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Re: [soapbuilders] [ANN]JAX-WS 2.1 FCS released

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  • Davanum Srinivas
    Got it!. Yes, i was just paraphrasing your email to me. fully expecting you to chime in if i said something wrong :) -- dims ... -- Davanum Srinivas ::
    Message 1 of 30 , Feb 13, 2007
      Got it!. Yes, i was just paraphrasing your email to me. fully
      expecting you to chime in if i said something wrong :)

      -- dims

      On 2/13/07, Dennis Sosnoski <dms@...> wrote:
      > Davanum Srinivas wrote:
      > >
      > > ... JIBX and ADB take very similar
      > > approach. In JIBX's case, bytecode is generated that uses xpp3 and
      > > populates the fields and in ADB we generate Stax/AXIOM based code to
      > > the same and then compile it. So JIBX and ADB is very comparable.
      > >
      >
      > JiBX bytecode generation is not in any way tied to XPP3 - it implements
      > its own abstraction layer for both parsers and output mechanisms, and
      > supports both XPP3 and StAX parsers (not difficult, since the useful
      > parts of StAX were largely based on XPP3). That point aside, I agree
      > that JiBX and ADB take very similar approaches so I'd expect them to
      > have about equal performance when used in the Axis2 environment. In
      > fact, I think I remember mentioning this to you before your last
      > benchmark results... :-)
      >
      > - Dennis
      >
      >
      > -----------------------------------------------------------------
      > This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >


      --
      Davanum Srinivas :: http://wso2.org/ :: Oxygen for Web Services Developers
    • Paul Downey
      ... I m quite frankly bored by this performance peeing contest: 1) Make it run. 2) make it right. 3) make it fast. Axis2, XFire, Glassfish, etc all need to try
      Message 2 of 30 , Feb 13, 2007
        > That's why i am very interested in seeing the relative performances of
        > the two data bindings under JDK6 using woodstox running under tomcat.
        > (Since kohsuke hinted at possible problem in GlassFish and we prefer
        > woodstox, since we haven't spent any time with SJSXP).

        I'm quite frankly bored by this performance peeing contest:

        1) Make it run.
        2) make it right.
        3) make it fast.

        Axis2, XFire, Glassfish, etc all need to try harder at (2).

        Paul
        --
        http://blog.whatfettle.com
      • Davanum Srinivas
        Sure. Just press the off button :) Did you see this already? http://www.bloglines.com/blog/sanjiva?id=180 -- dims ... -- Davanum Srinivas :: http://wso2.org/
        Message 3 of 30 , Feb 13, 2007
          Sure. Just press the off button :) Did you see this already?

          http://www.bloglines.com/blog/sanjiva?id=180

          -- dims

          On 2/13/07, Paul Downey <paul.downey@...> wrote:
          > > That's why i am very interested in seeing the relative performances of
          > > the two data bindings under JDK6 using woodstox running under tomcat.
          > > (Since kohsuke hinted at possible problem in GlassFish and we prefer
          > > woodstox, since we haven't spent any time with SJSXP).
          >
          > I'm quite frankly bored by this performance peeing contest:
          >
          > 1) Make it run.
          > 2) make it right.
          > 3) make it fast.
          >
          > Axis2, XFire, Glassfish, etc all need to try harder at (2).
          >
          > Paul
          > --
          > http://blog.whatfettle.com
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > -----------------------------------------------------------------
          > This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >


          --
          Davanum Srinivas :: http://wso2.org/ :: Oxygen for Web Services Developers
        • Paul Downey
          ... thread killed :) ... Ah, so we learnt earlier how SOAP headers aren t the 80 case, and now should just use just use XML because databinding is evil. I
          Message 4 of 30 , Feb 14, 2007
            On 13 Feb 2007, at 21:25, Davanum Srinivas wrote:


            > Sure. Just press the off button :)

            >
            thread killed :)


            > Did you see this already?
            >
            > http://www.bloglines.com/blog/sanjiva?id=180


            Ah, so we learnt earlier how SOAP headers
            aren't the 80 case, and now should just use
            just use XML because databinding is evil.

            I wonder where the baby is now we've tossed out
            the SOAP bath water.

            Paul
            --
            http://blog.whatfettle.com
          • Davanum Srinivas
            Paul, Use AXIOM, See even the REST guys are using it :) http://blog.chanezon.com/articles/2006/05/31/apache-abdera-and-rome-alea-jacta-est Just look at the
            Message 5 of 30 , Feb 14, 2007
              Paul,

              Use AXIOM, See even the REST guys are using it :)
              http://blog.chanezon.com/articles/2006/05/31/apache-abdera-and-rome-alea-jacta-est

              Just look at the performance numbers for processing a huge feed that
              they posted. Yes, adding soap headers won't slow us (Axis2) down :)

              thanks,
              dims

              On 2/14/07, Paul Downey <paul.downey@...> wrote:
              >
              > On 13 Feb 2007, at 21:25, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
              >
              >
              > > Sure. Just press the off button :)
              >
              > >
              > thread killed :)
              >
              >
              > > Did you see this already?
              > >
              > > http://www.bloglines.com/blog/sanjiva?id=180
              >
              >
              > Ah, so we learnt earlier how SOAP headers
              > aren't the 80 case, and now should just use
              > just use XML because databinding is evil.
              >
              > I wonder where the baby is now we've tossed out
              > the SOAP bath water.
              >
              > Paul
              > --
              > http://blog.whatfettle.com
              >
              >
              >
              > -----------------------------------------------------------------
              > This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >


              --
              Davanum Srinivas :: http://wso2.org/ :: Oxygen for Web Services Developers
            • Arjen Poutsma
              Please, can we stop the product plugging on this list? It s getting rather pathetic. Thanks, Arjen
              Message 6 of 30 , Feb 14, 2007
                Please, can we stop the product plugging on this list? It's getting
                rather pathetic.

                Thanks,

                Arjen

                On 14-feb-2007, at 13:28, Davanum Srinivas wrote:

                > Paul,
                >
                > Use AXIOM, See even the REST guys are using it :)
                > http://blog.chanezon.com/articles/2006/05/31/apache-abdera-and-rome-
                > alea-jacta-est
                >
              • Paul Downey
                Dims ... Yup, I see no SOAP! ... unless you re mad enough to use Addressing and WSSec, apparently:
                Message 7 of 30 , Feb 14, 2007
                  Dims


                  > Use AXIOM, See even the REST guys are using it :)
                  > http://blog.chanezon.com/articles/2006/05/31/apache-abdera-and-rome-
                  > alea-jacta-est
                  >

                  Yup, I see no SOAP!


                  > Just look at the performance numbers for processing a huge feed that
                  > they posted. Yes, adding soap headers won't slow us (Axis2) down :)
                  >


                  unless you're mad enough to use Addressing and WSSec, apparently:

                  http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/
                  message/7316

                  Sorry, when you remove databinding, and dismiss headers as being
                  heavyweight, I wonder what I'm being asked to get excited about not
                  being slow: <xsl:copy-of select="document()/soap:Envelope/soap:Body" /
                  > ?

                  Paul
                • Anil John
                  Paul, SOAP is very much alive, and I agree with your point that when considering web services that are doing any type of real work, you cannot simply assume
                  Message 8 of 30 , Feb 14, 2007
                    Paul,

                    SOAP is very much alive, and I agree with your point that when
                    considering web services that are doing any type of real work, you
                    cannot simply assume away things like addressing and security.

                    Having said that, there is also a tendency, especially from platform and
                    toolkit builders, to assume that all of that expensive processing is
                    going to be done at the endpoint; in the software.

                    I would argue that, that particular view is... Limiting.

                    I personally am a firm believer in separating, to the greatest extent
                    possible, the business logic (the stuff that travels in the SOAP body)
                    from the infrastructure functionality (the stuff that travels in the
                    SOAP header). And current technology capabilities allow one to just
                    this. As an example, security processing of SOAP messages (digital
                    signatures, xml encryption/decryption etc.) is an expensive process that
                    I would normally outsource to something like a hardware box like an XML
                    Security Gateway which can do that processing at wire speed.

                    Which to a great extent reinforces the view that one needs to look at
                    performance engineering end to end and should seek to optimize where you
                    can get the biggest bang for the buck. And that very well may not be at
                    the SOAP layer, but in the business logic processing.

                    And taking away databinding does not in any way shape or form take away
                    from the usefulness of SOAP. I am coming more and more to the viewpoint
                    that moving away from databinding allows one to focus on the core of
                    what SOA and web services are about, the exchange of messages. And not
                    the issues dealing with the "object-ification" of XML.

                    Regards,

                    - Anil

                    :-
                    :- Anil John
                    :- http://www.aniltj.com/blog
                    :-




                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                    > [mailto:soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Downey
                    > Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 8:49 AM
                    > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] [ANN]JAX-WS 2.1 FCS released
                    >
                    > Dims
                    >
                    >
                    > > Use AXIOM, See even the REST guys are using it :)
                    > > http://blog.chanezon.com/articles/2006/05/31/apache-abdera-and-rome-
                    > > alea-jacta-est
                    > >
                    >
                    > Yup, I see no SOAP!
                    >
                    >
                    > > Just look at the performance numbers for processing a huge feed that
                    > > they posted. Yes, adding soap headers won't slow us (Axis2) down :)
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > unless you're mad enough to use Addressing and WSSec, apparently:
                    >
                    > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/
                    > message/7316
                    >
                    > Sorry, when you remove databinding, and dismiss headers as being
                    > heavyweight, I wonder what I'm being asked to get excited about not
                    > being slow: <xsl:copy-of
                    > select="document()/soap:Envelope/soap:Body" /
                    > > ?
                    >
                    > Paul
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > -----------------------------------------------------------------
                    > This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to
                    > discuss implementation and interoperability issues. Please
                    > stay on-topic.
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Rahul
                    I second that!!! Since there are so many messages on this subject and there are passionate views on both sides, maybe they can create a new yahoo group and
                    Message 9 of 30 , Feb 14, 2007
                      I second that!!! Since there are so many messages on this subject and there are passionate views on both sides, maybe they can create a new yahoo group and take this lively discussion offline.
                       
                      Thanks.
                       
                      Rahul

                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: Arjen Poutsma <apoutsma@...>
                      To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 5:23:34 AM
                      Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] [ANN]JAX-WS 2.1 FCS released

                      Please, can we stop the product plugging on this list? It's getting
                      rather pathetic.

                      Thanks,

                      Arjen

                      On 14-feb-2007, at 13:28, Davanum Srinivas wrote:

                      > Paul,
                      >
                      > Use AXIOM, See even the REST guys are using it :)
                      > http://blog. chanezon. com/articles/ 2006/05/31/ apache-abdera- and-rome-
                      > alea-jacta-est
                      >




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