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  • tblanchard2@yahoo.com
    From: Doug Davis ... Dave Winer replies: Good question! 1. Docs. 2. Sample code. 3. A mail list. Now a philosophical question. Why do people ask
    Message 1 of 2 , Nov 5, 2001
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      From: "Doug Davis" <dug@u...>

      > If I'm a client and I want to talk to your getQuote service
      > (ignore for a moment how I know you're even offering it),
      > how do I know what to send? You're not going to provide me
      > with something like WSDL (too static), so how do I know what
      > parameters your getQuote takes? Or what headers you're
      > expecting?

      Dave Winer replies:
      Good question!
      1. Docs.
      2. Sample code.
      3. A mail list.

      Now a philosophical question. Why do people ask this question so
      often. Is it a mystery? Isn't this how it's always worked?

      ----------------------------

      Just because its always worked that way doesn't mean its a good way
      to work. My company makes a tool that allows (among other things)
      aggregation of web services. It lets someone who isn't a programmer
      snap together building blocks to create complex web services.

      We do it by reading the WSDL document and enforcing the interface
      contracts among the blocks. The gizmo is a visual programming tool
      that lets your draw wires between the blocks but we only allow wires
      that make sense based on the WSDL (inserting type converters where we
      can).

      Does this help you understand why people want this stuff?

      Incidentally - in your first rant - I could replace the phrase WSDL
      with SOAP and add Userland to the list of company names and you'd
      pretty well capture how I feel about SOAP.

      -Todd Blanchard
    • Will Iverson
      ... Actually, this isn t the way that JavaBean-based tools work (like JBuilder or NetBeans or VisualCafe). I m pretty sure that VB has introspection as well.
      Message 2 of 2 , Nov 5, 2001
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        > Now a philosophical question. Why do people ask this question so
        > often. Is it a mystery? Isn't this how it's always worked?

        Actually, this isn't the way that JavaBean-based tools work (like
        JBuilder or NetBeans or VisualCafe). I'm pretty sure that VB has
        introspection as well.

        A decent tool and a component API can do amazing things. A good tool
        can dynamically inspect another piece of code, find out what it is,
        and then generate code in the authoring enviroment. This lets you do
        work with lots of additional tools, and the API also lets folks
        innovate in the tools area.

        I'd like to be able to provide an inspector window for DreamWeaver
        that lets folks see XML-RPC/Soap api services in real time. They
        could then drag and drop stuff out and link it to the rest of their
        application within the context of the GUI editor.

        I agree that WDSL seems like a step in the wrong direction - who
        wants to maintain two documents, a WDSL description and their code?
        Wouldn't it make more sense to have the reflection information
        automatically generated when the code is put into the server code?

        There might be an API between the server implementation and the
        server to provide hinting, but otherwise wouldn't it make sense to
        simply describe the reflection information in terms of an RPC API?

        At the most simplistic from a design view, why not just make a
        simplified version of the JavaBeans and Java Reflection APIs part of
        the specs? Describe them as RPC interfaces instead...?

        I'm not totally insane (ha). The most simplistic of these is...

        http://xmlrpc.usefulinc.com/doc/reserved.html

        A more complex version is...

        http://xmlrpc-epi.sourceforge.net/specs/rfc.system.describeMethods.php

        Finally, the relevant Java specs are at...

        http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.3/docs/api/java/beans/package-summary.html
        http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.3/docs/api/java/lang/reflect/package-
        frame.html

        Anyways, yes, I'm an unabashed Java guy, but don't interpret these
        specs being put forth as pro-Java and anti C or Perl or C++ or
        whatever (ok, so I'm sort of anti-Perl ^_^). Look at them merely as
        extensive prior design work that can be leveraged, independent of the
        language...

        Cheers,

        -Will


        --- In soap-newbies@y..., tblanchard2@y... wrote:
        > From: "Doug Davis" <dug@u...>
        >
        > > If I'm a client and I want to talk to your getQuote service
        > > (ignore for a moment how I know you're even offering it),
        > > how do I know what to send? You're not going to provide me
        > > with something like WSDL (too static), so how do I know what
        > > parameters your getQuote takes? Or what headers you're
        > > expecting?
        >
        > Dave Winer replies:
        > Good question!
        > 1. Docs.
        > 2. Sample code.
        > 3. A mail list.
        >
        > Now a philosophical question. Why do people ask this question so
        > often. Is it a mystery? Isn't this how it's always worked?
        >
        > ----------------------------
        >
        > Just because its always worked that way doesn't mean its a good way
        > to work. My company makes a tool that allows (among other things)
        > aggregation of web services. It lets someone who isn't a
        programmer
        > snap together building blocks to create complex web services.
        >
        > We do it by reading the WSDL document and enforcing the interface
        > contracts among the blocks. The gizmo is a visual programming tool
        > that lets your draw wires between the blocks but we only allow
        wires
        > that make sense based on the WSDL (inserting type converters where
        we
        > can).
        >
        > Does this help you understand why people want this stuff?
        >
        > Incidentally - in your first rant - I could replace the phrase WSDL
        > with SOAP and add Userland to the list of company names and you'd
        > pretty well capture how I feel about SOAP.
        >
        > -Todd Blanchard
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