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Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL

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  • Doug Davis
    (Speaking just for myself - ignore the mail address 8-) ... not ... If WSDL does not work in a particular use-case then propose something that will - if its
    Message 1 of 25 , Nov 5, 2001
      (Speaking just for myself - ignore the mail address 8-)

      Dave wrote:
      >It can only work in static environments such as Java and .Net and not in
      >dynamic environments that are popular with Web developers, including but
      not
      >limited to Perl, Python, PHP, and UserLand Frontier.

      If WSDL does not work in a particular use-case then propose something
      that will - if its good enough people (including IBM and MS) I'm sure will
      be interesting in playing too.

      >Today WSDL is not a basis for interop. If there is interop it's only
      >between Java and .Net.

      I don't believe the guys on SOAPBuilders would agree with this - I'm
      pretty sure there are other SOAP processors joining in.

      >There can be no significant support for this by independent developers
      >because it shuts them out.

      Whether or not it shuts people out is no indication of whether the
      technology/ideas behind WSDL are good or not.
      I'm no huge fan of WSDL - but it seems to fit a need - and I'm sure when
      (not "if" but "when") something else comes along if it is better than WSDL
      people will try to support it.

      >These companies want the endorsement of the W3C. They're trying to
      redefine
      >the rules so that only their products can satisfy them. This is a good
      test of
      >the W3C's independence from the big companies.
      >Philosophically this faceoff is directly comparable to the tightly-coupled

      >and managed hypertext environments that were theorized before the
      >loosely-coupled HTML-HTTP web came along, and wiped out all the theories.
      SOAP
      >alone, without the tight coupling promised by WSDL, is being widely
      deployed,
      >without Microsoft and IBM. This must irk them. But don't thwart the spirit
      of
      >the Web, it's still alive, in this venue.
      >Tell Microsoft and IBM to go back to the drawing board. It's the right
      >thing to do, maybe next time around they won't create such a self-serving
      >specification that goes against the interests of independent developers.

      So what's your proposal? Or, if you've offered one why is it not
      taking off?

      -Dug
    • Dave Winer
      Doug, please consider that I believe point 6 to be true (and perhaps the most important of the points). Therefore I m not going to propose something here --
      Message 2 of 25 , Nov 5, 2001
        Doug, please consider that I believe point 6 to be true (and perhaps the
        most important of the points). Therefore I'm not going to propose something
        here -- because I believe that IDLs make a lot of exclusionary assumptions
        about the kind of language and runtime environment a developer is using. I
        don't happen to use an environment that can make good use of them, or
        generate them automatically, and I'm far from alone in that -- most Web
        application environments are dynamic -- you don't know the types of the
        parameters and can't without adding a lot of overhead for app developers.
        Java and .Net are different, they're static environments, more power to you
        if you like programming that way -- but I like to let the environment do a
        lot of work for me in handing a type coercion. I'm not going back to static
        environments. Dave



        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Doug Davis" <dug@...>
        To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 9:07 AM
        Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL


        > (Speaking just for myself - ignore the mail address 8-)
        >
        > Dave wrote:
        > >It can only work in static environments such as Java and .Net and not in
        > >dynamic environments that are popular with Web developers, including but
        > not
        > >limited to Perl, Python, PHP, and UserLand Frontier.
        >
        > If WSDL does not work in a particular use-case then propose something
        > that will - if its good enough people (including IBM and MS) I'm sure will
        > be interesting in playing too.
        >
        > >Today WSDL is not a basis for interop. If there is interop it's only
        > >between Java and .Net.
        >
        > I don't believe the guys on SOAPBuilders would agree with this - I'm
        > pretty sure there are other SOAP processors joining in.
        >
        > >There can be no significant support for this by independent developers
        > >because it shuts them out.
        >
        > Whether or not it shuts people out is no indication of whether the
        > technology/ideas behind WSDL are good or not.
        > I'm no huge fan of WSDL - but it seems to fit a need - and I'm sure when
        > (not "if" but "when") something else comes along if it is better than WSDL
        > people will try to support it.
        >
        > >These companies want the endorsement of the W3C. They're trying to
        > redefine
        > >the rules so that only their products can satisfy them. This is a good
        > test of
        > >the W3C's independence from the big companies.
        > >Philosophically this faceoff is directly comparable to the
        tightly-coupled
        >
        > >and managed hypertext environments that were theorized before the
        > >loosely-coupled HTML-HTTP web came along, and wiped out all the theories.
        > SOAP
        > >alone, without the tight coupling promised by WSDL, is being widely
        > deployed,
        > >without Microsoft and IBM. This must irk them. But don't thwart the
        spirit
        > of
        > >the Web, it's still alive, in this venue.
        > >Tell Microsoft and IBM to go back to the drawing board. It's the right
        > >thing to do, maybe next time around they won't create such a self-serving
        > >specification that goes against the interests of independent developers.
        >
        > So what's your proposal? Or, if you've offered one why is it not
        > taking off?
        >
        > -Dug
        >
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
        >
      • Doug Davis
        Well, let s continue this then with the assumptions you ve mentioned: everything is dynamic and it costs a lot to produce something static (like WSDL). If I m
        Message 3 of 25 , Nov 5, 2001
          Well, let's continue this then with the assumptions you've
          mentioned: everything is dynamic and it costs a lot to
          produce something static (like WSDL).
          If I'm a client and I want to talk to your getQuote service
          (ignore for a moment how I know you're even offering it),
          how do I know what to send? You're not going to provide me
          with something like WSDL (too static), so how do I know what
          parameters your getQuote takes? Or what headers you're
          expecting?
          -Dug


          "Dave Winer" <dave@...> on 11/05/2001 12:47:13 PM

          Please respond to soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com

          To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
          cc:
          Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL



          Doug, please consider that I believe point 6 to be true (and perhaps the
          most important of the points). Therefore I'm not going to propose something
          here -- because I believe that IDLs make a lot of exclusionary assumptions
          about the kind of language and runtime environment a developer is using. I
          don't happen to use an environment that can make good use of them, or
          generate them automatically, and I'm far from alone in that -- most Web
          application environments are dynamic -- you don't know the types of the
          parameters and can't without adding a lot of overhead for app developers.
          Java and .Net are different, they're static environments, more power to you
          if you like programming that way -- but I like to let the environment do a
          lot of work for me in handing a type coercion. I'm not going back to static
          environments. Dave



          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Doug Davis" <dug@...>
          To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 9:07 AM
          Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL


          > (Speaking just for myself - ignore the mail address 8-)
          >
          > Dave wrote:
          > >It can only work in static environments such as Java and .Net and not in
          > >dynamic environments that are popular with Web developers, including but
          > not
          > >limited to Perl, Python, PHP, and UserLand Frontier.
          >
          > If WSDL does not work in a particular use-case then propose something
          > that will - if its good enough people (including IBM and MS) I'm sure
          will
          > be interesting in playing too.
          >
          > >Today WSDL is not a basis for interop. If there is interop it's only
          > >between Java and .Net.
          >
          > I don't believe the guys on SOAPBuilders would agree with this - I'm
          > pretty sure there are other SOAP processors joining in.
          >
          > >There can be no significant support for this by independent developers
          > >because it shuts them out.
          >
          > Whether or not it shuts people out is no indication of whether the
          > technology/ideas behind WSDL are good or not.
          > I'm no huge fan of WSDL - but it seems to fit a need - and I'm sure when
          > (not "if" but "when") something else comes along if it is better than
          WSDL
          > people will try to support it.
          >
          > >These companies want the endorsement of the W3C. They're trying to
          > redefine
          > >the rules so that only their products can satisfy them. This is a good
          > test of
          > >the W3C's independence from the big companies.
          > >Philosophically this faceoff is directly comparable to the
          tightly-coupled
          >
          > >and managed hypertext environments that were theorized before the
          > >loosely-coupled HTML-HTTP web came along, and wiped out all the
          theories.
          > SOAP
          > >alone, without the tight coupling promised by WSDL, is being widely
          > deployed,
          > >without Microsoft and IBM. This must irk them. But don't thwart the
          spirit
          > of
          > >the Web, it's still alive, in this venue.
          > >Tell Microsoft and IBM to go back to the drawing board. It's the right
          > >thing to do, maybe next time around they won't create such a
          self-serving
          > >specification that goes against the interests of independent developers.
          >
          > So what's your proposal? Or, if you've offered one why is it not
          > taking off?
          >
          > -Dug
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
          >



          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        • Dave Winer
          Good question! 1. Docs. 2. Sample code. 3. A mail list. Now a philosophical question. Why do people ask this question so often. Is it a mystery? Isn t this how
          Message 4 of 25 , Nov 5, 2001
            Good question!

            1. Docs.

            2. Sample code.

            3. A mail list.

            Now a philosophical question. Why do people ask this question so often. Is
            it a mystery? Isn't this how it's always worked?

            Dave


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Doug Davis" <dug@...>
            To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 10:27 AM
            Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL


            > Well, let's continue this then with the assumptions you've
            > mentioned: everything is dynamic and it costs a lot to
            > produce something static (like WSDL).
            > If I'm a client and I want to talk to your getQuote service
            > (ignore for a moment how I know you're even offering it),
            > how do I know what to send? You're not going to provide me
            > with something like WSDL (too static), so how do I know what
            > parameters your getQuote takes? Or what headers you're
            > expecting?
            > -Dug
            >
            >
            > "Dave Winer" <dave@...> on 11/05/2001 12:47:13 PM
            >
            > Please respond to soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
            > cc:
            > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
            >
            >
            >
            > Doug, please consider that I believe point 6 to be true (and perhaps the
            > most important of the points). Therefore I'm not going to propose
            something
            > here -- because I believe that IDLs make a lot of exclusionary assumptions
            > about the kind of language and runtime environment a developer is using. I
            > don't happen to use an environment that can make good use of them, or
            > generate them automatically, and I'm far from alone in that -- most Web
            > application environments are dynamic -- you don't know the types of the
            > parameters and can't without adding a lot of overhead for app developers.
            > Java and .Net are different, they're static environments, more power to
            you
            > if you like programming that way -- but I like to let the environment do a
            > lot of work for me in handing a type coercion. I'm not going back to
            static
            > environments. Dave
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Doug Davis" <dug@...>
            > To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 9:07 AM
            > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
            >
            >
            > > (Speaking just for myself - ignore the mail address 8-)
            > >
            > > Dave wrote:
            > > >It can only work in static environments such as Java and .Net and not
            in
            > > >dynamic environments that are popular with Web developers, including
            but
            > > not
            > > >limited to Perl, Python, PHP, and UserLand Frontier.
            > >
            > > If WSDL does not work in a particular use-case then propose something
            > > that will - if its good enough people (including IBM and MS) I'm sure
            > will
            > > be interesting in playing too.
            > >
            > > >Today WSDL is not a basis for interop. If there is interop it's only
            > > >between Java and .Net.
            > >
            > > I don't believe the guys on SOAPBuilders would agree with this - I'm
            > > pretty sure there are other SOAP processors joining in.
            > >
            > > >There can be no significant support for this by independent developers
            > > >because it shuts them out.
            > >
            > > Whether or not it shuts people out is no indication of whether the
            > > technology/ideas behind WSDL are good or not.
            > > I'm no huge fan of WSDL - but it seems to fit a need - and I'm sure when
            > > (not "if" but "when") something else comes along if it is better than
            > WSDL
            > > people will try to support it.
            > >
            > > >These companies want the endorsement of the W3C. They're trying to
            > > redefine
            > > >the rules so that only their products can satisfy them. This is a good
            > > test of
            > > >the W3C's independence from the big companies.
            > > >Philosophically this faceoff is directly comparable to the
            > tightly-coupled
            > >
            > > >and managed hypertext environments that were theorized before the
            > > >loosely-coupled HTML-HTTP web came along, and wiped out all the
            > theories.
            > > SOAP
            > > >alone, without the tight coupling promised by WSDL, is being widely
            > > deployed,
            > > >without Microsoft and IBM. This must irk them. But don't thwart the
            > spirit
            > > of
            > > >the Web, it's still alive, in this venue.
            > > >Tell Microsoft and IBM to go back to the drawing board. It's the right
            > > >thing to do, maybe next time around they won't create such a
            > self-serving
            > > >specification that goes against the interests of independent
            developers.
            > >
            > > So what's your proposal? Or, if you've offered one why is it not
            > > taking off?
            > >
            > > -Dug
            > >
            > >
            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
          • Doug Davis
            Well, sure that stuff can work but one of the benefits of WSDL (or supposed benefits 8-) is that it makes it easier to do this stuff programmatically. I don t
            Message 5 of 25 , Nov 5, 2001
              Well, sure that stuff can work but one of the benefits
              of WSDL (or supposed benefits 8-) is that it makes it
              easier to do this stuff programmatically. I don't see
              how WSDL solves it yet - I still believe that a human
              will need to be heavily involved in the process, but
              I guess I always hoped that WSDL was just a step in the
              process of coming up with the solution that will not
              require a human. We're not there yet, and probably
              not that close - but people are trying. Docs, samples
              and mailing lists are a fall-back solution to me.

              It is interesting that you see WSDL as too static, but
              Docs and samples are not. Seems like WSDL could change
              just as often (and probably with less headaches) than
              docs/samples.

              -Dug

              ps. Again - my opinions! 8-)


              "Dave Winer" <dave@...> on 11/05/2001 01:31:19 PM

              Please respond to soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com

              To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
              cc:
              Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL



              Good question!

              1. Docs.

              2. Sample code.

              3. A mail list.

              Now a philosophical question. Why do people ask this question so often. Is
              it a mystery? Isn't this how it's always worked?

              Dave


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Doug Davis" <dug@...>
              To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 10:27 AM
              Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL


              > Well, let's continue this then with the assumptions you've
              > mentioned: everything is dynamic and it costs a lot to
              > produce something static (like WSDL).
              > If I'm a client and I want to talk to your getQuote service
              > (ignore for a moment how I know you're even offering it),
              > how do I know what to send? You're not going to provide me
              > with something like WSDL (too static), so how do I know what
              > parameters your getQuote takes? Or what headers you're
              > expecting?
              > -Dug
              >
              >
              > "Dave Winer" <dave@...> on 11/05/2001 12:47:13 PM
              >
              > Please respond to soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
              > cc:
              > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
              >
              >
              >
              > Doug, please consider that I believe point 6 to be true (and perhaps the
              > most important of the points). Therefore I'm not going to propose
              something
              > here -- because I believe that IDLs make a lot of exclusionary
              assumptions
              > about the kind of language and runtime environment a developer is using.
              I
              > don't happen to use an environment that can make good use of them, or
              > generate them automatically, and I'm far from alone in that -- most Web
              > application environments are dynamic -- you don't know the types of the
              > parameters and can't without adding a lot of overhead for app developers.
              > Java and .Net are different, they're static environments, more power to
              you
              > if you like programming that way -- but I like to let the environment do
              a
              > lot of work for me in handing a type coercion. I'm not going back to
              static
              > environments. Dave
              >
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Doug Davis" <dug@...>
              > To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 9:07 AM
              > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
              >
              >
              > > (Speaking just for myself - ignore the mail address 8-)
              > >
              > > Dave wrote:
              > > >It can only work in static environments such as Java and .Net and not
              in
              > > >dynamic environments that are popular with Web developers, including
              but
              > > not
              > > >limited to Perl, Python, PHP, and UserLand Frontier.
              > >
              > > If WSDL does not work in a particular use-case then propose something
              > > that will - if its good enough people (including IBM and MS) I'm sure
              > will
              > > be interesting in playing too.
              > >
              > > >Today WSDL is not a basis for interop. If there is interop it's only
              > > >between Java and .Net.
              > >
              > > I don't believe the guys on SOAPBuilders would agree with this - I'm
              > > pretty sure there are other SOAP processors joining in.
              > >
              > > >There can be no significant support for this by independent developers
              > > >because it shuts them out.
              > >
              > > Whether or not it shuts people out is no indication of whether the
              > > technology/ideas behind WSDL are good or not.
              > > I'm no huge fan of WSDL - but it seems to fit a need - and I'm sure
              when
              > > (not "if" but "when") something else comes along if it is better than
              > WSDL
              > > people will try to support it.
              > >
              > > >These companies want the endorsement of the W3C. They're trying to
              > > redefine
              > > >the rules so that only their products can satisfy them. This is a good
              > > test of
              > > >the W3C's independence from the big companies.
              > > >Philosophically this faceoff is directly comparable to the
              > tightly-coupled
              > >
              > > >and managed hypertext environments that were theorized before the
              > > >loosely-coupled HTML-HTTP web came along, and wiped out all the
              > theories.
              > > SOAP
              > > >alone, without the tight coupling promised by WSDL, is being widely
              > > deployed,
              > > >without Microsoft and IBM. This must irk them. But don't thwart the
              > spirit
              > > of
              > > >the Web, it's still alive, in this venue.
              > > >Tell Microsoft and IBM to go back to the drawing board. It's the right
              > > >thing to do, maybe next time around they won't create such a
              > self-serving
              > > >specification that goes against the interests of independent
              developers.
              > >
              > > So what's your proposal? Or, if you've offered one why is it not
              > > taking off?
              > >
              > > -Dug
              > >
              > >
              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >


              To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            • Dave Winer
              I don t know what it means for WSDL to be too static -- since you re saying that s what I think, I guess I d better understand what you mean by that. ;- The
              Message 6 of 25 , Nov 5, 2001
                I don't know what it means for WSDL to be "too static" -- since you're
                saying that's what I think, I guess I'd better understand what you mean by
                that. ;->

                The problem is this -- in a dynamic environment, I can't automatically
                generate WSDL because while I may know the number of incoming params, I have
                no idea what their type is. Only the programmer knows. And the script may be
                able to handle lots of different types. Dynamic environments such as our
                Frontier have built-in type coercion. Same thing is true for return values.
                Without forcing a new constraint on programmers, which I don't want to do,
                there's no way to know what the type of the return value is.

                So in order for WSDL to work in a dynamic environment as a server the
                programmer has to write some docs. I suppose you could write the docs in
                WSDL, but English works better for me, both as a writer and a reader. In all
                likelihood I have to write the docs anyway, so why not stop there.

                Somehow we, as an industry, got on this treadmill. Some people at IBM and
                Microsoft decided that WSDL is a requirement, and they've got a lot of other
                people echoing them without a clue what they're talking about. It's the old
                tight-coupling vs loose-coupling thing again.

                Dave


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Doug Davis" <dug@...>
                To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 10:41 AM
                Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL


                > Well, sure that stuff can work but one of the benefits
                > of WSDL (or supposed benefits 8-) is that it makes it
                > easier to do this stuff programmatically. I don't see
                > how WSDL solves it yet - I still believe that a human
                > will need to be heavily involved in the process, but
                > I guess I always hoped that WSDL was just a step in the
                > process of coming up with the solution that will not
                > require a human. We're not there yet, and probably
                > not that close - but people are trying. Docs, samples
                > and mailing lists are a fall-back solution to me.
                >
                > It is interesting that you see WSDL as too static, but
                > Docs and samples are not. Seems like WSDL could change
                > just as often (and probably with less headaches) than
                > docs/samples.
                >
                > -Dug
                >
                > ps. Again - my opinions! 8-)
                >
                >
                > "Dave Winer" <dave@...> on 11/05/2001 01:31:19 PM
                >
                > Please respond to soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                > cc:
                > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
                >
                >
                >
                > Good question!
                >
                > 1. Docs.
                >
                > 2. Sample code.
                >
                > 3. A mail list.
                >
                > Now a philosophical question. Why do people ask this question so often. Is
                > it a mystery? Isn't this how it's always worked?
                >
                > Dave
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Doug Davis" <dug@...>
                > To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 10:27 AM
                > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
                >
                >
                > > Well, let's continue this then with the assumptions you've
                > > mentioned: everything is dynamic and it costs a lot to
                > > produce something static (like WSDL).
                > > If I'm a client and I want to talk to your getQuote service
                > > (ignore for a moment how I know you're even offering it),
                > > how do I know what to send? You're not going to provide me
                > > with something like WSDL (too static), so how do I know what
                > > parameters your getQuote takes? Or what headers you're
                > > expecting?
                > > -Dug
                > >
                > >
                > > "Dave Winer" <dave@...> on 11/05/2001 12:47:13 PM
                > >
                > > Please respond to soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com
                > >
                > > To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                > > cc:
                > > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Doug, please consider that I believe point 6 to be true (and perhaps the
                > > most important of the points). Therefore I'm not going to propose
                > something
                > > here -- because I believe that IDLs make a lot of exclusionary
                > assumptions
                > > about the kind of language and runtime environment a developer is using.
                > I
                > > don't happen to use an environment that can make good use of them, or
                > > generate them automatically, and I'm far from alone in that -- most Web
                > > application environments are dynamic -- you don't know the types of the
                > > parameters and can't without adding a lot of overhead for app
                developers.
                > > Java and .Net are different, they're static environments, more power to
                > you
                > > if you like programming that way -- but I like to let the environment do
                > a
                > > lot of work for me in handing a type coercion. I'm not going back to
                > static
                > > environments. Dave
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: "Doug Davis" <dug@...>
                > > To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                > > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 9:07 AM
                > > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
                > >
                > >
                > > > (Speaking just for myself - ignore the mail address 8-)
                > > >
                > > > Dave wrote:
                > > > >It can only work in static environments such as Java and .Net and not
                > in
                > > > >dynamic environments that are popular with Web developers, including
                > but
                > > > not
                > > > >limited to Perl, Python, PHP, and UserLand Frontier.
                > > >
                > > > If WSDL does not work in a particular use-case then propose something
                > > > that will - if its good enough people (including IBM and MS) I'm sure
                > > will
                > > > be interesting in playing too.
                > > >
                > > > >Today WSDL is not a basis for interop. If there is interop it's only
                > > > >between Java and .Net.
                > > >
                > > > I don't believe the guys on SOAPBuilders would agree with this - I'm
                > > > pretty sure there are other SOAP processors joining in.
                > > >
                > > > >There can be no significant support for this by independent
                developers
                > > > >because it shuts them out.
                > > >
                > > > Whether or not it shuts people out is no indication of whether the
                > > > technology/ideas behind WSDL are good or not.
                > > > I'm no huge fan of WSDL - but it seems to fit a need - and I'm sure
                > when
                > > > (not "if" but "when") something else comes along if it is better than
                > > WSDL
                > > > people will try to support it.
                > > >
                > > > >These companies want the endorsement of the W3C. They're trying to
                > > > redefine
                > > > >the rules so that only their products can satisfy them. This is a
                good
                > > > test of
                > > > >the W3C's independence from the big companies.
                > > > >Philosophically this faceoff is directly comparable to the
                > > tightly-coupled
                > > >
                > > > >and managed hypertext environments that were theorized before the
                > > > >loosely-coupled HTML-HTTP web came along, and wiped out all the
                > > theories.
                > > > SOAP
                > > > >alone, without the tight coupling promised by WSDL, is being widely
                > > > deployed,
                > > > >without Microsoft and IBM. This must irk them. But don't thwart the
                > > spirit
                > > > of
                > > > >the Web, it's still alive, in this venue.
                > > > >Tell Microsoft and IBM to go back to the drawing board. It's the
                right
                > > > >thing to do, maybe next time around they won't create such a
                > > self-serving
                > > > >specification that goes against the interests of independent
                > developers.
                > > >
                > > > So what's your proposal? Or, if you've offered one why is it not
                > > > taking off?
                > > >
                > > > -Dug
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
              • Doug Davis
                Ah, so its the static typing of data that you see as the real problem. So, if WSDL allowed you to specify a param (or return value) without specifying its
                Message 7 of 25 , Nov 5, 2001
                  Ah, so its the static typing of data that you see
                  as the real problem. So, if WSDL allowed you to
                  specify a param (or return value) without specifying
                  its type you'd be happier?
                  -Dug


                  "Dave Winer" <dave@...> on 11/05/2001 01:49:50 PM

                  Please respond to soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com

                  To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                  cc:
                  Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL



                  I don't know what it means for WSDL to be "too static" -- since you're
                  saying that's what I think, I guess I'd better understand what you mean by
                  that. ;->

                  The problem is this -- in a dynamic environment, I can't automatically
                  generate WSDL because while I may know the number of incoming params, I
                  have
                  no idea what their type is. Only the programmer knows. And the script may
                  be
                  able to handle lots of different types. Dynamic environments such as our
                  Frontier have built-in type coercion. Same thing is true for return values.
                  Without forcing a new constraint on programmers, which I don't want to do,
                  there's no way to know what the type of the return value is.

                  So in order for WSDL to work in a dynamic environment as a server the
                  programmer has to write some docs. I suppose you could write the docs in
                  WSDL, but English works better for me, both as a writer and a reader. In
                  all
                  likelihood I have to write the docs anyway, so why not stop there.

                  Somehow we, as an industry, got on this treadmill. Some people at IBM and
                  Microsoft decided that WSDL is a requirement, and they've got a lot of
                  other
                  people echoing them without a clue what they're talking about. It's the old
                  tight-coupling vs loose-coupling thing again.

                  Dave


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Doug Davis" <dug@...>
                  To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 10:41 AM
                  Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL


                  > Well, sure that stuff can work but one of the benefits
                  > of WSDL (or supposed benefits 8-) is that it makes it
                  > easier to do this stuff programmatically. I don't see
                  > how WSDL solves it yet - I still believe that a human
                  > will need to be heavily involved in the process, but
                  > I guess I always hoped that WSDL was just a step in the
                  > process of coming up with the solution that will not
                  > require a human. We're not there yet, and probably
                  > not that close - but people are trying. Docs, samples
                  > and mailing lists are a fall-back solution to me.
                  >
                  > It is interesting that you see WSDL as too static, but
                  > Docs and samples are not. Seems like WSDL could change
                  > just as often (and probably with less headaches) than
                  > docs/samples.
                  >
                  > -Dug
                  >
                  > ps. Again - my opinions! 8-)
                  >
                  >
                  > "Dave Winer" <dave@...> on 11/05/2001 01:31:19 PM
                  >
                  > Please respond to soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                  > cc:
                  > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Good question!
                  >
                  > 1. Docs.
                  >
                  > 2. Sample code.
                  >
                  > 3. A mail list.
                  >
                  > Now a philosophical question. Why do people ask this question so often.
                  Is
                  > it a mystery? Isn't this how it's always worked?
                  >
                  > Dave
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Doug Davis" <dug@...>
                  > To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 10:27 AM
                  > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
                  >
                  >
                  > > Well, let's continue this then with the assumptions you've
                  > > mentioned: everything is dynamic and it costs a lot to
                  > > produce something static (like WSDL).
                  > > If I'm a client and I want to talk to your getQuote service
                  > > (ignore for a moment how I know you're even offering it),
                  > > how do I know what to send? You're not going to provide me
                  > > with something like WSDL (too static), so how do I know what
                  > > parameters your getQuote takes? Or what headers you're
                  > > expecting?
                  > > -Dug
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > "Dave Winer" <dave@...> on 11/05/2001 12:47:13 PM
                  > >
                  > > Please respond to soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > > To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > cc:
                  > > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Doug, please consider that I believe point 6 to be true (and perhaps
                  the
                  > > most important of the points). Therefore I'm not going to propose
                  > something
                  > > here -- because I believe that IDLs make a lot of exclusionary
                  > assumptions
                  > > about the kind of language and runtime environment a developer is
                  using.
                  > I
                  > > don't happen to use an environment that can make good use of them, or
                  > > generate them automatically, and I'm far from alone in that -- most Web
                  > > application environments are dynamic -- you don't know the types of the
                  > > parameters and can't without adding a lot of overhead for app
                  developers.
                  > > Java and .Net are different, they're static environments, more power to
                  > you
                  > > if you like programming that way -- but I like to let the environment
                  do
                  > a
                  > > lot of work for me in handing a type coercion. I'm not going back to
                  > static
                  > > environments. Dave
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: "Doug Davis" <dug@...>
                  > > To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 9:07 AM
                  > > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > > (Speaking just for myself - ignore the mail address 8-)
                  > > >
                  > > > Dave wrote:
                  > > > >It can only work in static environments such as Java and .Net and
                  not
                  > in
                  > > > >dynamic environments that are popular with Web developers, including
                  > but
                  > > > not
                  > > > >limited to Perl, Python, PHP, and UserLand Frontier.
                  > > >
                  > > > If WSDL does not work in a particular use-case then propose something
                  > > > that will - if its good enough people (including IBM and MS) I'm sure
                  > > will
                  > > > be interesting in playing too.
                  > > >
                  > > > >Today WSDL is not a basis for interop. If there is interop it's only
                  > > > >between Java and .Net.
                  > > >
                  > > > I don't believe the guys on SOAPBuilders would agree with this - I'm
                  > > > pretty sure there are other SOAP processors joining in.
                  > > >
                  > > > >There can be no significant support for this by independent
                  developers
                  > > > >because it shuts them out.
                  > > >
                  > > > Whether or not it shuts people out is no indication of whether the
                  > > > technology/ideas behind WSDL are good or not.
                  > > > I'm no huge fan of WSDL - but it seems to fit a need - and I'm sure
                  > when
                  > > > (not "if" but "when") something else comes along if it is better than
                  > > WSDL
                  > > > people will try to support it.
                  > > >
                  > > > >These companies want the endorsement of the W3C. They're trying to
                  > > > redefine
                  > > > >the rules so that only their products can satisfy them. This is a
                  good
                  > > > test of
                  > > > >the W3C's independence from the big companies.
                  > > > >Philosophically this faceoff is directly comparable to the
                  > > tightly-coupled
                  > > >
                  > > > >and managed hypertext environments that were theorized before the
                  > > > >loosely-coupled HTML-HTTP web came along, and wiped out all the
                  > > theories.
                  > > > SOAP
                  > > > >alone, without the tight coupling promised by WSDL, is being widely
                  > > > deployed,
                  > > > >without Microsoft and IBM. This must irk them. But don't thwart the
                  > > spirit
                  > > > of
                  > > > >the Web, it's still alive, in this venue.
                  > > > >Tell Microsoft and IBM to go back to the drawing board. It's the
                  right
                  > > > >thing to do, maybe next time around they won't create such a
                  > > self-serving
                  > > > >specification that goes against the interests of independent
                  > developers.
                  > > >
                  > > > So what's your proposal? Or, if you've offered one why is it not
                  > > > taking off?
                  > > >
                  > > > -Dug
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >


                  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                • Dave Winer
                  No I wouldn t be happier -- sorry for being so difficult, but I have to keep referring to item #6. 6. Philosophically this faceoff is directly comparable to
                  Message 8 of 25 , Nov 5, 2001
                    No I wouldn't be happier -- sorry for being so difficult, but I have to keep
                    referring to item #6.

                    "6. Philosophically this faceoff is directly comparable to the
                    tightly-coupled and managed hypertext environments that were theorized
                    before the loosely-coupled HTML-HTTP web came along, and wiped out all the
                    theories. SOAP alone, without the tight coupling promised by WSDL, is being
                    widely deployed, without Microsoft and IBM. This must irk them. But don't
                    thwart the spirit of the Web, it's still alive, in this venue."

                    BTW, I tried doing an IDL [1] that could possibly work with dynamic
                    environments, and it was such a labor with so little love, I believe our
                    time is much better spent writing killer apps and worrying less about
                    synthetic hurdles that just postpone nirvana.

                    Dave

                    [1] http://www.xmlrpc.com/alidl


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Doug Davis" <dug@...>
                    To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 10:54 AM
                    Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL


                    > Ah, so its the static typing of data that you see
                    > as the real problem. So, if WSDL allowed you to
                    > specify a param (or return value) without specifying
                    > its type you'd be happier?
                    > -Dug
                    >
                    >
                    > "Dave Winer" <dave@...> on 11/05/2001 01:49:50 PM
                    >
                    > Please respond to soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                    > cc:
                    > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I don't know what it means for WSDL to be "too static" -- since you're
                    > saying that's what I think, I guess I'd better understand what you mean by
                    > that. ;->
                    >
                    > The problem is this -- in a dynamic environment, I can't automatically
                    > generate WSDL because while I may know the number of incoming params, I
                    > have
                    > no idea what their type is. Only the programmer knows. And the script may
                    > be
                    > able to handle lots of different types. Dynamic environments such as our
                    > Frontier have built-in type coercion. Same thing is true for return
                    values.
                    > Without forcing a new constraint on programmers, which I don't want to do,
                    > there's no way to know what the type of the return value is.
                    >
                    > So in order for WSDL to work in a dynamic environment as a server the
                    > programmer has to write some docs. I suppose you could write the docs in
                    > WSDL, but English works better for me, both as a writer and a reader. In
                    > all
                    > likelihood I have to write the docs anyway, so why not stop there.
                    >
                    > Somehow we, as an industry, got on this treadmill. Some people at IBM and
                    > Microsoft decided that WSDL is a requirement, and they've got a lot of
                    > other
                    > people echoing them without a clue what they're talking about. It's the
                    old
                    > tight-coupling vs loose-coupling thing again.
                    >
                    > Dave
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "Doug Davis" <dug@...>
                    > To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 10:41 AM
                    > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
                    >
                    >
                    > > Well, sure that stuff can work but one of the benefits
                    > > of WSDL (or supposed benefits 8-) is that it makes it
                    > > easier to do this stuff programmatically. I don't see
                    > > how WSDL solves it yet - I still believe that a human
                    > > will need to be heavily involved in the process, but
                    > > I guess I always hoped that WSDL was just a step in the
                    > > process of coming up with the solution that will not
                    > > require a human. We're not there yet, and probably
                    > > not that close - but people are trying. Docs, samples
                    > > and mailing lists are a fall-back solution to me.
                    > >
                    > > It is interesting that you see WSDL as too static, but
                    > > Docs and samples are not. Seems like WSDL could change
                    > > just as often (and probably with less headaches) than
                    > > docs/samples.
                    > >
                    > > -Dug
                    > >
                    > > ps. Again - my opinions! 8-)
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > "Dave Winer" <dave@...> on 11/05/2001 01:31:19 PM
                    > >
                    > > Please respond to soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com
                    > >
                    > > To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > cc:
                    > > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Good question!
                    > >
                    > > 1. Docs.
                    > >
                    > > 2. Sample code.
                    > >
                    > > 3. A mail list.
                    > >
                    > > Now a philosophical question. Why do people ask this question so often.
                    > Is
                    > > it a mystery? Isn't this how it's always worked?
                    > >
                    > > Dave
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: "Doug Davis" <dug@...>
                    > > To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 10:27 AM
                    > > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > > Well, let's continue this then with the assumptions you've
                    > > > mentioned: everything is dynamic and it costs a lot to
                    > > > produce something static (like WSDL).
                    > > > If I'm a client and I want to talk to your getQuote service
                    > > > (ignore for a moment how I know you're even offering it),
                    > > > how do I know what to send? You're not going to provide me
                    > > > with something like WSDL (too static), so how do I know what
                    > > > parameters your getQuote takes? Or what headers you're
                    > > > expecting?
                    > > > -Dug
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > "Dave Winer" <dave@...> on 11/05/2001 12:47:13 PM
                    > > >
                    > > > Please respond to soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com
                    > > >
                    > > > To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > > cc:
                    > > > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Doug, please consider that I believe point 6 to be true (and perhaps
                    > the
                    > > > most important of the points). Therefore I'm not going to propose
                    > > something
                    > > > here -- because I believe that IDLs make a lot of exclusionary
                    > > assumptions
                    > > > about the kind of language and runtime environment a developer is
                    > using.
                    > > I
                    > > > don't happen to use an environment that can make good use of them, or
                    > > > generate them automatically, and I'm far from alone in that -- most
                    Web
                    > > > application environments are dynamic -- you don't know the types of
                    the
                    > > > parameters and can't without adding a lot of overhead for app
                    > developers.
                    > > > Java and .Net are different, they're static environments, more power
                    to
                    > > you
                    > > > if you like programming that way -- but I like to let the environment
                    > do
                    > > a
                    > > > lot of work for me in handing a type coercion. I'm not going back to
                    > > static
                    > > > environments. Dave
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > > From: "Doug Davis" <dug@...>
                    > > > To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 9:07 AM
                    > > > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > > (Speaking just for myself - ignore the mail address 8-)
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Dave wrote:
                    > > > > >It can only work in static environments such as Java and .Net and
                    > not
                    > > in
                    > > > > >dynamic environments that are popular with Web developers,
                    including
                    > > but
                    > > > > not
                    > > > > >limited to Perl, Python, PHP, and UserLand Frontier.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > If WSDL does not work in a particular use-case then propose
                    something
                    > > > > that will - if its good enough people (including IBM and MS) I'm
                    sure
                    > > > will
                    > > > > be interesting in playing too.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > >Today WSDL is not a basis for interop. If there is interop it's
                    only
                    > > > > >between Java and .Net.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I don't believe the guys on SOAPBuilders would agree with this - I'm
                    > > > > pretty sure there are other SOAP processors joining in.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > >There can be no significant support for this by independent
                    > developers
                    > > > > >because it shuts them out.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Whether or not it shuts people out is no indication of whether the
                    > > > > technology/ideas behind WSDL are good or not.
                    > > > > I'm no huge fan of WSDL - but it seems to fit a need - and I'm sure
                    > > when
                    > > > > (not "if" but "when") something else comes along if it is better
                    than
                    > > > WSDL
                    > > > > people will try to support it.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > >These companies want the endorsement of the W3C. They're trying to
                    > > > > redefine
                    > > > > >the rules so that only their products can satisfy them. This is a
                    > good
                    > > > > test of
                    > > > > >the W3C's independence from the big companies.
                    > > > > >Philosophically this faceoff is directly comparable to the
                    > > > tightly-coupled
                    > > > >
                    > > > > >and managed hypertext environments that were theorized before the
                    > > > > >loosely-coupled HTML-HTTP web came along, and wiped out all the
                    > > > theories.
                    > > > > SOAP
                    > > > > >alone, without the tight coupling promised by WSDL, is being widely
                    > > > > deployed,
                    > > > > >without Microsoft and IBM. This must irk them. But don't thwart the
                    > > > spirit
                    > > > > of
                    > > > > >the Web, it's still alive, in this venue.
                    > > > > >Tell Microsoft and IBM to go back to the drawing board. It's the
                    > right
                    > > > > >thing to do, maybe next time around they won't create such a
                    > > > self-serving
                    > > > > >specification that goes against the interests of independent
                    > > developers.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > So what's your proposal? Or, if you've offered one why is it not
                    > > > > taking off?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > -Dug
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > > > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                    >
                    >
                  • Doug Davis
                    Well, I can t speak to that one. But think of it this way - if WSDL is a waste of time at least it ll keep those meddlers out of your hair (for a while
                    Message 9 of 25 , Nov 5, 2001
                      Well, I can't speak to that one. But think of it this
                      way - if WSDL is a waste of time at least it'll keep
                      those meddlers out of your hair (for a while anyway).
                      8-)
                      -Dug



                      "Dave Winer" <dave@...> on 11/05/2001 02:04:20 PM

                      Please respond to soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com

                      To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                      cc:
                      Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL



                      No I wouldn't be happier -- sorry for being so difficult, but I have to
                      keep
                      referring to item #6.

                      "6. Philosophically this faceoff is directly comparable to the
                      tightly-coupled and managed hypertext environments that were theorized
                      before the loosely-coupled HTML-HTTP web came along, and wiped out all the
                      theories. SOAP alone, without the tight coupling promised by WSDL, is being
                      widely deployed, without Microsoft and IBM. This must irk them. But don't
                      thwart the spirit of the Web, it's still alive, in this venue."

                      BTW, I tried doing an IDL [1] that could possibly work with dynamic
                      environments, and it was such a labor with so little love, I believe our
                      time is much better spent writing killer apps and worrying less about
                      synthetic hurdles that just postpone nirvana.

                      Dave

                      [1] http://www.xmlrpc.com/alidl


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Doug Davis" <dug@...>
                      To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 10:54 AM
                      Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL


                      > Ah, so its the static typing of data that you see
                      > as the real problem. So, if WSDL allowed you to
                      > specify a param (or return value) without specifying
                      > its type you'd be happier?
                      > -Dug
                      >
                      >
                      > "Dave Winer" <dave@...> on 11/05/2001 01:49:50 PM
                      >
                      > Please respond to soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                      > cc:
                      > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I don't know what it means for WSDL to be "too static" -- since you're
                      > saying that's what I think, I guess I'd better understand what you mean
                      by
                      > that. ;->
                      >
                      > The problem is this -- in a dynamic environment, I can't automatically
                      > generate WSDL because while I may know the number of incoming params, I
                      > have
                      > no idea what their type is. Only the programmer knows. And the script may
                      > be
                      > able to handle lots of different types. Dynamic environments such as our
                      > Frontier have built-in type coercion. Same thing is true for return
                      values.
                      > Without forcing a new constraint on programmers, which I don't want to
                      do,
                      > there's no way to know what the type of the return value is.
                      >
                      > So in order for WSDL to work in a dynamic environment as a server the
                      > programmer has to write some docs. I suppose you could write the docs in
                      > WSDL, but English works better for me, both as a writer and a reader. In
                      > all
                      > likelihood I have to write the docs anyway, so why not stop there.
                      >
                      > Somehow we, as an industry, got on this treadmill. Some people at IBM and
                      > Microsoft decided that WSDL is a requirement, and they've got a lot of
                      > other
                      > people echoing them without a clue what they're talking about. It's the
                      old
                      > tight-coupling vs loose-coupling thing again.
                      >
                      > Dave
                      >
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "Doug Davis" <dug@...>
                      > To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 10:41 AM
                      > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
                      >
                      >
                      > > Well, sure that stuff can work but one of the benefits
                      > > of WSDL (or supposed benefits 8-) is that it makes it
                      > > easier to do this stuff programmatically. I don't see
                      > > how WSDL solves it yet - I still believe that a human
                      > > will need to be heavily involved in the process, but
                      > > I guess I always hoped that WSDL was just a step in the
                      > > process of coming up with the solution that will not
                      > > require a human. We're not there yet, and probably
                      > > not that close - but people are trying. Docs, samples
                      > > and mailing lists are a fall-back solution to me.
                      > >
                      > > It is interesting that you see WSDL as too static, but
                      > > Docs and samples are not. Seems like WSDL could change
                      > > just as often (and probably with less headaches) than
                      > > docs/samples.
                      > >
                      > > -Dug
                      > >
                      > > ps. Again - my opinions! 8-)
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > "Dave Winer" <dave@...> on 11/05/2001 01:31:19 PM
                      > >
                      > > Please respond to soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com
                      > >
                      > > To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > cc:
                      > > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Good question!
                      > >
                      > > 1. Docs.
                      > >
                      > > 2. Sample code.
                      > >
                      > > 3. A mail list.
                      > >
                      > > Now a philosophical question. Why do people ask this question so often.
                      > Is
                      > > it a mystery? Isn't this how it's always worked?
                      > >
                      > > Dave
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: "Doug Davis" <dug@...>
                      > > To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 10:27 AM
                      > > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > > Well, let's continue this then with the assumptions you've
                      > > > mentioned: everything is dynamic and it costs a lot to
                      > > > produce something static (like WSDL).
                      > > > If I'm a client and I want to talk to your getQuote service
                      > > > (ignore for a moment how I know you're even offering it),
                      > > > how do I know what to send? You're not going to provide me
                      > > > with something like WSDL (too static), so how do I know what
                      > > > parameters your getQuote takes? Or what headers you're
                      > > > expecting?
                      > > > -Dug
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > "Dave Winer" <dave@...> on 11/05/2001 12:47:13 PM
                      > > >
                      > > > Please respond to soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com
                      > > >
                      > > > To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > > cc:
                      > > > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Doug, please consider that I believe point 6 to be true (and perhaps
                      > the
                      > > > most important of the points). Therefore I'm not going to propose
                      > > something
                      > > > here -- because I believe that IDLs make a lot of exclusionary
                      > > assumptions
                      > > > about the kind of language and runtime environment a developer is
                      > using.
                      > > I
                      > > > don't happen to use an environment that can make good use of them, or
                      > > > generate them automatically, and I'm far from alone in that -- most
                      Web
                      > > > application environments are dynamic -- you don't know the types of
                      the
                      > > > parameters and can't without adding a lot of overhead for app
                      > developers.
                      > > > Java and .Net are different, they're static environments, more power
                      to
                      > > you
                      > > > if you like programming that way -- but I like to let the environment
                      > do
                      > > a
                      > > > lot of work for me in handing a type coercion. I'm not going back to
                      > > static
                      > > > environments. Dave
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > > From: "Doug Davis" <dug@...>
                      > > > To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 9:07 AM
                      > > > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > > (Speaking just for myself - ignore the mail address 8-)
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Dave wrote:
                      > > > > >It can only work in static environments such as Java and .Net and
                      > not
                      > > in
                      > > > > >dynamic environments that are popular with Web developers,
                      including
                      > > but
                      > > > > not
                      > > > > >limited to Perl, Python, PHP, and UserLand Frontier.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > If WSDL does not work in a particular use-case then propose
                      something
                      > > > > that will - if its good enough people (including IBM and MS) I'm
                      sure
                      > > > will
                      > > > > be interesting in playing too.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > >Today WSDL is not a basis for interop. If there is interop it's
                      only
                      > > > > >between Java and .Net.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I don't believe the guys on SOAPBuilders would agree with this -
                      I'm
                      > > > > pretty sure there are other SOAP processors joining in.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > >There can be no significant support for this by independent
                      > developers
                      > > > > >because it shuts them out.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Whether or not it shuts people out is no indication of whether the
                      > > > > technology/ideas behind WSDL are good or not.
                      > > > > I'm no huge fan of WSDL - but it seems to fit a need - and I'm sure
                      > > when
                      > > > > (not "if" but "when") something else comes along if it is better
                      than
                      > > > WSDL
                      > > > > people will try to support it.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > >These companies want the endorsement of the W3C. They're trying to
                      > > > > redefine
                      > > > > >the rules so that only their products can satisfy them. This is a
                      > good
                      > > > > test of
                      > > > > >the W3C's independence from the big companies.
                      > > > > >Philosophically this faceoff is directly comparable to the
                      > > > tightly-coupled
                      > > > >
                      > > > > >and managed hypertext environments that were theorized before the
                      > > > > >loosely-coupled HTML-HTTP web came along, and wiped out all the
                      > > > theories.
                      > > > > SOAP
                      > > > > >alone, without the tight coupling promised by WSDL, is being
                      widely
                      > > > > deployed,
                      > > > > >without Microsoft and IBM. This must irk them. But don't thwart
                      the
                      > > > spirit
                      > > > > of
                      > > > > >the Web, it's still alive, in this venue.
                      > > > > >Tell Microsoft and IBM to go back to the drawing board. It's the
                      > right
                      > > > > >thing to do, maybe next time around they won't create such a
                      > > > self-serving
                      > > > > >specification that goes against the interests of independent
                      > > developers.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > So what's your proposal? Or, if you've offered one why is it not
                      > > > > taking off?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > -Dug
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > > > > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > > > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > > > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >


                      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    • Dave Winer
                      Yes that s true and nice, but they ve got the analysts and a few developers hoodwinked into thinking it isn t really Web Services if it isn t Web Services
                      Message 10 of 25 , Nov 5, 2001
                        Yes that's true and nice, but they've got the analysts and a few developers
                        hoodwinked into thinking it isn't really Web Services if it isn't Web
                        Services Description Language. Most of the people they have convinced are
                        either very confused or very clueless. I wanted to signal to independent
                        developers that it's time to get going with killer apps and not wait for the
                        BigCo's to get off their butts and figure out what this stuff is good for.
                        Just Say Soap. Dave


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Doug Davis" <dug@...>
                        To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 11:10 AM
                        Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL


                        > Well, I can't speak to that one. But think of it this
                        > way - if WSDL is a waste of time at least it'll keep
                        > those meddlers out of your hair (for a while anyway).
                        > 8-)
                        > -Dug
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > "Dave Winer" <dave@...> on 11/05/2001 02:04:20 PM
                        >
                        > Please respond to soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                        > cc:
                        > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > No I wouldn't be happier -- sorry for being so difficult, but I have to
                        > keep
                        > referring to item #6.
                        >
                        > "6. Philosophically this faceoff is directly comparable to the
                        > tightly-coupled and managed hypertext environments that were theorized
                        > before the loosely-coupled HTML-HTTP web came along, and wiped out all the
                        > theories. SOAP alone, without the tight coupling promised by WSDL, is
                        being
                        > widely deployed, without Microsoft and IBM. This must irk them. But don't
                        > thwart the spirit of the Web, it's still alive, in this venue."
                        >
                        > BTW, I tried doing an IDL [1] that could possibly work with dynamic
                        > environments, and it was such a labor with so little love, I believe our
                        > time is much better spent writing killer apps and worrying less about
                        > synthetic hurdles that just postpone nirvana.
                        >
                        > Dave
                        >
                        > [1] http://www.xmlrpc.com/alidl
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "Doug Davis" <dug@...>
                        > To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 10:54 AM
                        > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
                        >
                        >
                        > > Ah, so its the static typing of data that you see
                        > > as the real problem. So, if WSDL allowed you to
                        > > specify a param (or return value) without specifying
                        > > its type you'd be happier?
                        > > -Dug
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > "Dave Winer" <dave@...> on 11/05/2001 01:49:50 PM
                        > >
                        > > Please respond to soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com
                        > >
                        > > To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > cc:
                        > > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > I don't know what it means for WSDL to be "too static" -- since you're
                        > > saying that's what I think, I guess I'd better understand what you mean
                        > by
                        > > that. ;->
                        > >
                        > > The problem is this -- in a dynamic environment, I can't automatically
                        > > generate WSDL because while I may know the number of incoming params, I
                        > > have
                        > > no idea what their type is. Only the programmer knows. And the script
                        may
                        > > be
                        > > able to handle lots of different types. Dynamic environments such as our
                        > > Frontier have built-in type coercion. Same thing is true for return
                        > values.
                        > > Without forcing a new constraint on programmers, which I don't want to
                        > do,
                        > > there's no way to know what the type of the return value is.
                        > >
                        > > So in order for WSDL to work in a dynamic environment as a server the
                        > > programmer has to write some docs. I suppose you could write the docs in
                        > > WSDL, but English works better for me, both as a writer and a reader. In
                        > > all
                        > > likelihood I have to write the docs anyway, so why not stop there.
                        > >
                        > > Somehow we, as an industry, got on this treadmill. Some people at IBM
                        and
                        > > Microsoft decided that WSDL is a requirement, and they've got a lot of
                        > > other
                        > > people echoing them without a clue what they're talking about. It's the
                        > old
                        > > tight-coupling vs loose-coupling thing again.
                        > >
                        > > Dave
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: "Doug Davis" <dug@...>
                        > > To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 10:41 AM
                        > > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > > Well, sure that stuff can work but one of the benefits
                        > > > of WSDL (or supposed benefits 8-) is that it makes it
                        > > > easier to do this stuff programmatically. I don't see
                        > > > how WSDL solves it yet - I still believe that a human
                        > > > will need to be heavily involved in the process, but
                        > > > I guess I always hoped that WSDL was just a step in the
                        > > > process of coming up with the solution that will not
                        > > > require a human. We're not there yet, and probably
                        > > > not that close - but people are trying. Docs, samples
                        > > > and mailing lists are a fall-back solution to me.
                        > > >
                        > > > It is interesting that you see WSDL as too static, but
                        > > > Docs and samples are not. Seems like WSDL could change
                        > > > just as often (and probably with less headaches) than
                        > > > docs/samples.
                        > > >
                        > > > -Dug
                        > > >
                        > > > ps. Again - my opinions! 8-)
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > "Dave Winer" <dave@...> on 11/05/2001 01:31:19 PM
                        > > >
                        > > > Please respond to soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com
                        > > >
                        > > > To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > > cc:
                        > > > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Good question!
                        > > >
                        > > > 1. Docs.
                        > > >
                        > > > 2. Sample code.
                        > > >
                        > > > 3. A mail list.
                        > > >
                        > > > Now a philosophical question. Why do people ask this question so
                        often.
                        > > Is
                        > > > it a mystery? Isn't this how it's always worked?
                        > > >
                        > > > Dave
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > > From: "Doug Davis" <dug@...>
                        > > > To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 10:27 AM
                        > > > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > > Well, let's continue this then with the assumptions you've
                        > > > > mentioned: everything is dynamic and it costs a lot to
                        > > > > produce something static (like WSDL).
                        > > > > If I'm a client and I want to talk to your getQuote service
                        > > > > (ignore for a moment how I know you're even offering it),
                        > > > > how do I know what to send? You're not going to provide me
                        > > > > with something like WSDL (too static), so how do I know what
                        > > > > parameters your getQuote takes? Or what headers you're
                        > > > > expecting?
                        > > > > -Dug
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > "Dave Winer" <dave@...> on 11/05/2001 12:47:13 PM
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Please respond to soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > >
                        > > > > To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > > > cc:
                        > > > > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Doug, please consider that I believe point 6 to be true (and perhaps
                        > > the
                        > > > > most important of the points). Therefore I'm not going to propose
                        > > > something
                        > > > > here -- because I believe that IDLs make a lot of exclusionary
                        > > > assumptions
                        > > > > about the kind of language and runtime environment a developer is
                        > > using.
                        > > > I
                        > > > > don't happen to use an environment that can make good use of them,
                        or
                        > > > > generate them automatically, and I'm far from alone in that -- most
                        > Web
                        > > > > application environments are dynamic -- you don't know the types of
                        > the
                        > > > > parameters and can't without adding a lot of overhead for app
                        > > developers.
                        > > > > Java and .Net are different, they're static environments, more power
                        > to
                        > > > you
                        > > > > if you like programming that way -- but I like to let the
                        environment
                        > > do
                        > > > a
                        > > > > lot of work for me in handing a type coercion. I'm not going back to
                        > > > static
                        > > > > environments. Dave
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > > > From: "Doug Davis" <dug@...>
                        > > > > To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > > > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 9:07 AM
                        > > > > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > > (Speaking just for myself - ignore the mail address 8-)
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Dave wrote:
                        > > > > > >It can only work in static environments such as Java and .Net and
                        > > not
                        > > > in
                        > > > > > >dynamic environments that are popular with Web developers,
                        > including
                        > > > but
                        > > > > > not
                        > > > > > >limited to Perl, Python, PHP, and UserLand Frontier.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > If WSDL does not work in a particular use-case then propose
                        > something
                        > > > > > that will - if its good enough people (including IBM and MS) I'm
                        > sure
                        > > > > will
                        > > > > > be interesting in playing too.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > >Today WSDL is not a basis for interop. If there is interop it's
                        > only
                        > > > > > >between Java and .Net.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I don't believe the guys on SOAPBuilders would agree with this -
                        > I'm
                        > > > > > pretty sure there are other SOAP processors joining in.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > >There can be no significant support for this by independent
                        > > developers
                        > > > > > >because it shuts them out.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Whether or not it shuts people out is no indication of whether the
                        > > > > > technology/ideas behind WSDL are good or not.
                        > > > > > I'm no huge fan of WSDL - but it seems to fit a need - and I'm
                        sure
                        > > > when
                        > > > > > (not "if" but "when") something else comes along if it is better
                        > than
                        > > > > WSDL
                        > > > > > people will try to support it.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > >These companies want the endorsement of the W3C. They're trying
                        to
                        > > > > > redefine
                        > > > > > >the rules so that only their products can satisfy them. This is a
                        > > good
                        > > > > > test of
                        > > > > > >the W3C's independence from the big companies.
                        > > > > > >Philosophically this faceoff is directly comparable to the
                        > > > > tightly-coupled
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > >and managed hypertext environments that were theorized before the
                        > > > > > >loosely-coupled HTML-HTTP web came along, and wiped out all the
                        > > > > theories.
                        > > > > > SOAP
                        > > > > > >alone, without the tight coupling promised by WSDL, is being
                        > widely
                        > > > > > deployed,
                        > > > > > >without Microsoft and IBM. This must irk them. But don't thwart
                        > the
                        > > > > spirit
                        > > > > > of
                        > > > > > >the Web, it's still alive, in this venue.
                        > > > > > >Tell Microsoft and IBM to go back to the drawing board. It's the
                        > > right
                        > > > > > >thing to do, maybe next time around they won't create such a
                        > > > > self-serving
                        > > > > > >specification that goes against the interests of independent
                        > > > developers.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > So what's your proposal? Or, if you've offered one why is it not
                        > > > > > taking off?
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > -Dug
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > > > > > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                        > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > > > > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                        > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
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                        > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
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                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                        > > >
                        > > >
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                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
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                        > >
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                      • Julian Bond
                        In article , Dave Winer writes ... Isn t this back to front? It s the programmer producing the
                        Message 11 of 25 , Nov 5, 2001
                          In article <0c3c01c1662a$b00d0f30$33a1dc40@murphy>, Dave Winer
                          <dave@...> writes
                          >The problem is this -- in a dynamic environment, I can't automatically
                          >generate WSDL because while I may know the number of incoming params, I have
                          >no idea what their type is. Only the programmer knows.

                          Isn't this back to front? It's the programmer producing the server that
                          needs to generate the WSDL and presumably they know what types the
                          parameters are?

                          And as for the reader of the WSDL, writing the client, they already know
                          how to convert the SOAP types to their local internal types.

                          If this is an argument about strong typing, last time I looked both SOAP
                          and XML-RPC were inherently string typed, and weakly typed environments
                          like PHP already have to jump through hoops to cope with them. Adding an
                          additional translation layer to dynamically connect to a server via WSDL
                          looks hard but not impossible. The issue of typing is no different from
                          what we're already having to cope with.

                          This also ignores the end-point definitions in WSDL. Once you've built
                          the client that connects to a specific server, WSDL could provide a
                          mechanism to redirect to a new instance of the server without any other
                          configuration.

                          In article <9s6r0h+9bd@...>, tblanchard2@... writes
                          >From: "Doug Davis" <dug@u...>
                          >Incidentally - in your first rant - I could replace the phrase WSDL
                          >with SOAP and add Userland to the list of company names and you'd
                          >pretty well capture how I feel about SOAP.

                          LOL! And even more so with XML-RPC, but that's another story ;-)

                          --
                          Julian Bond email: julian_bond@...
                          CV/Resume: http://www.voidstar.com/cv/
                          WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/
                          M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
                          ICQ:33679568 tag:So many words, so little time
                        • Simon Fell
                          Dave, I can follow your points except this one, how is an english document that describes how to call getQuote any less coupled than a chunk of XML that
                          Message 12 of 25 , Nov 5, 2001
                            Dave,

                            I can follow your points except this one, how is an english document
                            that describes how to call getQuote any less coupled than a chunk of
                            XML that describes how to call getQuote ?

                            Tx
                            Simon

                            --- In soap-newbies@y..., "Dave Winer" <dave@u...> wrote:
                            > No I wouldn't be happier -- sorry for being so difficult,
                            > but I have to keep referring to item #6.
                            >
                            > "6. Philosophically this faceoff is directly comparable to the
                            > tightly-coupled and managed hypertext environments that were
                            > theorized before the loosely-coupled HTML-HTTP web came along,
                            > and wiped out all the theories. SOAP alone, without the tight
                            > coupling promised by WSDL, is being widely deployed, without
                            > Microsoft and IBM. This must irk them. But don't thwart the
                            > spirit of the Web, it's still alive, in this venue."
                            >
                            > BTW, I tried doing an IDL [1] that could possibly work with dynamic
                            > environments, and it was such a labor with so little love,
                            > I believe our time is much better spent writing killer apps
                            > and worrying less about synthetic hurdles that just postpone
                            > nirvana.
                            >
                            > Dave
                            >
                            > [1] http://www.xmlrpc.com/alidl
                          • will_conant@hotmail.com
                            My first response to WSDL was, What s the point of this, I ll still need documentation. Then, I had to write some SOAP stuff with Java. I ended up using GLUE
                            Message 13 of 25 , Nov 5, 2001
                              My first response to WSDL was, "What's the point of this, I'll still
                              need documentation." Then, I had to write some SOAP stuff with Java.
                              I ended up using GLUE from The Mind Electric (a great product, btw).
                              Now I understand WSDL. It comes down to this (before you read any
                              further, this is my opinion and not nessisarily the opinion of the
                              creators of WSDL or whatever):

                              Java and C# are statically typed and, therefore, lame. Consequently,
                              if people want to interact with other SOAP services from Java or C#,
                              they're going to be coercing and casting types all over the place and
                              their '9' and '0' keys are going to wear out.

                              WSDL fixes this by allowing programmers in statically typed languages
                              to magically generate types for use with SOAP services.

                              My question is this: why is this a bad thing? Just because a service
                              publishes a WSDL file, doesn't meen that you can't connect to it with
                              a more dynamic language. How does WSDL affect interop?

                              (I have a few ideas as to why WSDL is philisophically a bad thing,
                              but what I'm interested in here is if it is technically a bad thing.)

                              --- In soap-newbies@y..., webmaster@u... wrote:
                              > A new message was posted:
                              >
                              > Address: http://www.soapware.org/discuss/msgReader$21
                              >
                              > By: Dave Winer (dave@u...)
                              >
                              > <i>There's a discussion among the leadership of the W3C on the
                              future of WSDL, which is an acronym for Web Services Description
                              Language. The discussion itself is off the record, but my point of
                              view is not. Here are some comments I posted over the weekend.</i>
                              > <ol>
                              > <li>WSDL was designed in secret behind closed doors by IBM and
                              Microsoft, without participation of independent developers.<p>
                              > <li>It can only work in static environments such as Java and .Net
                              and not in dynamic environments that are popular with Web developers,
                              including but not limited to Perl, Python, PHP, and UserLand
                              Frontier.<p>
                              > <li>Today WSDL is not a basis for interop. If there is interop it's
                              only between Java and .Net.<p>
                              > <li>There can be no significant support for this by independent
                              developers because it shuts them out.<p>
                              > <li>These companies want the endorsement of the W3C. They're trying
                              to redefine the rules so that only their products can satisfy them.
                              This is a good test of the W3C's independence from the big companies.
                              <p>
                              > <li>Philosophically this faceoff is directly comparable to the
                              tightly-coupled and managed hypertext environments that were
                              theorized before the loosely-coupled HTML-HTTP web came along, and
                              wiped out all the theories. SOAP alone, without the tight coupling
                              promised by WSDL, is being widely deployed, without Microsoft and
                              IBM. This must irk them. But don't thwart the spirit of the Web, it's
                              still alive, in this venue. <p>
                              > <li>Tell Microsoft and IBM to go back to the drawing board. It's
                              the right thing to do, maybe next time around they won't create such
                              a self-serving specification that goes against the interests of
                              independent developers. <p>
                              > </ol>
                              > Dave
                            • patrick.d.logan@intel.com
                              ... Someone else pointed out that static languages benefit from WSDL more than dynamic languages. I guess. But programs in languages like Java could just type
                              Message 14 of 25 , Nov 5, 2001
                                --- In soap-newbies@y..., "Simon Fell" <soap@z...> wrote:
                                >

                                > I can follow your points except this one, how is an english document
                                > that describes how to call getQuote any less coupled than a chunk of
                                > XML that describes how to call getQuote?

                                Someone else pointed out that static languages benefit from WSDL more
                                than dynamic languages. I guess. But programs in languages like Java
                                could just type cast an Object to whatever type is expected.

                                The thing I like best about WSDL is that tools are able to hide it
                                from me.

                                Whether we have WSDL or not, the thing I really want a service to
                                include is a set of tests I can read and copy from. If the tests work,
                                and there is a test that is similar to the code I want to write, my
                                job is much easier. This is better than, but not a full replacement of
                                more traditional documentation.

                                BTW it is trivial to write a distributed system in a dynamic language
                                like Smalltalk or Java (note one is dynamic and the other is
                                static). Both language support enough reflection to automate the
                                task. It is easier in Smalltalk, but not by as much as I would have
                                thought before trying it in Java.

                                A "more static" IDL like WSDL is not so much of a burden, and to the
                                degree it aids popular static languages like Java, I am not really
                                against it. If it makes life easier for the hordes of static language
                                programmers, then I will benefit from using all the services they
                                provide!

                                -Patrick Logan
                              • rubys@us.ibm.com
                                ... Shh... don t tell the independent developers working on SOAP::Lite or PHPXMLP or any of the folks at ActiveState. ;-)
                                Message 15 of 25 , Nov 5, 2001
                                  --- In soap-newbies@y..., webmaster@u... wrote:
                                  > A new message was posted:
                                  >
                                  > Address: http://www.soapware.org/discuss/msgReader$21
                                  >
                                  > By: Dave Winer (dave@u...)
                                  >
                                  > <li>It can only work in static environments such as Java and .Net
                                  > and not in dynamic environments that are popular with Web
                                  > developers, including but not limited to Perl, Python, PHP, and
                                  > UserLand Frontier.<p>
                                  > <li>There can be no significant support for this by independent
                                  > developers because it shuts them out.<p>

                                  Shh... don't tell the independent developers working on SOAP::Lite
                                  or PHPXMLP or any of the folks at ActiveState.

                                  ;-)
                                • Dave Winer
                                  Hi Sam -- it d be great to see a Howto for Perl and PHP programmers. It s easy to say you re doing something ugly and fragile. I ve seen it done many times.
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Nov 5, 2001
                                    Hi Sam -- it'd be great to see a Howto for Perl and PHP programmers.

                                    It's easy to say you're doing something ugly and fragile. I've seen it done
                                    many times.

                                    Have a nice day.

                                    Dave


                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: <rubys@...>
                                    To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 6:48 PM
                                    Subject: [soap-newbies] Re: New Message: Comments on WSDL


                                    > --- In soap-newbies@y..., webmaster@u... wrote:
                                    > > A new message was posted:
                                    > >
                                    > > Address: http://www.soapware.org/discuss/msgReader$21
                                    > >
                                    > > By: Dave Winer (dave@u...)
                                    > >
                                    > > <li>It can only work in static environments such as Java and .Net
                                    > > and not in dynamic environments that are popular with Web
                                    > > developers, including but not limited to Perl, Python, PHP, and
                                    > > UserLand Frontier.<p>
                                    > > <li>There can be no significant support for this by independent
                                    > > developers because it shuts them out.<p>
                                    >
                                    > Shh... don't tell the independent developers working on SOAP::Lite
                                    > or PHPXMLP or any of the folks at ActiveState.
                                    >
                                    > ;-)
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • rubys@us.ibm.com
                                    ... From http://www.soaplite.com/: use SOAP::Lite; print SOAP::Lite - service( http://www.xmethods.net/sd/StockQuoteService.wsdl ) - getQuote( MSFT ); ...
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Nov 5, 2001
                                      --- In soap-newbies@y..., "Dave Winer" <dave@u...> wrote:
                                      > Hi Sam -- it'd be great to see a Howto for Perl and PHP
                                      > programmers.

                                      From http://www.soaplite.com/:

                                      use SOAP::Lite;

                                      print SOAP::Lite
                                      -> service('http://www.xmethods.net/sd/StockQuoteService.wsdl')
                                      -> getQuote('MSFT');

                                      > It's easy to say you're doing something ugly and fragile.
                                      > I've seen it done many times.

                                      Huh?

                                      > Have a nice day.

                                      Back atcha. ;-)

                                      > Dave

                                      - Sam
                                    • Dave Winer
                                      1. Did you read the other messages in this thread? 2. Is http://www.xmethods.net/sd/StockQuoteService.wsdl describing a Perl app? 2. If so, how did the WSDL
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Nov 5, 2001
                                        1. Did you read the other messages in this thread?

                                        2. Is http://www.xmethods.net/sd/StockQuoteService.wsdl describing a Perl
                                        app?

                                        2. If so, how did the WSDL file get created?

                                        Dave


                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: <rubys@...>
                                        To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 7:03 PM
                                        Subject: [soap-newbies] Re: New Message: Comments on WSDL


                                        > --- In soap-newbies@y..., "Dave Winer" <dave@u...> wrote:
                                        > > Hi Sam -- it'd be great to see a Howto for Perl and PHP
                                        > > programmers.
                                        >
                                        > From http://www.soaplite.com/:
                                        >
                                        > use SOAP::Lite;
                                        >
                                        > print SOAP::Lite
                                        > -> service('http://www.xmethods.net/sd/StockQuoteService.wsdl')
                                        > -> getQuote('MSFT');
                                        >
                                        > > It's easy to say you're doing something ugly and fragile.
                                        > > I've seen it done many times.
                                        >
                                        > Huh?
                                        >
                                        > > Have a nice day.
                                        >
                                        > Back atcha. ;-)
                                        >
                                        > > Dave
                                        >
                                        > - Sam
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                        > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • rubys@us.ibm.com
                                        Short answers first, then a more complete discussion. ... Yes. ... I don t know. But you will find a similar Perl app on
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Nov 5, 2001
                                          Short answers first, then a more complete discussion.

                                          --- In soap-newbies@y..., "Dave Winer" <dave@u...> wrote:
                                          > 1. Did you read the other messages in this thread?

                                          Yes.

                                          > 2. Is http://www.xmethods.net/sd/StockQuoteService.wsdl describing
                                          > a Perl app?

                                          I don't know. But you will find a similar Perl app on

                                          http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Reference/Products/PerlEx/WebService
                                          s.html

                                          > 2. If so, how did the WSDL file get created?

                                          http://localhost/PerlEx/soap.plex?wsdl.

                                          > Dave

                                          Now for the more complete answers.

                                          (1) I was responding primarily to your original self described
                                          rant. It states no significant support for WSDL is possible. I
                                          view consuming WSDL as significant. If for no other reason, it
                                          saves you from typing the parameter names in languages which do
                                          positional parameter notation.

                                          (2) It is fair to point out that additional information is
                                          required over and above what dynamic languages require in order
                                          to interoperate successfully with less capable languages (it is no
                                          secret that I'm a big fan of scripting languages). One could take
                                          the position that that's the problem for the users of such
                                          languages to each deal with separately.

                                          (3) All other things being equal, those environments which make it
                                          easy for a larger set of clients to interoperate out of the box
                                          will be advantaged over those that don't.

                                          - Sam
                                        • Dave Winer
                                          Forgive me for simplifying the argument -- at least I made one -- the WSDL advocates just snow everyone and it seems no one questions the wisdom of this
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Nov 5, 2001
                                            Forgive me for simplifying the argument -- at least I made one -- the WSDL
                                            advocates just snow everyone and it seems no one questions the wisdom of
                                            this direction. You say you like scripting languages, so stand up for them.
                                            Good night Sam. Dave


                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: <rubys@...>
                                            To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 7:54 PM
                                            Subject: [soap-newbies] Re: New Message: Comments on WSDL


                                            > Short answers first, then a more complete discussion.
                                            >
                                            > --- In soap-newbies@y..., "Dave Winer" <dave@u...> wrote:
                                            > > 1. Did you read the other messages in this thread?
                                            >
                                            > Yes.
                                            >
                                            > > 2. Is http://www.xmethods.net/sd/StockQuoteService.wsdl describing
                                            > > a Perl app?
                                            >
                                            > I don't know. But you will find a similar Perl app on
                                            >
                                            > http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Reference/Products/PerlEx/WebService
                                            > s.html
                                            >
                                            > > 2. If so, how did the WSDL file get created?
                                            >
                                            > http://localhost/PerlEx/soap.plex?wsdl.
                                            >
                                            > > Dave
                                            >
                                            > Now for the more complete answers.
                                            >
                                            > (1) I was responding primarily to your original self described
                                            > rant. It states no significant support for WSDL is possible. I
                                            > view consuming WSDL as significant. If for no other reason, it
                                            > saves you from typing the parameter names in languages which do
                                            > positional parameter notation.
                                            >
                                            > (2) It is fair to point out that additional information is
                                            > required over and above what dynamic languages require in order
                                            > to interoperate successfully with less capable languages (it is no
                                            > secret that I'm a big fan of scripting languages). One could take
                                            > the position that that's the problem for the users of such
                                            > languages to each deal with separately.
                                            >
                                            > (3) All other things being equal, those environments which make it
                                            > easy for a larger set of clients to interoperate out of the box
                                            > will be advantaged over those that don't.
                                            >
                                            > - Sam
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                            > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                            >
                                            >
                                          • rubys@us.ibm.com
                                            ... I do more than say I like scripting languages: http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/aw.nsf/techbios/912318FCF05B7F1B8825676 700837E76
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Nov 5, 2001
                                              --- In soap-newbies@y..., "Dave Winer" <dave@u...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Forgive me for simplifying the argument -- at least I made one --
                                              > the WSDL advocates just snow everyone and it seems no one
                                              > questions the wisdom of this direction. You say you like
                                              > scripting languages, so stand up for them.

                                              I do more than say I like scripting languages:

                                              http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/aw.nsf/techbios/912318FCF05B7F1B8825676
                                              700837E76
                                              http://www.php.net/credits.php
                                              http://www.mozilla.org/js/language/E262-3.pdf

                                              Shortly, you should also see an announcement from ActiveState.

                                              I am also a WSDL advocate.

                                              > Good night Sam. Dave

                                              I'm not done coding yet. ;-)

                                              - Sam
                                            • david@drumkit.net
                                              Isn t it ironic that Microsoft would produce WSDL with tight coupling as Dave describes after they did the variant data type in COM? Aren t tight coupling
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Nov 6, 2001
                                                Isn't it ironic that Microsoft would produce WSDL with "tight
                                                coupling" as Dave describes after they did the variant data type in
                                                COM? Aren't tight coupling and strict typing the same here? I
                                                thought we learned the lessons about void * and variant years ago?
                                                When we have a choice, wouldn't we be better off to choose the high
                                                road?

                                                Isn't WSDL largely functioning the way query interface did in COM?
                                                By providing a way for programs to interrogate an interface at
                                                runtime, without human intervention?

                                                Isn't the idea with WSDL also to move the top layer client interface
                                                to a higher level? You can see this with the vbscript sample that I
                                                have here:

                                                http://www.watsondesign.org/gallery/windowsxp/aac

                                                The WSDL precludes _me_ from having to pack the XML myself and fire
                                                it down the wire or deal with any bizarre syntactical machinations.
                                                I thought moving these things up to that level would boost their
                                                adoption - particularly by the millions of VB programmers out there?
                                                I'm not one of them but I hacked this temperature sample together in
                                                about 10 minutes based on a nice article at MSDN and xmethods
                                                interface description.

                                                By the way, isn't VBScript a dynamic environment by Dave's
                                                definition? AFAIK, this is possible from any language that talks
                                                windows scripting host and COM. The example I present here is all
                                                completely built-in to windows xp, in a silimar fashion to the way
                                                any OSX user could do the same type of functionality out of the box.

                                                The commentary about doc is an interesting one. I don't believe that
                                                WSDL is good doc for the average coder either but product's like
                                                Glue from the Mind Electric provide a solution that precludes the
                                                server coder from needing to write mass quantities of his own doc
                                                (see the 4th screenshot down on this page, long URL - I'm sure it
                                                will wrap):

                                                http://www.themindelectric.com/products/glue/releases/GLUE-
                                                1.2/docs/glue/guide/console.html

                                                Finally, does PHP fit Dave's definition of a dynamic environment?

                                                This sure seems to handle WSDL rather nicely:

                                                http://dietrich.ganx4.com/soapx4/

                                                In the end, I've enjoyed working with XML-RPC and SOAP _and_ WSDL. I
                                                like WSDL for the ease with which my clients can interface with my
                                                server implementation. AFAIC, the higher the client layer gets, the
                                                better.

                                                -dave

                                                --- In soap-newbies@y..., "Dave Winer" <dave@u...> wrote:
                                                > No I wouldn't be happier -- sorry for being so difficult, but I
                                                have to keep
                                                > referring to item #6.
                                                >
                                                > "6. Philosophically this faceoff is directly comparable to the
                                                > tightly-coupled and managed hypertext environments that were
                                                theorized
                                                > before the loosely-coupled HTML-HTTP web came along, and wiped out
                                                all the
                                                > theories. SOAP alone, without the tight coupling promised by WSDL,
                                                is being
                                                > widely deployed, without Microsoft and IBM. This must irk them.
                                                But don't
                                                > thwart the spirit of the Web, it's still alive, in this venue."
                                                >
                                                > BTW, I tried doing an IDL [1] that could possibly work with dynamic
                                                > environments, and it was such a labor with so little love, I
                                                believe our
                                                > time is much better spent writing killer apps and worrying less
                                                about
                                                > synthetic hurdles that just postpone nirvana.
                                                >
                                                > Dave
                                                >
                                                > [1] http://www.xmlrpc.com/alidl
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                                > From: "Doug Davis" <dug@u...>
                                                > To: <soap-newbies@y...>
                                                > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 10:54 AM
                                                > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > > Ah, so its the static typing of data that you see
                                                > > as the real problem. So, if WSDL allowed you to
                                                > > specify a param (or return value) without specifying
                                                > > its type you'd be happier?
                                                > > -Dug
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > "Dave Winer" <dave@u...> on 11/05/2001 01:49:50 PM
                                                > >
                                                > > Please respond to soap-newbies@y...
                                                > >
                                                > > To: <soap-newbies@y...>
                                                > > cc:
                                                > > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > I don't know what it means for WSDL to be "too static" -- since
                                                you're
                                                > > saying that's what I think, I guess I'd better understand what
                                                you mean by
                                                > > that. ;->
                                                > >
                                                > > The problem is this -- in a dynamic environment, I can't
                                                automatically
                                                > > generate WSDL because while I may know the number of incoming
                                                params, I
                                                > > have
                                                > > no idea what their type is. Only the programmer knows. And the
                                                script may
                                                > > be
                                                > > able to handle lots of different types. Dynamic environments
                                                such as our
                                                > > Frontier have built-in type coercion. Same thing is true for
                                                return
                                                > values.
                                                > > Without forcing a new constraint on programmers, which I don't
                                                want to do,
                                                > > there's no way to know what the type of the return value is.
                                                > >
                                                > > So in order for WSDL to work in a dynamic environment as a
                                                server the
                                                > > programmer has to write some docs. I suppose you could write the
                                                docs in
                                                > > WSDL, but English works better for me, both as a writer and a
                                                reader. In
                                                > > all
                                                > > likelihood I have to write the docs anyway, so why not stop
                                                there.
                                                > >
                                                > > Somehow we, as an industry, got on this treadmill. Some people
                                                at IBM and
                                                > > Microsoft decided that WSDL is a requirement, and they've got a
                                                lot of
                                                > > other
                                                > > people echoing them without a clue what they're talking about.
                                                It's the
                                                > old
                                                > > tight-coupling vs loose-coupling thing again.
                                                > >
                                                > > Dave
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                > > From: "Doug Davis" <dug@u...>
                                                > > To: <soap-newbies@y...>
                                                > > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 10:41 AM
                                                > > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > Well, sure that stuff can work but one of the benefits
                                                > > > of WSDL (or supposed benefits 8-) is that it makes it
                                                > > > easier to do this stuff programmatically. I don't see
                                                > > > how WSDL solves it yet - I still believe that a human
                                                > > > will need to be heavily involved in the process, but
                                                > > > I guess I always hoped that WSDL was just a step in the
                                                > > > process of coming up with the solution that will not
                                                > > > require a human. We're not there yet, and probably
                                                > > > not that close - but people are trying. Docs, samples
                                                > > > and mailing lists are a fall-back solution to me.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > It is interesting that you see WSDL as too static, but
                                                > > > Docs and samples are not. Seems like WSDL could change
                                                > > > just as often (and probably with less headaches) than
                                                > > > docs/samples.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > -Dug
                                                > > >
                                                > > > ps. Again - my opinions! 8-)
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > "Dave Winer" <dave@u...> on 11/05/2001 01:31:19 PM
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Please respond to soap-newbies@y...
                                                > > >
                                                > > > To: <soap-newbies@y...>
                                                > > > cc:
                                                > > > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Good question!
                                                > > >
                                                > > > 1. Docs.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > 2. Sample code.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > 3. A mail list.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Now a philosophical question. Why do people ask this question
                                                so often.
                                                > > Is
                                                > > > it a mystery? Isn't this how it's always worked?
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Dave
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                > > > From: "Doug Davis" <dug@u...>
                                                > > > To: <soap-newbies@y...>
                                                > > > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 10:27 AM
                                                > > > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > > Well, let's continue this then with the assumptions you've
                                                > > > > mentioned: everything is dynamic and it costs a lot to
                                                > > > > produce something static (like WSDL).
                                                > > > > If I'm a client and I want to talk to your getQuote service
                                                > > > > (ignore for a moment how I know you're even offering it),
                                                > > > > how do I know what to send? You're not going to provide me
                                                > > > > with something like WSDL (too static), so how do I know what
                                                > > > > parameters your getQuote takes? Or what headers you're
                                                > > > > expecting?
                                                > > > > -Dug
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > "Dave Winer" <dave@u...> on 11/05/2001 12:47:13 PM
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Please respond to soap-newbies@y...
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > To: <soap-newbies@y...>
                                                > > > > cc:
                                                > > > > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Doug, please consider that I believe point 6 to be true (and
                                                perhaps
                                                > > the
                                                > > > > most important of the points). Therefore I'm not going to
                                                propose
                                                > > > something
                                                > > > > here -- because I believe that IDLs make a lot of
                                                exclusionary
                                                > > > assumptions
                                                > > > > about the kind of language and runtime environment a
                                                developer is
                                                > > using.
                                                > > > I
                                                > > > > don't happen to use an environment that can make good use of
                                                them, or
                                                > > > > generate them automatically, and I'm far from alone in that -
                                                - most
                                                > Web
                                                > > > > application environments are dynamic -- you don't know the
                                                types of
                                                > the
                                                > > > > parameters and can't without adding a lot of overhead for app
                                                > > developers.
                                                > > > > Java and .Net are different, they're static environments,
                                                more power
                                                > to
                                                > > > you
                                                > > > > if you like programming that way -- but I like to let the
                                                environment
                                                > > do
                                                > > > a
                                                > > > > lot of work for me in handing a type coercion. I'm not going
                                                back to
                                                > > > static
                                                > > > > environments. Dave
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                > > > > From: "Doug Davis" <dug@u...>
                                                > > > > To: <soap-newbies@y...>
                                                > > > > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 9:07 AM
                                                > > > > Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > > (Speaking just for myself - ignore the mail address 8-)
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > Dave wrote:
                                                > > > > > >It can only work in static environments such as Java
                                                and .Net and
                                                > > not
                                                > > > in
                                                > > > > > >dynamic environments that are popular with Web developers,
                                                > including
                                                > > > but
                                                > > > > > not
                                                > > > > > >limited to Perl, Python, PHP, and UserLand Frontier.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > If WSDL does not work in a particular use-case then propose
                                                > something
                                                > > > > > that will - if its good enough people (including IBM and
                                                MS) I'm
                                                > sure
                                                > > > > will
                                                > > > > > be interesting in playing too.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >Today WSDL is not a basis for interop. If there is
                                                interop it's
                                                > only
                                                > > > > > >between Java and .Net.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > I don't believe the guys on SOAPBuilders would agree with
                                                this - I'm
                                                > > > > > pretty sure there are other SOAP processors joining in.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >There can be no significant support for this by
                                                independent
                                                > > developers
                                                > > > > > >because it shuts them out.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > Whether or not it shuts people out is no indication of
                                                whether the
                                                > > > > > technology/ideas behind WSDL are good or not.
                                                > > > > > I'm no huge fan of WSDL - but it seems to fit a need - and
                                                I'm sure
                                                > > > when
                                                > > > > > (not "if" but "when") something else comes along if it is
                                                better
                                                > than
                                                > > > > WSDL
                                                > > > > > people will try to support it.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >These companies want the endorsement of the W3C. They're
                                                trying to
                                                > > > > > redefine
                                                > > > > > >the rules so that only their products can satisfy them.
                                                This is a
                                                > > good
                                                > > > > > test of
                                                > > > > > >the W3C's independence from the big companies.
                                                > > > > > >Philosophically this faceoff is directly comparable to the
                                                > > > > tightly-coupled
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >and managed hypertext environments that were theorized
                                                before the
                                                > > > > > >loosely-coupled HTML-HTTP web came along, and wiped out
                                                all the
                                                > > > > theories.
                                                > > > > > SOAP
                                                > > > > > >alone, without the tight coupling promised by WSDL, is
                                                being widely
                                                > > > > > deployed,
                                                > > > > > >without Microsoft and IBM. This must irk them. But don't
                                                thwart the
                                                > > > > spirit
                                                > > > > > of
                                                > > > > > >the Web, it's still alive, in this venue.
                                                > > > > > >Tell Microsoft and IBM to go back to the drawing board.
                                                It's the
                                                > > right
                                                > > > > > >thing to do, maybe next time around they won't create
                                                such a
                                                > > > > self-serving
                                                > > > > > >specification that goes against the interests of
                                                independent
                                                > > > developers.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > So what's your proposal? Or, if you've offered one why is
                                                it not
                                                > > > > > taking off?
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > -Dug
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                > > > > > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@y...
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                                > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                > > > > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@y...
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                                > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                > > > > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@y...
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                                > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                > > > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@y...
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                > > > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@y...
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                > > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@y...
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                > > soap-newbies-unsubscribe@y...
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                              • delza@alliances.org
                                                OK, first off there s no technical reason why dynamic languages can t use WSDL (write and/or consume). I ve seen pointers to solutions for PHP and Perl,
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Nov 6, 2001
                                                  OK, first off there's no technical reason why dynamic languages can't
                                                  use WSDL (write and/or consume). I've seen pointers to solutions for
                                                  PHP and Perl, here's one for Python:

                                                  http://www-105.ibm.com/developerworks/education.nsf/webservices-onlinecourse-bytitle/D092605075D1D67D86256A7E0042432D?OpenDocument

                                                  Note, most (maybe all?) of these languages already have mappings for
                                                  OMG IDL (CORBA). I know the Python mappings are pretty ugly, but they
                                                  do exist and can be used with CORBA and other ORBs, which are
                                                  significantly more hairy than WSDL.

                                                  WSDL and UDDI are basically attempts to strap on the infrastructure
                                                  that comes with CORBA. They're significantly easier to use than CORBA
                                                  (from dynamic OR static languages), but there's nothing really new or
                                                  earth-shattering about them (besides the Web Services(tm) meme...).
                                                  People have been doing RPC in various flavors for a long time now, and
                                                  XML can help with different aspects of that, which is cool.

                                                  Now, whether you *need* WSDL or UDDI is a matter of what you're doing
                                                  and what kind of tools you like to use. Like everything else in
                                                  computing the correct answer is "it depends." They are tools in the
                                                  toolbox and won't fit every problem. I'm not a big fan, but I know
                                                  they're there if I have a problem which fits.

                                                  A final point. Maybe Microsoft and IBM did create this in a smoke
                                                  filled room. That's how a lot of XML specs are getting written these
                                                  days. SAX was written by XML developers privy to the XML-DEV list
                                                  without consulting any standards bodies. These things all have their
                                                  place--if they're useful people will use them. Just don't believe the
                                                  hype (which applies to pretty much everything).

                                                  --Dethe
                                                • Alan Kent
                                                  Some completely personal opinions on some of the points mentioned. I am not trying to be argumentative, but I am afraid I disagree with many of the points you
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Nov 6, 2001
                                                    Some completely personal opinions on some of the points mentioned.
                                                    I am not trying to be argumentative, but I am afraid I disagree
                                                    with many of the points you have made.

                                                    > It can only work in static environments such as Java and .Net and not
                                                    > in dynamic environments that are popular with Web developers, including
                                                    > but not limited to Perl, Python, PHP, and UserLand Frontier.

                                                    This one will always be a difficult area. There will always be
                                                    data impedence when trying to get dynamically typed languages
                                                    and non-dynamically typed languages working together. If you
                                                    make it all dynamic, then supporting staticlly typed languages
                                                    will be harder. Which is more important? Well, there is clearly
                                                    no single correct answer to that one!

                                                    I think you are trying to propose that instead of agreeing to the
                                                    type of data items being sent. Personally I think this is a very
                                                    bad model. It has the potential to greatly decrease interoperability.
                                                    It requires both the client and server to implement exactly the
                                                    same automatic type coercion rules or else undefined results may
                                                    occur. Eg: think about how many date formats there are. If its
                                                    sent as 1/2/01 from a US client to an Australian server, then
                                                    the US end may say its M/D/Y where as the Australia server will
                                                    say its D/M/Y. I think for interoperability its important that
                                                    at the protocol level, values are sent through with correct types.
                                                    Relying on the protocol to 'get it right' is dangerous when dealing
                                                    with multiple language implementations.

                                                    Note that the MS Soap toolkit dynamically loads a WSDL file from a
                                                    site then allows dynamically typed VBScript to talk to the site.
                                                    I have been using it without problem talking to a SOAP server I have
                                                    been developing. So I think your claim that "it can only work in static
                                                    environments" is incorrect. It may be that it works better in static
                                                    environments, but it is already working today in dynamic environments.

                                                    > Today WSDL is not a basis for interop. If there is interop it's only
                                                    > between Java and .Net.

                                                    Again, *I* belive this statement to be incorrect. There are many other
                                                    SOAP implementor tool kits using WSDL files. There is even a group
                                                    talking about doing some WSDL interoperability testing.

                                                    > There can be no significant support for this by independent developers
                                                    > because it shuts them out.

                                                    Again, I am not sure exactly who you are talking about, but there
                                                    are many SOAP implementors on the interop list who are using WSDL.
                                                    Its certainly not only IBM and Java. My toolkit for example
                                                    relies on WSDL files. I tried to do a purely dynamic approach,
                                                    but it failed (it was early on mind you) because not all SOAP
                                                    implementations sent adequate type information in the packets
                                                    (it was optional).

                                                    > Philosophically this faceoff is directly comparable to the
                                                    > tightly-coupled and managed hypertext environments that were theorized
                                                    > before the loosely-coupled HTML-HTTP web came along, and wiped out all
                                                    > the theories.

                                                    Again, I would have to disagree I am afraid. We develop large scale
                                                    web sites for organisations. We are not a big company - we are actually
                                                    a consulting group that is a part of a University.

                                                    We find the biggest problem that most sites have had is the loosely
                                                    coupled nature of HTML. The world is much better than it was here these
                                                    days, but we always strongly recommend against using HTML as your
                                                    native format for data where you have any reasonable sized site. We
                                                    always recommend using some format that can be rigerously cross checked
                                                    and managed. The loose nature of HTML is very bad for managing data.
                                                    Its great for user interfaces, but bad for data management. We always
                                                    recommend using some other rigourous, long-life mechanism for relating
                                                    information (IDs etc) and dynamically form the URLs from that.

                                                    So I am not sure what you mean by "wiped out all the theories". I agree
                                                    that the initial mad rush for the web ignored all the theoretical
                                                    background. However, I think most people developing large sites
                                                    acknowledge that using loosely coupled URLs directly is not the way
                                                    to go. It creates serious and real maintenance problems. So I would
                                                    use the analogy in the exact oposite way. To avoid all the problems
                                                    pepole have had with loosly coupled systmes such as HTML, put structure in from the beginning!

                                                    > SOAP alone, without the tight coupling promised by WSDL,
                                                    > is being widely deployed, without Microsoft and IBM. This must irk
                                                    > them. But don't thwart the spirit of the Web, it's still alive, in this
                                                    > venue.

                                                    Out of curiosity, who is 'widely deploying SOAP'? Its hard to keep
                                                    abreast of all the activities going on around the place. I am genuinely
                                                    interested in who is 'widely deploying' it, and what toolkits are
                                                    being used.

                                                    Personally, I find WSDL files horrible. I find them confusing,
                                                    difficult to understand, etc. However, the thing I like *is* the
                                                    static nature. Its a contract between the client and the server
                                                    about how to agree to communicate. You do not have to use a WSDL
                                                    file - but the static nature of data types is extremely valuable
                                                    as it stops all sorts of messy automatic data coercion problems
                                                    (eg: you sent me a float but I expected an integer, should I
                                                    round up or down or report an error?)

                                                    Alan
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