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Re: [soapbuilders] [ANN]JAX-WS 2.1 FCS released

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  • Paul Downey
    ... thread killed :) ... Ah, so we learnt earlier how SOAP headers aren t the 80 case, and now should just use just use XML because databinding is evil. I
    Message 1 of 30 , Feb 14, 2007
      On 13 Feb 2007, at 21:25, Davanum Srinivas wrote:


      > Sure. Just press the off button :)

      >
      thread killed :)


      > Did you see this already?
      >
      > http://www.bloglines.com/blog/sanjiva?id=180


      Ah, so we learnt earlier how SOAP headers
      aren't the 80 case, and now should just use
      just use XML because databinding is evil.

      I wonder where the baby is now we've tossed out
      the SOAP bath water.

      Paul
      --
      http://blog.whatfettle.com
    • Davanum Srinivas
      Paul, Use AXIOM, See even the REST guys are using it :) http://blog.chanezon.com/articles/2006/05/31/apache-abdera-and-rome-alea-jacta-est Just look at the
      Message 2 of 30 , Feb 14, 2007
        Paul,

        Use AXIOM, See even the REST guys are using it :)
        http://blog.chanezon.com/articles/2006/05/31/apache-abdera-and-rome-alea-jacta-est

        Just look at the performance numbers for processing a huge feed that
        they posted. Yes, adding soap headers won't slow us (Axis2) down :)

        thanks,
        dims

        On 2/14/07, Paul Downey <paul.downey@...> wrote:
        >
        > On 13 Feb 2007, at 21:25, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
        >
        >
        > > Sure. Just press the off button :)
        >
        > >
        > thread killed :)
        >
        >
        > > Did you see this already?
        > >
        > > http://www.bloglines.com/blog/sanjiva?id=180
        >
        >
        > Ah, so we learnt earlier how SOAP headers
        > aren't the 80 case, and now should just use
        > just use XML because databinding is evil.
        >
        > I wonder where the baby is now we've tossed out
        > the SOAP bath water.
        >
        > Paul
        > --
        > http://blog.whatfettle.com
        >
        >
        >
        > -----------------------------------------------------------------
        > This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >


        --
        Davanum Srinivas :: http://wso2.org/ :: Oxygen for Web Services Developers
      • Arjen Poutsma
        Please, can we stop the product plugging on this list? It s getting rather pathetic. Thanks, Arjen
        Message 3 of 30 , Feb 14, 2007
          Please, can we stop the product plugging on this list? It's getting
          rather pathetic.

          Thanks,

          Arjen

          On 14-feb-2007, at 13:28, Davanum Srinivas wrote:

          > Paul,
          >
          > Use AXIOM, See even the REST guys are using it :)
          > http://blog.chanezon.com/articles/2006/05/31/apache-abdera-and-rome-
          > alea-jacta-est
          >
        • Paul Downey
          Dims ... Yup, I see no SOAP! ... unless you re mad enough to use Addressing and WSSec, apparently:
          Message 4 of 30 , Feb 14, 2007
            Dims


            > Use AXIOM, See even the REST guys are using it :)
            > http://blog.chanezon.com/articles/2006/05/31/apache-abdera-and-rome-
            > alea-jacta-est
            >

            Yup, I see no SOAP!


            > Just look at the performance numbers for processing a huge feed that
            > they posted. Yes, adding soap headers won't slow us (Axis2) down :)
            >


            unless you're mad enough to use Addressing and WSSec, apparently:

            http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/
            message/7316

            Sorry, when you remove databinding, and dismiss headers as being
            heavyweight, I wonder what I'm being asked to get excited about not
            being slow: <xsl:copy-of select="document()/soap:Envelope/soap:Body" /
            > ?

            Paul
          • Anil John
            Paul, SOAP is very much alive, and I agree with your point that when considering web services that are doing any type of real work, you cannot simply assume
            Message 5 of 30 , Feb 14, 2007
              Paul,

              SOAP is very much alive, and I agree with your point that when
              considering web services that are doing any type of real work, you
              cannot simply assume away things like addressing and security.

              Having said that, there is also a tendency, especially from platform and
              toolkit builders, to assume that all of that expensive processing is
              going to be done at the endpoint; in the software.

              I would argue that, that particular view is... Limiting.

              I personally am a firm believer in separating, to the greatest extent
              possible, the business logic (the stuff that travels in the SOAP body)
              from the infrastructure functionality (the stuff that travels in the
              SOAP header). And current technology capabilities allow one to just
              this. As an example, security processing of SOAP messages (digital
              signatures, xml encryption/decryption etc.) is an expensive process that
              I would normally outsource to something like a hardware box like an XML
              Security Gateway which can do that processing at wire speed.

              Which to a great extent reinforces the view that one needs to look at
              performance engineering end to end and should seek to optimize where you
              can get the biggest bang for the buck. And that very well may not be at
              the SOAP layer, but in the business logic processing.

              And taking away databinding does not in any way shape or form take away
              from the usefulness of SOAP. I am coming more and more to the viewpoint
              that moving away from databinding allows one to focus on the core of
              what SOA and web services are about, the exchange of messages. And not
              the issues dealing with the "object-ification" of XML.

              Regards,

              - Anil

              :-
              :- Anil John
              :- http://www.aniltj.com/blog
              :-




              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Downey
              > Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 8:49 AM
              > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] [ANN]JAX-WS 2.1 FCS released
              >
              > Dims
              >
              >
              > > Use AXIOM, See even the REST guys are using it :)
              > > http://blog.chanezon.com/articles/2006/05/31/apache-abdera-and-rome-
              > > alea-jacta-est
              > >
              >
              > Yup, I see no SOAP!
              >
              >
              > > Just look at the performance numbers for processing a huge feed that
              > > they posted. Yes, adding soap headers won't slow us (Axis2) down :)
              > >
              >
              >
              > unless you're mad enough to use Addressing and WSSec, apparently:
              >
              > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/
              > message/7316
              >
              > Sorry, when you remove databinding, and dismiss headers as being
              > heavyweight, I wonder what I'm being asked to get excited about not
              > being slow: <xsl:copy-of
              > select="document()/soap:Envelope/soap:Body" /
              > > ?
              >
              > Paul
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > -----------------------------------------------------------------
              > This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to
              > discuss implementation and interoperability issues. Please
              > stay on-topic.
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Rahul
              I second that!!! Since there are so many messages on this subject and there are passionate views on both sides, maybe they can create a new yahoo group and
              Message 6 of 30 , Feb 14, 2007
                I second that!!! Since there are so many messages on this subject and there are passionate views on both sides, maybe they can create a new yahoo group and take this lively discussion offline.
                 
                Thanks.
                 
                Rahul

                ----- Original Message ----
                From: Arjen Poutsma <apoutsma@...>
                To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 5:23:34 AM
                Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] [ANN]JAX-WS 2.1 FCS released

                Please, can we stop the product plugging on this list? It's getting
                rather pathetic.

                Thanks,

                Arjen

                On 14-feb-2007, at 13:28, Davanum Srinivas wrote:

                > Paul,
                >
                > Use AXIOM, See even the REST guys are using it :)
                > http://blog. chanezon. com/articles/ 2006/05/31/ apache-abdera- and-rome-
                > alea-jacta-est
                >




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