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Re: [BSA] Re: kitewing anyone?

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  • Gear Daddy LLC
    Gman, First off, find someone who is local that can help you. Nothing is more frustrating then doing this or any sport alone. If and only if no locals are
    Message 1 of 2 , Aug 25, 2009
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      First off, find someone who is local that can help you. Nothing is more frustrating then doing this or any sport alone. If and only if no locals are around to help you then support some distant shop. If you can find a local contact, fly what they are flying before you go off the deep end. Learn the basics, TAKE A LESSON. Only take general advice from outside sales, because most sellers do not give a crap about what you buy as long as they get a sale. A local seller has to put up with all kinds of GRIEF if he sells crap, and generally will not be selling very many items. If you can not get lessons up there come down to Boise and hook up with someone here. A few of us know enough to get you in a lot of trouble...I mean fun;-)  Call Monty he is one of the best snowkite teachers I have met, and I can also help out but would rather be playing on snow. I get cold sitting there watching.

      I do not know enough about your area to give "good" advice. I can tell you what works best or what will work in my back yard. Truth is most stuff will work, but you get what you pay for. If it is cheap then it is cheap or something is wrong. Good quality is hard to come by but look around...Not at magazine ads...look at what the locals are flying. There is a reason you will see more of one style kite at a specific area. Most of the time it is because of an individual that supports them but otherwise it is what works best. I know about saving money everyone wants to save money. But generally you buy 1 maybe 2 good kites and you are covered. buy junk and you might need several more kites to fill in the holes , next thing you know you paid a bunch of money for a bunch of gear you never use.

      Foils are a Great choice for Land/snow, not so great in water, they shut down instantly but are slower, and setup is fast.  Many copy cat foil kites really are poor copy cats. If you are going to go that route buy from a manufacturer that builds paragliders, they know what they are doing.

      LEI are great for water, on Land/snow can be hard to re-launch and crashing is not really a good idea, "shut down" with safety system but can be tricky. LEI are generally faster but I hate pumping kites in cold weather.

      I would rather fly my faster LEI everywhere but my Foils on snow are just to simple and easy.

      PL ...well only weirdos fly them...just joking JB...you said it first:-) Jon does know a lot about PL kites, I have flown a few though, including many first generation prototypes. I have always been amazed at there design and flight characteristics. But...always a butt...There has got to be a reason why "I only know one person" (Besides Peter Lynn) of the hundreds of kiters I see and ride with a year that fly PL kites. But I hear they are really popular in New Zealand...Peter's home town.

      If you are only going to kite on snow go with a foil.
      If you are only kiting on water go with LEI.
      If you do both go LEI, unless you can afford both. or go off the deep end and join a bunch of PL weirdos.  Got you again JB ;-)

      LOL...but seriously, Peter Lynn is a great guy and his kites do deserve a bigger following. I miss being a team Buggy pilot for him.


      On Aug 25, 2009, at 12:09 PM, Jon Bolt wrote:

      Gman...here's some info from my first hand experience that I offer in the event it might be useful to you.
      You might recall I've been flying Peter Lynn's for years up @ Lucky Peak and out snowkiting.  Yep, I've been the lone PL ranger around here for years...the weirdo.  None one else I know of in BSA has flown them at all (except maybe the very earliest models which are dinosaurs and way unlike any recent stuff), so no one else is qualified to give you credible first hand comparisions....except, wait, Steve Linane has flown mine enough to give credible input.  I do fly inflatables too, in fact, my largest kite now is an inflatable, but my mid & small sizes are PL.  If you go after PLs, you'll want either Venom's or their new Synergy.  Vortex is OK for lessons/early learning, but as soon as you can ride & go upwind, you'll want the others because you'll find the Vortex turns slower and is slow across the window, and even the simplest tricks are hard to do with that slowness.  It's not like Venom's are some higher performance monster that're tough to manage....not at all.  Venom's were their first real "breakthrough" kite in terms of overcoming key frustrating limitations of their first 3 generations of kites, and when they came out w/ Venom's they really got it right and sold a bunch.  Vortex, although same vintage as Venom, was a downgrade model from Venom.  My primary kites (water & snow) are still my original Venoms from 2004/5 and they give me all the performance I need to have fantastic fun.  Another benefit of PL's is their durability (especially helpful in our inland un-kite-friendly launch/land conditions).  They don't have bladders or tensioned/stretched canopies that prick or tear w/ slightest contact by something other than water or sand.  Since they're not under high internal pressure or tension, they ooze around sage bushes or rocks or fences and endure amazingly nasty contacts w/ no or very little damage.  If they speed across sharp stuff, they cut like any kite, but if they fall down and float or "ooze" onto it, they ususally come away unscathed.  You don't see very many inflatable kiters that still use as their primary kites stuff from 2004/5 because, among other reasons, they just wear out & get beatup way faster.  Self-launching is very easy once you get the hang of it, and self landing is easy and they don't get beatup/torn doing either.  They last enormously longer.  I self-launch 95% of the time.  I can't see why you'd need 5-7 kites unless you get inflatables for water and foils like PL's or Ozones for snow.  I have 3 PL Venoms (10, 13, 16) that cover just about any wind condition water or snow.  If Palouse is light wind, you'll want a 16 Venom.  10m (Vortex or Venom) is 20-30 mph on water and maybe upper high teens-30 on snow.  For reference, I'm 160 lbs and ride snowboard.  If you're heavier, it'll take more wind.  Let me know if you wanna know more...

      On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 8:21 AM, Gman <surly1x1@...> wrote:

      Eddy, et. al.,

      I talked with a shop owner in Minnesota (sailing heaven) for quite a
      while yesterday.  He sails nearly everything in the shop:
      Windsurfers, Kitewings, Kites, and on every imaginable surface:
      Alfalfa fields w/ off-road roller blades and mtn boards, icy lakes,
      snow, and of course water.

      Soooo.  It appears the Illuminati was fairly accurate.  He said the
      ideal conditions for the wing are flat wide-open space with hard-
      packed snow and steady wind on skis (less resistance than a board).
      He said I would likely still have plenty of fun, but also might be
      more frustrated than if I learned a traditional kite.  My size, the
      Palouse hills, the snowboard, any powder would be working against me.
      He recommended I buy the "Wave Warrior" because it's the biggest and
      I'd need the power.  The Wave Warrior can also be used on the water
      and he said it rips there, and points better than either kite or
      sailboard.  I think because you can rotate the wing to get better AOA.

      He also offered me some pretty smokin' deals on some kiting packages
      too...Peter Lynn Vortex 10M, 12M that can also go in the water or an
      Ozone Access 10M that's a foil and he said was a breeze to set up,
      basically just put some snow or sand on the trailing edge, roll out
      the lines, pull and go. The Vortex fill up with air thru single-cell
      openings and then you have to deal with launching the air-filled kite
      which is a bit trickier. I was going to research those.

      He'd include a used trainer that I could have.  He says once I get the
      hang of it, I'd be craving more power than 10M, but that seems like a
      lot of kite to me.  There's a bunch of barbed-wire fences, power poles
      and such out here which is why kites freak me a bit.  I'll definitely
      want some lessons.  Maybe Vacation time!!!  I just had a friend invite
      me to join her at SPI! :)  But...uh...that's not going to work for
      obvious reasons. :)

      Probably want to talk to GearDaddy too.  If I were to get some kites,
      I was thinking I'd want maybe a 5-7 too.  I know I'd be seriously
      poking on that...but on the snow it should move me, and it would give
      me some time to further adapt my skills before getting on something
      that could really take me skidding across the snow. And hell...I'm not
      sinking.  I could hook in and cruise around at 5mph and probably have
      quite a bit of fun for several sessions.

      Both technologies are still on the list...the kite option is actually
      somewhat more economical too...well not if you count a trip for
      lessons...but we'll ignore that for the purposes of accounting. :-)

      Still researching,

      On Aug 23, 8:18 pm, Gear Daddy LLC <geardaddy...@...> wrote:
      > About 20 years ago Wind Wing??? Had something similar called the Wind  
      > Weapon. It took at least 30% more wind to use it and it was not easy.  
      > One of a few things I wanted to figure out but gave up on,  
      > Kiteboarding did not exist yet. I remember videos of a few crazy guys  
      > in the gorge that got huge airs only to get pummled on the landings. I  
      > played with it on skateboard and did fine on it but never had  
      > opportunity for water or snow...grew up in New Orleans :-(
      > A few years back another similar item was released, called Skimbat???  
      > Did not really take off to speak of. Again needs more wind and not  
      > exactly easy or very powerful.
      > I see very little difference between this new name and the old ones.  
      > I'm probably wrong. But G Man you make like a good promoter for them.
      > This kite wing is like a hang glider more than a kite.  Hang gliders  
      > are switching to paragliders in droves.  Because of the stronger winds  
      > needed and rigging time requirements of an HG.
      > I'll stick with kiting on snow with a foil, just for rigging speed(I  
      > use a foil ready in less then 2mins) and dangle time with LEI on  
      > water. Longer lines give huge advantage for grabbing air...like what  
      > JB said.
      > But I would definitely try one, just for the challenge.  It is like  
      > trying to ride an AirChair...those are fun but brutal.
      > It takes power to move on soft surfaces so try it on ice or concrete  
      > first.
      > Good luck with it!!!
      > Sent from
      > Eddy Petranek
      > On Aug 23, 2009, at 7:58 PM, G Man <surly...@...> wrote:
      > > Well, I guess it depends on how you look at it.  The "ease of use"
      > > factor and increased safety really appeals to me.  I see myself out  
      > > on a
      > > windy/snowy field by myself a lot and learning/assembly/launching/
      > > safety
      > > seem so much better with the wing.  Rotational tricks are definitely  
      > > not
      > > my #1 priority, and from the flying capabilities I've seen, the wing
      > > will do just fine for me.
      > > Anyway, maybe it will suck...who knows...still researching, but if I
      > > were a betting man, I'll be buying at least one.  For me, it may be  
      > > the
      > > perfect mix of kitesurfing and windsurfing.
      > > I'll be talking to some wingsurfers tomorrow.
      > > Incidentally when you guys go snow kiting, how does the last guy  
      > > launch?
      > >  He must use one of those sand bags?  How challenging is that to do?  
      > > Is
      > > that something that's easy to learn?
      > > G
      > > Jon Bolt wrote:
      > >> Hmmm...I'll keep my kites.  This wing's lift is limited by wind speed
      > >> and how fast the rider can travel.  Because of long lines, a regular
      > >> kite can be "sent" across the sky and gain apparent wind much higher
      > >> than what just the wind or rider's speed would produce (and speed
      > >> generated from pumping a kite gives it more wind range too).  Doesn't
      > >> look like you can boost anywhere near as high as w/ a kite.  And also
      > >> looks like you need higher wind to really have fun?  Also, w/ that  
      > >> wing
      > >> hangin' right over you, seems like it'd interfere w/ a lot of the
      > >> rotational sorts of tricks you can do w/ a kite.
      > >> No lines but no real fun either...
      > >> On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Gman <surly...@...
      > >> <mailto:surly...@...>> wrote:
      > >>    Hey guys!  Long time no post.
      > >>    I posted a more detailed post on snowkiteidaho and was wondering  
      > >> if
      > >>    anyone's got any experience with these:
      > >>    http://www.kitewing.com/
      > >>    I figured _someone_ must have sailed one.
      > >>    Check out the Youtube action here:
      > >>    http://www.northernsnowkites.com/Kitewings.html
      > >>    Plenty of open space up here and they may be quite nice for  
      > >> riding the
      > >>    snow-covered Palouse (assuming I can get a land owner to allow  
      > >> me to
      > >>    ride his fields).
      > >>    They look like they have a lot of the advantages of a kite w/o the
      > >>    line and launching issues.
      > >>    Hope you're having a great Summer...miss sailing at LP with you  
      > >> folks.
      > >>    G

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