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144Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL

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  • Doug Davis
    Nov 5 10:27 AM
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      Well, let's continue this then with the assumptions you've
      mentioned: everything is dynamic and it costs a lot to
      produce something static (like WSDL).
      If I'm a client and I want to talk to your getQuote service
      (ignore for a moment how I know you're even offering it),
      how do I know what to send? You're not going to provide me
      with something like WSDL (too static), so how do I know what
      parameters your getQuote takes? Or what headers you're

      "Dave Winer" <dave@...> on 11/05/2001 12:47:13 PM

      Please respond to soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com

      To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL

      Doug, please consider that I believe point 6 to be true (and perhaps the
      most important of the points). Therefore I'm not going to propose something
      here -- because I believe that IDLs make a lot of exclusionary assumptions
      about the kind of language and runtime environment a developer is using. I
      don't happen to use an environment that can make good use of them, or
      generate them automatically, and I'm far from alone in that -- most Web
      application environments are dynamic -- you don't know the types of the
      parameters and can't without adding a lot of overhead for app developers.
      Java and .Net are different, they're static environments, more power to you
      if you like programming that way -- but I like to let the environment do a
      lot of work for me in handing a type coercion. I'm not going back to static
      environments. Dave

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Doug Davis" <dug@...>
      To: <soap-newbies@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 9:07 AM
      Subject: Re: [soap-newbies] New Message: Comments on WSDL

      > (Speaking just for myself - ignore the mail address 8-)
      > Dave wrote:
      > >It can only work in static environments such as Java and .Net and not in
      > >dynamic environments that are popular with Web developers, including but
      > not
      > >limited to Perl, Python, PHP, and UserLand Frontier.
      > If WSDL does not work in a particular use-case then propose something
      > that will - if its good enough people (including IBM and MS) I'm sure
      > be interesting in playing too.
      > >Today WSDL is not a basis for interop. If there is interop it's only
      > >between Java and .Net.
      > I don't believe the guys on SOAPBuilders would agree with this - I'm
      > pretty sure there are other SOAP processors joining in.
      > >There can be no significant support for this by independent developers
      > >because it shuts them out.
      > Whether or not it shuts people out is no indication of whether the
      > technology/ideas behind WSDL are good or not.
      > I'm no huge fan of WSDL - but it seems to fit a need - and I'm sure when
      > (not "if" but "when") something else comes along if it is better than
      > people will try to support it.
      > >These companies want the endorsement of the W3C. They're trying to
      > redefine
      > >the rules so that only their products can satisfy them. This is a good
      > test of
      > >the W3C's independence from the big companies.
      > >Philosophically this faceoff is directly comparable to the
      > >and managed hypertext environments that were theorized before the
      > >loosely-coupled HTML-HTTP web came along, and wiped out all the
      > SOAP
      > >alone, without the tight coupling promised by WSDL, is being widely
      > deployed,
      > >without Microsoft and IBM. This must irk them. But don't thwart the
      > of
      > >the Web, it's still alive, in this venue.
      > >Tell Microsoft and IBM to go back to the drawing board. It's the right
      > >thing to do, maybe next time around they won't create such a
      > >specification that goes against the interests of independent developers.
      > So what's your proposal? Or, if you've offered one why is it not
      > taking off?
      > -Dug
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