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RE: [soapbuilders] .NET, SOAP encoded types and arrays

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  • Eric Rajkovic
    Hi Kirill, I could not resist but ask the other question any plans to support literal, other than by pointing at r2d on gotdotnet ? Eric ... From: Kirill
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 17, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi Kirill,

      I could not resist but ask the other question

      any plans to support literal, other than by pointing at r2d on gotdotnet ?

      Eric

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Kirill Gavrylyuk [mailto:kirillg@...]
      Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 11:48 AM
      To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] .NET, SOAP encoded types and arrays


      Hi Tom,
      Does your WSDL contain xsd:import for soap-encoding schema?

      While we're on the topic, any plans to change your default from encoded to literal?

      Thanks

      >-----Original Message-----
      >From: Tom Jordahl [mailto:tomj@...]
      >Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 11:13 AM
      >To: 'soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com'
      >Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] .NET, SOAP encoded types and arrays
      >
      >
      >
      >Well, that is cool for document/literal web services, but there are
      still
      >*many* toolkits (like say, Axis) that default to rpc/encoded.
      >
      >WS-I says nothing about encoding behaviors (other than not to use
      them).
      >So
      >it doesn't apply here. This is a .NET failure to consume what I think
      is a
      >legitimate rpc/encoded web service.
      >
      >But thanks for playing Chris! :-)
      >
      >--
      >Tom Jordahl
      >Macromedia Server Development
      >
      >> -----Original Message-----
      >> From: Christopher B Ferris [mailto:chrisfer@...]
      >> Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 1:50 PM
      >> To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
      >> Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] .NET, SOAP encoded types and arrays
      >>
      >>
      >> Could be because WS-I BP1.x disallows use of SOAP encoding. It has
      always
      >> been my understanding
      >> that .NET would not support SOAP encoding.
      >>
      >> Bottom line, you want interop, color inside the lines drawn by the
      WS-I
      >> Profiles:-)
      >>
      >> Cheers,
      >>
      >> Christopher Ferris
      >> STSM, Emerging e-business Industry Architecture
      >> email: chrisfer@...
      >> blog: http://webpages.charter.net/chrisfer/blog.html
      >> phone: +1 508 377 9295
      >>
      >> Tom Jordahl <tomj@...> wrote on 12/17/2004 12:20:40 PM:
      >>
      >> > Hello,
      >> >
      >> > Axis recently fixed up its type mapping system and our users have
      >> reported
      >> > some interop problems. Specifically, .NET client does not seem to
      >> > understand the soapenc types that Axis is sending it in SOAP
      encoded
      >> arrays.
      >> >
      >> > Our WSDL is this:
      >> >
      >> > xmlns:soapenc="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/"
      >> >
      >> > <complexType name="ArrayOf_soapenc_string">
      >> > <complexContent>
      >> > <restriction base="soapenc:Array">
      >> > <attribute ref="soapenc:arrayType"
      >> wsdl:arrayType="soapenc:string[]"/>
      >> > </restriction>
      >> > </complexContent>
      >> > </complexType>
      >> >
      >> > For an operation that is simply:
      >> > String[] echo(String[] in)
      >> >
      >> > .NET client sends this (note that it doesn't use the soap encoded
      >> types):
      >> >
      >> > <soap:Body
      >> soap:encodingStyle="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
      >> > <q1:echo xmlns:q1="http://DefaultNamespace">
      >> > <in href="#id1" />
      >> > </q1:echo>
      >> > <soapenc:Array id="id1" soapenc:arrayType="xsd:string[3]">
      >> > <Item>one</Item>
      >> > <Item>two</Item>
      >> > <Item>three</Item>
      >> > </soapenc:Array>
      >> > </soap:Body>
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > Axis 1.2 returns:
      >> >
      >> > <soapenv:Body>
      >> > <ns1:echoResponse
      >> > soapenv:encodingStyle=http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/
      >> > xmlns:ns1="http://DefaultNamespace">
      >> > <echoReturn soapenc:arrayType="soapenc:string[3]"
      >> > xsi:type="soapenc:Array"
      >> > xmlns:soapenc="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
      >> > <item>one</item>
      >> > <item>two</item>
      >> > <item>three</item>
      >> > </echoReturn>
      >> > </ns1:echoResponse>
      >> > </soapenv:Body>
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > .NET reports an error:
      >> > Unhandled Exception: System.InvalidOperationException: There is an
      >error
      >> in
      >> > XML document (1, 308). ---> System.InvalidOperationException: The
      >> specified
      >> > type was not recognized: name='string',
      >> > namespace='http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/', at
      <whoamiReturn
      >> > xmlns=''>.
      >> >
      >> > Actually, C# only says "There is an error in XML document (1,
      311)." -
      >> this
      >> > error is from our user who is using VB.
      >> >
      >> > It appears that only by accident did our previous releases not use
      the
      >> SOAP
      >> > encoded types due to bugs in our code. Now that we fixed them,
      this
      >> shows
      >> > up. :-}
      >> >
      >> > Why is .NET not using the soapenc types? Why is it unable to
      recognize
      >> > these types in a rpc/encoded service? What are other
      implementation
      >> doing
      >> > (particularly JAX-RPC implementation) about the SOAP encoded types?
      >> >
      >> > Thanks for any help/info.
      >> >
      >> > --
      >> > Tom Jordahl
      >> > Wearing his Apache Axis committer hat
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
      >> > This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to
      discuss
      >> implementation and
      >> > interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
      >> >
      >>
      >> >
      >> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
      >> >
      >> > ADVERTISEMENT
      >> > [image removed]
      >> >
      >> > [image removed]
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >> > To visit your group on the web, go to:
      >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/soapbuilders/
      >> >
      >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      >> > soapbuilders-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >> >
      >> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
      Service.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> -----------------------------------------------------------------
      >> This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss
      >> implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >-----------------------------------------------------------------
      >This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss
      >implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
      >Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >



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    • Kirill Gavrylyuk
      Hi Eric, you mean rpc/literal? Our current plan is to support rpc/literal in .Net 2.0 - it s available in 2.0 Beta1 released this summer. ... gotdotnet ? ...
      Message 2 of 17 , Dec 17, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Eric,
        you mean rpc/literal?
        Our current plan is to support rpc/literal in .Net 2.0 - it's available
        in 2.0 Beta1 released this summer.

        >-----Original Message-----
        >From: Eric Rajkovic [mailto:eric.rajkovic@...]
        >Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 12:07 PM
        >To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] .NET, SOAP encoded types and arrays
        >
        >
        >Hi Kirill,
        >
        >I could not resist but ask the other question
        >
        >any plans to support literal, other than by pointing at r2d on
        gotdotnet ?
        >
        >Eric
        >
        >-----Original Message-----
        >From: Kirill Gavrylyuk [mailto:kirillg@...]
        >Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 11:48 AM
        >To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] .NET, SOAP encoded types and arrays
        >
        >
        >Hi Tom,
        >Does your WSDL contain xsd:import for soap-encoding schema?
        >
        >While we're on the topic, any plans to change your default from encoded
        to
        >literal?
        >
        >Thanks
        >
        >>-----Original Message-----
        >>From: Tom Jordahl [mailto:tomj@...]
        >>Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 11:13 AM
        >>To: 'soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com'
        >>Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] .NET, SOAP encoded types and arrays
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>Well, that is cool for document/literal web services, but there are
        >still
        >>*many* toolkits (like say, Axis) that default to rpc/encoded.
        >>
        >>WS-I says nothing about encoding behaviors (other than not to use
        >them).
        >>So
        >>it doesn't apply here. This is a .NET failure to consume what I think
        >is a
        >>legitimate rpc/encoded web service.
        >>
        >>But thanks for playing Chris! :-)
        >>
        >>--
        >>Tom Jordahl
        >>Macromedia Server Development
        >>
        >>> -----Original Message-----
        >>> From: Christopher B Ferris [mailto:chrisfer@...]
        >>> Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 1:50 PM
        >>> To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
        >>> Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] .NET, SOAP encoded types and arrays
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> Could be because WS-I BP1.x disallows use of SOAP encoding. It has
        >always
        >>> been my understanding
        >>> that .NET would not support SOAP encoding.
        >>>
        >>> Bottom line, you want interop, color inside the lines drawn by the
        >WS-I
        >>> Profiles:-)
        >>>
        >>> Cheers,
        >>>
        >>> Christopher Ferris
        >>> STSM, Emerging e-business Industry Architecture
        >>> email: chrisfer@...
        >>> blog: http://webpages.charter.net/chrisfer/blog.html
        >>> phone: +1 508 377 9295
        >>>
        >>> Tom Jordahl <tomj@...> wrote on 12/17/2004 12:20:40 PM:
        >>>
        >>> > Hello,
        >>> >
        >>> > Axis recently fixed up its type mapping system and our users have
        >>> reported
        >>> > some interop problems. Specifically, .NET client does not seem to
        >>> > understand the soapenc types that Axis is sending it in SOAP
        >encoded
        >>> arrays.
        >>> >
        >>> > Our WSDL is this:
        >>> >
        >>> > xmlns:soapenc="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/"
        >>> >
        >>> > <complexType name="ArrayOf_soapenc_string">
        >>> > <complexContent>
        >>> > <restriction base="soapenc:Array">
        >>> > <attribute ref="soapenc:arrayType"
        >>> wsdl:arrayType="soapenc:string[]"/>
        >>> > </restriction>
        >>> > </complexContent>
        >>> > </complexType>
        >>> >
        >>> > For an operation that is simply:
        >>> > String[] echo(String[] in)
        >>> >
        >>> > .NET client sends this (note that it doesn't use the soap encoded
        >>> types):
        >>> >
        >>> > <soap:Body
        >>> soap:encodingStyle="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
        >>> > <q1:echo xmlns:q1="http://DefaultNamespace">
        >>> > <in href="#id1" />
        >>> > </q1:echo>
        >>> > <soapenc:Array id="id1" soapenc:arrayType="xsd:string[3]">
        >>> > <Item>one</Item>
        >>> > <Item>two</Item>
        >>> > <Item>three</Item>
        >>> > </soapenc:Array>
        >>> > </soap:Body>
        >>> >
        >>> >
        >>> > Axis 1.2 returns:
        >>> >
        >>> > <soapenv:Body>
        >>> > <ns1:echoResponse
        >>> >
        soapenv:encodingStyle=http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/
        >>> > xmlns:ns1="http://DefaultNamespace">
        >>> > <echoReturn soapenc:arrayType="soapenc:string[3]"
        >>> > xsi:type="soapenc:Array"
        >>> > xmlns:soapenc="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
        >>> > <item>one</item>
        >>> > <item>two</item>
        >>> > <item>three</item>
        >>> > </echoReturn>
        >>> > </ns1:echoResponse>
        >>> > </soapenv:Body>
        >>> >
        >>> >
        >>> > .NET reports an error:
        >>> > Unhandled Exception: System.InvalidOperationException: There is an
        >>error
        >>> in
        >>> > XML document (1, 308). ---> System.InvalidOperationException: The
        >>> specified
        >>> > type was not recognized: name='string',
        >>> > namespace='http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/', at
        ><whoamiReturn
        >>> > xmlns=''>.
        >>> >
        >>> > Actually, C# only says "There is an error in XML document (1,
        >311)." -
        >>> this
        >>> > error is from our user who is using VB.
        >>> >
        >>> > It appears that only by accident did our previous releases not use
        >the
        >>> SOAP
        >>> > encoded types due to bugs in our code. Now that we fixed them,
        >this
        >>> shows
        >>> > up. :-}
        >>> >
        >>> > Why is .NET not using the soapenc types? Why is it unable to
        >recognize
        >>> > these types in a rpc/encoded service? What are other
        >implementation
        >>> doing
        >>> > (particularly JAX-RPC implementation) about the SOAP encoded
        types?
        >>> >
        >>> > Thanks for any help/info.
        >>> >
        >>> > --
        >>> > Tom Jordahl
        >>> > Wearing his Apache Axis committer hat
        >>> >
        >>> >
        >>> >
        >>> >
        >>> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
        >>> > This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to
        >discuss
        >>> implementation and
        >>> > interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
        >>> >
        >>>
        >>> >
        >>> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        >>> >
        >>> > ADVERTISEMENT
        >>> > [image removed]
        >>> >
        >>> > [image removed]
        >>> >
        >>> >
        >>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >>> > To visit your group on the web, go to:
        >>> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/soapbuilders/
        >>> >
        >>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        >>> > soapbuilders-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >>> >
        >>> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        >Service.
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
        >>> This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to
        discuss
        >>> implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
        >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>-----------------------------------------------------------------
        >>This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss
        >>implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
        >>Yahoo! Groups Links
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >-----------------------------------------------------------------
        >This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss
        >implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >-----------------------------------------------------------------
        >This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss
        >implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Eric Rajkovic
        Yes, it s what I meant. Thanks Eric ... From: Kirill Gavrylyuk [mailto:kirillg@microsoft.com] Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 12:16 PM To:
        Message 3 of 17 , Dec 17, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          Yes, it's what I meant.

          Thanks
          Eric

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Kirill Gavrylyuk [mailto:kirillg@...]
          Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 12:16 PM
          To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] .NET, SOAP encoded types and arrays


          Hi Eric,
          you mean rpc/literal?
          Our current plan is to support rpc/literal in .Net 2.0 - it's available in 2.0 Beta1 released this summer.

          >-----Original Message-----
          >From: Eric Rajkovic [mailto:eric.rajkovic@...]
          >Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 12:07 PM
          >To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] .NET, SOAP encoded types and arrays
          >
          >
          >Hi Kirill,
          >
          >I could not resist but ask the other question
          >
          >any plans to support literal, other than by pointing at r2d on
          gotdotnet ?
          >
          >Eric
          >
          >-----Original Message-----
          >From: Kirill Gavrylyuk [mailto:kirillg@...]
          >Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 11:48 AM
          >To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] .NET, SOAP encoded types and arrays
          >
          >
          >Hi Tom,
          >Does your WSDL contain xsd:import for soap-encoding schema?
          >
          >While we're on the topic, any plans to change your default from encoded
          to
          >literal?
          >
          >Thanks
          >
          >>-----Original Message-----
          >>From: Tom Jordahl [mailto:tomj@...]
          >>Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 11:13 AM
          >>To: 'soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com'
          >>Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] .NET, SOAP encoded types and arrays
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>Well, that is cool for document/literal web services, but there are
          >still
          >>*many* toolkits (like say, Axis) that default to rpc/encoded.
          >>
          >>WS-I says nothing about encoding behaviors (other than not to use
          >them).
          >>So
          >>it doesn't apply here. This is a .NET failure to consume what I think
          >is a
          >>legitimate rpc/encoded web service.
          >>
          >>But thanks for playing Chris! :-)
          >>
          >>--
          >>Tom Jordahl
          >>Macromedia Server Development
          >>
          >>> -----Original Message-----
          >>> From: Christopher B Ferris [mailto:chrisfer@...]
          >>> Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 1:50 PM
          >>> To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
          >>> Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] .NET, SOAP encoded types and arrays
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> Could be because WS-I BP1.x disallows use of SOAP encoding. It has
          >always
          >>> been my understanding
          >>> that .NET would not support SOAP encoding.
          >>>
          >>> Bottom line, you want interop, color inside the lines drawn by the
          >WS-I
          >>> Profiles:-)
          >>>
          >>> Cheers,
          >>>
          >>> Christopher Ferris
          >>> STSM, Emerging e-business Industry Architecture
          >>> email: chrisfer@...
          >>> blog: http://webpages.charter.net/chrisfer/blog.html
          >>> phone: +1 508 377 9295
          >>>
          >>> Tom Jordahl <tomj@...> wrote on 12/17/2004 12:20:40 PM:
          >>>
          >>> > Hello,
          >>> >
          >>> > Axis recently fixed up its type mapping system and our users have
          >>> reported
          >>> > some interop problems. Specifically, .NET client does not seem to
          >>> > understand the soapenc types that Axis is sending it in SOAP
          >encoded
          >>> arrays.
          >>> >
          >>> > Our WSDL is this:
          >>> >
          >>> > xmlns:soapenc="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/"
          >>> >
          >>> > <complexType name="ArrayOf_soapenc_string">
          >>> > <complexContent>
          >>> > <restriction base="soapenc:Array">
          >>> > <attribute ref="soapenc:arrayType"
          >>> wsdl:arrayType="soapenc:string[]"/>
          >>> > </restriction>
          >>> > </complexContent>
          >>> > </complexType>
          >>> >
          >>> > For an operation that is simply:
          >>> > String[] echo(String[] in)
          >>> >
          >>> > .NET client sends this (note that it doesn't use the soap encoded
          >>> types):
          >>> >
          >>> > <soap:Body
          >>> soap:encodingStyle="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
          >>> > <q1:echo xmlns:q1="http://DefaultNamespace">
          >>> > <in href="#id1" />
          >>> > </q1:echo>
          >>> > <soapenc:Array id="id1" soapenc:arrayType="xsd:string[3]">
          >>> > <Item>one</Item>
          >>> > <Item>two</Item>
          >>> > <Item>three</Item>
          >>> > </soapenc:Array>
          >>> > </soap:Body>
          >>> >
          >>> >
          >>> > Axis 1.2 returns:
          >>> >
          >>> > <soapenv:Body>
          >>> > <ns1:echoResponse
          >>> >
          soapenv:encodingStyle=http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/
          >>> > xmlns:ns1="http://DefaultNamespace">
          >>> > <echoReturn soapenc:arrayType="soapenc:string[3]"
          >>> > xsi:type="soapenc:Array"
          >>> > xmlns:soapenc="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
          >>> > <item>one</item>
          >>> > <item>two</item>
          >>> > <item>three</item>
          >>> > </echoReturn>
          >>> > </ns1:echoResponse>
          >>> > </soapenv:Body>
          >>> >
          >>> >
          >>> > .NET reports an error:
          >>> > Unhandled Exception: System.InvalidOperationException: There is an
          >>error
          >>> in
          >>> > XML document (1, 308). ---> System.InvalidOperationException: The
          >>> specified
          >>> > type was not recognized: name='string',
          >>> > namespace='http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/', at
          ><whoamiReturn
          >>> > xmlns=''>.
          >>> >
          >>> > Actually, C# only says "There is an error in XML document (1,
          >311)." -
          >>> this
          >>> > error is from our user who is using VB.
          >>> >
          >>> > It appears that only by accident did our previous releases not use
          >the
          >>> SOAP
          >>> > encoded types due to bugs in our code. Now that we fixed them,
          >this
          >>> shows
          >>> > up. :-}
          >>> >
          >>> > Why is .NET not using the soapenc types? Why is it unable to
          >recognize
          >>> > these types in a rpc/encoded service? What are other
          >implementation
          >>> doing
          >>> > (particularly JAX-RPC implementation) about the SOAP encoded
          types?
          >>> >
          >>> > Thanks for any help/info.
          >>> >
          >>> > --
          >>> > Tom Jordahl
          >>> > Wearing his Apache Axis committer hat
          >>> >
          >>> >
          >>> >
          >>> >
          >>> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
          >>> > This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to
          >discuss
          >>> implementation and
          >>> > interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
          >>> >
          >>>
          >>> >
          >>> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          >>> >
          >>> > ADVERTISEMENT
          >>> > [image removed]
          >>> >
          >>> > [image removed]
          >>> >
          >>> >
          >>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>> > To visit your group on the web, go to:
          >>> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/soapbuilders/
          >>> >
          >>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          >>> > soapbuilders-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >>> >
          >>> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
          >Service.
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
          >>> This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to
          discuss
          >>> implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
          >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>-----------------------------------------------------------------
          >>This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss
          >>implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
          >>Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >-----------------------------------------------------------------
          >This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss
          >implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >-----------------------------------------------------------------
          >This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss
          >implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >



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          --------------------------------------------------------------------~->

          -----------------------------------------------------------------
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          Yahoo! Groups Links
        • Christopher B Ferris
          Tom, Right, WS-I says not to use rpc/encoded for a reason. SOAP encoding is the bane of interoperability in Web services. Note also that neither SOAP1.1, nor
          Message 4 of 17 , Dec 17, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            Tom,

            Right, WS-I says not to use rpc/encoded for a reason. SOAP encoding is the
            bane of interoperability in
            Web services. Note also that neither SOAP1.1, nor SOAP1.2, require support
            for SOAP encoding:

            http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/NOTE-SOAP-20000508/#_Toc478383512

            "Use of the data model and encoding style described in this section is
            encouraged but
            not required; other data models and encodings can be used in conjunction
            with
            SOAP (see section 4.1.1). "

            Thus, .NET may freely choose not to support its use.

            Regardless of the fact that Axis produces rpc-encoded as the default (and
            that should be
            changed IMO), if interoperability is a key requirement, then you need to
            be using rpc-literal
            or (preferably) doc-literal WSDL to describe the service, and that WSDL
            should be
            WS-I BP 1.x conformant to boot.

            Note that IIRC, VisualStudio doesn't eat rpc-literal either, you'd have to
            code the C# by hand.
            If you want interop with .NET, then doc-literal or doc-literal wrappered
            is the way to go unless
            you are a glutton for punishment.

            WS-I Profiles have been hammered out with the intent that they set the bar
            for
            interoperability of Web services. Most toolkits support the WS-I BP at
            this point.
            While the WS-I BP does not constrain a vendor (or open source project)
            from supporting
            features disallowed by the Profile, developers who have interoperability
            as a
            non-functional requirement for their service should not be using those
            features (e.g.
            SOAP encoding). If you color outside the lines defined by the WS-I
            Profiles,
            then YMMV as to whether you can achieve interoperability with another
            platform/tooling.

            Cheers,

            Christopher Ferris
            STSM, Emerging e-business Industry Architecture
            email: chrisfer@...
            blog: http://webpages.charter.net/chrisfer/blog.html
            phone: +1 508 377 9295

            Tom Jordahl <tomj@...> wrote on 12/17/2004 02:12:41 PM:

            >
            > Well, that is cool for document/literal web services, but there are
            still
            > *many* toolkits (like say, Axis) that default to rpc/encoded.
            >
            > WS-I says nothing about encoding behaviors (other than not to use them).
            So
            > it doesn't apply here. This is a .NET failure to consume what I think
            is a
            > legitimate rpc/encoded web service.
            >
            > But thanks for playing Chris! :-)
            >
            > --
            > Tom Jordahl
            > Macromedia Server Development
            >
            > > -----Original Message-----
            > > From: Christopher B Ferris [mailto:chrisfer@...]
            > > Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 1:50 PM
            > > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
            > > Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] .NET, SOAP encoded types and arrays
            > >
            > >
            > > Could be because WS-I BP1.x disallows use of SOAP encoding. It has
            always
            > > been my understanding
            > > that .NET would not support SOAP encoding.
            > >
            > > Bottom line, you want interop, color inside the lines drawn by the
            WS-I
            > > Profiles:-)
            > >
            > > Cheers,
            > >
            > > Christopher Ferris
            > > STSM, Emerging e-business Industry Architecture
            > > email: chrisfer@...
            > > blog: http://webpages.charter.net/chrisfer/blog.html
            > > phone: +1 508 377 9295
            > >
            > > Tom Jordahl <tomj@...> wrote on 12/17/2004 12:20:40 PM:
            > >
            > > > Hello,
            > > >
            > > > Axis recently fixed up its type mapping system and our users have
            > > reported
            > > > some interop problems. Specifically, .NET client does not seem to
            > > > understand the soapenc types that Axis is sending it in SOAP encoded
            > > arrays.
            > > >
            > > > Our WSDL is this:
            > > >
            > > > xmlns:soapenc="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/"
            > > >
            > > > <complexType name="ArrayOf_soapenc_string">
            > > > <complexContent>
            > > > <restriction base="soapenc:Array">
            > > > <attribute ref="soapenc:arrayType"
            > > wsdl:arrayType="soapenc:string[]"/>
            > > > </restriction>
            > > > </complexContent>
            > > > </complexType>
            > > >
            > > > For an operation that is simply:
            > > > String[] echo(String[] in)
            > > >
            > > > .NET client sends this (note that it doesn't use the soap encoded
            > > types):
            > > >
            > > > <soap:Body
            > > soap:encodingStyle="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
            > > > <q1:echo xmlns:q1="http://DefaultNamespace">
            > > > <in href="#id1" />
            > > > </q1:echo>
            > > > <soapenc:Array id="id1" soapenc:arrayType="xsd:string[3]">
            > > > <Item>one</Item>
            > > > <Item>two</Item>
            > > > <Item>three</Item>
            > > > </soapenc:Array>
            > > > </soap:Body>
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Axis 1.2 returns:
            > > >
            > > > <soapenv:Body>
            > > > <ns1:echoResponse
            > > > soapenv:encodingStyle=http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/
            > > > xmlns:ns1="http://DefaultNamespace">
            > > > <echoReturn soapenc:arrayType="soapenc:string[3]"
            > > > xsi:type="soapenc:Array"
            > > > xmlns:soapenc="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
            > > > <item>one</item>
            > > > <item>two</item>
            > > > <item>three</item>
            > > > </echoReturn>
            > > > </ns1:echoResponse>
            > > > </soapenv:Body>
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > .NET reports an error:
            > > > Unhandled Exception: System.InvalidOperationException: There is an
            error
            > > in
            > > > XML document (1, 308). ---> System.InvalidOperationException: The
            > > specified
            > > > type was not recognized: name='string',
            > > > namespace='http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/', at
            <whoamiReturn
            > > > xmlns=''>.
            > > >
            > > > Actually, C# only says "There is an error in XML document (1, 311)."
            -
            > > this
            > > > error is from our user who is using VB.
            > > >
            > > > It appears that only by accident did our previous releases not use
            the
            > > SOAP
            > > > encoded types due to bugs in our code. Now that we fixed them, this
            > > shows
            > > > up. :-}
            > > >
            > > > Why is .NET not using the soapenc types? Why is it unable to
            recognize
            > > > these types in a rpc/encoded service? What are other implementation
            > > doing
            > > > (particularly JAX-RPC implementation) about the SOAP encoded types?
            > > >
            > > > Thanks for any help/info.
            > > >
            > > > --
            > > > Tom Jordahl
            > > > Wearing his Apache Axis committer hat
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
            > > > This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to
            discuss
            > > implementation and
            > > > interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
            > > >
            > >
            > > >
            > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            > > >
            > > > ADVERTISEMENT
            > > > [image removed]
            > > >
            > > > [image removed]
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/soapbuilders/
            > > >
            > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > > soapbuilders-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > > >
            > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
            > > This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss
            > > implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > -----------------------------------------------------------------
            > This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss
            implementation and
            > interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
            >

            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            >
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            > soapbuilders-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          • Anish Karmarkar
            ... +1, especially to your comments about WS-I BP, and soap-encoding. IMHO, Web services should be document oriented/focused, but I do have a question about
            Message 5 of 17 , Dec 17, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              Christopher B Ferris wrote:
              > Tom,
              >
              > Right, WS-I says not to use rpc/encoded for a reason. SOAP encoding is the
              > bane of interoperability in
              > Web services. Note also that neither SOAP1.1, nor SOAP1.2, require support
              > for SOAP encoding:
              >
              > http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/NOTE-SOAP-20000508/#_Toc478383512
              >
              > "Use of the data model and encoding style described in this section is
              > encouraged but
              > not required; other data models and encodings can be used in conjunction
              > with
              > SOAP (see section 4.1.1). "
              >
              > Thus, .NET may freely choose not to support its use.
              >
              > Regardless of the fact that Axis produces rpc-encoded as the default (and
              > that should be
              > changed IMO), if interoperability is a key requirement, then you need to
              > be using rpc-literal
              > or (preferably) doc-literal WSDL to describe the service, and that WSDL
              > should be
              > WS-I BP 1.x conformant to boot.
              >
              > Note that IIRC, VisualStudio doesn't eat rpc-literal either, you'd have to
              > code the C# by hand.
              > If you want interop with .NET, then doc-literal or doc-literal wrappered
              > is the way to go unless
              > you are a glutton for punishment.
              >

              +1, especially to your comments about WS-I BP, and soap-encoding.
              IMHO, Web services should be document oriented/focused, but I do have a
              question about doc-literal wrapped : what is the difference between
              rpc-literal and doc-literal wrapped? Other than the obvious fact that
              wrapped is declared as "document" style and not "rpc" style in WSDL.
              AFAICT, from an implementation perspective as well as messages on the
              wire, rpc-lit and doc-lit wrapped are exactly the same thing.

              -Anish
              --
            • Glen Daniels
              Hi Chris, all: ... Oy. I m sorry, but I ve heard this too many times now. The fact is that RPC/enc interop was working with tons of toolkits LONG before the
              Message 6 of 17 , Dec 17, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Chris, all:

                Christopher B Ferris wrote:
                > Right, WS-I says not to use rpc/encoded for a reason. SOAP encoding is the
                > bane of interoperability in
                > Web services.

                Oy. I'm sorry, but I've heard this too many times now.

                The fact is that RPC/enc interop was working with tons of toolkits LONG
                before the BP was even finished, and in fact before WS-I was even
                formed. Doesn't anyone remember all the activity around, oh, (he says
                glancing at the "to" line) Soapbuilders?

                http://www.xmethods.net/ilab/
                http://www.whitemesa.com/interop.htm
                http://www.whitemesa.com/r3/interop3.html
                http://www.whitemesa.net/r4/interop4.html

                If you'll recall, *doc/lit* interop was in fact vastly harder to
                achieve, and many toolkits for scripting languages like PERL and Python
                still don't support it very well if at all, although their RPC/enc
                behavior is impeccable.

                I'm not going to say that literal (including rpc/lit, because some of us
                still think that RPC-style interactions *are* actually important in many
                cases, even if we also think document-passing is the way to go) isn't a
                fine way to move forward, but neither am I going to be silent while
                people claim that there was so much trouble getting RPC interop working,
                when in fact this very group was instrumental in doing just that well
                before doc/lit became the gold standard. The anti-RPC backlash was
                about politics, FUD, and the fact that certain companies baked doc/lit
                (and "pseudo-rpc" wrapped mode) into their widely distributed toolkits
                as the default, much more than it was about technology or interop problems.

                > Note also that neither SOAP1.1, nor SOAP1.2, require support
                > for SOAP encoding:
                >
                > http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/NOTE-SOAP-20000508/#_Toc478383512
                >
                > "Use of the data model and encoding style described in this section is
                > encouraged but
                > not required; other data models and encodings can be used in conjunction
                > with
                > SOAP (see section 4.1.1). "
                >
                > Thus, .NET may freely choose not to support its use.

                This is absolutely true. However, if it is going to support its use at
                all (which it currently does), it should do it correctly and completely,
                which means supporting the soapenc types as well as multiref encoding.

                Cheers,
                --Glen
              • Tom Jordahl
                Chris, This isn t the forum for this. I was taking the WS-I axe grinding in good humor up until now. The line that rpc/encoded is the bane of interop is
                Message 7 of 17 , Dec 17, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  Chris,

                  This isn't the forum for this.

                  I was taking the WS-I axe grinding in good humor up until now.

                  <rant>
                  The line that rpc/encoded is the bane of interop is just bullsh*t.
                  Something I get real tired of hearing from people with an agenda to push
                  (WS-I for instance). This group *in particular* was created to insure the
                  implementations could interoperate, and it succeeded in this respect several
                  years ago. WITH ENCODING. We were getting the job DONE.

                  Then WS-I came along and said (surprise!) that the Microsoft way of doing
                  things (literal) was much more interoperable. Wow. Really? It seemed to
                  me, working on a real implementation (Axis 1.0), that *my* problems with
                  interop didn't stem from encoding, but supporting the *broken* encoding in
                  .NET (hey look, no 2D array support!). And having to invent things like
                  'wrapped' mode to reverse engineer what MS had done with their literal
                  stuff. And having to rework the whole f**king engine because the Axis
                  architects decided to support the SOAP 1.1 encoding, just like the SOAP
                  specification SAID, and the world changed its mind.

                  Look, I am not going to bash MS, because I am asking them for their help.
                  The fact of the matter is, they have customers and I have customers that
                  need to get *real work* done. My tool kit uses rpc/encoded, they need to
                  interoperate with that. Bottom line. If they have bugs consuming my
                  rpc/encoded services, as are published today, they need to fix them. If I
                  have bugs consuming their doc/lit services, I need to fix them too.

                  With reasoned arguments from people like Tim Ewald and others (mostly from
                  MS) I have had my Come-To-Jesus moment and realized that XML Schema is good.
                  Literal web services are good. Having the rpc/encoded vs. doc/lit wars is
                  BAD. Why were we given a choice in WSDL 1.1? That was bad. I have been
                  working on the WSDL 2.0 working group for years, and you will notice that we
                  learned from the mistakes. XML Schema is the one-true-way.

                  But in the mean time, rpc/encoding exists and works and every major toolkit
                  supports it. Customers need it to work. You can't dismiss my request for
                  help on this forum with "Use WS-I", that goes directly against the spirit in
                  which this group was formed.
                  </rant>

                  I apologize for my rant to those implementers out there that might actually
                  be able to give me some info about .NET and soap encoded arrays.

                  Thanks.

                  --
                  Tom Jordahl
                  Initial Axis implementer and committer
                  WSDL 2.0 Working Group member
                  WS-I representative for Macromedia
                  ColdFusion Architect


                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Christopher B Ferris [mailto:chrisfer@...]
                  > Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 4:22 PM
                  > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] .NET, SOAP encoded types and arrays
                  >
                  >
                  > Tom,
                  >
                  > Right, WS-I says not to use rpc/encoded for a reason. SOAP encoding is the
                  > bane of interoperability in
                  > Web services. Note also that neither SOAP1.1, nor SOAP1.2, require support
                  > for SOAP encoding:
                  >
                  > http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/NOTE-SOAP-20000508/#_Toc478383512
                  >
                  > "Use of the data model and encoding style described in this section is
                  > encouraged but
                  > not required; other data models and encodings can be used in conjunction
                  > with
                  > SOAP (see section 4.1.1). "
                  >
                  > Thus, .NET may freely choose not to support its use.
                  >
                  > Regardless of the fact that Axis produces rpc-encoded as the default (and
                  > that should be
                  > changed IMO), if interoperability is a key requirement, then you need to
                  > be using rpc-literal
                  > or (preferably) doc-literal WSDL to describe the service, and that WSDL
                  > should be
                  > WS-I BP 1.x conformant to boot.
                  >
                  > Note that IIRC, VisualStudio doesn't eat rpc-literal either, you'd have to
                  > code the C# by hand.
                  > If you want interop with .NET, then doc-literal or doc-literal wrappered
                  > is the way to go unless
                  > you are a glutton for punishment.
                  >
                  > WS-I Profiles have been hammered out with the intent that they set the bar
                  > for
                  > interoperability of Web services. Most toolkits support the WS-I BP at
                  > this point.
                  > While the WS-I BP does not constrain a vendor (or open source project)
                  > from supporting
                  > features disallowed by the Profile, developers who have interoperability
                  > as a
                  > non-functional requirement for their service should not be using those
                  > features (e.g.
                  > SOAP encoding). If you color outside the lines defined by the WS-I
                  > Profiles,
                  > then YMMV as to whether you can achieve interoperability with another
                  > platform/tooling.
                  >
                  > Cheers,
                  >
                  > Christopher Ferris
                  > STSM, Emerging e-business Industry Architecture
                  > email: chrisfer@...
                  > blog: http://webpages.charter.net/chrisfer/blog.html
                  > phone: +1 508 377 9295
                  >
                  > Tom Jordahl <tomj@...> wrote on 12/17/2004 02:12:41 PM:
                  >
                  > >
                  > > Well, that is cool for document/literal web services, but there are
                  > still
                  > > *many* toolkits (like say, Axis) that default to rpc/encoded.
                  > >
                  > > WS-I says nothing about encoding behaviors (other than not to use them).
                  > So
                  > > it doesn't apply here. This is a .NET failure to consume what I think
                  > is a
                  > > legitimate rpc/encoded web service.
                  > >
                  > > But thanks for playing Chris! :-)
                  > >
                  > > --
                  > > Tom Jordahl
                  > > Macromedia Server Development
                  > >
                  > > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > > From: Christopher B Ferris [mailto:chrisfer@...]
                  > > > Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 1:50 PM
                  > > > To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] .NET, SOAP encoded types and arrays
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Could be because WS-I BP1.x disallows use of SOAP encoding. It has
                  > always
                  > > > been my understanding
                  > > > that .NET would not support SOAP encoding.
                  > > >
                  > > > Bottom line, you want interop, color inside the lines drawn by the
                  > WS-I
                  > > > Profiles:-)
                  > > >
                  > > > Cheers,
                  > > >
                  > > > Christopher Ferris
                  > > > STSM, Emerging e-business Industry Architecture
                  > > > email: chrisfer@...
                  > > > blog: http://webpages.charter.net/chrisfer/blog.html
                  > > > phone: +1 508 377 9295
                  > > >
                  > > > Tom Jordahl <tomj@...> wrote on 12/17/2004 12:20:40 PM:
                  > > >
                  > > > > Hello,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Axis recently fixed up its type mapping system and our users have
                  > > > reported
                  > > > > some interop problems. Specifically, .NET client does not seem to
                  > > > > understand the soapenc types that Axis is sending it in SOAP encoded
                  > > > arrays.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Our WSDL is this:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > xmlns:soapenc="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/"
                  > > > >
                  > > > > <complexType name="ArrayOf_soapenc_string">
                  > > > > <complexContent>
                  > > > > <restriction base="soapenc:Array">
                  > > > > <attribute ref="soapenc:arrayType"
                  > > > wsdl:arrayType="soapenc:string[]"/>
                  > > > > </restriction>
                  > > > > </complexContent>
                  > > > > </complexType>
                  > > > >
                  > > > > For an operation that is simply:
                  > > > > String[] echo(String[] in)
                  > > > >
                  > > > > .NET client sends this (note that it doesn't use the soap encoded
                  > > > types):
                  > > > >
                  > > > > <soap:Body
                  > > > soap:encodingStyle="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
                  > > > > <q1:echo xmlns:q1="http://DefaultNamespace">
                  > > > > <in href="#id1" />
                  > > > > </q1:echo>
                  > > > > <soapenc:Array id="id1" soapenc:arrayType="xsd:string[3]">
                  > > > > <Item>one</Item>
                  > > > > <Item>two</Item>
                  > > > > <Item>three</Item>
                  > > > > </soapenc:Array>
                  > > > > </soap:Body>
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Axis 1.2 returns:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > <soapenv:Body>
                  > > > > <ns1:echoResponse
                  > > > > soapenv:encodingStyle=http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/
                  > > > > xmlns:ns1="http://DefaultNamespace">
                  > > > > <echoReturn soapenc:arrayType="soapenc:string[3]"
                  > > > > xsi:type="soapenc:Array"
                  > > > > xmlns:soapenc="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
                  > > > > <item>one</item>
                  > > > > <item>two</item>
                  > > > > <item>three</item>
                  > > > > </echoReturn>
                  > > > > </ns1:echoResponse>
                  > > > > </soapenv:Body>
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > .NET reports an error:
                  > > > > Unhandled Exception: System.InvalidOperationException: There is an
                  > error
                  > > > in
                  > > > > XML document (1, 308). ---> System.InvalidOperationException: The
                  > > > specified
                  > > > > type was not recognized: name='string',
                  > > > > namespace='http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/', at
                  > <whoamiReturn
                  > > > > xmlns=''>.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Actually, C# only says "There is an error in XML document (1, 311)."
                  > -
                  > > > this
                  > > > > error is from our user who is using VB.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > It appears that only by accident did our previous releases not use
                  > the
                  > > > SOAP
                  > > > > encoded types due to bugs in our code. Now that we fixed them, this
                  > > > shows
                  > > > > up. :-}
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Why is .NET not using the soapenc types? Why is it unable to
                  > recognize
                  > > > > these types in a rpc/encoded service? What are other implementation
                  > > > doing
                  > > > > (particularly JAX-RPC implementation) about the SOAP encoded types?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Thanks for any help/info.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --
                  > > > > Tom Jordahl
                  > > > > Wearing his Apache Axis committer hat
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
                  > > > > This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to
                  > discuss
                  > > > implementation and
                  > > > > interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  > > > >
                  > > > > ADVERTISEMENT
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                  > > > >
                  > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/soapbuilders/
                  > > > >
                  > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > > > soapbuilders-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
                  > > > This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss
                  > > > implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
                  > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
                  > > This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss
                  > implementation and
                  > > interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  > >
                  > > ADVERTISEMENT
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                  > >
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                  > >
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                  >
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                  >
                  > -----------------------------------------------------------------
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                • Wes Moulder
                  Tom, Don t use soapenc types. It all works fine if you use soapenc:Array as the array mechanism, but use xsd types underneath the covers. This is what we did
                  Message 8 of 17 , Dec 17, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Tom,
                    Don't use soapenc types. It all works fine if you use soapenc:Array as
                    the array mechanism, but
                    use xsd types underneath the covers. This is what we did back in the
                    day with all the interop testing
                    we were doing.
                    Not all toolkits support those types, but all will behave for the xsd
                    types. The soapenc types were
                    created to allow for the common attributes to appear on the xsd types
                    when attempting to schema
                    validate a soap encoded message. The root of the problem here, though,
                    is attempting to schema
                    validate a soap encoded message.

                    --Wes
                    Still waiting for his autographed Bible from the Come-to-Jesus XML
                    sessions...

                    Tom Jordahl wrote:

                    >Chris,
                    >
                    >This isn't the forum for this.
                    >
                    >I was taking the WS-I axe grinding in good humor up until now.
                    >
                    ><rant>
                    >The line that rpc/encoded is the bane of interop is just bullsh*t.
                    >Something I get real tired of hearing from people with an agenda to push
                    >(WS-I for instance). This group *in particular* was created to insure the
                    >implementations could interoperate, and it succeeded in this respect several
                    >years ago. WITH ENCODING. We were getting the job DONE.
                    >
                    >Then WS-I came along and said (surprise!) that the Microsoft way of doing
                    >things (literal) was much more interoperable. Wow. Really? It seemed to
                    >me, working on a real implementation (Axis 1.0), that *my* problems with
                    >interop didn't stem from encoding, but supporting the *broken* encoding in
                    >.NET (hey look, no 2D array support!). And having to invent things like
                    >'wrapped' mode to reverse engineer what MS had done with their literal
                    >stuff. And having to rework the whole f**king engine because the Axis
                    >architects decided to support the SOAP 1.1 encoding, just like the SOAP
                    >specification SAID, and the world changed its mind.
                    >
                    >Look, I am not going to bash MS, because I am asking them for their help.
                    >The fact of the matter is, they have customers and I have customers that
                    >need to get *real work* done. My tool kit uses rpc/encoded, they need to
                    >interoperate with that. Bottom line. If they have bugs consuming my
                    >rpc/encoded services, as are published today, they need to fix them. If I
                    >have bugs consuming their doc/lit services, I need to fix them too.
                    >
                    >With reasoned arguments from people like Tim Ewald and others (mostly from
                    >MS) I have had my Come-To-Jesus moment and realized that XML Schema is good.
                    >Literal web services are good. Having the rpc/encoded vs. doc/lit wars is
                    >BAD. Why were we given a choice in WSDL 1.1? That was bad. I have been
                    >working on the WSDL 2.0 working group for years, and you will notice that we
                    >learned from the mistakes. XML Schema is the one-true-way.
                    >
                    >But in the mean time, rpc/encoding exists and works and every major toolkit
                    >supports it. Customers need it to work. You can't dismiss my request for
                    >help on this forum with "Use WS-I", that goes directly against the spirit in
                    >which this group was formed.
                    ></rant>
                    >
                    >I apologize for my rant to those implementers out there that might actually
                    >be able to give me some info about .NET and soap encoded arrays.
                    >
                    >Thanks.
                    >
                    >--
                    >Tom Jordahl
                    >Initial Axis implementer and committer
                    >WSDL 2.0 Working Group member
                    >WS-I representative for Macromedia
                    >ColdFusion Architect
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >>-----Original Message-----
                    >>From: Christopher B Ferris [mailto:chrisfer@...]
                    >>Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 4:22 PM
                    >>To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                    >>Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] .NET, SOAP encoded types and arrays
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>Tom,
                    >>
                    >>Right, WS-I says not to use rpc/encoded for a reason. SOAP encoding is the
                    >>bane of interoperability in
                    >>Web services. Note also that neither SOAP1.1, nor SOAP1.2, require support
                    >>for SOAP encoding:
                    >>
                    >> http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/NOTE-SOAP-20000508/#_Toc478383512
                    >>
                    >>"Use of the data model and encoding style described in this section is
                    >>encouraged but
                    >>not required; other data models and encodings can be used in conjunction
                    >>with
                    >>SOAP (see section 4.1.1). "
                    >>
                    >>Thus, .NET may freely choose not to support its use.
                    >>
                    >>Regardless of the fact that Axis produces rpc-encoded as the default (and
                    >>that should be
                    >>changed IMO), if interoperability is a key requirement, then you need to
                    >>be using rpc-literal
                    >>or (preferably) doc-literal WSDL to describe the service, and that WSDL
                    >>should be
                    >>WS-I BP 1.x conformant to boot.
                    >>
                    >>Note that IIRC, VisualStudio doesn't eat rpc-literal either, you'd have to
                    >>code the C# by hand.
                    >>If you want interop with .NET, then doc-literal or doc-literal wrappered
                    >>is the way to go unless
                    >>you are a glutton for punishment.
                    >>
                    >>WS-I Profiles have been hammered out with the intent that they set the bar
                    >>for
                    >>interoperability of Web services. Most toolkits support the WS-I BP at
                    >>this point.
                    >>While the WS-I BP does not constrain a vendor (or open source project)
                    >>from supporting
                    >>features disallowed by the Profile, developers who have interoperability
                    >>as a
                    >>non-functional requirement for their service should not be using those
                    >>features (e.g.
                    >>SOAP encoding). If you color outside the lines defined by the WS-I
                    >>Profiles,
                    >>then YMMV as to whether you can achieve interoperability with another
                    >>platform/tooling.
                    >>
                    >>Cheers,
                    >>
                    >>Christopher Ferris
                    >>STSM, Emerging e-business Industry Architecture
                    >>email: chrisfer@...
                    >>blog: http://webpages.charter.net/chrisfer/blog.html
                    >>phone: +1 508 377 9295
                    >>
                    >>Tom Jordahl <tomj@...> wrote on 12/17/2004 02:12:41 PM:
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>>Well, that is cool for document/literal web services, but there are
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>still
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>>*many* toolkits (like say, Axis) that default to rpc/encoded.
                    >>>
                    >>>WS-I says nothing about encoding behaviors (other than not to use them).
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >> So
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>>it doesn't apply here. This is a .NET failure to consume what I think
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>is a
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>>legitimate rpc/encoded web service.
                    >>>
                    >>>But thanks for playing Chris! :-)
                    >>>
                    >>>--
                    >>>Tom Jordahl
                    >>>Macromedia Server Development
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>>-----Original Message-----
                    >>>>From: Christopher B Ferris [mailto:chrisfer@...]
                    >>>>Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 1:50 PM
                    >>>>To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                    >>>>Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] .NET, SOAP encoded types and arrays
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>Could be because WS-I BP1.x disallows use of SOAP encoding. It has
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>always
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>>>been my understanding
                    >>>>that .NET would not support SOAP encoding.
                    >>>>
                    >>>>Bottom line, you want interop, color inside the lines drawn by the
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>WS-I
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>>>Profiles:-)
                    >>>>
                    >>>>Cheers,
                    >>>>
                    >>>>Christopher Ferris
                    >>>>STSM, Emerging e-business Industry Architecture
                    >>>>email: chrisfer@...
                    >>>>blog: http://webpages.charter.net/chrisfer/blog.html
                    >>>>phone: +1 508 377 9295
                    >>>>
                    >>>>Tom Jordahl <tomj@...> wrote on 12/17/2004 12:20:40 PM:
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>>Hello,
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>Axis recently fixed up its type mapping system and our users have
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>reported
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>>some interop problems. Specifically, .NET client does not seem to
                    >>>>>understand the soapenc types that Axis is sending it in SOAP encoded
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>arrays.
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>>Our WSDL is this:
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>xmlns:soapenc="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/"
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>><complexType name="ArrayOf_soapenc_string">
                    >>>>> <complexContent>
                    >>>>> <restriction base="soapenc:Array">
                    >>>>> <attribute ref="soapenc:arrayType"
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>wsdl:arrayType="soapenc:string[]"/>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>> </restriction>
                    >>>>> </complexContent>
                    >>>>></complexType>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>For an operation that is simply:
                    >>>>> String[] echo(String[] in)
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>.NET client sends this (note that it doesn't use the soap encoded
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>types):
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>><soap:Body
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>soap:encodingStyle="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>> <q1:echo xmlns:q1="http://DefaultNamespace">
                    >>>>> <in href="#id1" />
                    >>>>> </q1:echo>
                    >>>>> <soapenc:Array id="id1" soapenc:arrayType="xsd:string[3]">
                    >>>>> <Item>one</Item>
                    >>>>> <Item>two</Item>
                    >>>>> <Item>three</Item>
                    >>>>> </soapenc:Array>
                    >>>>></soap:Body>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>Axis 1.2 returns:
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>><soapenv:Body>
                    >>>>> <ns1:echoResponse
                    >>>>> soapenv:encodingStyle=http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/
                    >>>>> xmlns:ns1="http://DefaultNamespace">
                    >>>>> <echoReturn soapenc:arrayType="soapenc:string[3]"
                    >>>>> xsi:type="soapenc:Array"
                    >>>>>xmlns:soapenc="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
                    >>>>> <item>one</item>
                    >>>>> <item>two</item>
                    >>>>> <item>three</item>
                    >>>>> </echoReturn>
                    >>>>> </ns1:echoResponse>
                    >>>>></soapenv:Body>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>.NET reports an error:
                    >>>>>Unhandled Exception: System.InvalidOperationException: There is an
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>error
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>>>in
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>>XML document (1, 308). ---> System.InvalidOperationException: The
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>specified
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>>type was not recognized: name='string',
                    >>>>>namespace='http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/', at
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >><whoamiReturn
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>>>>xmlns=''>.
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>Actually, C# only says "There is an error in XML document (1, 311)."
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>-
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>>>this
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>>error is from our user who is using VB.
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>It appears that only by accident did our previous releases not use
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>the
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>>>SOAP
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>>encoded types due to bugs in our code. Now that we fixed them, this
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>shows
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>>up. :-}
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>Why is .NET not using the soapenc types? Why is it unable to
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>recognize
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>>>>these types in a rpc/encoded service? What are other implementation
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>doing
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>>(particularly JAX-RPC implementation) about the SOAP encoded types?
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>Thanks for any help/info.
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>--
                    >>>>>Tom Jordahl
                    >>>>>Wearing his Apache Axis committer hat
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
                    >>>>>This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>discuss
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>>>implementation and
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>>interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>ADVERTISEMENT
                    >>>>>[image removed]
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>[image removed]
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >>>>>To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    >>>>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/soapbuilders/
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    >>>>>soapbuilders-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
                    >>>>This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss
                    >>>>implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
                    >>>>Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>
                    >>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
                    >>>This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>implementation and
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>>interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                    >>>
                    >>>ADVERTISEMENT
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                    >>>
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                    >>>
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                    >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >>>To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                    >>>
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                    >>>soapbuilders-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                    >>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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                    >>
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                    >>
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                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >-----------------------------------------------------------------
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                    >Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
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                    >
                    >
                  • Kirill Gavrylyuk
                    ... +1. We use SOAP Encoding for encoding and XSD schema for types description. We do not use the SOAP Encoding types to describe the actual data type in WSDL
                    Message 9 of 17 , Dec 17, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      >Don't use soapenc types. It all works fine if you use soapenc:Array as
                      >the array mechanism, but
                      >use xsd types underneath the covers.

                      +1.

                      We use SOAP Encoding for encoding and XSD schema for types description.
                      We do not use the SOAP Encoding types to describe the actual data type
                      in WSDL and in xsi:type. I think this is also the intent of the WSDL
                      1.1, and that's what we tested interop on couple years ago.
                      From WSDL 1.1: http://www.w3.org/TR/wsdl#_types

                      ....Don't include attributes or elements that are peculiar to the wire
                      encoding (e.g. have nothing to do with the abstract content of the
                      message)...

                      Therefore we map Array declaration in WSDL to the programming model
                      independently of the encoding.

                      Now, when we see soapenc:string our proxy generation tool wsdl.exe makes
                      certain optimization and also maps it to the array of strings.

                      From there on we expect to xsd:string to be the type of the array
                      elements.

                      You can change the .Net proxy to use the following type instead of
                      string, but then you have all the SOAP Encoding attributes in your
                      programming model, which was hardly your intent.

                      [System.Xml.Serialization.XmlTypeAttribute(Namespace="http://schemas.xml
                      soap.org/soap/encoding/")]
                      [System.Xml.Serialization.XmlRootAttribute(Namespace="http://schemas.xml
                      soap.org/soap/encoding/", IsNullable=false)]
                      public class @string
                      {
                      public @string(string a) { Value = a;}

                      /// <remarks/>
                      [System.Xml.Serialization.XmlAttributeAttribute(DataType="ID")]
                      public string id;

                      /// <remarks/>

                      [System.Xml.Serialization.XmlAttributeAttribute(DataType="anyURI")]
                      public string href;

                      /// <remarks/>
                      [System.Xml.Serialization.XmlAnyAttributeAttribute()]
                      public System.Xml.XmlAttribute[] AnyAttr;

                      /// <remarks/>
                      [System.Xml.Serialization.XmlTextAttribute()]
                      public string Value;
                      }


                      >-----Original Message-----
                      >From: Wes Moulder [mailto:wes@...]
                      >Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 2:33 PM
                      >To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] .NET, SOAP encoded types and arrays
                      >
                      >
                      >Tom,
                      >Don't use soapenc types. It all works fine if you use soapenc:Array as
                      >the array mechanism, but
                      >use xsd types underneath the covers. This is what we did back in the
                      >day with all the interop testing
                      >we were doing.
                      >Not all toolkits support those types, but all will behave for the xsd
                      >types. The soapenc types were
                      >created to allow for the common attributes to appear on the xsd types
                      >when attempting to schema
                      >validate a soap encoded message. The root of the problem here, though,
                      >is attempting to schema
                      >validate a soap encoded message.
                      >
                      >--Wes
                      >Still waiting for his autographed Bible from the Come-to-Jesus XML
                      >sessions...
                      >
                      >Tom Jordahl wrote:
                      >
                      >>Chris,
                      >>
                      >>This isn't the forum for this.
                      >>
                      >>I was taking the WS-I axe grinding in good humor up until now.
                      >>
                      >><rant>
                      >>The line that rpc/encoded is the bane of interop is just bullsh*t.
                      >>Something I get real tired of hearing from people with an agenda to
                      push
                      >>(WS-I for instance). This group *in particular* was created to insure
                      the
                      >>implementations could interoperate, and it succeeded in this respect
                      >several
                      >>years ago. WITH ENCODING. We were getting the job DONE.
                      >>
                      >>Then WS-I came along and said (surprise!) that the Microsoft way of
                      doing
                      >>things (literal) was much more interoperable. Wow. Really? It
                      seemed to
                      >>me, working on a real implementation (Axis 1.0), that *my* problems
                      with
                      >>interop didn't stem from encoding, but supporting the *broken*
                      encoding in
                      >>.NET (hey look, no 2D array support!). And having to invent things
                      like
                      >>'wrapped' mode to reverse engineer what MS had done with their literal
                      >>stuff. And having to rework the whole f**king engine because the Axis
                      >>architects decided to support the SOAP 1.1 encoding, just like the
                      SOAP
                      >>specification SAID, and the world changed its mind.
                      >>
                      >>Look, I am not going to bash MS, because I am asking them for their
                      help.
                      >>The fact of the matter is, they have customers and I have customers
                      that
                      >>need to get *real work* done. My tool kit uses rpc/encoded, they need
                      to
                      >>interoperate with that. Bottom line. If they have bugs consuming my
                      >>rpc/encoded services, as are published today, they need to fix them.
                      If I
                      >>have bugs consuming their doc/lit services, I need to fix them too.
                      >>
                      >>With reasoned arguments from people like Tim Ewald and others (mostly
                      from
                      >>MS) I have had my Come-To-Jesus moment and realized that XML Schema is
                      >good.
                      >>Literal web services are good. Having the rpc/encoded vs. doc/lit
                      wars is
                      >>BAD. Why were we given a choice in WSDL 1.1? That was bad. I have
                      been
                      >>working on the WSDL 2.0 working group for years, and you will notice
                      that
                      >we
                      >>learned from the mistakes. XML Schema is the one-true-way.
                      >>
                      >>But in the mean time, rpc/encoding exists and works and every major
                      >toolkit
                      >>supports it. Customers need it to work. You can't dismiss my request
                      for
                      >>help on this forum with "Use WS-I", that goes directly against the
                      spirit
                      >in
                      >>which this group was formed.
                      >></rant>
                      >>
                      >>I apologize for my rant to those implementers out there that might
                      >actually
                      >>be able to give me some info about .NET and soap encoded arrays.
                      >>
                      >>Thanks.
                      >>
                      >>--
                      >>Tom Jordahl
                      >>Initial Axis implementer and committer
                      >>WSDL 2.0 Working Group member
                      >>WS-I representative for Macromedia
                      >>ColdFusion Architect
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>>-----Original Message-----
                      >>>From: Christopher B Ferris [mailto:chrisfer@...]
                      >>>Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 4:22 PM
                      >>>To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                      >>>Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] .NET, SOAP encoded types and arrays
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>Tom,
                      >>>
                      >>>Right, WS-I says not to use rpc/encoded for a reason. SOAP encoding
                      is
                      >the
                      >>>bane of interoperability in
                      >>>Web services. Note also that neither SOAP1.1, nor SOAP1.2, require
                      >support
                      >>>for SOAP encoding:
                      >>>
                      >>> http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/NOTE-SOAP-20000508/#_Toc478383512
                      >>>
                      >>>"Use of the data model and encoding style described in this section
                      is
                      >>>encouraged but
                      >>>not required; other data models and encodings can be used in
                      conjunction
                      >>>with
                      >>>SOAP (see section 4.1.1). "
                      >>>
                      >>>Thus, .NET may freely choose not to support its use.
                      >>>
                      >>>Regardless of the fact that Axis produces rpc-encoded as the default
                      (and
                      >>>that should be
                      >>>changed IMO), if interoperability is a key requirement, then you need
                      to
                      >>>be using rpc-literal
                      >>>or (preferably) doc-literal WSDL to describe the service, and that
                      WSDL
                      >>>should be
                      >>>WS-I BP 1.x conformant to boot.
                      >>>
                      >>>Note that IIRC, VisualStudio doesn't eat rpc-literal either, you'd
                      have
                      >to
                      >>>code the C# by hand.
                      >>>If you want interop with .NET, then doc-literal or doc-literal
                      wrappered
                      >>>is the way to go unless
                      >>>you are a glutton for punishment.
                      >>>
                      >>>WS-I Profiles have been hammered out with the intent that they set
                      the
                      >bar
                      >>>for
                      >>>interoperability of Web services. Most toolkits support the WS-I BP
                      at
                      >>>this point.
                      >>>While the WS-I BP does not constrain a vendor (or open source
                      project)
                      >>>from supporting
                      >>>features disallowed by the Profile, developers who have
                      interoperability
                      >>>as a
                      >>>non-functional requirement for their service should not be using
                      those
                      >>>features (e.g.
                      >>>SOAP encoding). If you color outside the lines defined by the WS-I
                      >>>Profiles,
                      >>>then YMMV as to whether you can achieve interoperability with another
                      >>>platform/tooling.
                      >>>
                      >>>Cheers,
                      >>>
                      >>>Christopher Ferris
                      >>>STSM, Emerging e-business Industry Architecture
                      >>>email: chrisfer@...
                      >>>blog: http://webpages.charter.net/chrisfer/blog.html
                      >>>phone: +1 508 377 9295
                      >>>
                      >>>Tom Jordahl <tomj@...> wrote on 12/17/2004 02:12:41 PM:
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>>Well, that is cool for document/literal web services, but there are
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>still
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>>*many* toolkits (like say, Axis) that default to rpc/encoded.
                      >>>>
                      >>>>WS-I says nothing about encoding behaviors (other than not to use
                      them).
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>> So
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>>it doesn't apply here. This is a .NET failure to consume what I
                      think
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>is a
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>>legitimate rpc/encoded web service.
                      >>>>
                      >>>>But thanks for playing Chris! :-)
                      >>>>
                      >>>>--
                      >>>>Tom Jordahl
                      >>>>Macromedia Server Development
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>>>-----Original Message-----
                      >>>>>From: Christopher B Ferris [mailto:chrisfer@...]
                      >>>>>Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 1:50 PM
                      >>>>>To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                      >>>>>Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] .NET, SOAP encoded types and arrays
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>Could be because WS-I BP1.x disallows use of SOAP encoding. It has
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>
                      >>>always
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>>>been my understanding
                      >>>>>that .NET would not support SOAP encoding.
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>Bottom line, you want interop, color inside the lines drawn by the
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>
                      >>>WS-I
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>>>Profiles:-)
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>Cheers,
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>Christopher Ferris
                      >>>>>STSM, Emerging e-business Industry Architecture
                      >>>>>email: chrisfer@...
                      >>>>>blog: http://webpages.charter.net/chrisfer/blog.html
                      >>>>>phone: +1 508 377 9295
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>Tom Jordahl <tomj@...> wrote on 12/17/2004 12:20:40 PM:
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>>Hello,
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>Axis recently fixed up its type mapping system and our users have
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>reported
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>>some interop problems. Specifically, .NET client does not seem to
                      >>>>>>understand the soapenc types that Axis is sending it in SOAP
                      encoded
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>arrays.
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>>Our WSDL is this:
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>xmlns:soapenc="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/"
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>><complexType name="ArrayOf_soapenc_string">
                      >>>>>> <complexContent>
                      >>>>>> <restriction base="soapenc:Array">
                      >>>>>> <attribute ref="soapenc:arrayType"
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>wsdl:arrayType="soapenc:string[]"/>
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>> </restriction>
                      >>>>>> </complexContent>
                      >>>>>></complexType>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>For an operation that is simply:
                      >>>>>> String[] echo(String[] in)
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>.NET client sends this (note that it doesn't use the soap encoded
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>types):
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>><soap:Body
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>soap:encodingStyle="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>> <q1:echo xmlns:q1="http://DefaultNamespace">
                      >>>>>> <in href="#id1" />
                      >>>>>> </q1:echo>
                      >>>>>> <soapenc:Array id="id1" soapenc:arrayType="xsd:string[3]">
                      >>>>>> <Item>one</Item>
                      >>>>>> <Item>two</Item>
                      >>>>>> <Item>three</Item>
                      >>>>>> </soapenc:Array>
                      >>>>>></soap:Body>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>Axis 1.2 returns:
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>><soapenv:Body>
                      >>>>>> <ns1:echoResponse
                      >>>>>>
                      soapenv:encodingStyle=http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/
                      >>>>>> xmlns:ns1="http://DefaultNamespace">
                      >>>>>> <echoReturn soapenc:arrayType="soapenc:string[3]"
                      >>>>>> xsi:type="soapenc:Array"
                      >>>>>>xmlns:soapenc="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
                      >>>>>> <item>one</item>
                      >>>>>> <item>two</item>
                      >>>>>> <item>three</item>
                      >>>>>> </echoReturn>
                      >>>>>> </ns1:echoResponse>
                      >>>>>></soapenv:Body>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>.NET reports an error:
                      >>>>>>Unhandled Exception: System.InvalidOperationException: There is an
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>error
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>>>in
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>>XML document (1, 308). ---> System.InvalidOperationException: The
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>specified
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>>type was not recognized: name='string',
                      >>>>>>namespace='http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/', at
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>><whoamiReturn
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>>>>xmlns=''>.
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>Actually, C# only says "There is an error in XML document (1,
                      311)."
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>-
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>>>this
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>>error is from our user who is using VB.
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>It appears that only by accident did our previous releases not use
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>the
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>>>SOAP
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>>encoded types due to bugs in our code. Now that we fixed them,
                      this
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>shows
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>>up. :-}
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>Why is .NET not using the soapenc types? Why is it unable to
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>recognize
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>>>>these types in a rpc/encoded service? What are other
                      implementation
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>doing
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>>(particularly JAX-RPC implementation) about the SOAP encoded
                      types?
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>Thanks for any help/info.
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>--
                      >>>>>>Tom Jordahl
                      >>>>>>Wearing his Apache Axis committer hat
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
                      >>>>>>This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>discuss
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>>>implementation and
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>>interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>ADVERTISEMENT
                      >>>>>>[image removed]
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>[image removed]
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>>>>>To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      >>>>>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/soapbuilders/
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      >>>>>>soapbuilders-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                      Service.
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
                      >>>>>This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to
                      discuss
                      >>>>>implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
                      >>>>>Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
                      >>>>This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to
                      discuss
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>implementation and
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>>interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                      >>>>
                      >>>>ADVERTISEMENT
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                      >>>>soapbuilders-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >>>>
                      >>>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>
                      >>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
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                      >>>implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
                      >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>>
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                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
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                      >implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
                      >>Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>
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                      >>
                      >>
                      >
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                      >implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
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                      >
                      >
                    • Nelson Minar
                      ... As a builder of SOAP services intended for public use, I can confirm how big a problem this is. Trying to use document/literal web services from clients in
                      Message 10 of 17 , Dec 18, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        >If you'll recall, *doc/lit* interop was in fact vastly harder to
                        >achieve, and many toolkits for scripting languages like PERL and Python
                        >still don't support it very well if at all, although their RPC/enc
                        >behavior is impeccable.

                        As a builder of SOAP services intended for public use, I can confirm
                        how big a problem this is. Trying to use document/literal web services
                        from clients in PHP, Python, or Perl is really difficult. And I
                        despair of good doc/lit ever being implemented in those languages,
                        because of the general anti-SOAP feeling from many folks who would be
                        natural developers for scripting languages. They're too busy getting
                        things done with ad-hoc solutions to keep up with WS-* documents.

                        I like doc/lit better than rpc/encoded too, and I think that WS-I BP
                        1.0 is a great piece of work. But as a practical matter the switch to
                        doc/lit has set back interop.
                      • gddamm
                        This is an interesting thread. I am just starting work creating on an Axis 1.2 based service and have discovered this issue while doing interop testing with a
                        Message 11 of 17 , Apr 1, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          This is an interesting thread. I am just starting work creating on an
                          Axis 1.2 based service and have discovered this issue while doing
                          interop testing with a .net client. Does anyone on this thread know
                          of a simple fix to this issue? I get the don't use soapenc point, but
                          not sure how to easily implement with Axis. Is it as simple as using
                          an earlier version?

                          Thanks for any insight.

                          --- In soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com, Wes Moulder <wes@w...> wrote:
                          > Tom,
                          > Don't use soapenc types. It all works fine if you use soapenc:Array as
                          > the array mechanism, but
                          > use xsd types underneath the covers. This is what we did back in the
                          > day with all the interop testing
                          > we were doing.
                          > Not all toolkits support those types, but all will behave for the xsd
                          > types. The soapenc types were
                          > created to allow for the common attributes to appear on the xsd types
                          > when attempting to schema
                          > validate a soap encoded message. The root of the problem here, though,
                          > is attempting to schema
                          > validate a soap encoded message.
                          >
                          > --Wes
                          > Still waiting for his autographed Bible from the Come-to-Jesus XML
                          > sessions...
                          >
                          > Tom Jordahl wrote:
                          >
                          > >Chris,
                          > >
                          > >This isn't the forum for this.
                          > >
                          > >I was taking the WS-I axe grinding in good humor up until now.
                          > >
                          > ><rant>
                          > >The line that rpc/encoded is the bane of interop is just bullsh*t.
                          > >Something I get real tired of hearing from people with an agenda to
                          push
                          > >(WS-I for instance). This group *in particular* was created to
                          insure the
                          > >implementations could interoperate, and it succeeded in this
                          respect several
                          > >years ago. WITH ENCODING. We were getting the job DONE.
                          > >
                          > >Then WS-I came along and said (surprise!) that the Microsoft way of
                          doing
                          > >things (literal) was much more interoperable. Wow. Really? It
                          seemed to
                          > >me, working on a real implementation (Axis 1.0), that *my* problems
                          with
                          > >interop didn't stem from encoding, but supporting the *broken*
                          encoding in
                          > >.NET (hey look, no 2D array support!). And having to invent things
                          like
                          > >'wrapped' mode to reverse engineer what MS had done with their literal
                          > >stuff. And having to rework the whole f**king engine because the Axis
                          > >architects decided to support the SOAP 1.1 encoding, just like the SOAP
                          > >specification SAID, and the world changed its mind.
                          > >
                          > >Look, I am not going to bash MS, because I am asking them for their
                          help.
                          > >The fact of the matter is, they have customers and I have customers
                          that
                          > >need to get *real work* done. My tool kit uses rpc/encoded, they
                          need to
                          > >interoperate with that. Bottom line. If they have bugs consuming my
                          > >rpc/encoded services, as are published today, they need to fix
                          them. If I
                          > >have bugs consuming their doc/lit services, I need to fix them too.
                          > >
                          > >With reasoned arguments from people like Tim Ewald and others
                          (mostly from
                          > >MS) I have had my Come-To-Jesus moment and realized that XML Schema
                          is good.
                          > >Literal web services are good. Having the rpc/encoded vs. doc/lit
                          wars is
                          > >BAD. Why were we given a choice in WSDL 1.1? That was bad. I
                          have been
                          > >working on the WSDL 2.0 working group for years, and you will
                          notice that we
                          > >learned from the mistakes. XML Schema is the one-true-way.
                          > >
                          > >But in the mean time, rpc/encoding exists and works and every major
                          toolkit
                          > >supports it. Customers need it to work. You can't dismiss my
                          request for
                          > >help on this forum with "Use WS-I", that goes directly against the
                          spirit in
                          > >which this group was formed.
                          > ></rant>
                          > >
                          > >I apologize for my rant to those implementers out there that might
                          actually
                          > >be able to give me some info about .NET and soap encoded arrays.
                          > >
                          > >Thanks.
                          > >
                          > >--
                          > >Tom Jordahl
                          > >Initial Axis implementer and committer
                          > >WSDL 2.0 Working Group member
                          > >WS-I representative for Macromedia
                          > >ColdFusion Architect
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>-----Original Message-----
                          > >>From: Christopher B Ferris [mailto:chrisfer@u...]
                          > >>Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 4:22 PM
                          > >>To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                          > >>Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] .NET, SOAP encoded types and arrays
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>Tom,
                          > >>
                          > >>Right, WS-I says not to use rpc/encoded for a reason. SOAP
                          encoding is the
                          > >>bane of interoperability in
                          > >>Web services. Note also that neither SOAP1.1, nor SOAP1.2, require
                          support
                          > >>for SOAP encoding:
                          > >>
                          > >> http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/NOTE-SOAP-20000508/#_Toc478383512
                          > >>
                          > >>"Use of the data model and encoding style described in this section is
                          > >>encouraged but
                          > >>not required; other data models and encodings can be used in
                          conjunction
                          > >>with
                          > >>SOAP (see section 4.1.1). "
                          > >>
                          > >>Thus, .NET may freely choose not to support its use.
                          > >>
                          > >>Regardless of the fact that Axis produces rpc-encoded as the
                          default (and
                          > >>that should be
                          > >>changed IMO), if interoperability is a key requirement, then you
                          need to
                          > >>be using rpc-literal
                          > >>or (preferably) doc-literal WSDL to describe the service, and that
                          WSDL
                          > >>should be
                          > >>WS-I BP 1.x conformant to boot.
                          > >>
                          > >>Note that IIRC, VisualStudio doesn't eat rpc-literal either, you'd
                          have to
                          > >>code the C# by hand.
                          > >>If you want interop with .NET, then doc-literal or doc-literal
                          wrappered
                          > >>is the way to go unless
                          > >>you are a glutton for punishment.
                          > >>
                          > >>WS-I Profiles have been hammered out with the intent that they set
                          the bar
                          > >>for
                          > >>interoperability of Web services. Most toolkits support the WS-I BP at
                          > >>this point.
                          > >>While the WS-I BP does not constrain a vendor (or open source project)
                          > >>from supporting
                          > >>features disallowed by the Profile, developers who have
                          interoperability
                          > >>as a
                          > >>non-functional requirement for their service should not be using those
                          > >>features (e.g.
                          > >>SOAP encoding). If you color outside the lines defined by the WS-I
                          > >>Profiles,
                          > >>then YMMV as to whether you can achieve interoperability with another
                          > >>platform/tooling.
                          > >>
                          > >>Cheers,
                          > >>
                          > >>Christopher Ferris
                          > >>STSM, Emerging e-business Industry Architecture
                          > >>email: chrisfer@u...
                          > >>blog: http://webpages.charter.net/chrisfer/blog.html
                          > >>phone: +1 508 377 9295
                          > >>
                          > >>Tom Jordahl <tomj@m...> wrote on 12/17/2004 02:12:41 PM:
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>>Well, that is cool for document/literal web services, but there are
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>still
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>>*many* toolkits (like say, Axis) that default to rpc/encoded.
                          > >>>
                          > >>>WS-I says nothing about encoding behaviors (other than not to use
                          them).
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >> So
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>>it doesn't apply here. This is a .NET failure to consume what I
                          think
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>is a
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>>legitimate rpc/encoded web service.
                          > >>>
                          > >>>But thanks for playing Chris! :-)
                          > >>>
                          > >>>--
                          > >>>Tom Jordahl
                          > >>>Macromedia Server Development
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>>-----Original Message-----
                          > >>>>From: Christopher B Ferris [mailto:chrisfer@u...]
                          > >>>>Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 1:50 PM
                          > >>>>To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                          > >>>>Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] .NET, SOAP encoded types and arrays
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>Could be because WS-I BP1.x disallows use of SOAP encoding. It has
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>always
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>>>been my understanding
                          > >>>>that .NET would not support SOAP encoding.
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>Bottom line, you want interop, color inside the lines drawn by the
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>WS-I
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>>>Profiles:-)
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>Cheers,
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>Christopher Ferris
                          > >>>>STSM, Emerging e-business Industry Architecture
                          > >>>>email: chrisfer@u...
                          > >>>>blog: http://webpages.charter.net/chrisfer/blog.html
                          > >>>>phone: +1 508 377 9295
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>Tom Jordahl <tomj@m...> wrote on 12/17/2004 12:20:40 PM:
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>>Hello,
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>Axis recently fixed up its type mapping system and our users have
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>reported
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>>some interop problems. Specifically, .NET client does not seem to
                          > >>>>>understand the soapenc types that Axis is sending it in SOAP
                          encoded
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>arrays.
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>>Our WSDL is this:
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>xmlns:soapenc="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/"
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>><complexType name="ArrayOf_soapenc_string">
                          > >>>>> <complexContent>
                          > >>>>> <restriction base="soapenc:Array">
                          > >>>>> <attribute ref="soapenc:arrayType"
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>wsdl:arrayType="soapenc:string[]"/>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>> </restriction>
                          > >>>>> </complexContent>
                          > >>>>></complexType>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>For an operation that is simply:
                          > >>>>> String[] echo(String[] in)
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>.NET client sends this (note that it doesn't use the soap encoded
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>types):
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>><soap:Body
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>soap:encodingStyle="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>> <q1:echo xmlns:q1="http://DefaultNamespace">
                          > >>>>> <in href="#id1" />
                          > >>>>> </q1:echo>
                          > >>>>> <soapenc:Array id="id1" soapenc:arrayType="xsd:string[3]">
                          > >>>>> <Item>one</Item>
                          > >>>>> <Item>two</Item>
                          > >>>>> <Item>three</Item>
                          > >>>>> </soapenc:Array>
                          > >>>>></soap:Body>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>Axis 1.2 returns:
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>><soapenv:Body>
                          > >>>>> <ns1:echoResponse
                          > >>>>> soapenv:encodingStyle=http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/
                          > >>>>> xmlns:ns1="http://DefaultNamespace">
                          > >>>>> <echoReturn soapenc:arrayType="soapenc:string[3]"
                          > >>>>> xsi:type="soapenc:Array"
                          > >>>>>xmlns:soapenc="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
                          > >>>>> <item>one</item>
                          > >>>>> <item>two</item>
                          > >>>>> <item>three</item>
                          > >>>>> </echoReturn>
                          > >>>>> </ns1:echoResponse>
                          > >>>>></soapenv:Body>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>.NET reports an error:
                          > >>>>>Unhandled Exception: System.InvalidOperationException: There is an
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>error
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>>>in
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>>XML document (1, 308). ---> System.InvalidOperationException: The
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>specified
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>>type was not recognized: name='string',
                          > >>>>>namespace='http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/', at
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >><whoamiReturn
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>>>>xmlns=''>.
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>Actually, C# only says "There is an error in XML document (1,
                          311)."
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>-
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>>>this
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>>error is from our user who is using VB.
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>It appears that only by accident did our previous releases not use
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>the
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>>>SOAP
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>>encoded types due to bugs in our code. Now that we fixed them,
                          this
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>shows
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>>up. :-}
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>Why is .NET not using the soapenc types? Why is it unable to
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>recognize
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>>>>these types in a rpc/encoded service? What are other
                          implementation
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>doing
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>>(particularly JAX-RPC implementation) about the SOAP encoded types?
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>Thanks for any help/info.
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>--
                          > >>>>>Tom Jordahl
                          > >>>>>Wearing his Apache Axis committer hat
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
                          > >>>>>This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>discuss
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>>>implementation and
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>>interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>ADVERTISEMENT
                          > >>>>>[image removed]
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>[image removed]
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >>>>>To visit your group on the web, go to:
                          > >>>>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/soapbuilders/
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > >>>>>soapbuilders-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                          Service.
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
                          > >>>>This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to
                          discuss
                          > >>>>implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
                          > >>>>Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
                          > >>>This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>implementation and
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>>interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                          > >>>
                          > >>>ADVERTISEMENT
                          > >>>[image removed]
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                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >>>To visit your group on the web, go to:
                          > >>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/soapbuilders/
                          > >>>
                          > >>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > >>>soapbuilders-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > >>>
                          > >>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>
                          > >>-----------------------------------------------------------------
                          > >>This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss
                          > >>implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
                          > >>Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >-----------------------------------------------------------------
                          > >This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to
                          discuss implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay
                          on-topic.
                          > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                        • Anne Thomas Manes
                          This is not the proper forum to ask user questions. Please send Axis related questions to the Axis user list. See http://ws.apache.org/axis/mail.html. Anne
                          Message 12 of 17 , Apr 3, 2005
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                            This is not the proper forum to ask user questions. Please send Axis
                            related questions to the Axis user list. See
                            http://ws.apache.org/axis/mail.html.

                            Anne

                            On Apr 1, 2005 9:14 PM, gddamm <garyd@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > This is an interesting thread. I am just starting work creating on an
                            > Axis 1.2 based service and have discovered this issue while doing
                            > interop testing with a .net client. Does anyone on this thread know
                            > of a simple fix to this issue? I get the don't use soapenc point, but
                            > not sure how to easily implement with Axis. Is it as simple as using
                            > an earlier version?
                            >
                            > Thanks for any insight.
                            >
                            > --- In soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com, Wes Moulder <wes@w...> wrote:
                            > > Tom,
                            > > Don't use soapenc types. It all works fine if you use soapenc:Array as
                            > > the array mechanism, but
                            > > use xsd types underneath the covers. This is what we did back in the
                            > > day with all the interop testing
                            > > we were doing.
                            > > Not all toolkits support those types, but all will behave for the xsd
                            > > types. The soapenc types were
                            > > created to allow for the common attributes to appear on the xsd types
                            > > when attempting to schema
                            > > validate a soap encoded message. The root of the problem here, though,
                            > > is attempting to schema
                            > > validate a soap encoded message.
                            > >
                            > > --Wes
                            > > Still waiting for his autographed Bible from the Come-to-Jesus XML
                            > > sessions...
                            > >
                            > > Tom Jordahl wrote:
                            > >
                            > > >Chris,
                            > > >
                            > > >This isn't the forum for this.
                            > > >
                            > > >I was taking the WS-I axe grinding in good humor up until now.
                            > > >
                            > > ><rant>
                            > > >The line that rpc/encoded is the bane of interop is just bullsh*t.
                            > > >Something I get real tired of hearing from people with an agenda to
                            > push
                            > > >(WS-I for instance). This group *in particular* was created to
                            > insure the
                            > > >implementations could interoperate, and it succeeded in this
                            > respect several
                            > > >years ago. WITH ENCODING. We were getting the job DONE.
                            > > >
                            > > >Then WS-I came along and said (surprise!) that the Microsoft way of
                            > doing
                            > > >things (literal) was much more interoperable. Wow. Really? It
                            > seemed to
                            > > >me, working on a real implementation (Axis 1.0), that *my* problems
                            > with
                            > > >interop didn't stem from encoding, but supporting the *broken*
                            > encoding in
                            > > >.NET (hey look, no 2D array support!). And having to invent things
                            > like
                            > > >'wrapped' mode to reverse engineer what MS had done with their literal
                            > > >stuff. And having to rework the whole f**king engine because the Axis
                            > > >architects decided to support the SOAP 1.1 encoding, just like the SOAP
                            > > >specification SAID, and the world changed its mind.
                            > > >
                            > > >Look, I am not going to bash MS, because I am asking them for their
                            > help.
                            > > >The fact of the matter is, they have customers and I have customers
                            > that
                            > > >need to get *real work* done. My tool kit uses rpc/encoded, they
                            > need to
                            > > >interoperate with that. Bottom line. If they have bugs consuming my
                            > > >rpc/encoded services, as are published today, they need to fix
                            > them. If I
                            > > >have bugs consuming their doc/lit services, I need to fix them too.
                            > > >
                            > > >With reasoned arguments from people like Tim Ewald and others
                            > (mostly from
                            > > >MS) I have had my Come-To-Jesus moment and realized that XML Schema
                            > is good.
                            > > >Literal web services are good. Having the rpc/encoded vs. doc/lit
                            > wars is
                            > > >BAD. Why were we given a choice in WSDL 1.1? That was bad. I
                            > have been
                            > > >working on the WSDL 2.0 working group for years, and you will
                            > notice that we
                            > > >learned from the mistakes. XML Schema is the one-true-way.
                            > > >
                            > > >But in the mean time, rpc/encoding exists and works and every major
                            > toolkit
                            > > >supports it. Customers need it to work. You can't dismiss my
                            > request for
                            > > >help on this forum with "Use WS-I", that goes directly against the
                            > spirit in
                            > > >which this group was formed.
                            > > ></rant>
                            > > >
                            > > >I apologize for my rant to those implementers out there that might
                            > actually
                            > > >be able to give me some info about .NET and soap encoded arrays.
                            > > >
                            > > >Thanks.
                            > > >
                            > > >--
                            > > >Tom Jordahl
                            > > >Initial Axis implementer and committer
                            > > >WSDL 2.0 Working Group member
                            > > >WS-I representative for Macromedia
                            > > >ColdFusion Architect
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >>-----Original Message-----
                            > > >>From: Christopher B Ferris [mailto:chrisfer@u...]
                            > > >>Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 4:22 PM
                            > > >>To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                            > > >>Subject: RE: [soapbuilders] .NET, SOAP encoded types and arrays
                            > > >>
                            > > >>
                            > > >>Tom,
                            > > >>
                            > > >>Right, WS-I says not to use rpc/encoded for a reason. SOAP
                            > encoding is the
                            > > >>bane of interoperability in
                            > > >>Web services. Note also that neither SOAP1.1, nor SOAP1.2, require
                            > support
                            > > >>for SOAP encoding:
                            > > >>
                            > > >> http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/NOTE-SOAP-20000508/#_Toc478383512
                            > > >>
                            > > >>"Use of the data model and encoding style described in this section is
                            > > >>encouraged but
                            > > >>not required; other data models and encodings can be used in
                            > conjunction
                            > > >>with
                            > > >>SOAP (see section 4.1.1). "
                            > > >>
                            > > >>Thus, .NET may freely choose not to support its use.
                            > > >>
                            > > >>Regardless of the fact that Axis produces rpc-encoded as the
                            > default (and
                            > > >>that should be
                            > > >>changed IMO), if interoperability is a key requirement, then you
                            > need to
                            > > >>be using rpc-literal
                            > > >>or (preferably) doc-literal WSDL to describe the service, and that
                            > WSDL
                            > > >>should be
                            > > >>WS-I BP 1.x conformant to boot.
                            > > >>
                            > > >>Note that IIRC, VisualStudio doesn't eat rpc-literal either, you'd
                            > have to
                            > > >>code the C# by hand.
                            > > >>If you want interop with .NET, then doc-literal or doc-literal
                            > wrappered
                            > > >>is the way to go unless
                            > > >>you are a glutton for punishment.
                            > > >>
                            > > >>WS-I Profiles have been hammered out with the intent that they set
                            > the bar
                            > > >>for
                            > > >>interoperability of Web services. Most toolkits support the WS-I BP at
                            > > >>this point.
                            > > >>While the WS-I BP does not constrain a vendor (or open source project)
                            > > >>from supporting
                            > > >>features disallowed by the Profile, developers who have
                            > interoperability
                            > > >>as a
                            > > >>non-functional requirement for their service should not be using those
                            > > >>features (e.g.
                            > > >>SOAP encoding). If you color outside the lines defined by the WS-I
                            > > >>Profiles,
                            > > >>then YMMV as to whether you can achieve interoperability with another
                            > > >>platform/tooling.
                            > > >>
                            > > >>Cheers,
                            > > >>
                            > > >>Christopher Ferris
                            > > >>STSM, Emerging e-business Industry Architecture
                            > > >>email: chrisfer@u...
                            > > >>blog: http://webpages.charter.net/chrisfer/blog.html
                            > > >>phone: +1 508 377 9295
                            > > >>
                            > > >>Tom Jordahl <tomj@m...> wrote on 12/17/2004 02:12:41 PM:
                            > > >>
                            > > >>
                            > > >>
                            > > >>>Well, that is cool for document/literal web services, but there are
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>still
                            > > >>
                            > > >>
                            > > >>>*many* toolkits (like say, Axis) that default to rpc/encoded.
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>>WS-I says nothing about encoding behaviors (other than not to use
                            > them).
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>>
                            > > >> So
                            > > >>
                            > > >>
                            > > >>>it doesn't apply here. This is a .NET failure to consume what I
                            > think
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>is a
                            > > >>
                            > > >>
                            > > >>>legitimate rpc/encoded web service.
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>>But thanks for playing Chris! :-)
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>>--
                            > > >>>Tom Jordahl
                            > > >>>Macromedia Server Development
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>>>-----Original Message-----
                            > > >>>>From: Christopher B Ferris [mailto:chrisfer@u...]
                            > > >>>>Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 1:50 PM
                            > > >>>>To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
                            > > >>>>Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] .NET, SOAP encoded types and arrays
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>>>Could be because WS-I BP1.x disallows use of SOAP encoding. It has
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>always
                            > > >>
                            > > >>
                            > > >>>>been my understanding
                            > > >>>>that .NET would not support SOAP encoding.
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>>>Bottom line, you want interop, color inside the lines drawn by the
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>WS-I
                            > > >>
                            > > >>
                            > > >>>>Profiles:-)
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>>>Cheers,
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>>>Christopher Ferris
                            > > >>>>STSM, Emerging e-business Industry Architecture
                            > > >>>>email: chrisfer@u...
                            > > >>>>blog: http://webpages.charter.net/chrisfer/blog.html
                            > > >>>>phone: +1 508 377 9295
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>>>Tom Jordahl <tomj@m...> wrote on 12/17/2004 12:20:40 PM:
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>>>>Hello,
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>>Axis recently fixed up its type mapping system and our users have
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>reported
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>>>>some interop problems. Specifically, .NET client does not seem to
                            > > >>>>>understand the soapenc types that Axis is sending it in SOAP
                            > encoded
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>arrays.
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>>>>Our WSDL is this:
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>>xmlns:soapenc="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/"
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>><complexType name="ArrayOf_soapenc_string">
                            > > >>>>> <complexContent>
                            > > >>>>> <restriction base="soapenc:Array">
                            > > >>>>> <attribute ref="soapenc:arrayType"
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>wsdl:arrayType="soapenc:string[]"/>
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>>>> </restriction>
                            > > >>>>> </complexContent>
                            > > >>>>></complexType>
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>>For an operation that is simply:
                            > > >>>>> String[] echo(String[] in)
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>>.NET client sends this (note that it doesn't use the soap encoded
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>types):
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>>>><soap:Body
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>soap:encodingStyle="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>>>> <q1:echo xmlns:q1="http://DefaultNamespace">
                            > > >>>>> <in href="#id1" />
                            > > >>>>> </q1:echo>
                            > > >>>>> <soapenc:Array id="id1" soapenc:arrayType="xsd:string[3]">
                            > > >>>>> <Item>one</Item>
                            > > >>>>> <Item>two</Item>
                            > > >>>>> <Item>three</Item>
                            > > >>>>> </soapenc:Array>
                            > > >>>>></soap:Body>
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>>Axis 1.2 returns:
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>><soapenv:Body>
                            > > >>>>> <ns1:echoResponse
                            > > >>>>> soapenv:encodingStyle=http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/
                            > > >>>>> xmlns:ns1="http://DefaultNamespace">
                            > > >>>>> <echoReturn soapenc:arrayType="soapenc:string[3]"
                            > > >>>>> xsi:type="soapenc:Array"
                            > > >>>>>xmlns:soapenc="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
                            > > >>>>> <item>one</item>
                            > > >>>>> <item>two</item>
                            > > >>>>> <item>three</item>
                            > > >>>>> </echoReturn>
                            > > >>>>> </ns1:echoResponse>
                            > > >>>>></soapenv:Body>
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>>.NET reports an error:
                            > > >>>>>Unhandled Exception: System.InvalidOperationException: There is an
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>error
                            > > >>
                            > > >>
                            > > >>>>in
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>>>>XML document (1, 308). ---> System.InvalidOperationException: The
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>specified
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>>>>type was not recognized: name='string',
                            > > >>>>>namespace='http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/', at
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >><whoamiReturn
                            > > >>
                            > > >>
                            > > >>>>>xmlns=''>.
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>>Actually, C# only says "There is an error in XML document (1,
                            > 311)."
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>-
                            > > >>
                            > > >>
                            > > >>>>this
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>>>>error is from our user who is using VB.
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>>It appears that only by accident did our previous releases not use
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>the
                            > > >>
                            > > >>
                            > > >>>>SOAP
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>>>>encoded types due to bugs in our code. Now that we fixed them,
                            > this
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>shows
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>>>>up. :-}
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>>Why is .NET not using the soapenc types? Why is it unable to
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>recognize
                            > > >>
                            > > >>
                            > > >>>>>these types in a rpc/encoded service? What are other
                            > implementation
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>doing
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>>>>(particularly JAX-RPC implementation) about the SOAP encoded types?
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>>Thanks for any help/info.
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>>--
                            > > >>>>>Tom Jordahl
                            > > >>>>>Wearing his Apache Axis committer hat
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
                            > > >>>>>This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>discuss
                            > > >>
                            > > >>
                            > > >>>>implementation and
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>>>>interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>>
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                            > > >>>>>
                            > > >>>>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > > >>>>>soapbuilders-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                            > > >>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
                            > > >>>>This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to
                            > discuss
                            > > >>>>implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
                            > > >>>>Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > > >>>>
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                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>>>
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
                            > > >>>This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>implementation and
                            > > >>
                            > > >>
                            > > >>>interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
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                            > > >>>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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                            > > >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > > >>>To visit your group on the web, go to:
                            > > >>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/soapbuilders/
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                            > > >>>
                            > > >>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>
                            > > >>-----------------------------------------------------------------
                            > > >>This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to discuss
                            > > >>implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay on-topic.
                            > > >>Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > > >>
                            > > >>
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                            > > >>
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >-----------------------------------------------------------------
                            > > >This group is a forum for builders of SOAP implementations to
                            > discuss implementation and interoperability issues. Please stay
                            > on-topic.
                            > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
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                            >
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                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
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