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RE: [soapbuilders] state of the art on interoperability

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  • Doug Davis
    With the endpoint we ll test against anyone who wants to test with us. Our endpoint allows implementations to act either as a client or a server (if those are
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 14, 2005
      With the endpoint we'll test against anyone who wants to test with us.
      Our endpoint allows implementations to act either as a client or a server
      (if those are the proper terms for the tests).  What the other end is
      implemented in is up to the other end.  Anyone is welcome to hit the
      endpoint and if issues are found they manage to find me pretty quickly
      and we figure out  what's going on.

      Since my primary language is not one of the ones you mentioned I
      can't really comment on the ease with which they interop, but as I said
      in a previous note, and I think I speak for most (if not all of us), that if someone
      is using one of those languages and they run into a problem trying to
      interop with an endpoint  they should contact the endpoint owner and I
      bet a resolution can be found pretty fast.  If the problem is with your specific
      SOAP stack then you might have to track down the author of that stack.  

      One of the things that I have run into (in the past) is that when the SOAP
      stack I was using didn't support a newer feature I almost always found
      a way to get what I needed by avoiding the "canned" tooling and did a
      little bit of hand-crafting until the tooling caught up.  Would this approach
      work for you?

      -Doug



      Nelson Minar <nelson@...>

      02/14/2005 02:12 PM

      Please respond to
      soapbuilders

      To
      soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
      cc
      Subject
      RE: [soapbuilders] state of the art on interoperability






      >As for the WS-Needlepoint - not sure what to say.  In the interop
      >events I've been involved in we've never had trouble with the
      >doc/lit side of things.

      What are you testing against?

      The primary problem I have is with Perl, PHP, and Python. These
      languages are often overlooked by "serious systems integrators", but
      they're exactly the right thing for a lot of web service clients. But
      the libraries available for all three platforms still have serious
      deficiencies in WSDL support and in document/literal support.


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    • Simon Fell
      ... While toolkits continue to focus on mapping SOAP/XML to language constructs, there will always be interop problems that arise out of impendence mismatch s
      Message 2 of 25 , Feb 14, 2005
        On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 14:25:52 -0500, in ws you wrote:

        >Hi Nelson!
        >
        >> The primary problem I have is with Perl, PHP, and Python. These
        >> languages are often overlooked by "serious systems integrators", but
        >> they're exactly the right thing for a lot of web service clients. But
        >> the libraries available for all three platforms still have serious
        >> deficiencies in WSDL support and in document/literal support.
        >
        >This will improve over time as those guys start adopting the "wrapped" pattern, which still provides the "RPC-esque" model of
        >operation invocation with parameters, but without the SOAP encoding and explicit RPC rules. WSDL 2.0 has codified the "wrapped"
        >pattern into it's "RPC style", which is simply a processing hint that the XML element representing a particular message has been
        >designed in a "language-safe" way (i.e. it's purely a <sequence> of <elements>).

        While toolkits continue to focus on mapping SOAP/XML to language
        constructs, there will always be interop problems that arise out of
        impendence mismatch's between environments/languages.

        >That said, I'll take this opportunity once again to declare some wistful sadness that more of the community didn't take issue with
        >WS-I's decision to profile RPC/enc services out of their picture of the world. As I've said before here and elsewhere, the level of
        >interop we achieved during the soapbuilders heyday with RPC/enc was significantly easier to reach, and more inclusive of smaller
        >vendors, than anything we ever did with doc/lit. The RPC encoding is actually very useful if you're sending serialized object
        >graphs and care about referential integrity, or if you're using scripting languages like the ones you mention. Getting rid of it
        >was, IMHO, a little more about FUD and a little less about achieving interop - but here we are.

        +1

        >FYI, starting with round 3, the soapbuilders tests did include doc/lit testing, and some of those endpoints are still up:
        >
        >http://www.whitemesa.net/r4/interop4.html
        >http://www.whitemesa.com/r3/interop3.html
        >
        >Best,
        >--Glen

        We (soapbuilders) never really got too far on doc/lit interop testing
        (it just xml it's interopable by default, right?), the tests we did do
        concentrated on structures. Most of the problems i see today
        (particularly between java & .NET) revolve around nil's and
        minOccurs='0'. I've ranted about .NET's messed up support for this in
        the past
        http://www.pocketsoap.com/weblog/2004/07/1461.html
        but pretty much every toolkit out there does it best to mash these 2
        distinct XML conctructs down into a single NULL in the object side.

        I think the main reason why folks like Nelson & I see way more
        problems is because we're building services that are aimed to be used
        by lots of different people with lots of different tools, whilst the
        vast majority of web services deployments today are still back office
        style point to point integrations. That's why MSDN has a bunch of
        article around "how to get X and Y to play nicely together" and there
        are no articles around "how do i get my one service/code base to work
        with 20 different soap stacks all at the same time"

        Cheers
        Simon
      • J C Lawrence
        On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:35:39 -0800 ... I m fairly new to the SOAP encoding scene. Is there a site which discusses the various formats (rpc/encoded,
        Message 3 of 25 , Feb 16, 2005
          On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:35:39 -0800
          Darma Muthiayen <darma@...> wrote:

          > Can't agree more... at least rpc/encoded had the grace of being
          > "workable" even with .NET, Python, Perl clients, as long as you stick
          > to SOAP-compliant data types and avoid custom serializers. But even
          > ZSI is branching out of rpc/encoded.

          I'm fairly new to the SOAP encoding scene. Is there a site which
          discusses the various formats (rpc/encoded, rpc/literal,
          wrapped/literal, document/literal etc) in a fairly even handed way?

          --
          J C Lawrence
          ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas.
          claw@... He lived as a devil, eh?
          http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live.
        • Darma Muthiayen
          Which style of WSDL should I use? http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/webservices/library/ws-whichwsdl/
          Message 4 of 25 , Feb 16, 2005
            Which style of WSDL should I use?
            http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/webservices/library/ws-whichwsdl/


            J C Lawrence wrote:
            On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:35:39 -0800
            Darma Muthiayen <darma@...> wrote:

            > Can't agree more... at least rpc/encoded had the grace of being
            > "workable" even with .NET, Python, Perl clients, as long as you stick
            > to SOAP-compliant data types and avoid custom serializers.  But even
            > ZSI is branching out of rpc/encoded.

            I'm fairly new to the SOAP encoding scene.  Is there a site which
            discusses the various formats (rpc/encoded, rpc/literal,
            wrapped/literal, document/literal etc) in a fairly even handed way?

            --
            J C Lawrence

          • Nelson Minar
            This has been a great discussion, thank you. I m going to be talking about some of these issues in a month at the upcoming Emerging Technology conference,
            Message 5 of 25 , Feb 16, 2005
              This has been a great discussion, thank you. I'm going to be talking
              about some of these issues in a month at the upcoming Emerging
              Technology conference,
              <http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/et2005/view/e_sess/5994>

              If anyone else from SOAPBuilders will be there, I'd be happy to meet up.


              Simon Fell said:
              >I think the main reason why folks like Nelson & I see way more
              >problems is because we're building services that are aimed to be used
              >by lots of different people with lots of different tools, whilst the
              >vast majority of web services deployments today are still back office
              >style point to point integrations.

              Yes, I think you're right. It's not so hard to do integration when you
              control both the client and the server. But with something like the
              Google Web APIs or the Google AdWords API we're publishing a service
              to the world and saying "here's the WSDL file, go to it". The result
              is our support team has to learn about every problem in every toolkit.
              And the debugging is tough, because usually the bug reports come from
              users who have never heard of an XML schema and have no idea why all
              they get back is "internal fault" or the like.

              It's a significant practical problem, and I think it's why you see API
              products like Salesforce or eBay distributing client side toolkits
              along with the WSDL files.


              Doug offered:
              >With the endpoint we'll test against anyone who wants to test with us.

              Could you remind me of where to find the endpoint? The Python ZSI guys
              are just about to do a new release, maybe they could take a swing at it.

              There's a cultural problem here, too. Are any of the current Python,
              Perl, or PHP SOAP toolkit developers even on this mailing list? My
              impression is SOAPbuilders is mostly done and current interop work has
              moved to WS-I, but I don't see a lot of open source hackery happening
              in the WS-I world.

              >One of the things that I have run into (in the past) is that when the
              >SOAP stack I was using didn't support a newer feature I almost always
              >found a way to get what I needed by avoiding the "canned" tooling and
              >did a little bit of hand-crafting until the tooling caught up. Would
              >this approach work for you?

              That's what I do for myself, but it's a lot to ask of users to
              customize their SOAP toolkits. If you have to go that far, it's
              probably easier just to skip the SOAP toolkit entirely and fill in an
              XML template. At least with document/literal the XML templates are
              simple to understand.
            • Rich Salz
              ... I m still here, of course, even though my checkins to the Python code are pretty limited. :) You bring up a very interesting point. I wonder how we can
              Message 6 of 25 , Feb 16, 2005
                > There's a cultural problem here, too. Are any of the current Python,
                > Perl, or PHP SOAP toolkit developers even on this mailing list? My
                > impression is SOAPbuilders is mostly done and current interop work has
                > moved to WS-I, but I don't see a lot of open source hackery happening
                > in the WS-I world.

                I'm still here, of course, even though my checkins to the Python
                code are pretty limited. :)

                You bring up a very interesting point. I wonder how we can address it?

                I'll start by mentioning this on the list (although the ZSI docs
                mention the list in the frontmatter) and see if I can't get more
                folks there to join here. On the WSI front, I could suggest that
                they/we do more outreach to the open source folks. Perhaps they could host
                a mailing list. Note that all the specs and toolkits they release
                are free...
                /r$
                --
                Rich Salz Chief Security Architect
                DataPower Technology http://www.datapower.com
                XS40 XML Security Gateway http://www.datapower.com/products/xs40.html
              • Davanum Srinivas
                Rich, How about we make language bindings for Python, Perl, PHP on top of Axis C++? Would you be interested in helping with this effort? thanks, dims ... --
                Message 7 of 25 , Feb 17, 2005
                  Rich,

                  How about we make language bindings for Python, Perl, PHP on top of
                  Axis C++? Would you be interested in helping with this effort?

                  thanks,
                  dims


                  On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 23:58:09 -0500 (EST), Rich Salz <rsalz@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > There's a cultural problem here, too. Are any of the current Python,
                  > > Perl, or PHP SOAP toolkit developers even on this mailing list? My
                  > > impression is SOAPbuilders is mostly done and current interop work has
                  > > moved to WS-I, but I don't see a lot of open source hackery happening
                  > > in the WS-I world.
                  >
                  > I'm still here, of course, even though my checkins to the Python
                  > code are pretty limited. :)
                  >
                  > You bring up a very interesting point. I wonder how we can address it?
                  >
                  > I'll start by mentioning this on the list (although the ZSI docs
                  > mention the list in the frontmatter) and see if I can't get more
                  > folks there to join here. On the WSI front, I could suggest that
                  > they/we do more outreach to the open source folks. Perhaps they could host
                  > a mailing list. Note that all the specs and toolkits they release
                  > are free...
                  > /r$
                  > --
                  > Rich Salz Chief Security Architect
                  > DataPower Technology http://www.datapower.com
                  > XS40 XML Security Gateway http://www.datapower.com/products/xs40.html
                  >
                  > -----------------------------------------------------------------
                  > This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  --
                  Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
                • Doug Davis
                  ... Check http://wsi.alphaworks.ibm.com:8080/*** where *** is either wsrf, wsrm, wstx or wspolicy and as I said, if you d like another one for some other ws-*
                  Message 8 of 25 , Feb 17, 2005
                    Nelson Minar <nelson@...> wrote on 02/16/2005 09:11:30 PM:

                    > Doug offered:
                    > >With the endpoint we'll test against anyone who wants to test
                    with us.
                    >
                    > Could you remind me of where to find the endpoint? The Python ZSI
                    guys
                    > are just about to do a new release, maybe they could take a swing
                    at it.

                    Check http://wsi.alphaworks.ibm.com:8080/***
                    where *** is either wsrf, wsrm, wstx or wspolicy
                    and as I said, if you'd like another one for some other ws-* spec
                    just let me know and I'll see what I can do.  I should point out
                    that the wsrm endpoint is a good test of WSA as well since you can
                    run it w/o rm turned on, and testing the async part of WSA is critical
                    to a fair number of other specs.

                    > >One of the things that I have run into (in the past) is that when the
                    > >SOAP stack I was using didn't support a newer feature I almost
                    always
                    > >found a way to get what I needed by avoiding the "canned"
                    tooling and
                    > >did a little bit of hand-crafting until the tooling caught up.
                    Would
                    > >this approach work for you?
                    >
                    > That's what I do for myself, but it's a lot to ask of users to
                    > customize their SOAP toolkits. If you have to go that far, it's
                    > probably easier just to skip the SOAP toolkit entirely and fill in
                    an
                    > XML template. At least with document/literal the XML templates are
                    > simple to understand.

                    I hear ya - I wouldn't go so far as to dump the entire toolkit but I
                    can definitely understand the inclination to skip it for processing
                    certain bits of the envelope.

                    thanks
                    -Doug
                  • George Rusev
                    Hi Doug, I am interested weather you have interoperability endpoint for WS-Security SAML Thank you Georgi Rusev ... __________________________________ Do you
                    Message 9 of 25 , Feb 17, 2005
                      Hi Doug,

                      I am interested weather you have interoperability
                      endpoint for

                      WS-Security
                      SAML

                      Thank you
                      Georgi Rusev

                      --- Doug Davis <dug@...> wrote:

                      > Nelson Minar <nelson@...> wrote on 02/16/2005
                      > 09:11:30 PM:
                      >
                      > > Doug offered:
                      > > >With the endpoint we'll test against anyone who
                      > wants to test with us.
                      > >
                      > > Could you remind me of where to find the endpoint?
                      > The Python ZSI guys
                      > > are just about to do a new release, maybe they
                      > could take a swing at it.
                      >
                      > Check http://wsi.alphaworks.ibm.com:8080/***
                      > where *** is either wsrf, wsrm, wstx or wspolicy
                      > and as I said, if you'd like another one for some
                      > other ws-* spec
                      > just let me know and I'll see what I can do. I
                      > should point out
                      > that the wsrm endpoint is a good test of WSA as well
                      > since you can
                      > run it w/o rm turned on, and testing the async part
                      > of WSA is critical
                      > to a fair number of other specs.
                      >
                      > > >One of the things that I have run into (in the
                      > past) is that when the
                      > > >SOAP stack I was using didn't support a newer
                      > feature I almost always
                      > > >found a way to get what I needed by avoiding the
                      > "canned" tooling and
                      > > >did a little bit of hand-crafting until the
                      > tooling caught up. Would
                      > > >this approach work for you?
                      > >
                      > > That's what I do for myself, but it's a lot to ask
                      > of users to
                      > > customize their SOAP toolkits. If you have to go
                      > that far, it's
                      > > probably easier just to skip the SOAP toolkit
                      > entirely and fill in an
                      > > XML template. At least with document/literal the
                      > XML templates are
                      > > simple to understand.
                      >
                      > I hear ya - I wouldn't go so far as to dump the
                      > entire toolkit but I
                      > can definitely understand the inclination to skip it
                      > for processing
                      > certain bits of the envelope.
                      >
                      > thanks
                      > -Doug
                      >




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                    • Tomas Bahnik
                      If you are interested in WSS interop endpoints, Systinet has old 7 interop scenario endpoints still up and running [1]. List of our live interop endpoints and
                      Message 10 of 25 , Feb 18, 2005
                        If you are interested in WSS interop endpoints, Systinet has old 7 interop
                        scenario endpoints still up and running [1]. List of our live interop
                        endpoints and results can be found at [2]

                        [1] http://soap.systinet.net/ssj/pingservice/PingN (N=1..7)
                        [2] http://soap.systinet.net/interop/

                        Tomas


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "George Rusev" <george_rusev@...>
                        To: <soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 5:18 PM
                        Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] state of the art on interoperability


                        >
                        > Hi Doug,
                        >
                        > I am interested weather you have interoperability
                        > endpoint for
                        >
                        > WS-Security
                        > SAML
                        >
                        > Thank you
                        > Georgi Rusev
                      • Rich Salz
                        ... I m not in a position to favor Axis over Gnome s LibXML -- you couldn t pay me enough to step into the middle of that one. :) /r$ -- Rich Salz, Chief
                        Message 11 of 25 , Feb 18, 2005
                          > How about we make language bindings for Python, Perl, PHP on top of
                          > Axis C++? Would you be interested in helping with this effort?

                          I'm not in a position to favor Axis over Gnome's LibXML -- you couldn't
                          pay me enough to step into the middle of that one. :)

                          /r$
                          --
                          Rich Salz, Chief Security Architect
                          DataPower Technology http://www.datapower.com
                          XS40 XML Security Gateway http://www.datapower.com/products/xs40.html
                        • Davanum Srinivas
                          This one? http://xmlsoft.org/. sorry did not know about them doing latest stuff. Some folks told me that there is not much out there and i was trying to see if
                          Message 12 of 25 , Feb 18, 2005
                            This one? http://xmlsoft.org/. sorry did not know about them doing
                            latest stuff. Some folks told me that there is not much out there and
                            i was trying to see if there is any interest. If folks are already
                            doing WS-I compliance and SOAP1.1/1.2 etc...More power to them :)

                            -- dims


                            On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:41:16 -0500, Rich Salz <rsalz@...> wrote:
                            > > How about we make language bindings for Python, Perl, PHP on top of
                            > > Axis C++? Would you be interested in helping with this effort?
                            >
                            > I'm not in a position to favor Axis over Gnome's LibXML -- you couldn't
                            > pay me enough to step into the middle of that one. :)
                            >
                            > /r$
                            > --
                            > Rich Salz, Chief Security Architect
                            > DataPower Technology http://www.datapower.com
                            > XS40 XML Security Gateway http://www.datapower.com/products/xs40.html
                            >


                            --
                            Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
                          • Rich Salz
                            ... They re not doing any SOAP stuff. But it might be, err, interesting to host AXIS on top of xmlsoft rather than xerces. :) /r$ -- Rich Salz, Chief Security
                            Message 13 of 25 , Feb 18, 2005
                              > This one? http://xmlsoft.org/. sorry did not know about them doing
                              > latest stuff.

                              They're not doing any SOAP stuff. But it might be, err, interesting to
                              host AXIS on top of xmlsoft rather than xerces. :)

                              /r$

                              --
                              Rich Salz, Chief Security Architect
                              DataPower Technology http://www.datapower.com
                              XS40 XML Security Gateway http://www.datapower.com/products/xs40.html
                            • Davanum Srinivas
                              Axis/C++ does both xerces and expat. so should not be too difficult to add libxml to the mix if folks want it. -- dims ... -- Davanum Srinivas -
                              Message 14 of 25 , Feb 18, 2005
                                Axis/C++ does both xerces and expat. so should not be too difficult to
                                add libxml to the mix if folks want it.

                                -- dims


                                On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:07:41 -0500, Rich Salz <rsalz@...> wrote:
                                > > This one? http://xmlsoft.org/. sorry did not know about them doing
                                > > latest stuff.
                                >
                                > They're not doing any SOAP stuff. But it might be, err, interesting to
                                > host AXIS on top of xmlsoft rather than xerces. :)
                                >
                                > /r$
                                >
                                > --
                                > Rich Salz, Chief Security Architect
                                > DataPower Technology http://www.datapower.com
                                > XS40 XML Security Gateway http://www.datapower.com/products/xs40.html
                                >


                                --
                                Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
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