >> that wouldn't be conformant with the guidelines in section 7.<BR>
                          >> (echoStructResponse should be the first element within the body)<BR>
                          >> <BR>
                          >> the spec say's nothing about the relative order of id/hrefs, this was<BR>
                          >> discussed a couple of days ago.<BR>
                          >> <BR>
                          >> Cheers<BR>
                          >> Simon<BR>
                          >> <BR>
                          >> -----Original Message-----<BR>
                          >> From: Manish Balsara [mailto:manishb@...]<BR>
                          >> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 6:06 AM<BR>
                          >> To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com<BR>
                          >> Subject: [soapbuilders] id / href<BR>
                          >> <BR>
                          >> <BR>
                          >> Hi<BR>
                          >> <BR>
                          >> Is it legal to have multi-refs with backward reference or should it
                          > always<BR>
                          >> be forward reference? It might help recieving parsers if they intend
                          > to<BR>
                          >> stream the request.<BR>
                          >> <BR>
                          >> Would the following backward reference be legal in context of rpc ?
                          > can<BR>
                          >> mustUnderstand attribute be used to indicate that element
                          > "struct" is not<BR>
                          >> a parameter?<BR>
                          >> <BR>
                          >>   <soap:Body<BR>
                          >> soap:encodingStyle="<a
                          > href="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/
                          > soap/encoding/</a>"><BR>
                          >>     <struct id="1"><BR>
                          >>       <varInt xmlns="">634</varInt><BR>
                          >>       <varString xmlns="">en
                          > stringare</varString><BR>
                          >>       <varFloat xmlns="">87.5</varFloat><BR>
                          >>     </struct><BR>
                          >>     <echoStructResponse xmlns="<a
                          > href="http://soapinterop.org/">http://soapinterop.org/</a>"><BR>
                          >>       <Return href="#1" /><BR>
                          >>     </echoStructResponse><BR>
                          >>   </soap:Body><BR>
                          >> <BR>
                          >> thanks<BR>
                          >> manish<BR>
                          >> <BR>
                          >> <BR>
                          >> <BR>
                          >> <BR>
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                        • Simon Fell
                          This is from the original email that kicked this whole thread off
                          Message 12 of 20 , Apr 5, 2001
                            This is from the original email that kicked this whole thread off

                            <soap:Body
                            soap:encodingStyle="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
                            <struct id="1">
                            <varInt xmlns="">634</varInt>
                            <varString xmlns="">en stringare</varString>
                            <varFloat xmlns="">87.5</varFloat>
                            </struct>
                            <echoStructResponse xmlns="http://soapinterop.org/">
                            <Return href="#1" />
                            </echoStructResponse>
                            </soap:Body>

                            how do you know which element under the Body element is the return struct
                            (echoStructResponse in this case), and not just some independent
                            serialization (like struct) ? You can't rely on the name (without being told
                            it via some OOB mechanism), and you can't rely on the position. if the root
                            attribute was required, then that would help (as there'd be only one element
                            that was marked as a true root)

                            Cheers
                            Simon

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Jake Savin [mailto:jake@...]
                            Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:13 PM
                            To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] id / href


                            I'm having a little trouble visualizing this problem.

                            Simon, could you post an example XML fragment which demonstrates the
                            problem?

                            Thanks, -Jake
                          • Paul Kulchenko
                            Hi, Simon! Two observations. First, I believe that spec is about coding multirefs as INDEPENDENT elements and in my understanding it means to put them AFTER
                            Message 13 of 20 , Apr 5, 2001
                              Hi, Simon!

                              Two observations. First, I believe that spec is about coding
                              multirefs as INDEPENDENT elements and in my understanding it means to
                              put them AFTER the Body, not inside (it was several long discussions
                              and that is my conclusion on that). So, INSIDE the Body you may also
                              have OTHER elements than method entry, but they'll go AFTER, right?

                              Also, spec says something that Headers should be self-sufficient, for
                              me that means that if you have shared references between headers and
                              Body (quite possible), they should be encoded either in-place inside
                              the Header, or, again, on top level, so right after the body, only
                              then you can reach them without parsing Body itself.

                              I think it should address your concerns, shouldn't it?

                              Best wishes, Paul.

                              --- Simon Fell <sfell@...> wrote:
                              > This is from the original email that kicked this whole thread off
                              >
                              > <soap:Body
                              > soap:encodingStyle="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
                              > <struct id="1">
                              > <varInt xmlns="">634</varInt>
                              > <varString xmlns="">en stringare</varString>
                              > <varFloat xmlns="">87.5</varFloat>
                              > </struct>
                              > <echoStructResponse xmlns="http://soapinterop.org/">
                              > <Return href="#1" />
                              > </echoStructResponse>
                              > </soap:Body>
                              >
                              > how do you know which element under the Body element is the return
                              > struct
                              > (echoStructResponse in this case), and not just some independent
                              > serialization (like struct) ? You can't rely on the name (without
                              > being told
                              > it via some OOB mechanism), and you can't rely on the position. if
                              > the root
                              > attribute was required, then that would help (as there'd be only
                              > one element
                              > that was marked as a true root)
                              >
                              > Cheers
                              > Simon
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: Jake Savin [mailto:jake@...]
                              > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:13 PM
                              > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] id / href
                              >
                              >
                              > I'm having a little trouble visualizing this problem.
                              >
                              > Simon, could you post an example XML fragment which demonstrates
                              > the
                              > problem?
                              >
                              > Thanks, -Jake
                              >
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                            • Simon Fell
                              that s certainly logical, but I saw nothing in the spec that mandates that. Cheers Simon ... From: Paul Kulchenko [mailto:paulclinger@yahoo.com] Sent:
                              Message 14 of 20 , Apr 5, 2001
                                that's certainly logical, but I saw nothing in the spec that mandates that.

                                Cheers
                                Simon

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Paul Kulchenko [mailto:paulclinger@...]
                                Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:41 PM
                                To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] id / href


                                Hi, Simon!

                                Two observations. First, I believe that spec is about coding
                                multirefs as INDEPENDENT elements and in my understanding it means to
                                put them AFTER the Body, not inside (it was several long discussions
                                and that is my conclusion on that). So, INSIDE the Body you may also
                                have OTHER elements than method entry, but they'll go AFTER, right?

                                Also, spec says something that Headers should be self-sufficient, for
                                me that means that if you have shared references between headers and
                                Body (quite possible), they should be encoded either in-place inside
                                the Header, or, again, on top level, so right after the body, only
                                then you can reach them without parsing Body itself.

                                I think it should address your concerns, shouldn't it?

                                Best wishes, Paul.

                                --- Simon Fell <sfell@...> wrote:
                                > This is from the original email that kicked this whole thread off
                                >
                                > <soap:Body
                                > soap:encodingStyle="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
                                > <struct id="1">
                                > <varInt xmlns="">634</varInt>
                                > <varString xmlns="">en stringare</varString>
                                > <varFloat xmlns="">87.5</varFloat>
                                > </struct>
                                > <echoStructResponse xmlns="http://soapinterop.org/">
                                > <Return href="#1" />
                                > </echoStructResponse>
                                > </soap:Body>
                                >
                                > how do you know which element under the Body element is the return
                                > struct
                                > (echoStructResponse in this case), and not just some independent
                                > serialization (like struct) ? You can't rely on the name (without
                                > being told
                                > it via some OOB mechanism), and you can't rely on the position. if
                                > the root
                                > attribute was required, then that would help (as there'd be only
                                > one element
                                > that was marked as a true root)
                                >
                                > Cheers
                                > Simon
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: Jake Savin [mailto:jake@...]
                                > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:13 PM
                                > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] id / href
                                >
                                >
                                > I'm having a little trouble visualizing this problem.
                                >
                                > Simon, could you post an example XML fragment which demonstrates
                                > the
                                > problem?
                                >
                                > Thanks, -Jake
                                >
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                              • Paul Kulchenko
                                Hi, Simon! 5.1 11.Syntactically, an element may be independent or embedded . An independent element is any element appearing at the top level of
                                Message 15 of 20 , Apr 5, 2001
                                  Hi, Simon!

                                  5.1
                                  11.Syntactically, an element may be "independent" or "embedded". An
                                  independent element is any element appearing at the top level of
                                  serialization.

                                  Top level of serialization is inside Envelope (it cannot be higher)
                                  and since the PLACE of Body element is defined by spec, all other
                                  elements we can place only AFTER it.

                                  Best wishes, Paul.

                                  --- Simon Fell <sfell@...> wrote:
                                  > that's certainly logical, but I saw nothing in the spec that
                                  > mandates that.
                                  >
                                  > Cheers
                                  > Simon
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: Paul Kulchenko [mailto:paulclinger@...]
                                  > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:41 PM
                                  > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] id / href
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Hi, Simon!
                                  >
                                  > Two observations. First, I believe that spec is about coding
                                  > multirefs as INDEPENDENT elements and in my understanding it means
                                  > to
                                  > put them AFTER the Body, not inside (it was several long
                                  > discussions
                                  > and that is my conclusion on that). So, INSIDE the Body you may
                                  > also
                                  > have OTHER elements than method entry, but they'll go AFTER, right?
                                  >
                                  > Also, spec says something that Headers should be self-sufficient,
                                  > for
                                  > me that means that if you have shared references between headers
                                  > and
                                  > Body (quite possible), they should be encoded either in-place
                                  > inside
                                  > the Header, or, again, on top level, so right after the body, only
                                  > then you can reach them without parsing Body itself.
                                  >
                                  > I think it should address your concerns, shouldn't it?
                                  >
                                  > Best wishes, Paul.
                                  >
                                  > --- Simon Fell <sfell@...> wrote:
                                  > > This is from the original email that kicked this whole thread off
                                  > >
                                  > > <soap:Body
                                  > > soap:encodingStyle="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
                                  > > <struct id="1">
                                  > > <varInt xmlns="">634</varInt>
                                  > > <varString xmlns="">en stringare</varString>
                                  > > <varFloat xmlns="">87.5</varFloat>
                                  > > </struct>
                                  > > <echoStructResponse xmlns="http://soapinterop.org/">
                                  > > <Return href="#1" />
                                  > > </echoStructResponse>
                                  > > </soap:Body>
                                  > >
                                  > > how do you know which element under the Body element is the
                                  > return
                                  > > struct
                                  > > (echoStructResponse in this case), and not just some independent
                                  > > serialization (like struct) ? You can't rely on the name (without
                                  > > being told
                                  > > it via some OOB mechanism), and you can't rely on the position.
                                  > if
                                  > > the root
                                  > > attribute was required, then that would help (as there'd be only
                                  > > one element
                                  > > that was marked as a true root)
                                  > >
                                  > > Cheers
                                  > > Simon
                                  > >
                                  > > -----Original Message-----
                                  > > From: Jake Savin [mailto:jake@...]
                                  > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:13 PM
                                  > > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] id / href
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > I'm having a little trouble visualizing this problem.
                                  > >
                                  > > Simon, could you post an example XML fragment which demonstrates
                                  > > the
                                  > > problem?
                                  > >
                                  > > Thanks, -Jake
                                  > >
                                  > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                  > >
                                  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > > soapbuilders-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                                  > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
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                                • Doug Davis
                                  yup, so isn t: hello howdy legal? If so, what
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Apr 5, 2001
                                    yup, so isn't:
                                    <SOAP-ENV:Body>
                                    <a:mypart xmlns:a="some-uri">hello</a:mypart>
                                    <a:mypart xmlns:a="some-uri">howdy</a:mypart>
                                    </SOAP-ENV:Body>
                                    legal? If so, what do you do with it?
                                    -Dug


                                    Manish Balsara <manishb@...> on 04/05/2001 12:04:07 PM

                                    Please respond to soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com

                                    To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                                    cc:
                                    Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] id / href



                                    Paul

                                    The definition of independent element does not indicate that it has to be
                                    after the body. All it says is "An independent element is any element
                                    appearing at the top level of a serialization". Wouldn't it mean that I
                                    should be able to serialize it inside the body as the top level element?

                                    What you suggesting is interesting, because I had always wondered,
                                    what can one one put after the Body element. Now I know.

                                    manish

                                    On Thu, 5 Apr 2001, Paul Kulchenko wrote:

                                    > <html><body>
                                    > <tt>
                                    > Hi, Simon!<BR>
                                    > <BR>
                                    > Two observations. First, I believe that spec is about coding<BR>
                                    > multirefs as INDEPENDENT elements and in my understanding it means to<BR>
                                    > put them AFTER the Body, not inside (it was several long discussions<BR>
                                    > and that is my conclusion on that). So, INSIDE the Body you may also<BR>
                                    > have OTHER elements than method entry, but they'll go AFTER, right?<BR>
                                    > <BR>
                                    > Also, spec says something that Headers should be self-sufficient, for<BR>
                                    > me that means that if you have shared references between headers and<BR>
                                    > Body (quite possible), they should be encoded either in-place inside<BR>
                                    > the Header, or, again, on top level, so right after the body, only<BR>
                                    > then you can reach them without parsing Body itself. <BR>
                                    > <BR>
                                    > I think it should address your concerns, shouldn't it? <BR>
                                    > <BR>
                                    > Best wishes, Paul.<BR>
                                    > <BR>
                                    > --- Simon Fell <sfell@...> wrote:<BR>
                                    > > This is from the original email that kicked this whole thread
                                    off<BR>
                                    > > <BR>
                                    > > <soap:Body<BR>
                                    > > soap:encodingStyle="<a href="
                                    http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
                                    http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/</a>"><BR>
                                    > >     <struct id="1"><BR>
                                    > >       <varInt xmlns=""
                                    >634</varInt><BR>
                                    > >       <varString xmlns=""
                                    >en stringare</varString><BR>
                                    > >       <varFloat xmlns=""
                                    >87.5</varFloat><BR>
                                    > >     </struct><BR>
                                    > >     <echoStructResponse xmlns="<a href="
                                    http://soapinterop.org/">http://soapinterop.org/</a>"><BR>
                                    > >       <Return href="#1"
                                    /><BR>
                                    > >     </echoStructResponse> <BR>
                                    > > </soap:Body><BR>
                                    > > <BR>
                                    > > how do you know which element under the Body element is the
                                    return<BR>
                                    > > struct<BR>
                                    > > (echoStructResponse in this case), and not just some independent<BR>
                                    > > serialization (like struct) ? You can't rely on the name
                                    (without<BR>
                                    > > being told<BR>
                                    > > it via some OOB mechanism), and you can't rely on the position.
                                    if<BR>
                                    > > the root<BR>
                                    > > attribute was required, then that would help (as there'd be only<BR>
                                    > > one element<BR>
                                    > > that was marked as a true root)<BR>
                                    > > <BR>
                                    > > Cheers<BR>
                                    > > Simon<BR>
                                    > > <BR>
                                    > > -----Original Message-----<BR>
                                    > > From: Jake Savin [mailto:jake@...]<BR>
                                    > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:13 PM<BR>
                                    > > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com<BR>
                                    > > Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] id / href<BR>
                                    > > <BR>
                                    > > <BR>
                                    > > I'm having a little trouble visualizing this problem.<BR>
                                    > > <BR>
                                    > > Simon, could you post an example XML fragment which demonstrates<BR>
                                    > > the<BR>
                                    > > problem?<BR>
                                    > > <BR>
                                    > > Thanks, -Jake<BR>
                                    > > <BR>
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                                  • Doug Davis
                                    Paul, Body elements have to go after headers but it doesn t specify the order of the body elements (I think). So in your text below when you said AFTER it
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Apr 5, 2001
                                      Paul,
                                      Body elements have to go after headers but it doesn't specify
                                      the order of the body elements (I think). So in your text below when
                                      you said "AFTER it" that's what everyone has been assuming but
                                      I don't think it actually says that in the spec.
                                      -Dug


                                      Paul Kulchenko <paulclinger@...> on 04/05/2001 04:59:50 PM

                                      Please respond to soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com

                                      To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                                      cc:
                                      Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] id / href



                                      Hi, Simon!

                                      5.1
                                      11.Syntactically, an element may be "independent" or "embedded". An
                                      independent element is any element appearing at the top level of
                                      serialization.

                                      Top level of serialization is inside Envelope (it cannot be higher)
                                      and since the PLACE of Body element is defined by spec, all other
                                      elements we can place only AFTER it.

                                      Best wishes, Paul.

                                      --- Simon Fell <sfell@...> wrote:
                                      > that's certainly logical, but I saw nothing in the spec that
                                      > mandates that.
                                      >
                                      > Cheers
                                      > Simon
                                      >
                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: Paul Kulchenko [mailto:paulclinger@...]
                                      > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:41 PM
                                      > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] id / href
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Hi, Simon!
                                      >
                                      > Two observations. First, I believe that spec is about coding
                                      > multirefs as INDEPENDENT elements and in my understanding it means
                                      > to
                                      > put them AFTER the Body, not inside (it was several long
                                      > discussions
                                      > and that is my conclusion on that). So, INSIDE the Body you may
                                      > also
                                      > have OTHER elements than method entry, but they'll go AFTER, right?
                                      >
                                      > Also, spec says something that Headers should be self-sufficient,
                                      > for
                                      > me that means that if you have shared references between headers
                                      > and
                                      > Body (quite possible), they should be encoded either in-place
                                      > inside
                                      > the Header, or, again, on top level, so right after the body, only
                                      > then you can reach them without parsing Body itself.
                                      >
                                      > I think it should address your concerns, shouldn't it?
                                      >
                                      > Best wishes, Paul.
                                      >
                                      > --- Simon Fell <sfell@...> wrote:
                                      > > This is from the original email that kicked this whole thread off
                                      > >
                                      > > <soap:Body
                                      > > soap:encodingStyle="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
                                      > >     <struct id="1">
                                      > >       <varInt xmlns="">634</varInt>
                                      > >       <varString xmlns="">en stringare</varString>
                                      > >       <varFloat xmlns="">87.5</varFloat>
                                      > >     </struct>
                                      > >     <echoStructResponse xmlns="http://soapinterop.org/">
                                      > >       <Return href="#1" />
                                      > >     </echoStructResponse>
                                      > > </soap:Body>
                                      > >
                                      > > how do you know which element under the Body element is the
                                      > return
                                      > > struct
                                      > > (echoStructResponse in this case), and not just some independent
                                      > > serialization (like struct) ? You can't rely on the name (without
                                      > > being told
                                      > > it via some OOB mechanism), and you can't rely on the position.
                                      > if
                                      > > the root
                                      > > attribute was required, then that would help (as there'd be only
                                      > > one element
                                      > > that was marked as a true root)
                                      > >
                                      > > Cheers
                                      > > Simon
                                      > >
                                      > > -----Original Message-----
                                      > > From: Jake Savin [mailto:jake@...]
                                      > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:13 PM
                                      > > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] id / href
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > I'm having a little trouble visualizing this problem.
                                      > >
                                      > > Simon, could you post an example XML fragment which demonstrates
                                      > > the
                                      > > problem?
                                      > >
                                      > > Thanks, -Jake
                                      > >
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                                    • Paul Kulchenko
                                      Hi, Doug! It IS legal (actually THAT s the place where SOAP::Lite puts multirefs), but spec is clear on that: 4. SOAP Envelope 3. Body The element MUST be
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Apr 5, 2001
                                        Hi, Doug!

                                        It IS legal (actually THAT's the place where SOAP::Lite puts
                                        multirefs), but spec is clear on that:

                                        4. SOAP Envelope
                                        3. Body
                                        The element MUST be present ....
                                        It MUST directly follow the SOAP Header element if present. Otherwise
                                        it MUST be the FIRST immediate child element of the SOAP Envelope
                                        element.

                                        No doubts imho.

                                        As for "top level of serialization" in my opinion the ONLY place can
                                        be titled like that is highest level where you can put the element
                                        and since root can be only one, top level is immediate child of the
                                        root element. Thoughts?

                                        At least it simplifies the situation :))

                                        Best wishes, Paul.

                                        --- Doug Davis <dug@...> wrote:
                                        > yup, so isn't:
                                        > <SOAP-ENV:Body>
                                        > <a:mypart xmlns:a="some-uri">hello</a:mypart>
                                        > <a:mypart xmlns:a="some-uri">howdy</a:mypart>
                                        > </SOAP-ENV:Body>
                                        > legal? If so, what do you do with it?
                                        > -Dug
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Manish Balsara <manishb@...> on 04/05/2001 12:04:07 PM
                                        >
                                        > Please respond to soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                                        >
                                        > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                                        > cc:
                                        > Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] id / href
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Paul
                                        >
                                        > The definition of independent element does not indicate that it has
                                        > to be
                                        > after the body. All it says is "An independent element is any
                                        > element
                                        > appearing at the top level of a serialization". Wouldn't it mean
                                        > that I
                                        > should be able to serialize it inside the body as the top level
                                        > element?
                                        >
                                        > What you suggesting is interesting, because I had always wondered,
                                        > what can one one put after the Body element. Now I know.
                                        >
                                        > manish
                                        >
                                        > On Thu, 5 Apr 2001, Paul Kulchenko wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > <html><body>
                                        > > <tt>
                                        > > Hi, Simon!<BR>
                                        > > <BR>
                                        > > Two observations. First, I believe that spec is about coding<BR>
                                        > > multirefs as INDEPENDENT elements and in my understanding it
                                        > means to<BR>
                                        > > put them AFTER the Body, not inside (it was several long
                                        > discussions<BR>
                                        > > and that is my conclusion on that). So, INSIDE the Body you may
                                        > also<BR>
                                        > > have OTHER elements than method entry, but they'll go AFTER,
                                        > right?<BR>
                                        > > <BR>
                                        > > Also, spec says something that Headers should be self-sufficient,
                                        > for<BR>
                                        > > me that means that if you have shared references between headers
                                        > and<BR>
                                        > > Body (quite possible), they should be encoded either in-place
                                        > inside<BR>
                                        > > the Header, or, again, on top level, so right after the body,
                                        > only<BR>
                                        > > then you can reach them without parsing Body itself. <BR>
                                        > > <BR>
                                        > > I think it should address your concerns, shouldn't it? <BR>
                                        > > <BR>
                                        > > Best wishes, Paul.<BR>
                                        > > <BR>
                                        > > --- Simon Fell <sfell@...> wrote:<BR>
                                        > > > This is from the original email that kicked this whole
                                        > thread
                                        > off<BR>
                                        > > > <BR>
                                        > > > <soap:Body<BR>
                                        > > > soap:encodingStyle="<a href="
                                        > http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
                                        > http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/</a>"><BR>
                                        > > >     <struct id="1"><BR>
                                        > > >       <varInt
                                        > xmlns=""
                                        > >634</varInt><BR>
                                        > > >       <varString
                                        > xmlns=""
                                        > >en stringare</varString><BR>
                                        > > >       <varFloat
                                        > xmlns=""
                                        > >87.5</varFloat><BR>
                                        > > >     </struct><BR>
                                        > > >     <echoStructResponse
                                        > xmlns="<a href="
                                        > http://soapinterop.org/">http://soapinterop.org/</a>"><BR>
                                        > > >       <Return
                                        > href="#1"
                                        > /><BR>
                                        > > >     </echoStructResponse> <BR>
                                        > > > </soap:Body><BR>
                                        > > > <BR>
                                        > > > how do you know which element under the Body element is the
                                        > return<BR>
                                        > > > struct<BR>
                                        > > > (echoStructResponse in this case), and not just some
                                        > independent<BR>
                                        > > > serialization (like struct) ? You can't rely on the name
                                        > (without<BR>
                                        > > > being told<BR>
                                        > > > it via some OOB mechanism), and you can't rely on the
                                        > position.
                                        > if<BR>
                                        > > > the root<BR>
                                        > > > attribute was required, then that would help (as there'd be
                                        > only<BR>
                                        > > > one element<BR>
                                        > > > that was marked as a true root)<BR>
                                        > > > <BR>
                                        > > > Cheers<BR>
                                        > > > Simon<BR>
                                        > > > <BR>
                                        > > > -----Original Message-----<BR>
                                        > > > From: Jake Savin [mailto:jake@...]<BR>
                                        > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:13 PM<BR>
                                        > > > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com<BR>
                                        > > > Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] id / href<BR>
                                        > > > <BR>
                                        > > > <BR>
                                        > > > I'm having a little trouble visualizing this problem.<BR>
                                        > > > <BR>
                                        > > > Simon, could you post an example XML fragment which
                                        > demonstrates<BR>
                                        > > > the<BR>
                                        > > > problem?<BR>
                                        > > > <BR>
                                        > > > Thanks, -Jake<BR>
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                                      • Doug Davis
                                        I wasn t clear (although I m glad you said that it is legal) - what do you do with that msg? I left out any multi-refs on purpose - if your server receives
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Apr 5, 2001
                                          I wasn't clear (although I'm glad you said that
                                          it is legal) - what do you do with that msg? I left
                                          out any multi-refs on purpose - if your server
                                          receives that body what are you going to do with
                                          it? Process just the first as 'the' message and
                                          since there aren't any href's pointing to the 2nd
                                          one it will be ignored? Or should you process
                                          both independently? Or do you take the last one
                                          as 'the' message and ignore the 1st? My point is
                                          there is nothing that says "this" is the main
                                          body element - so what do you do when there is no
                                          clear winner? The spec doesn't specify order
                                          of body elements and even with href's I would
                                          claim that there still isn't a clear "main" one
                                          (one of the holes in the spec).
                                          -Dug


                                          Paul Kulchenko <paulclinger@...> on 04/05/2001 05:14:43 PM

                                          Please respond to soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com

                                          To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                                          cc:
                                          Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] id / href



                                          Hi, Doug!

                                          It IS legal (actually THAT's the place where SOAP::Lite puts
                                          multirefs), but spec is clear on that:

                                          4. SOAP Envelope
                                          3. Body
                                          The element MUST be present ....
                                          It MUST directly follow the SOAP Header element if present. Otherwise
                                          it MUST be the FIRST immediate child element of the SOAP Envelope
                                          element.

                                          No doubts imho.

                                          As for "top level of serialization" in my opinion the ONLY place can
                                          be titled like that is highest level where you can put the element
                                          and since root can be only one, top level is immediate child of the
                                          root element. Thoughts?

                                          At least it simplifies the situation :))

                                          Best wishes, Paul.

                                          --- Doug Davis <dug@...> wrote:
                                          > yup, so isn't:
                                          > <SOAP-ENV:Body>
                                          >   <a:mypart xmlns:a="some-uri">hello</a:mypart>
                                          >   <a:mypart xmlns:a="some-uri">howdy</a:mypart>
                                          > </SOAP-ENV:Body>
                                          > legal?  If so, what do you do with it?
                                          > -Dug
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Manish Balsara <manishb@...> on 04/05/2001 12:04:07 PM
                                          >
                                          > Please respond to soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                                          >
                                          > To:   soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                                          > cc:
                                          > Subject:  RE: [soapbuilders] id / href
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >  Paul
                                          >
                                          > The definition of independent element does not indicate that it has
                                          > to be
                                          > after the body. All it says is "An independent element is any
                                          > element
                                          > appearing at the top level of a serialization". Wouldn't it mean
                                          > that I
                                          > should be able to serialize it inside the body as the top level
                                          > element?
                                          >
                                          > What you suggesting is interesting, because I had always wondered,
                                          > what can one one put after the Body element. Now I know.
                                          >
                                          > manish
                                          >
                                          > On Thu, 5 Apr 2001, Paul Kulchenko wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > <html><body>
                                          > > <tt>
                                          > > Hi, Simon!<BR>
                                          > > <BR>
                                          > > Two observations. First, I believe that spec is about coding<BR>
                                          > > multirefs as INDEPENDENT elements and in my understanding it
                                          > means to<BR>
                                          > > put them AFTER the Body, not inside (it was several long
                                          > discussions<BR>
                                          > > and that is my conclusion on that). So, INSIDE the Body you may
                                          > also<BR>
                                          > > have OTHER elements than method entry, but they'll go AFTER,
                                          > right?<BR>
                                          > > <BR>
                                          > > Also, spec says something that Headers should be self-sufficient,
                                          > for<BR>
                                          > > me that means that if you have shared references between headers
                                          > and<BR>
                                          > > Body (quite possible), they should be encoded either in-place
                                          > inside<BR>
                                          > > the Header, or, again, on top level, so right after the body,
                                          > only<BR>
                                          > > then you can reach them without parsing Body itself. <BR>
                                          > > <BR>
                                          > > I think it should address your concerns, shouldn't it? <BR>
                                          > > <BR>
                                          > > Best wishes, Paul.<BR>
                                          > > <BR>
                                          > > --- Simon Fell <sfell@...> wrote:<BR>
                                          > > > This is from the original email that kicked this whole
                                          > thread
                                          > off<BR>
                                          > > > <BR>
                                          > > > <soap:Body<BR>
                                          > > > soap:encodingStyle="<a href="
                                          > http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
                                          > http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/</a>"><BR>
                                          > > >     <struct id="1"><BR>
                                          > > >       <varInt
                                          > xmlns=""
                                          > >634</varInt><BR>
                                          > > >       <varString
                                          > xmlns=""
                                          > >en stringare</varString><BR>
                                          > > >       <varFloat
                                          > xmlns=""
                                          > >87.5</varFloat><BR>
                                          > > >     </struct><BR>
                                          > > >     <echoStructResponse
                                          > xmlns="<a href="
                                          > http://soapinterop.org/">http://soapinterop.org/</a>"><BR>
                                          > > >       <Return
                                          > href="#1"
                                          > /><BR>
                                          > > >     </echoStructResponse> <BR>
                                          > > > </soap:Body><BR>
                                          > > > <BR>
                                          > > > how do you know which element under the Body element is the
                                          > return<BR>
                                          > > > struct<BR>
                                          > > > (echoStructResponse in this case), and not just some
                                          > independent<BR>
                                          > > > serialization (like struct) ? You can't rely on the name
                                          > (without<BR>
                                          > > > being told<BR>
                                          > > > it via some OOB mechanism), and you can't rely on the
                                          > position.
                                          > if<BR>
                                          > > > the root<BR>
                                          > > > attribute was required, then that would help (as there'd be
                                          > only<BR>
                                          > > > one element<BR>
                                          > > > that was marked as a true root)<BR>
                                          > > > <BR>
                                          > > > Cheers<BR>
                                          > > > Simon<BR>
                                          > > > <BR>
                                          > > > -----Original Message-----<BR>
                                          > > > From: Jake Savin [mailto:jake@...]<BR>
                                          > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:13 PM<BR>
                                          > > > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com<BR>
                                          > > > Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] id / href<BR>
                                          > > > <BR>
                                          > > > <BR>
                                          > > > I'm having a little trouble visualizing this problem.<BR>
                                          > > > <BR>
                                          > > > Simon, could you post an example XML fragment which
                                          > demonstrates<BR>
                                          > > > the<BR>
                                          > > > problem?<BR>
                                          > > > <BR>
                                          > > > Thanks, -Jake<BR>
                                          > > > <BR>
                                          > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor<BR>
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                                        • Paul Kulchenko
                                          Hi, Doug! From second though it s NOT legal for RPC. As soon as method invocation is modelled as struct and struct disallows accessors with the same names this
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Apr 5, 2001
                                            Hi, Doug!

                                            From second though it's NOT legal for RPC. As soon as method
                                            invocation is modelled as struct and struct disallows accessors with
                                            the same names this situation is unlegal.

                                            It is creates similar problem for non-RPC calls:

                                            > > <SOAP-ENV:Body>
                                            > > <a:mypart xmlns:a="some-uri">hello</a:mypart>
                                            > > <a:mypart xmlns:a="some-uri">howdy</a:mypart>
                                            > > </SOAP-ENV:Body>

                                            How will you pass it to application if it's literal encoding? In RPC
                                            case I'll use the first one and ignore the second. Should I fire
                                            error? Probably.

                                            Best wishes, Paul.

                                            --- Doug Davis <dug@...> wrote:
                                            > I wasn't clear (although I'm glad you said that
                                            > it is legal) - what do you do with that msg? I left
                                            > out any multi-refs on purpose - if your server
                                            > receives that body what are you going to do with
                                            > it? Process just the first as 'the' message and
                                            > since there aren't any href's pointing to the 2nd
                                            > one it will be ignored? Or should you process
                                            > both independently? Or do you take the last one
                                            > as 'the' message and ignore the 1st? My point is
                                            > there is nothing that says "this" is the main
                                            > body element - so what do you do when there is no
                                            > clear winner? The spec doesn't specify order
                                            > of body elements and even with href's I would
                                            > claim that there still isn't a clear "main" one
                                            > (one of the holes in the spec).
                                            > -Dug
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Paul Kulchenko <paulclinger@...> on 04/05/2001 05:14:43 PM
                                            >
                                            > Please respond to soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                                            >
                                            > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                                            > cc:
                                            > Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] id / href
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Hi, Doug!
                                            >
                                            > It IS legal (actually THAT's the place where SOAP::Lite puts
                                            > multirefs), but spec is clear on that:
                                            >
                                            > 4. SOAP Envelope
                                            > 3. Body
                                            > The element MUST be present ....
                                            > It MUST directly follow the SOAP Header element if present.
                                            > Otherwise
                                            > it MUST be the FIRST immediate child element of the SOAP Envelope
                                            > element.
                                            >
                                            > No doubts imho.
                                            >
                                            > As for "top level of serialization" in my opinion the ONLY place
                                            > can
                                            > be titled like that is highest level where you can put the element
                                            > and since root can be only one, top level is immediate child of the
                                            > root element. Thoughts?
                                            >
                                            > At least it simplifies the situation :))
                                            >
                                            > Best wishes, Paul.
                                            >
                                            > --- Doug Davis <dug@...> wrote:
                                            > > yup, so isn't:
                                            > > <SOAP-ENV:Body>
                                            > >�� <a:mypart xmlns:a="some-uri">hello</a:mypart>
                                            > >�� <a:mypart xmlns:a="some-uri">howdy</a:mypart>
                                            > > </SOAP-ENV:Body>
                                            > > legal?� If so, what do you do with it?
                                            > > -Dug
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Manish Balsara <manishb@...> on 04/05/2001 12:04:07 PM
                                            > >
                                            > > Please respond to soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                                            > >
                                            > > To:�� soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > cc:
                                            > > Subject:� RE: [soapbuilders] id / href
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >� Paul
                                            > >
                                            > > The definition of independent element does not indicate that it
                                            > has
                                            > > to be
                                            > > after the body. All it says is "An independent element is any
                                            > > element
                                            > > appearing at the top level of a serialization". Wouldn't it mean
                                            > > that I
                                            > > should be able to serialize it inside the body as the top level
                                            > > element?
                                            > >
                                            > > What you suggesting is interesting, because I had always
                                            > wondered,
                                            > > what can one one put after the Body element. Now I know.
                                            > >
                                            > > manish
                                            > >
                                            > > On Thu, 5 Apr 2001, Paul Kulchenko wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > > <html><body>
                                            > > > <tt>
                                            > > > Hi, Simon!<BR>
                                            > > > <BR>
                                            > > > Two observations. First, I believe that spec is about
                                            > coding<BR>
                                            > > > multirefs as INDEPENDENT elements and in my understanding it
                                            > > means to<BR>
                                            > > > put them AFTER the Body, not inside (it was several long
                                            > > discussions<BR>
                                            > > > and that is my conclusion on that). So, INSIDE the Body you may
                                            > > also<BR>
                                            > > > have OTHER elements than method entry, but they'll go AFTER,
                                            > > right?<BR>
                                            > > > <BR>
                                            > > > Also, spec says something that Headers should be
                                            > self-sufficient,
                                            > > for<BR>
                                            > > > me that means that if you have shared references between
                                            > headers
                                            > > and<BR>
                                            > > > Body (quite possible), they should be encoded either in-place
                                            > > inside<BR>
                                            > > > the Header, or, again, on top level, so right after the body,
                                            > > only<BR>
                                            > > > then you can reach them without parsing Body itself. <BR>
                                            > > > <BR>
                                            > > > I think it should address your concerns, shouldn't it? <BR>
                                            > > > <BR>
                                            > > > Best wishes, Paul.<BR>
                                            > > > <BR>
                                            > > > --- Simon Fell <sfell@...> wrote:<BR>
                                            > > > > This is from the original email that kicked this whole
                                            > > thread
                                            > > off<BR>
                                            > > > > <BR>
                                            > > > > <soap:Body<BR>
                                            > > > > soap:encodingStyle="<a href="
                                            > > http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
                                            > > http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/</a>"><BR>
                                            > > > >     <struct
                                            > id="1"><BR>
                                            > > > >       <varInt
                                            > > xmlns=""
                                            > > >634</varInt><BR>
                                            > > > >       <varString
                                            > > xmlns=""
                                            > > >en stringare</varString><BR>
                                            > > > >       <varFloat
                                            > > xmlns=""
                                            > > >87.5</varFloat><BR>
                                            > > > >     </struct><BR>
                                            > > > >     <echoStructResponse
                                            > > xmlns="<a href="
                                            > >
                                            > http://soapinterop.org/">http://soapinterop.org/</a>"><BR>
                                            > > > >       <Return
                                            > > href="#1"
                                            > > /><BR>
                                            > > > >     </echoStructResponse> <BR>
                                            > > > > </soap:Body><BR>
                                            > > > > <BR>
                                            > > > > how do you know which element under the Body element is
                                            > the
                                            > > return<BR>
                                            > > > > struct<BR>
                                            > > > > (echoStructResponse in this case), and not just some
                                            > > independent<BR>
                                            > > > > serialization (like struct) ? You can't rely on the name
                                            > > (without<BR>
                                            > > > > being told<BR>
                                            > > > > it via some OOB mechanism), and you can't rely on the
                                            > > position.
                                            > > if<BR>
                                            > > > > the root<BR>
                                            > > > > attribute was required, then that would help (as there'd
                                            > be
                                            > > only<BR>
                                            > > > > one element<BR>
                                            > > > > that was marked as a true root)<BR>
                                            > > > > <BR>
                                            > > > > Cheers<BR>
                                            > > > > Simon<BR>
                                            > > > > <BR>
                                            > > > > -----Original Message-----<BR>
                                            > > > > From: Jake Savin [mailto:jake@...]<BR>
                                            > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:13 PM<BR>
                                            > > > > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com<BR>
                                            > > > > Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] id / href<BR>
                                            > > > > <BR>
                                            > > > > <BR>
                                            > > > > I'm having a little trouble visualizing this problem.<BR>
                                            > > > > <BR>
                                            > > > > Simon, could you post an example XML fragment which
                                            > > demonstrates<BR>
                                            > > > > the<BR>
                                            > > > > problem?<BR>
                                            > > > > <BR>
                                            > > > > Thanks, -Jake<BR>
                                            > > > > <BR>
                                            > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor<BR>
                                            > > > > <BR>
                                            > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<BR>
                                            > > > > soapbuilders-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<BR>
                                            > > > > <BR>
                                            > > > >  <BR>
                                            > > > > <BR>
                                            > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to<BR>
                                            >
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