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whatever happened to interop testing

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  • Steve Loughran
    Given that SOAPBuilders is effectively dead, and what few endpoints there are left serving up stagnant rpc/enc data, how are SOAP projects doing their interop
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 17 4:06 AM
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      Given that SOAPBuilders is effectively dead, and what few endpoints
      there are left serving up stagnant rpc/enc data, how are SOAP projects
      doing their interop testing these days?

      -steve
    • Glen Daniels
      ... Apparently everyone is waiting until WCF comes out and then they ll make sure they work with that. Nothing else matters, does it? (I m not putting the
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 17 6:22 AM
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        Steve Loughran wrote:
        > Given that SOAPBuilders is effectively dead, and what few endpoints
        > there are left serving up stagnant rpc/enc data, how are SOAP projects
        > doing their interop testing these days?

        Apparently everyone is waiting until WCF comes out and then they'll make
        sure they work with that. Nothing else matters, does it?

        (I'm not putting the smiley in. You decide if I'm kidding.)

        --G

        P.S. Seriously, would any of the other vendors out there be interested
        in a SOAPBuilders interop get-together if Sonic hosted one sometime this
        Spring (tests TBD on this list of course)? Do people still see a need
        for developer-focused interoperability work outside WSI and MS? Discuss.
      • Paul Downey
        ... Genuine COL (Cry-Out-Loud) Of course the chances of them then interoperating with each other remain slim. ... If people have test cases and scenarios for
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 17 6:43 AM
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          On 17 Feb 2006, at 14:22, Glen Daniels wrote:

          > Steve Loughran wrote:
          >> Given that SOAPBuilders is effectively dead, and what few endpoints
          >> there are left serving up stagnant rpc/enc data, how are SOAP
          >> projects
          >> doing their interop testing these days?
          >
          > Apparently everyone is waiting until WCF comes out and then they'll
          > make
          > sure they work with that. Nothing else matters, does it?

          Genuine COL (Cry-Out-Loud)

          Of course the chances of them then interoperating with each other
          remain slim.

          > (I'm not putting the smiley in. You decide if I'm kidding.)
          > P.S. Seriously, would any of the other vendors out there be
          > interested
          > in a SOAPBuilders interop get-together if Sonic hosted one sometime
          > this
          > Spring (tests TBD on this list of course)?

          If people have test cases and scenarios for processing the *contents*
          of messages (you know the bits us customers expect to work, but don't)
          maybe you'd consider submitting them to the W3C XML Schema patterns for
          Databinding WG?

          If there was interest, this WG could assist in holding an
          interoperability
          workshop later in the year?

          > Do people still see a need
          > for developer-focused interoperability work outside WSI and MS?
          > Discuss.

          Having participated and then monitored the WS-I for 2 1/2 years, I've
          yet
          to see any evidence of Interoperability work. It's all procedure, admin
          and marketing efforts, AFAICT.

          I'm told the sample apps is where it happens .. but .. well ..

          And the outcome from these 'plug-fests'?
          Where are they held?

          Going back to Steve's questions, how do we encourage vendors to put
          up and maintain public endpoints for interoperability testing?

          How can we encourage vendors to show how good their tools are in public,
          rather than hiding behind closed doors?

          Paul
          --
          http://blog.whatfettle.com
        • Richard Salz
          Using the WS-I tools and hoping the transitive property of interoperability works. Various point solutions doing WS-xxx interops under the aegis of OASIS
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 17 7:08 AM
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            Using the WS-I tools and hoping the "transitive property of
            interoperability" works.
            Various point solutions doing WS-xxx interops under the aegis of OASIS
            working groups.
            Vendor invites.

            /r$

            --
            SOA Appliance Group
            IBM Application Integration Middleware
          • Anne Thomas Manes
            Paul, In the early days of SOAP and WSDL (i.e., before WS-I), the soapbuilders interopathons were absolutely essential -- just to get basic interop to work.
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 17 7:38 AM
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              Paul,

              In the early days of SOAP and WSDL (i.e., before WS-I), the soapbuilders interopathons were absolutely essential -- just to get basic interop to work. (Perhaps you don't remember how awful interoperability was in 2001.) A typical plug-fest gathered 20-25 developers in a room to test their products and immediately tackle and fix interop issues, then test them again. Rinse and repeat for 2 or more days. Product interoperability was almost instantly improved following a plug-fest. A lot of the rules defined in the WS-I BP were based on the learnings acquired during these plug-fests.

              Now, admittedly, these plug-fests didn't address important interop issues related to nulls, faults, complex model groups (choice, unions, etc), and other issues that I'm hoping the W3C Databinding group will tackle.

              As far as I'm aware, WS-I doesn't sponsor interopathons, which is too bad. I don't think the WS-I profiles and the sample apps do nearly enough to ensure interop. IBM and Microsoft have held a number of interop workshops related to the WS-* extensions, and most OASIS TCs arrange interop workshops and demos. I think these efforts are required to refine the products.

              Anne

              On 2/17/06, Paul Downey <paul.downey@...> wrote:

              On 17 Feb 2006, at 14:22, Glen Daniels wrote:

              > Steve Loughran wrote:
              >> Given that SOAPBuilders is effectively dead, and what few endpoints
              >> there are left serving up stagnant rpc/enc data, how are SOAP
              >> projects
              >> doing their interop testing these days?
              >
              > Apparently everyone is waiting until WCF comes out and then they'll
              > make
              > sure they work with that.  Nothing else matters, does it?

              Genuine COL (Cry-Out-Loud)

              Of course the chances of them then interoperating with each other
              remain slim.

              > (I'm not putting the smiley in.  You decide if I'm kidding.)
              > P.S.  Seriously, would any of the other vendors out there be
              > interested
              > in a SOAPBuilders interop get-together if Sonic hosted one sometime
              > this
              > Spring (tests TBD on this list of course)?

              If people have test cases and scenarios for processing the *contents*
              of messages (you know the bits us customers expect to work, but don't)
              maybe you'd consider submitting them to the W3C XML Schema patterns for
              Databinding WG?

              If there was interest, this WG could assist in holding an
              interoperability
              workshop later in the year?

              > Do people still see a need
              > for developer-focused interoperability work outside WSI and MS?
              > Discuss.

              Having participated and then monitored the WS-I for 2 1/2 years, I've
              yet
              to see any evidence of Interoperability work. It's all procedure, admin
              and marketing efforts, AFAICT.

              I'm told the sample apps is where it happens .. but .. well ..

              And the outcome from these 'plug-fests'?
              Where are they held?

              Going back to Steve's questions, how do we encourage vendors to put
              up and maintain public endpoints for interoperability testing?

              How can we encourage vendors to show how good their tools are in public,
              rather than hiding behind closed doors?

              Paul
              --
              http://blog.whatfettle.com



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            • Kirill Gavrylyuk
              Steve, I think there are plenty of interop endpoints from every vendor that folks test against. Here are those from MSFT (WCF): http://mssoapinterop.org/ilab/
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 17 8:16 AM
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                Steve,
                I think there are plenty of interop endpoints from every vendor that
                folks test against.

                Here are those from MSFT (WCF): http://mssoapinterop.org/ilab/ . The
                next WCF plug-fest is March 7-9th.



                -----Original Message-----
                From: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com]
                On Behalf Of Steve Loughran
                Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 4:06 AM
                To: SOAPBuilders
                Subject: [soapbuilders] whatever happened to interop testing

                Given that SOAPBuilders is effectively dead, and what few endpoints
                there are left serving up stagnant rpc/enc data, how are SOAP projects
                doing their interop testing these days?

                -steve


                -----------------------------------------------------------------
                This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss
                implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
                Yahoo! Groups Links
              • Jorgen Thelin
                ... they ll make sure they work with that. You don t need to wait! - There are Microsoft endpoints available right now that you can test against :-)
                Message 7 of 20 , Feb 17 3:47 PM
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                  > Apparently everyone is waiting until WCF comes out and then

                  they'll make sure they work with that.

                  You don't need to wait! - There are Microsoft endpoints available
                  right now that you can test against :-)
                  http://mssoapinterop.org/ilab/

                  If you want to spend some face-time with our engineers, you are very
                  welcome to attend the WCF Plug-fest in Redmond on 7-9 March.
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/soapbuilders/message/10603

                  We have also floated the idea of some NxN testing events with a few
                  companies recently. Microsoft remains very willing to participate in a
                  suitable event.

                  - Jorgen


                  --- In soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com, Glen Daniels <glen@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Steve Loughran wrote:
                  > > Given that SOAPBuilders is effectively dead, and what few endpoints
                  > > there are left serving up stagnant rpc/enc data, how are SOAP projects
                  > > doing their interop testing these days?
                  >
                  > Apparently everyone is waiting until WCF comes out and then they'll make
                  > sure they work with that. Nothing else matters, does it?
                  >
                  > (I'm not putting the smiley in. You decide if I'm kidding.)
                  >
                  > --G
                  >
                  > P.S. Seriously, would any of the other vendors out there be interested
                  > in a SOAPBuilders interop get-together if Sonic hosted one sometime this
                  > Spring (tests TBD on this list of course)? Do people still see a need
                  > for developer-focused interoperability work outside WSI and MS? Discuss.
                  >

                • Steve Loughran
                  ... Half the soapbuilder round endpoints have atrophied; there is nothing that has replaced them
                  Message 8 of 20 , Feb 18 3:39 AM
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                    On 2/17/06, Kirill Gavrylyuk <kirillg@...> wrote:
                    > Steve,
                    > I think there are plenty of interop endpoints from every vendor that
                    > folks test against.

                    Half the soapbuilder round endpoints have atrophied; there is nothing
                    that has replaced them
                  • Doug Davis
                    Not sure that s really a fair statement. As Kirill pointed out there are endpoints out there its just that a lot of them are focusing on some of the newer
                    Message 9 of 20 , Feb 18 3:58 AM
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                      Not sure that's really a fair statement.  As Kirill pointed out there are endpoints out
                      there its just that a lot of them are focusing on some of the newer WS-* specs.  He
                      gave a url to his - IBM has http://wsi.alphaworks.ibm.com:8080/interop/index.html
                      and I know there are others.  Granted, the soapbuilder round endpoints may not be
                      as used (or even available) as they once were but I don't think its fair to discount
                      the value of these other ones - especially when I can see that they're hit just about
                      every day.  Someone must find value in them.
                      -Doug



                      "Steve Loughran" <steve.loughran.soapbuilders@...>
                      Sent by: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com

                      02/18/2006 06:39 AM

                      Please respond to
                      soapbuilders

                      To
                      soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                      cc
                      Subject
                      Re: [soapbuilders] whatever happened to interop testing





                      On 2/17/06, Kirill Gavrylyuk <kirillg@...> wrote:
                      > Steve,
                      > I think there are plenty of interop endpoints from every vendor that
                      > folks test against.

                      Half the soapbuilder round endpoints have atrophied; there is nothing
                      that has replaced them


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                         http://groups.yahoo.com/group/soapbuilders/

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                    • Anil John
                      The two mentioned so far are: IBM Interop Endpoints WS-RM - WS-Reliabile Messaging - WS-SecureConversation - WS-Trust - WS-Addressing WS-Tx - WS-Coordination -
                      Message 10 of 20 , Feb 18 8:08 AM
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                        The two mentioned so far are:
                         
                        IBM Interop Endpoints
                        WS-RM
                        - WS-Reliabile Messaging
                        - WS-SecureConversation
                        - WS-Trust
                        - WS-Addressing
                        WS-Tx
                        - WS-Coordination
                        - WS-AtomicTransactions
                        - WS-BusinessActivity
                        - WS-Addressing
                        WS-Policy
                        - WS-Policy
                        - WS-Addressing
                         
                        Microsoft WCF Interop Endpoints
                        - Schema
                        - WSDL
                        - MTOM
                        - Addressing
                        - WS-Security 1.0
                        - WS-Security 1.1
                        - WS-Security Converation
                        - WS-Trust
                        - WS-ReliableMessaging
                         
                        So, where would one find the end-points for other toolkits? Especially ones for current production implemenations such as .NET 1.1, 2.0, Axis 1.3 etc.
                         
                        Regards,
                         
                        - Anil
                         


                        From: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Doug Davis
                        Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 7:45 AM
                        To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] whatever happened to interop testing


                        Not sure that's really a fair statement.  As Kirill pointed out there are endpoints out
                        there its just that a lot of them are focusing on some of the newer WS-* specs.  He
                        gave a url to his - IBM has http://wsi.alphaworks.ibm.com:8080/interop/index.html
                        and I know there are others.  Granted, the soapbuilder round endpoints may not be
                        as used (or even available) as they once were but I don't think its fair to discount
                        the value of these other ones - especially when I can see that they're hit just about
                        every day.  Someone must find value in them.
                        -Doug
                      • Steve Loughran
                        ... As usual, the thought of long-haul travel to spend a week in a windowless room with a patchy WLAN fills me with enthusiam, an enthusiasm barely dampened by
                        Message 11 of 20 , Feb 18 10:12 AM
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                          On 2/17/06, Glen Daniels <glen@...> wrote:

                          >
                          > P.S. Seriously, would any of the other vendors out there be interested
                          > in a SOAPBuilders interop get-together if Sonic hosted one sometime this
                          > Spring (tests TBD on this list of course)? Do people still see a need
                          > for developer-focused interoperability work outside WSI and MS? Discuss.
                          >


                          As usual, the thought of long-haul travel to spend a week in a
                          windowless room with a patchy WLAN fills me with enthusiam, an
                          enthusiasm barely dampened by spending last week doing exactly that
                          for standards work, where I took time to say nice things about
                          SOAPBuilders and bad things about WS-I. (attached)

                          The scary thing is that all the non-coding architects in all the
                          working groups actually think that WS-I has solved interop; that the
                          stacks have implemented it and everything is rosy. The results of the
                          WSRF interop were less positive, pointing out that xsd:dateTime is
                          still a source of extreme misunderstanding.

                          At the same time, F2Fs can be good. I note that ApacheCon Europe 2006
                          has just been announced: "ApacheCon Europe 2006 will be held in
                          Dublin, Ireland, at the Burlington Hotel, June 26-30." this will no
                          doubt be preceeded by a hackathon in which apache projects get worked
                          on; there is nothing to stop us doing an interop session in the
                          corner. For those who have not attended an apachecon, they have a bit
                          of a developer flavour, but as they serve alcohol from the 10am break
                          (at least in Germany), its not too dull. There will no doubt be a big
                          axis2 presence, but we would extend an open hand to all other dev
                          teams, open or closed source. I could also put in for a talk "web
                          service interop, where we are now", or a panel "next generation WS
                          stacks" to tie everything together during the main conf.

                          regardless of where or when, this would effectively constitute
                          SOAPBuilders round 6, if I am not mistaken. Let's do longstanding and
                          emergent troublespots

                          -SOAP1.2

                          -doc/lit. All of it. Let's echo xsd:any back; maybe have some
                          equals(xsd:any,xsd:any) to see if two different representations of the
                          same thing match.

                          -WS-A. Addressing, mapping from WS-A address elements ina message to
                          stack addresses., equality tests.

                          -timezones in xsd:dateTime (echoing it doesnt verify the far end
                          actually took it; we need something better like
                          boolean equals(xsd:dateTime date, int year,
                          int month,int day, int hour, int min, int s, int millis,
                          long tzGmtOffsetMinutes)

                          -Attachments in the many flavours (SwA, Dime, MTOM). Something to
                          checksum the results to verify losslessness and correct understanding.

                          -Faulting. All that fancy new SOAP1.2 stuff.

                          -statefulness. So we can see that when an mustUnderstand header is
                          rejected, a side-effecing far end has not actually been called.

                          HTTP things:
                          -multiple cookies in a response being repeated next time
                          -error code handling
                          -no attempt to parse the HTML response coming from an error page
                          unless the content-type is correct (yes, we've all seen that one :)

                          Oh, we could have so much fun. So many things have gone wrong out
                          there since Round 5, things we can test for.

                          -Steve
                        • Simon Fell
                          ... What about people that want to test interop at the body level (or data-binding level if you will) ? When the WS-I killed off soapbuilders, that got lost.
                          Message 12 of 20 , Feb 18 10:54 AM
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                            On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 08:16:27 -0800, in ws you wrote:

                            >Steve,
                            >I think there are plenty of interop endpoints from every vendor that
                            >folks test against.
                            >
                            >Here are those from MSFT (WCF): http://mssoapinterop.org/ilab/ . The
                            >next WCF plug-fest is March 7-9th.

                            What about people that want to test interop at the body level (or
                            data-binding level if you will) ? When the WS-I killed off
                            soapbuilders, that got lost.

                            I'm sure the people that care about WS-Tx are happy there's interop
                            testing for that, but you know that the basics are still flaky (I see
                            this everyday in my day job, don't try to tell me that the basic
                            interop story is all rosey), if the different endpoints can't agree on
                            what minOccurs='0' means in the payload schema, its all for nought.

                            Cheers
                            Simon
                          • Steve Loughran
                            ... Doug, I haven t looked at yours. but I note that the MS scenarios come with the following T&Cs Microsoft grants a limited license to use these Web
                            Message 13 of 20 , Feb 18 11:31 AM
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                              On 2/18/06, Doug Davis <dug@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Not sure that's really a fair statement. As Kirill pointed out there are endpoints out
                              > there its just that a lot of them are focusing on some of the newer WS-* specs. He
                              > gave a url to his - IBM has http://wsi.alphaworks.ibm.com:8080/interop/index.html
                              > and I know there are others. Granted, the soapbuilder round endpoints may not be
                              > as used (or even available) as they once were but I don't think its fair to discount
                              > the value of these other ones - especially when I can see that they're hit just about
                              > every day. Someone must find value in them.
                              > -Doug
                              >
                              >

                              Doug, I haven't looked at yours. but I note that the MS scenarios come
                              with the following T&Cs

                              "Microsoft grants a limited license to use these Web Services Schema
                              and WSDL Interoperability Scenarios for preparation and testing
                              before, during and after author sponsored interoperability plug-fest.
                              No other rights are being granted."

                              That is, its not clear whether you can use the XSD/WSDL for anything
                              other than testing your stack against the WCF stack. I couldnt bring
                              up my own stack supporting the same operations and serving up the same
                              WSDL. So its not exactly on a par with the soapbuilder vision: a UDDI
                              registry full of endpoints that you can test against, all from writing
                              one test client.

                              And, as Simon Fell points out, there are are lot of foundational
                              interop problems that are just being pushed under the carpet by the
                              high-end test suites. I can't reliably send a timestamp to a host on
                              the same box without it arriving an hour out, or relay a SOAPFault
                              without having all the useful diagnostics data dropped on the floor.
                              As someone who does not have any intention to use WSRM or WSTx, its
                              the entry level stuff that hurts me.

                              -steve
                            • Kirill Gavrylyuk
                              If you look closer at http://mssoapinterop.org/ilab/ I think you will find more of the application level interop test endpoints there
                              Message 14 of 20 , Feb 18 11:36 AM
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                                If you look closer at http://mssoapinterop.org/ilab/

                                I think you will find more of the application level interop test
                                endpoints there
                                http://131.107.72.15/SoapWsdl%5FComplexDataTypes%5FXmlFormatter%5FServic
                                e%5FIndigo/
                                http://131.107.72.15/SoapWsdl%5FBaseDataTypes%5FXmlFormatter%5FService%5
                                FIndigo/

                                We and other attendees care a lot about testing schema interop at the
                                WCF plug-fests.

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com]
                                On Behalf Of Simon Fell
                                Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 10:55 AM
                                To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] whatever happened to interop testing

                                On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 08:16:27 -0800, in ws you wrote:

                                >Steve,
                                >I think there are plenty of interop endpoints from every vendor that
                                >folks test against.
                                >
                                >Here are those from MSFT (WCF): http://mssoapinterop.org/ilab/ . The
                                >next WCF plug-fest is March 7-9th.

                                What about people that want to test interop at the body level (or
                                data-binding level if you will) ? When the WS-I killed off
                                soapbuilders, that got lost.

                                I'm sure the people that care about WS-Tx are happy there's interop
                                testing for that, but you know that the basics are still flaky (I see
                                this everyday in my day job, don't try to tell me that the basic
                                interop story is all rosey), if the different endpoints can't agree on
                                what minOccurs='0' means in the payload schema, its all for nought.

                                Cheers
                                Simon


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                                implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
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                              • Kirill Gavrylyuk
                                Steve, about T&Cs, thanks for pointing this out. Their intent is to prevent cases like someone prints the docs, gets excited about interoperability, starts
                                Message 15 of 20 , Feb 18 12:11 PM
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                                  Steve, about T&Cs, thanks for pointing this out.

                                  Their intent is to prevent cases like someone prints the docs, gets
                                  excited about interoperability, starts beating his/her neighbors with
                                  printouts and then those neighbors become upset at Microsoft. No smiley
                                  - nothing surprises me these days.

                                  This shouldn't prevent you from putting up your endpoints using those
                                  scenarios. If we have a language preventing that (which I am not sure is
                                  true), I'll go and make the language fixed.

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com]
                                  On Behalf Of Steve Loughran
                                  Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 11:31 AM
                                  To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] whatever happened to interop testing

                                  On 2/18/06, Doug Davis <dug@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Not sure that's really a fair statement. As Kirill pointed out there
                                  are endpoints out
                                  > there its just that a lot of them are focusing on some of the newer
                                  WS-* specs. He
                                  > gave a url to his - IBM has
                                  http://wsi.alphaworks.ibm.com:8080/interop/index.html
                                  > and I know there are others. Granted, the soapbuilder round endpoints
                                  may not be
                                  > as used (or even available) as they once were but I don't think its
                                  fair to discount
                                  > the value of these other ones - especially when I can see that they're
                                  hit just about
                                  > every day. Someone must find value in them.
                                  > -Doug
                                  >
                                  >

                                  Doug, I haven't looked at yours. but I note that the MS scenarios come
                                  with the following T&Cs

                                  "Microsoft grants a limited license to use these Web Services Schema
                                  and WSDL Interoperability Scenarios for preparation and testing
                                  before, during and after author sponsored interoperability plug-fest.
                                  No other rights are being granted."

                                  That is, its not clear whether you can use the XSD/WSDL for anything
                                  other than testing your stack against the WCF stack. I couldnt bring
                                  up my own stack supporting the same operations and serving up the same
                                  WSDL. So its not exactly on a par with the soapbuilder vision: a UDDI
                                  registry full of endpoints that you can test against, all from writing
                                  one test client.

                                  And, as Simon Fell points out, there are are lot of foundational
                                  interop problems that are just being pushed under the carpet by the
                                  high-end test suites. I can't reliably send a timestamp to a host on
                                  the same box without it arriving an hour out, or relay a SOAPFault
                                  without having all the useful diagnostics data dropped on the floor.
                                  As someone who does not have any intention to use WSRM or WSTx, its
                                  the entry level stuff that hurts me.

                                  -steve


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                                  implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
                                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                                • Kirill Gavrylyuk
                                  Endpoints for other MS web services stacks are listed at: http://mssoapinterop.org/ ________________________________ From: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Feb 18 12:17 PM
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                                    Endpoints for other MS web services stacks are listed at: http://mssoapinterop.org/

                                     


                                    From: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com [mailto: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Anil John
                                    Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 8:08 AM
                                    To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] whatever happened to interop testing

                                     

                                    The two mentioned so far are:

                                     

                                    IBM Interop Endpoints

                                    WS-RM

                                    - WS-Reliabile Messaging

                                    - WS-SecureConversation

                                    - WS-Trust

                                    - WS-Addressing

                                    WS-Tx

                                    - WS-Coordination

                                    - WS-AtomicTransactions

                                    - WS-BusinessActivity

                                    - WS-Addressing

                                    WS-Policy

                                    - WS-Policy

                                    - WS-Addressing

                                    http://wsi.alphaworks.ibm.com:8080/interop/index.html

                                     

                                    Microsoft WCF Interop Endpoints

                                    - Schema

                                    - WSDL

                                    - MTOM

                                    - Addressing

                                    - WS-Security 1.0

                                    - WS-Security 1.1

                                    - WS-Security Converation

                                    - WS-Trust

                                    - WS-ReliableMessaging

                                    http://mssoapinterop.org/ilab/

                                     

                                    So, where would one find the end-points for other toolkits? Especially ones for current production implemenations such as .NET 1.1, 2.0, Axis 1.3 etc.

                                     

                                    Regards,

                                     

                                    - Anil

                                     

                                     


                                    From: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com [mailto: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Doug Davis
                                    Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 7:45 AM
                                    To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] whatever happened to interop testing


                                    Not sure that's really a fair statement.  As Kirill pointed out there are endpoints out
                                    there its just that a lot of them are focusing on some of the newer WS-* specs.  He
                                    gave a url to his - IBM has http://wsi.alphaworks.ibm.com:8080/interop/index.html
                                    and I know there are others.  Granted, the soapbuilder round endpoints may not be
                                    as used (or even available) as they once were but I don't think its fair to discount
                                    the value of these other ones - especially when I can see that they're hit just about
                                    every day.  Someone must find value in them.
                                    -Doug

                                  • Simon Fell
                                    ok, here s your first bug report I send
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Feb 18 1:01 PM
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                                      ok, here's your first bug report

                                      I send
                                      <S:Envelope

                                      xmlns:b="http://schemas.datacontract.org/2004/07/XwsInterop.SoapWsdl.ComplexDataTypes.XmlFormatter.Service.Indigo"
                                      xmlns:S="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/envelope/"
                                      xmlns:a="http://tempuri.org/"
                                      xmlns:XS="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema"
                                      xmlns:XI="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance">
                                      <S:Body><a:inStructSN>
                                      <b:Age XI:type="XS:short">12</b:Age>
                                      <b:ID XI:type="XS:short">12</b:ID>
                                      <b:Male XI:type="XS:boolean">true</b:Male>
                                      </a:inStructSN></S:Body></S:Envelope>

                                      but i get back

                                      <s:Envelope xmlns:s="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/envelope/">
                                      <s:Body><RetStructSNResult xmlns="http://tempuri.org/"
                                      xmlns:i="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance">
                                      <Age
                                      xmlns="http://schemas.datacontract.org/2004/07/XwsInterop.SoapWsdl.ComplexDataTypes.XmlFormatter.Service.Indigo">12</Age>
                                      <ID
                                      xmlns="http://schemas.datacontract.org/2004/07/XwsInterop.SoapWsdl.ComplexDataTypes.XmlFormatter.Service.Indigo">12</ID>
                                      <Male
                                      xmlns="http://schemas.datacontract.org/2004/07/XwsInterop.SoapWsdl.ComplexDataTypes.XmlFormatter.Service.Indigo">true</Male>
                                      <Name i:nil="true"
                                      xmlns="http://schemas.datacontract.org/2004/07/XwsInterop.SoapWsdl.ComplexDataTypes.XmlFormatter.Service.Indigo"/>
                                      </RetStructSNResult></s:Body></s:Envelope>

                                      Notice that I got Name back as i:nil='true' even though I didn't send
                                      it (it is declared as minOccurs='0'). Would appear that Indigo can't
                                      distinguish the different between nil and not occur (which is
                                      important for doc/lit, but not rpc/enc).

                                      BTW, any plans to fix up the bloat caused by all the re declarations
                                      of the namespace ?

                                      Cheers
                                      Simon
                                      www.pocketsoap.com

                                      On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 11:36:35 -0800, in ws you wrote:

                                      >If you look closer at http://mssoapinterop.org/ilab/
                                      >
                                      >I think you will find more of the application level interop test
                                      >endpoints there
                                      >http://131.107.72.15/SoapWsdl%5FComplexDataTypes%5FXmlFormatter%5FServic
                                      >e%5FIndigo/
                                      >http://131.107.72.15/SoapWsdl%5FBaseDataTypes%5FXmlFormatter%5FService%5
                                      >FIndigo/
                                      >
                                      >We and other attendees care a lot about testing schema interop at the
                                      >WCF plug-fests.
                                      >
                                      >-----Original Message-----
                                      >From: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com]
                                      >On Behalf Of Simon Fell
                                      >Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 10:55 AM
                                      >To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                                      >Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] whatever happened to interop testing
                                      >
                                      >On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 08:16:27 -0800, in ws you wrote:
                                      >
                                      >>Steve,
                                      >>I think there are plenty of interop endpoints from every vendor that
                                      >>folks test against.
                                      >>
                                      >>Here are those from MSFT (WCF): http://mssoapinterop.org/ilab/ . The
                                      >>next WCF plug-fest is March 7-9th.
                                      >
                                      >What about people that want to test interop at the body level (or
                                      >data-binding level if you will) ? When the WS-I killed off
                                      >soapbuilders, that got lost.
                                      >
                                      >I'm sure the people that care about WS-Tx are happy there's interop
                                      >testing for that, but you know that the basics are still flaky (I see
                                      >this everyday in my day job, don't try to tell me that the basic
                                      >interop story is all rosey), if the different endpoints can't agree on
                                      >what minOccurs='0' means in the payload schema, its all for nought.
                                      >
                                      >Cheers
                                      >Simon
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                      >This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss
                                      >implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
                                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                      >This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
                                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • Simon Fell
                                      ok, here s your first bug report I send
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Feb 18 2:06 PM
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                                        ok, here's your first bug report

                                        I send
                                        <S:Envelope

                                        xmlns:b="http://schemas.datacontract.org/2004/07/XwsInterop.SoapWsdl.ComplexDataTypes.XmlFormatter.Service.Indigo"
                                        xmlns:S="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/envelope/"
                                        xmlns:a="http://tempuri.org/"
                                        xmlns:XS="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema"
                                        xmlns:XI="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance">
                                        <S:Body><a:inStructSN>
                                        <b:Age XI:type="XS:short">12</b:Age>
                                        <b:ID XI:type="XS:short">12</b:ID>
                                        <b:Male XI:type="XS:boolean">true</b:Male>
                                        </a:inStructSN></S:Body></S:Envelope>

                                        but i get back

                                        <s:Envelope xmlns:s="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/envelope/">
                                        <s:Body><RetStructSNResult xmlns="http://tempuri.org/"
                                        xmlns:i="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance">
                                        <Age
                                        xmlns="http://schemas.datacontract.org/2004/07/XwsInterop.SoapWsdl.ComplexDataTypes.XmlFormatter.Service.Indigo">12</Age>
                                        <ID
                                        xmlns="http://schemas.datacontract.org/2004/07/XwsInterop.SoapWsdl.ComplexDataTypes.XmlFormatter.Service.Indigo">12</ID>
                                        <Male
                                        xmlns="http://schemas.datacontract.org/2004/07/XwsInterop.SoapWsdl.ComplexDataTypes.XmlFormatter.Service.Indigo">true</Male>
                                        <Name i:nil="true"
                                        xmlns="http://schemas.datacontract.org/2004/07/XwsInterop.SoapWsdl.ComplexDataTypes.XmlFormatter.Service.Indigo"/>
                                        </RetStructSNResult></s:Body></s:Envelope>

                                        Notice that I got Name back as i:nil='true' even though I didn't send
                                        it (it is declared as minOccurs='0'). Would appear that Indigo can't
                                        distinguish the different between nil and not occur (which is
                                        important for doc/lit, but not rpc/enc).

                                        BTW, any plans to fix up the bloat caused by all the re declarations
                                        of the namespace ?

                                        Cheers
                                        Simon
                                        www.pocketsoap.com

                                        On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 11:36:35 -0800, in ws you wrote:

                                        >If you look closer at http://mssoapinterop.org/ilab/
                                        >
                                        >I think you will find more of the application level interop test
                                        >endpoints there
                                        >http://131.107.72.15/SoapWsdl%5FComplexDataTypes%5FXmlFormatter%5FServic
                                        >e%5FIndigo/
                                        >http://131.107.72.15/SoapWsdl%5FBaseDataTypes%5FXmlFormatter%5FService%5
                                        >FIndigo/
                                        >
                                        >We and other attendees care a lot about testing schema interop at the
                                        >WCF plug-fests.
                                        >
                                        >-----Original Message-----
                                        >From: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com]
                                        >On Behalf Of Simon Fell
                                        >Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 10:55 AM
                                        >To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                                        >Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] whatever happened to interop testing
                                        >
                                        >On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 08:16:27 -0800, in ws you wrote:
                                        >
                                        >>Steve,
                                        >>I think there are plenty of interop endpoints from every vendor that
                                        >>folks test against.
                                        >>
                                        >>Here are those from MSFT (WCF): http://mssoapinterop.org/ilab/ . The
                                        >>next WCF plug-fest is March 7-9th.
                                        >
                                        >What about people that want to test interop at the body level (or
                                        >data-binding level if you will) ? When the WS-I killed off
                                        >soapbuilders, that got lost.
                                        >
                                        >I'm sure the people that care about WS-Tx are happy there's interop
                                        >testing for that, but you know that the basics are still flaky (I see
                                        >this everyday in my day job, don't try to tell me that the basic
                                        >interop story is all rosey), if the different endpoints can't agree on
                                        >what minOccurs='0' means in the payload schema, its all for nought.
                                        >
                                        >Cheers
                                        >Simon
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                        >This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss
                                        >implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
                                        >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                        >This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
                                        >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • Dennis Sosnoski
                                        ... I agree completely. Given that we re stuck with schema for Web services work (which we are, AFAICS) I d love to see framework developers publish lists of
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Feb 18 6:01 PM
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                                          Simon Fell wrote:

                                          >What about people that want to test interop at the body level (or
                                          >data-binding level if you will) ? When the WS-I killed off
                                          >soapbuilders, that got lost.
                                          >
                                          >I'm sure the people that care about WS-Tx are happy there's interop
                                          >testing for that, but you know that the basics are still flaky (I see
                                          >this everyday in my day job, don't try to tell me that the basic
                                          >interop story is all rosey), if the different endpoints can't agree on
                                          >what minOccurs='0' means in the payload schema, its all for nought.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          I agree completely. Given that we're stuck with schema for Web services
                                          work (which we are, AFAICS) I'd love to see framework developers publish
                                          lists of their known issues with schema handling. So far I haven't seen
                                          anyone do this. I've asked Microsoft about this issue with regard to WCF
                                          on the WS-Builders list, but have not received any public reply.

                                          Anyone have examples of frameworks that admit to their schema weaknesses
                                          up front?

                                          - Dennis
                                        • Steve Loughran
                                          ... I am now at the point in my soap stack works, and where I have some intra-operability between Axis1+Muse for WSA/WSRF support, enough to meet my short term
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Apr 25, 2006
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                                            On 2/18/06, Steve Loughran <steve.loughran.soapbuilders@...> wrote:

                                            > At the same time, F2Fs can be good. I note that ApacheCon Europe 2006
                                            > has just been announced: "ApacheCon Europe 2006 will be held in
                                            > Dublin, Ireland, at the Burlington Hotel, June 26-30." this will no
                                            > doubt be preceeded by a hackathon in which apache projects get worked
                                            > on; there is nothing to stop us doing an interop session in the
                                            > corner. For those who have not attended an apachecon, they have a bit
                                            > of a developer flavour, but as they serve alcohol from the 10am break
                                            > (at least in Germany), its not too dull. There will no doubt be a big
                                            > axis2 presence, but we would extend an open hand to all other dev
                                            > teams, open or closed source. I could also put in for a talk "web
                                            > service interop, where we are now", or a panel "next generation WS
                                            > stacks" to tie everything together during the main conf.
                                            >
                                            > regardless of where or when, this would effectively constitute
                                            > SOAPBuilders round 6, if I am not mistaken. Let's do longstanding and
                                            > emergent troublespots
                                            >
                                            > -SOAP1.2
                                            >
                                            > -doc/lit. All of it. Let's echo xsd:any back; maybe have some
                                            > equals(xsd:any,xsd:any) to see if two different representations of the
                                            > same thing match.
                                            >
                                            > -WS-A. Addressing, mapping from WS-A address elements ina message to
                                            > stack addresses., equality tests.
                                            >
                                            > -timezones in xsd:dateTime (echoing it doesnt verify the far end
                                            > actually took it; we need something better like
                                            > boolean equals(xsd:dateTime date, int year,
                                            > int month,int day, int hour, int min, int s, int millis,
                                            > long tzGmtOffsetMinutes)
                                            >
                                            > -Attachments in the many flavours (SwA, Dime, MTOM). Something to
                                            > checksum the results to verify losslessness and correct understanding.
                                            >
                                            > -Faulting. All that fancy new SOAP1.2 stuff.
                                            >
                                            > -statefulness. So we can see that when an mustUnderstand header is
                                            > rejected, a side-effecing far end has not actually been called.
                                            >
                                            > HTTP things:
                                            > -multiple cookies in a response being repeated next time
                                            > -error code handling
                                            > -no attempt to parse the HTML response coming from an error page
                                            > unless the content-type is correct (yes, we've all seen that one :)
                                            >
                                            > Oh, we could have so much fun. So many things have gone wrong out
                                            > there since Round 5, things we can test for.
                                            >
                                            > -Steve

                                            I am now at the point in my soap stack works, and where I have some
                                            intra-operability between Axis1+Muse for WSA/WSRF support, enough to
                                            meet my short term goals. The WCF endpoints for simple types, faults
                                            and the many, many versions of WSA out there.

                                            ApacheCon Europe is coming up (http://www.eu.apachecon.com/), and
                                            there will presumably be Axis developers as well as myself. If anyone
                                            else is interested in getting together for some interop testing and
                                            fixing then we could do it on the monday/tuesday of the week, at the
                                            invitation-only hackathon part of the conference.

                                            Question is: what are we going to test? what will SOAPBuilders round
                                            six consist of?

                                            I propose the following test areas

                                            -HTTP: bits and bobs underneath the SOAP layer
                                            -SOAP12: envelope, MU headers, faults
                                            -WSA1.0 (how much is optional here?)
                                            -doc/lit XSD

                                            In particular, I want endpoints to generate interesting failures.
                                            endpoints that return text/html to a POST, or return HTML content
                                            after a text+xml header. soapfaults with big complex datasets coming
                                            back, endpoints that return stack traces in the Axis1 namespace, etc,
                                            etc. The kind of thing you get out there, even if you dont want to see
                                            them.

                                            -steve
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