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Re: [soapbuilders] [ANN]JAX-WS 2.1 FCS released

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  • Dennis Sosnoski
    ... JiBX bytecode generation is not in any way tied to XPP3 - it implements its own abstraction layer for both parsers and output mechanisms, and supports both
    Message 1 of 30 , Feb 13, 2007
      Davanum Srinivas wrote:
      >
      > ... JIBX and ADB take very similar
      > approach. In JIBX's case, bytecode is generated that uses xpp3 and
      > populates the fields and in ADB we generate Stax/AXIOM based code to
      > the same and then compile it. So JIBX and ADB is very comparable.
      >

      JiBX bytecode generation is not in any way tied to XPP3 - it implements
      its own abstraction layer for both parsers and output mechanisms, and
      supports both XPP3 and StAX parsers (not difficult, since the useful
      parts of StAX were largely based on XPP3). That point aside, I agree
      that JiBX and ADB take very similar approaches so I'd expect them to
      have about equal performance when used in the Axis2 environment. In
      fact, I think I remember mentioning this to you before your last
      benchmark results... :-)

      - Dennis
    • Davanum Srinivas
      Got it!. Yes, i was just paraphrasing your email to me. fully expecting you to chime in if i said something wrong :) -- dims ... -- Davanum Srinivas ::
      Message 2 of 30 , Feb 13, 2007
        Got it!. Yes, i was just paraphrasing your email to me. fully
        expecting you to chime in if i said something wrong :)

        -- dims

        On 2/13/07, Dennis Sosnoski <dms@...> wrote:
        > Davanum Srinivas wrote:
        > >
        > > ... JIBX and ADB take very similar
        > > approach. In JIBX's case, bytecode is generated that uses xpp3 and
        > > populates the fields and in ADB we generate Stax/AXIOM based code to
        > > the same and then compile it. So JIBX and ADB is very comparable.
        > >
        >
        > JiBX bytecode generation is not in any way tied to XPP3 - it implements
        > its own abstraction layer for both parsers and output mechanisms, and
        > supports both XPP3 and StAX parsers (not difficult, since the useful
        > parts of StAX were largely based on XPP3). That point aside, I agree
        > that JiBX and ADB take very similar approaches so I'd expect them to
        > have about equal performance when used in the Axis2 environment. In
        > fact, I think I remember mentioning this to you before your last
        > benchmark results... :-)
        >
        > - Dennis
        >
        >
        > -----------------------------------------------------------------
        > This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >


        --
        Davanum Srinivas :: http://wso2.org/ :: Oxygen for Web Services Developers
      • Paul Downey
        ... I m quite frankly bored by this performance peeing contest: 1) Make it run. 2) make it right. 3) make it fast. Axis2, XFire, Glassfish, etc all need to try
        Message 3 of 30 , Feb 13, 2007
          > That's why i am very interested in seeing the relative performances of
          > the two data bindings under JDK6 using woodstox running under tomcat.
          > (Since kohsuke hinted at possible problem in GlassFish and we prefer
          > woodstox, since we haven't spent any time with SJSXP).

          I'm quite frankly bored by this performance peeing contest:

          1) Make it run.
          2) make it right.
          3) make it fast.

          Axis2, XFire, Glassfish, etc all need to try harder at (2).

          Paul
          --
          http://blog.whatfettle.com
        • Davanum Srinivas
          Sure. Just press the off button :) Did you see this already? http://www.bloglines.com/blog/sanjiva?id=180 -- dims ... -- Davanum Srinivas :: http://wso2.org/
          Message 4 of 30 , Feb 13, 2007
            Sure. Just press the off button :) Did you see this already?

            http://www.bloglines.com/blog/sanjiva?id=180

            -- dims

            On 2/13/07, Paul Downey <paul.downey@...> wrote:
            > > That's why i am very interested in seeing the relative performances of
            > > the two data bindings under JDK6 using woodstox running under tomcat.
            > > (Since kohsuke hinted at possible problem in GlassFish and we prefer
            > > woodstox, since we haven't spent any time with SJSXP).
            >
            > I'm quite frankly bored by this performance peeing contest:
            >
            > 1) Make it run.
            > 2) make it right.
            > 3) make it fast.
            >
            > Axis2, XFire, Glassfish, etc all need to try harder at (2).
            >
            > Paul
            > --
            > http://blog.whatfettle.com
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > -----------------------------------------------------------------
            > This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >


            --
            Davanum Srinivas :: http://wso2.org/ :: Oxygen for Web Services Developers
          • Paul Downey
            ... thread killed :) ... Ah, so we learnt earlier how SOAP headers aren t the 80 case, and now should just use just use XML because databinding is evil. I
            Message 5 of 30 , Feb 14, 2007
              On 13 Feb 2007, at 21:25, Davanum Srinivas wrote:


              > Sure. Just press the off button :)

              >
              thread killed :)


              > Did you see this already?
              >
              > http://www.bloglines.com/blog/sanjiva?id=180


              Ah, so we learnt earlier how SOAP headers
              aren't the 80 case, and now should just use
              just use XML because databinding is evil.

              I wonder where the baby is now we've tossed out
              the SOAP bath water.

              Paul
              --
              http://blog.whatfettle.com
            • Davanum Srinivas
              Paul, Use AXIOM, See even the REST guys are using it :) http://blog.chanezon.com/articles/2006/05/31/apache-abdera-and-rome-alea-jacta-est Just look at the
              Message 6 of 30 , Feb 14, 2007
                Paul,

                Use AXIOM, See even the REST guys are using it :)
                http://blog.chanezon.com/articles/2006/05/31/apache-abdera-and-rome-alea-jacta-est

                Just look at the performance numbers for processing a huge feed that
                they posted. Yes, adding soap headers won't slow us (Axis2) down :)

                thanks,
                dims

                On 2/14/07, Paul Downey <paul.downey@...> wrote:
                >
                > On 13 Feb 2007, at 21:25, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
                >
                >
                > > Sure. Just press the off button :)
                >
                > >
                > thread killed :)
                >
                >
                > > Did you see this already?
                > >
                > > http://www.bloglines.com/blog/sanjiva?id=180
                >
                >
                > Ah, so we learnt earlier how SOAP headers
                > aren't the 80 case, and now should just use
                > just use XML because databinding is evil.
                >
                > I wonder where the baby is now we've tossed out
                > the SOAP bath water.
                >
                > Paul
                > --
                > http://blog.whatfettle.com
                >
                >
                >
                > -----------------------------------------------------------------
                > This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >


                --
                Davanum Srinivas :: http://wso2.org/ :: Oxygen for Web Services Developers
              • Arjen Poutsma
                Please, can we stop the product plugging on this list? It s getting rather pathetic. Thanks, Arjen
                Message 7 of 30 , Feb 14, 2007
                  Please, can we stop the product plugging on this list? It's getting
                  rather pathetic.

                  Thanks,

                  Arjen

                  On 14-feb-2007, at 13:28, Davanum Srinivas wrote:

                  > Paul,
                  >
                  > Use AXIOM, See even the REST guys are using it :)
                  > http://blog.chanezon.com/articles/2006/05/31/apache-abdera-and-rome-
                  > alea-jacta-est
                  >
                • Paul Downey
                  Dims ... Yup, I see no SOAP! ... unless you re mad enough to use Addressing and WSSec, apparently:
                  Message 8 of 30 , Feb 14, 2007
                    Dims


                    > Use AXIOM, See even the REST guys are using it :)
                    > http://blog.chanezon.com/articles/2006/05/31/apache-abdera-and-rome-
                    > alea-jacta-est
                    >

                    Yup, I see no SOAP!


                    > Just look at the performance numbers for processing a huge feed that
                    > they posted. Yes, adding soap headers won't slow us (Axis2) down :)
                    >


                    unless you're mad enough to use Addressing and WSSec, apparently:

                    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/
                    message/7316

                    Sorry, when you remove databinding, and dismiss headers as being
                    heavyweight, I wonder what I'm being asked to get excited about not
                    being slow: <xsl:copy-of select="document()/soap:Envelope/soap:Body" /
                    > ?

                    Paul
                  • Anil John
                    Paul, SOAP is very much alive, and I agree with your point that when considering web services that are doing any type of real work, you cannot simply assume
                    Message 9 of 30 , Feb 14, 2007
                      Paul,

                      SOAP is very much alive, and I agree with your point that when
                      considering web services that are doing any type of real work, you
                      cannot simply assume away things like addressing and security.

                      Having said that, there is also a tendency, especially from platform and
                      toolkit builders, to assume that all of that expensive processing is
                      going to be done at the endpoint; in the software.

                      I would argue that, that particular view is... Limiting.

                      I personally am a firm believer in separating, to the greatest extent
                      possible, the business logic (the stuff that travels in the SOAP body)
                      from the infrastructure functionality (the stuff that travels in the
                      SOAP header). And current technology capabilities allow one to just
                      this. As an example, security processing of SOAP messages (digital
                      signatures, xml encryption/decryption etc.) is an expensive process that
                      I would normally outsource to something like a hardware box like an XML
                      Security Gateway which can do that processing at wire speed.

                      Which to a great extent reinforces the view that one needs to look at
                      performance engineering end to end and should seek to optimize where you
                      can get the biggest bang for the buck. And that very well may not be at
                      the SOAP layer, but in the business logic processing.

                      And taking away databinding does not in any way shape or form take away
                      from the usefulness of SOAP. I am coming more and more to the viewpoint
                      that moving away from databinding allows one to focus on the core of
                      what SOA and web services are about, the exchange of messages. And not
                      the issues dealing with the "object-ification" of XML.

                      Regards,

                      - Anil

                      :-
                      :- Anil John
                      :- http://www.aniltj.com/blog
                      :-




                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                      > [mailto:soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Downey
                      > Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 8:49 AM
                      > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] [ANN]JAX-WS 2.1 FCS released
                      >
                      > Dims
                      >
                      >
                      > > Use AXIOM, See even the REST guys are using it :)
                      > > http://blog.chanezon.com/articles/2006/05/31/apache-abdera-and-rome-
                      > > alea-jacta-est
                      > >
                      >
                      > Yup, I see no SOAP!
                      >
                      >
                      > > Just look at the performance numbers for processing a huge feed that
                      > > they posted. Yes, adding soap headers won't slow us (Axis2) down :)
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > unless you're mad enough to use Addressing and WSSec, apparently:
                      >
                      > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/
                      > message/7316
                      >
                      > Sorry, when you remove databinding, and dismiss headers as being
                      > heavyweight, I wonder what I'm being asked to get excited about not
                      > being slow: <xsl:copy-of
                      > select="document()/soap:Envelope/soap:Body" /
                      > > ?
                      >
                      > Paul
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > -----------------------------------------------------------------
                      > This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to
                      > discuss implementation and interoperability issues. Please
                      > stay on-topic.
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Rahul
                      I second that!!! Since there are so many messages on this subject and there are passionate views on both sides, maybe they can create a new yahoo group and
                      Message 10 of 30 , Feb 14, 2007
                        I second that!!! Since there are so many messages on this subject and there are passionate views on both sides, maybe they can create a new yahoo group and take this lively discussion offline.
                         
                        Thanks.
                         
                        Rahul

                        ----- Original Message ----
                        From: Arjen Poutsma <apoutsma@...>
                        To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 5:23:34 AM
                        Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] [ANN]JAX-WS 2.1 FCS released

                        Please, can we stop the product plugging on this list? It's getting
                        rather pathetic.

                        Thanks,

                        Arjen

                        On 14-feb-2007, at 13:28, Davanum Srinivas wrote:

                        > Paul,
                        >
                        > Use AXIOM, See even the REST guys are using it :)
                        > http://blog. chanezon. com/articles/ 2006/05/31/ apache-abdera- and-rome-
                        > alea-jacta-est
                        >




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