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Re: [soapbuilders] [ANN]JAX-WS 2.1 FCS released

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  • Paul Downey
    ... I m quite frankly bored by this performance peeing contest: 1) Make it run. 2) make it right. 3) make it fast. Axis2, XFire, Glassfish, etc all need to try
    Message 1 of 30 , Feb 13, 2007
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      > That's why i am very interested in seeing the relative performances of
      > the two data bindings under JDK6 using woodstox running under tomcat.
      > (Since kohsuke hinted at possible problem in GlassFish and we prefer
      > woodstox, since we haven't spent any time with SJSXP).

      I'm quite frankly bored by this performance peeing contest:

      1) Make it run.
      2) make it right.
      3) make it fast.

      Axis2, XFire, Glassfish, etc all need to try harder at (2).

      Paul
      --
      http://blog.whatfettle.com
    • Davanum Srinivas
      Sure. Just press the off button :) Did you see this already? http://www.bloglines.com/blog/sanjiva?id=180 -- dims ... -- Davanum Srinivas :: http://wso2.org/
      Message 2 of 30 , Feb 13, 2007
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        Sure. Just press the off button :) Did you see this already?

        http://www.bloglines.com/blog/sanjiva?id=180

        -- dims

        On 2/13/07, Paul Downey <paul.downey@...> wrote:
        > > That's why i am very interested in seeing the relative performances of
        > > the two data bindings under JDK6 using woodstox running under tomcat.
        > > (Since kohsuke hinted at possible problem in GlassFish and we prefer
        > > woodstox, since we haven't spent any time with SJSXP).
        >
        > I'm quite frankly bored by this performance peeing contest:
        >
        > 1) Make it run.
        > 2) make it right.
        > 3) make it fast.
        >
        > Axis2, XFire, Glassfish, etc all need to try harder at (2).
        >
        > Paul
        > --
        > http://blog.whatfettle.com
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > -----------------------------------------------------------------
        > This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >


        --
        Davanum Srinivas :: http://wso2.org/ :: Oxygen for Web Services Developers
      • Paul Downey
        ... thread killed :) ... Ah, so we learnt earlier how SOAP headers aren t the 80 case, and now should just use just use XML because databinding is evil. I
        Message 3 of 30 , Feb 14, 2007
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          On 13 Feb 2007, at 21:25, Davanum Srinivas wrote:


          > Sure. Just press the off button :)

          >
          thread killed :)


          > Did you see this already?
          >
          > http://www.bloglines.com/blog/sanjiva?id=180


          Ah, so we learnt earlier how SOAP headers
          aren't the 80 case, and now should just use
          just use XML because databinding is evil.

          I wonder where the baby is now we've tossed out
          the SOAP bath water.

          Paul
          --
          http://blog.whatfettle.com
        • Davanum Srinivas
          Paul, Use AXIOM, See even the REST guys are using it :) http://blog.chanezon.com/articles/2006/05/31/apache-abdera-and-rome-alea-jacta-est Just look at the
          Message 4 of 30 , Feb 14, 2007
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            Paul,

            Use AXIOM, See even the REST guys are using it :)
            http://blog.chanezon.com/articles/2006/05/31/apache-abdera-and-rome-alea-jacta-est

            Just look at the performance numbers for processing a huge feed that
            they posted. Yes, adding soap headers won't slow us (Axis2) down :)

            thanks,
            dims

            On 2/14/07, Paul Downey <paul.downey@...> wrote:
            >
            > On 13 Feb 2007, at 21:25, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
            >
            >
            > > Sure. Just press the off button :)
            >
            > >
            > thread killed :)
            >
            >
            > > Did you see this already?
            > >
            > > http://www.bloglines.com/blog/sanjiva?id=180
            >
            >
            > Ah, so we learnt earlier how SOAP headers
            > aren't the 80 case, and now should just use
            > just use XML because databinding is evil.
            >
            > I wonder where the baby is now we've tossed out
            > the SOAP bath water.
            >
            > Paul
            > --
            > http://blog.whatfettle.com
            >
            >
            >
            > -----------------------------------------------------------------
            > This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >


            --
            Davanum Srinivas :: http://wso2.org/ :: Oxygen for Web Services Developers
          • Arjen Poutsma
            Please, can we stop the product plugging on this list? It s getting rather pathetic. Thanks, Arjen
            Message 5 of 30 , Feb 14, 2007
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              Please, can we stop the product plugging on this list? It's getting
              rather pathetic.

              Thanks,

              Arjen

              On 14-feb-2007, at 13:28, Davanum Srinivas wrote:

              > Paul,
              >
              > Use AXIOM, See even the REST guys are using it :)
              > http://blog.chanezon.com/articles/2006/05/31/apache-abdera-and-rome-
              > alea-jacta-est
              >
            • Paul Downey
              Dims ... Yup, I see no SOAP! ... unless you re mad enough to use Addressing and WSSec, apparently:
              Message 6 of 30 , Feb 14, 2007
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                Dims


                > Use AXIOM, See even the REST guys are using it :)
                > http://blog.chanezon.com/articles/2006/05/31/apache-abdera-and-rome-
                > alea-jacta-est
                >

                Yup, I see no SOAP!


                > Just look at the performance numbers for processing a huge feed that
                > they posted. Yes, adding soap headers won't slow us (Axis2) down :)
                >


                unless you're mad enough to use Addressing and WSSec, apparently:

                http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/
                message/7316

                Sorry, when you remove databinding, and dismiss headers as being
                heavyweight, I wonder what I'm being asked to get excited about not
                being slow: <xsl:copy-of select="document()/soap:Envelope/soap:Body" /
                > ?

                Paul
              • Anil John
                Paul, SOAP is very much alive, and I agree with your point that when considering web services that are doing any type of real work, you cannot simply assume
                Message 7 of 30 , Feb 14, 2007
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                  Paul,

                  SOAP is very much alive, and I agree with your point that when
                  considering web services that are doing any type of real work, you
                  cannot simply assume away things like addressing and security.

                  Having said that, there is also a tendency, especially from platform and
                  toolkit builders, to assume that all of that expensive processing is
                  going to be done at the endpoint; in the software.

                  I would argue that, that particular view is... Limiting.

                  I personally am a firm believer in separating, to the greatest extent
                  possible, the business logic (the stuff that travels in the SOAP body)
                  from the infrastructure functionality (the stuff that travels in the
                  SOAP header). And current technology capabilities allow one to just
                  this. As an example, security processing of SOAP messages (digital
                  signatures, xml encryption/decryption etc.) is an expensive process that
                  I would normally outsource to something like a hardware box like an XML
                  Security Gateway which can do that processing at wire speed.

                  Which to a great extent reinforces the view that one needs to look at
                  performance engineering end to end and should seek to optimize where you
                  can get the biggest bang for the buck. And that very well may not be at
                  the SOAP layer, but in the business logic processing.

                  And taking away databinding does not in any way shape or form take away
                  from the usefulness of SOAP. I am coming more and more to the viewpoint
                  that moving away from databinding allows one to focus on the core of
                  what SOA and web services are about, the exchange of messages. And not
                  the issues dealing with the "object-ification" of XML.

                  Regards,

                  - Anil

                  :-
                  :- Anil John
                  :- http://www.aniltj.com/blog
                  :-




                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                  > [mailto:soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Downey
                  > Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 8:49 AM
                  > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] [ANN]JAX-WS 2.1 FCS released
                  >
                  > Dims
                  >
                  >
                  > > Use AXIOM, See even the REST guys are using it :)
                  > > http://blog.chanezon.com/articles/2006/05/31/apache-abdera-and-rome-
                  > > alea-jacta-est
                  > >
                  >
                  > Yup, I see no SOAP!
                  >
                  >
                  > > Just look at the performance numbers for processing a huge feed that
                  > > they posted. Yes, adding soap headers won't slow us (Axis2) down :)
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > unless you're mad enough to use Addressing and WSSec, apparently:
                  >
                  > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/
                  > message/7316
                  >
                  > Sorry, when you remove databinding, and dismiss headers as being
                  > heavyweight, I wonder what I'm being asked to get excited about not
                  > being slow: <xsl:copy-of
                  > select="document()/soap:Envelope/soap:Body" /
                  > > ?
                  >
                  > Paul
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -----------------------------------------------------------------
                  > This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to
                  > discuss implementation and interoperability issues. Please
                  > stay on-topic.
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Rahul
                  I second that!!! Since there are so many messages on this subject and there are passionate views on both sides, maybe they can create a new yahoo group and
                  Message 8 of 30 , Feb 14, 2007
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                    I second that!!! Since there are so many messages on this subject and there are passionate views on both sides, maybe they can create a new yahoo group and take this lively discussion offline.
                     
                    Thanks.
                     
                    Rahul

                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: Arjen Poutsma <apoutsma@...>
                    To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 5:23:34 AM
                    Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] [ANN]JAX-WS 2.1 FCS released

                    Please, can we stop the product plugging on this list? It's getting
                    rather pathetic.

                    Thanks,

                    Arjen

                    On 14-feb-2007, at 13:28, Davanum Srinivas wrote:

                    > Paul,
                    >
                    > Use AXIOM, See even the REST guys are using it :)
                    > http://blog. chanezon. com/articles/ 2006/05/31/ apache-abdera- and-rome-
                    > alea-jacta-est
                    >




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