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Re: [soapbuilders] state of the art on interoperability

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  • Darma Muthiayen
    Which style of WSDL should I use? http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/webservices/library/ws-whichwsdl/
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 16 3:37 PM
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      Which style of WSDL should I use?
      http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/webservices/library/ws-whichwsdl/


      J C Lawrence wrote:
      On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:35:39 -0800
      Darma Muthiayen <darma@...> wrote:

      > Can't agree more... at least rpc/encoded had the grace of being
      > "workable" even with .NET, Python, Perl clients, as long as you stick
      > to SOAP-compliant data types and avoid custom serializers.  But even
      > ZSI is branching out of rpc/encoded.

      I'm fairly new to the SOAP encoding scene.  Is there a site which
      discusses the various formats (rpc/encoded, rpc/literal,
      wrapped/literal, document/literal etc) in a fairly even handed way?

      --
      J C Lawrence

    • Nelson Minar
      This has been a great discussion, thank you. I m going to be talking about some of these issues in a month at the upcoming Emerging Technology conference,
      Message 2 of 25 , Feb 16 6:11 PM
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        This has been a great discussion, thank you. I'm going to be talking
        about some of these issues in a month at the upcoming Emerging
        Technology conference,
        <http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/et2005/view/e_sess/5994>

        If anyone else from SOAPBuilders will be there, I'd be happy to meet up.


        Simon Fell said:
        >I think the main reason why folks like Nelson & I see way more
        >problems is because we're building services that are aimed to be used
        >by lots of different people with lots of different tools, whilst the
        >vast majority of web services deployments today are still back office
        >style point to point integrations.

        Yes, I think you're right. It's not so hard to do integration when you
        control both the client and the server. But with something like the
        Google Web APIs or the Google AdWords API we're publishing a service
        to the world and saying "here's the WSDL file, go to it". The result
        is our support team has to learn about every problem in every toolkit.
        And the debugging is tough, because usually the bug reports come from
        users who have never heard of an XML schema and have no idea why all
        they get back is "internal fault" or the like.

        It's a significant practical problem, and I think it's why you see API
        products like Salesforce or eBay distributing client side toolkits
        along with the WSDL files.


        Doug offered:
        >With the endpoint we'll test against anyone who wants to test with us.

        Could you remind me of where to find the endpoint? The Python ZSI guys
        are just about to do a new release, maybe they could take a swing at it.

        There's a cultural problem here, too. Are any of the current Python,
        Perl, or PHP SOAP toolkit developers even on this mailing list? My
        impression is SOAPbuilders is mostly done and current interop work has
        moved to WS-I, but I don't see a lot of open source hackery happening
        in the WS-I world.

        >One of the things that I have run into (in the past) is that when the
        >SOAP stack I was using didn't support a newer feature I almost always
        >found a way to get what I needed by avoiding the "canned" tooling and
        >did a little bit of hand-crafting until the tooling caught up. Would
        >this approach work for you?

        That's what I do for myself, but it's a lot to ask of users to
        customize their SOAP toolkits. If you have to go that far, it's
        probably easier just to skip the SOAP toolkit entirely and fill in an
        XML template. At least with document/literal the XML templates are
        simple to understand.
      • Rich Salz
        ... I m still here, of course, even though my checkins to the Python code are pretty limited. :) You bring up a very interesting point. I wonder how we can
        Message 3 of 25 , Feb 16 8:58 PM
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          > There's a cultural problem here, too. Are any of the current Python,
          > Perl, or PHP SOAP toolkit developers even on this mailing list? My
          > impression is SOAPbuilders is mostly done and current interop work has
          > moved to WS-I, but I don't see a lot of open source hackery happening
          > in the WS-I world.

          I'm still here, of course, even though my checkins to the Python
          code are pretty limited. :)

          You bring up a very interesting point. I wonder how we can address it?

          I'll start by mentioning this on the list (although the ZSI docs
          mention the list in the frontmatter) and see if I can't get more
          folks there to join here. On the WSI front, I could suggest that
          they/we do more outreach to the open source folks. Perhaps they could host
          a mailing list. Note that all the specs and toolkits they release
          are free...
          /r$
          --
          Rich Salz Chief Security Architect
          DataPower Technology http://www.datapower.com
          XS40 XML Security Gateway http://www.datapower.com/products/xs40.html
        • Davanum Srinivas
          Rich, How about we make language bindings for Python, Perl, PHP on top of Axis C++? Would you be interested in helping with this effort? thanks, dims ... --
          Message 4 of 25 , Feb 17 4:55 AM
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            Rich,

            How about we make language bindings for Python, Perl, PHP on top of
            Axis C++? Would you be interested in helping with this effort?

            thanks,
            dims


            On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 23:58:09 -0500 (EST), Rich Salz <rsalz@...> wrote:
            >
            > > There's a cultural problem here, too. Are any of the current Python,
            > > Perl, or PHP SOAP toolkit developers even on this mailing list? My
            > > impression is SOAPbuilders is mostly done and current interop work has
            > > moved to WS-I, but I don't see a lot of open source hackery happening
            > > in the WS-I world.
            >
            > I'm still here, of course, even though my checkins to the Python
            > code are pretty limited. :)
            >
            > You bring up a very interesting point. I wonder how we can address it?
            >
            > I'll start by mentioning this on the list (although the ZSI docs
            > mention the list in the frontmatter) and see if I can't get more
            > folks there to join here. On the WSI front, I could suggest that
            > they/we do more outreach to the open source folks. Perhaps they could host
            > a mailing list. Note that all the specs and toolkits they release
            > are free...
            > /r$
            > --
            > Rich Salz Chief Security Architect
            > DataPower Technology http://www.datapower.com
            > XS40 XML Security Gateway http://www.datapower.com/products/xs40.html
            >
            > -----------------------------------------------------------------
            > This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >


            --
            Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
          • Doug Davis
            ... Check http://wsi.alphaworks.ibm.com:8080/*** where *** is either wsrf, wsrm, wstx or wspolicy and as I said, if you d like another one for some other ws-*
            Message 5 of 25 , Feb 17 5:23 AM
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              Nelson Minar <nelson@...> wrote on 02/16/2005 09:11:30 PM:

              > Doug offered:
              > >With the endpoint we'll test against anyone who wants to test
              with us.
              >
              > Could you remind me of where to find the endpoint? The Python ZSI
              guys
              > are just about to do a new release, maybe they could take a swing
              at it.

              Check http://wsi.alphaworks.ibm.com:8080/***
              where *** is either wsrf, wsrm, wstx or wspolicy
              and as I said, if you'd like another one for some other ws-* spec
              just let me know and I'll see what I can do.  I should point out
              that the wsrm endpoint is a good test of WSA as well since you can
              run it w/o rm turned on, and testing the async part of WSA is critical
              to a fair number of other specs.

              > >One of the things that I have run into (in the past) is that when the
              > >SOAP stack I was using didn't support a newer feature I almost
              always
              > >found a way to get what I needed by avoiding the "canned"
              tooling and
              > >did a little bit of hand-crafting until the tooling caught up.
              Would
              > >this approach work for you?
              >
              > That's what I do for myself, but it's a lot to ask of users to
              > customize their SOAP toolkits. If you have to go that far, it's
              > probably easier just to skip the SOAP toolkit entirely and fill in
              an
              > XML template. At least with document/literal the XML templates are
              > simple to understand.

              I hear ya - I wouldn't go so far as to dump the entire toolkit but I
              can definitely understand the inclination to skip it for processing
              certain bits of the envelope.

              thanks
              -Doug
            • George Rusev
              Hi Doug, I am interested weather you have interoperability endpoint for WS-Security SAML Thank you Georgi Rusev ... __________________________________ Do you
              Message 6 of 25 , Feb 17 8:18 AM
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                Hi Doug,

                I am interested weather you have interoperability
                endpoint for

                WS-Security
                SAML

                Thank you
                Georgi Rusev

                --- Doug Davis <dug@...> wrote:

                > Nelson Minar <nelson@...> wrote on 02/16/2005
                > 09:11:30 PM:
                >
                > > Doug offered:
                > > >With the endpoint we'll test against anyone who
                > wants to test with us.
                > >
                > > Could you remind me of where to find the endpoint?
                > The Python ZSI guys
                > > are just about to do a new release, maybe they
                > could take a swing at it.
                >
                > Check http://wsi.alphaworks.ibm.com:8080/***
                > where *** is either wsrf, wsrm, wstx or wspolicy
                > and as I said, if you'd like another one for some
                > other ws-* spec
                > just let me know and I'll see what I can do. I
                > should point out
                > that the wsrm endpoint is a good test of WSA as well
                > since you can
                > run it w/o rm turned on, and testing the async part
                > of WSA is critical
                > to a fair number of other specs.
                >
                > > >One of the things that I have run into (in the
                > past) is that when the
                > > >SOAP stack I was using didn't support a newer
                > feature I almost always
                > > >found a way to get what I needed by avoiding the
                > "canned" tooling and
                > > >did a little bit of hand-crafting until the
                > tooling caught up. Would
                > > >this approach work for you?
                > >
                > > That's what I do for myself, but it's a lot to ask
                > of users to
                > > customize their SOAP toolkits. If you have to go
                > that far, it's
                > > probably easier just to skip the SOAP toolkit
                > entirely and fill in an
                > > XML template. At least with document/literal the
                > XML templates are
                > > simple to understand.
                >
                > I hear ya - I wouldn't go so far as to dump the
                > entire toolkit but I
                > can definitely understand the inclination to skip it
                > for processing
                > certain bits of the envelope.
                >
                > thanks
                > -Doug
                >




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              • Tomas Bahnik
                If you are interested in WSS interop endpoints, Systinet has old 7 interop scenario endpoints still up and running [1]. List of our live interop endpoints and
                Message 7 of 25 , Feb 18 1:01 AM
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                  If you are interested in WSS interop endpoints, Systinet has old 7 interop
                  scenario endpoints still up and running [1]. List of our live interop
                  endpoints and results can be found at [2]

                  [1] http://soap.systinet.net/ssj/pingservice/PingN (N=1..7)
                  [2] http://soap.systinet.net/interop/

                  Tomas


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "George Rusev" <george_rusev@...>
                  To: <soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 5:18 PM
                  Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] state of the art on interoperability


                  >
                  > Hi Doug,
                  >
                  > I am interested weather you have interoperability
                  > endpoint for
                  >
                  > WS-Security
                  > SAML
                  >
                  > Thank you
                  > Georgi Rusev
                • Rich Salz
                  ... I m not in a position to favor Axis over Gnome s LibXML -- you couldn t pay me enough to step into the middle of that one. :) /r$ -- Rich Salz, Chief
                  Message 8 of 25 , Feb 18 7:41 AM
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                    > How about we make language bindings for Python, Perl, PHP on top of
                    > Axis C++? Would you be interested in helping with this effort?

                    I'm not in a position to favor Axis over Gnome's LibXML -- you couldn't
                    pay me enough to step into the middle of that one. :)

                    /r$
                    --
                    Rich Salz, Chief Security Architect
                    DataPower Technology http://www.datapower.com
                    XS40 XML Security Gateway http://www.datapower.com/products/xs40.html
                  • Davanum Srinivas
                    This one? http://xmlsoft.org/. sorry did not know about them doing latest stuff. Some folks told me that there is not much out there and i was trying to see if
                    Message 9 of 25 , Feb 18 9:03 AM
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                      This one? http://xmlsoft.org/. sorry did not know about them doing
                      latest stuff. Some folks told me that there is not much out there and
                      i was trying to see if there is any interest. If folks are already
                      doing WS-I compliance and SOAP1.1/1.2 etc...More power to them :)

                      -- dims


                      On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:41:16 -0500, Rich Salz <rsalz@...> wrote:
                      > > How about we make language bindings for Python, Perl, PHP on top of
                      > > Axis C++? Would you be interested in helping with this effort?
                      >
                      > I'm not in a position to favor Axis over Gnome's LibXML -- you couldn't
                      > pay me enough to step into the middle of that one. :)
                      >
                      > /r$
                      > --
                      > Rich Salz, Chief Security Architect
                      > DataPower Technology http://www.datapower.com
                      > XS40 XML Security Gateway http://www.datapower.com/products/xs40.html
                      >


                      --
                      Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
                    • Rich Salz
                      ... They re not doing any SOAP stuff. But it might be, err, interesting to host AXIS on top of xmlsoft rather than xerces. :) /r$ -- Rich Salz, Chief Security
                      Message 10 of 25 , Feb 18 9:07 AM
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                        > This one? http://xmlsoft.org/. sorry did not know about them doing
                        > latest stuff.

                        They're not doing any SOAP stuff. But it might be, err, interesting to
                        host AXIS on top of xmlsoft rather than xerces. :)

                        /r$

                        --
                        Rich Salz, Chief Security Architect
                        DataPower Technology http://www.datapower.com
                        XS40 XML Security Gateway http://www.datapower.com/products/xs40.html
                      • Davanum Srinivas
                        Axis/C++ does both xerces and expat. so should not be too difficult to add libxml to the mix if folks want it. -- dims ... -- Davanum Srinivas -
                        Message 11 of 25 , Feb 18 9:14 AM
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                          Axis/C++ does both xerces and expat. so should not be too difficult to
                          add libxml to the mix if folks want it.

                          -- dims


                          On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:07:41 -0500, Rich Salz <rsalz@...> wrote:
                          > > This one? http://xmlsoft.org/. sorry did not know about them doing
                          > > latest stuff.
                          >
                          > They're not doing any SOAP stuff. But it might be, err, interesting to
                          > host AXIS on top of xmlsoft rather than xerces. :)
                          >
                          > /r$
                          >
                          > --
                          > Rich Salz, Chief Security Architect
                          > DataPower Technology http://www.datapower.com
                          > XS40 XML Security Gateway http://www.datapower.com/products/xs40.html
                          >


                          --
                          Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
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