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Re: [snowkiteidaho] Rant and "time for rules??"

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  • Gear Daddy LLC
    Actually on my return to shore...I was coming in looking for were I would drop my kite but your kite and lines (that I could not see) were strung across the
    Message 1 of 29 , Aug 14, 2008
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      Actually on my return to shore...I was coming in looking for were I would drop my kite but your kite and lines (that I could not see) were strung across the beach, again. Oh well my bad! 

      Fortunate for you, I lost the wind in my effort to find a better approach angle and my kite dropped, so i did not say a word.

      And for the Last time, All I care about is Safety!  I'm sorry for yelling at you and hurting "your feelings" you were being unsafe and flying the kite over head waiting to beach launch. 

      Everyone at the beach who flies their kite over head for any extended period of time, "I yell at!"   

      Ask Around! Tony, Ryan, Brad, Steve, Steve Baker, Garrett, Brian, Scott, Johnny, just to name a few guys I've yelled at.  None of these guys have blown this out of proportion.  Unfortunately you were made to look bad b/c you were holding up the group.    Who is in Denial!

      All I request is Body Drag out a little and do not fly kites over head.  

      I'm done with this!

      On Aug 14, 2008, at 12:34 AM, Jon Bolt wrote:

      Oh, I realized Eddy the reason my kite was on the beach so long today was that during setup I stopped to launch at least two other kites, and then ran over to the Barclay boat ramp to help Steve when his kite fell and was on its way to getting sliced up by the docks.  Now I'm certain I could've blown them all off, thought only of myself, and surely gotten out a whole lot more quickly.  But like my choice to wait for wind yesterday, seemed pretty clear it was the right thing to do.  I realize you were far away and are speaking without having any idea what all was really going on.  But feel free to ask those I helped if my kite being laid out so long was a problem (and it was just one kite, not two left unattended that really did interfere with others).
      On 8/13/08, Gear Daddy LLC <geardaddyllc@ gmail.com> wrote:

      I just want to get this out in the forum and cleared up b/c I was asked many questions this morning about what happened. If you are tired of hearing about this please delete now. 

      I personally think common sense & good practices eliminate any need for Rules!     Anyway, I break Someone's Rule everyday, and love it!

      The entire issue here is Safety!!! I assure you I have no issues with anyone, all I want is for everyone to have fun and set a good example. I yell because I don't want anyone to get hurt. I personally don't hear myself yelling, but I do raise my voice to be heard! If I offend you by raising my voice, know that you are not the first. Most of my outburst are momentary, I'm sure there is a drug out there that would make me a better, nicer person. I don't care what gear you fly, but as long as it is flying, it will behave similar & a foil kite is one of the best at low wind conditions (it stays in air when nothing else will, that is why they are great for snowkiting, "ok that was an unnecessary stab").
      The particular instance that created this rant is that Jon wanted the wind to be strong enough to get on his board near the beach without Body Dragging (which is exactly what he did when the wind filled back in). Instead of body dragging out to the wind like most everyone else does, he flew the kite high and over head back & forth waiting for better wind.  In the mean time, there were several people waiting in line for Jon to get out of the way. Two kites were in launch mode and there was "enough" wind, just not enough for Jon to beach start.  I was one of the kiters in line, lost my patience, and I raised my voice (yelling) to Body Drag out, which should be standard protocol! This was not a personal attack, I'm sorry if you feel it was! I was not the only one getting impatient, just the only one to say something. There was enough wind for Chris and myself to launch kites, we just could not because there is only enough room for one kite at a time to fly at Barclay. 

      Even if a "PRO" kiter is at Barclay by themselves it is a bad idea to lolly-gag around waiting for better wind. Get the kite up and get out as quickly as possible or land the kite.

      Every-time, I see a kite fly high @ Barclay I'm going to yell (or somebody should yell) to get it down. A high kite at Barclay is usually a sign of a kiter that is unaware of where their kite is or they are use to smoother winds (this instant may or may not have been the case, does not really matter). Regardless, safety first, and "I SHOULD NOT BE THE ONLY ONE PREACHING THIS!!!"  Every accident (FORTUNATELY MINOR) to date that has happened there is because a kite is flown over head and luffed, unless the lines were hooked up incorrectly.  When a kite is parked on the side of the wind window and luffs it falls right back into the wind and powers up again. As long as kite stays over water you get yanked into the water by kite. When a kite flown overhead luffs it falls until the lines tension and there is no telling where the kite will fall or direction of eventual yank. We all know that the wind is gusty and swirly at Barclay, so realize that a kite over head can luff really, really bad and that is when the "SHIT" hits the fan. 

      I also have been saying that the safest most efficient start at Barclay is a solid body drag technique, some may disagree. But if you do it and get at least 50' out then you increase the margin of Safety. By trying to put a board on at the beach most people need the kite over head (as stated earlier this is bad). Once you are out 50-100 feet, do what you want, but I guarantee that if you body drag out past the furthest Buoy (especially in light winds) your success rate at getting out increases and amazingly you will start very far upwind. Also, you will not have to contend with flying your kite over the knob(hill) if you try getting on your board immediately, and go downwind. The Knob is another place that disaster will eventually strike, but hopefully it is just to the kite. 

      If I accomplish one thing at Barclay to promote safety it would be to get everyone to preach Low kite and Body Dragging out. Please set a good example by body dragging as far from the dock as possible, if you can not body drag maybe you should find a new place to kite, because Barclay is an advanced site, and body dragging is a basic beginner skill. If you want help mastering Body Dragging skills I will be there. Some beginners will get "intermediate syndrome" (I have it all the time!!!) and think they should be launching like the better riders, therefor if better riders Body Drag a little ways out so will the beginners. Body dragging is too Easy, If you are not good at it go practice. I've been in the throat of the Dam spillway and body dragged all the way back to Barclay on one pass in light winds.

      LASTLY:   Jon is flying a PL kite and has special launch needs and I think we all can accommodate him. But, Jon, you are in the minority with your kite needs, everyone else sets their LEI kites up and runs there lines differently then you need to. I'm not saying you have no rights just consider that you really need to be considerate of the masses. While I was on the water, I noticed that your kite was laid out for an extensive period of time this morning blocking other's launch again, maybe there was no wind again, I don't know. There is a reason that PL kites are not everywhere and LEI kites are, I'm not saying anything bad about them but they are different.  So when making your rules consider that you should follow them, and adjust your habits to match the majority.

      All it will take is one person to get smashed into the dock, shelter, rest room, and an Ambulance is called to Barclay, We can all Kiss Barclay Launch goodbye.

      Be Safe/Have Fun!
      Over and Out,






      On Aug 12, 2008, at 5:41 PM, Jon Bolt wrote:

      Takes big character to respond as you did.  Hats off.  Sorry about your camera; hope it works.
      I should correct your misconception about Peter Lynns.  Just because there is enough wind to hold one aloft, that absolutely does NOT mean there is enough wind to body drag or do anything useful.  PL's just about won't luff...they'll stick in the sky when inflatables will fall...but that doesn't mean there's enough wind to ride or drag or do anything useful.  I've been using them for 6 years and I know their behavior way better than anyone around here including you.    When you can't fly an inflatable because there's so little wind it luffs, and a PL still sticks in the sky, if the inflatable surely didn't have enough to drag a kiter, why would the PL have enough???  I know my gear and you sell and use completely different stuff.
      Second, when the wind line is a half mile out and the wind hole is so huge, spending minutes attempting to body drag out to rideable wind just prolongs your exposure to the hole and its squirrely conditions, and is a certain recipe to have your kite fall somewhere along the journey out...just as yours did.  My experience there is you need to have at least enough juice so that you can get on your board quick keeping the lines with at least a little tension and get out of there.  If you don't have enough juice to keep tension, and go out and fiddle around trying to drag out, the longer you drag the more risk of failure.  You need to minimize duration of exposure to the screwy conditions.  If diving the kite is likely to stall it, you likely don't have enough wind to body drag either.  Better to wait for a puff rather than try something senseless and drop your kite and block the area for a good long time.  When you were hollering at me my kite was falling out of the sky DOWNWIND as you could see it stalling big and falling back over the beach.  I had to really pump and finesse it just to keep it up.  That didn't happen because there was plenty of wind to body drag.  Maybe your yelling produced the air that got it to go back up, so thanks for that !  Unfortunately, I didn't have a tractor 17m like Jason or an aircraft carrier deck to ride like Chris or Steve.  Those might have made getting out more doable but in those conditions at that instant, I don't think there was enough juice to do much with anything.
      Third, as far as holding the kite overhead at Barclay, in those scant winds I'm not going to hold it at the side of the window over water and lose lift when the wind dies and have it sink into the water and then hold up the whole launch area...just as happened to you in your first attempt.  And look at your explanation: "The first time I was making my way to the water to Body Drag when the lack of wind dropped my kite. I did not have enough to fly it over head."  Sounds like you preferred to fly yours overhead too but couldn't, so let's not make excuses about the hollering being a safety concern due to flying it overhead.  If my kite is a design that behaves safely and manageably when overhead at Barclay, I'm not going to do stupid things with it just so people with a completely different kite design won't be tempted to do what I do. 
      #1) I disagee with "body drag away from beach".  It should say "get going fast and get away from the beach as fast as possible...whicheve r way works safest and best under the conditions.
      #2 & #3)  If you pump your kite and setup lines AFTER you're dressed and ready, there should be no need to rewind your lines onto your bar and leave your kite and bar on the beach.  You're ready to go.  After finishing connecting, got to your bar and get launched and get out.
      #8) OK, we'll leave out the JERK
      Admirable response to the feedback.  Thanks.  As I always try, I'll do my best not to constipate the launch area.  Today was pretty unusual.

      On 8/12/08, Gear Daddy LLC <geardaddyllc@ gmail.com> wrote:

      Well said, a bit long winded, your rant is understood.  Like I said before, in my last email, I'm sorry I did not mean to make you feel bad...It is was a matter of Safety. DO NOT FLY YOUR KITE OVER HEAD ON Barclay BEACH! If you do it, then everyone does it, and eventually someone gets hurt, and we are out of kiting at LP.

      MY BAD: I went out on the wrong board and was coming back in when I dropped the kite the second time. The first time I was making my way to the water to Body Drag when the lack of wind dropped my kite. I did not have enough to fly it over head. If there was enough wind to get it over head I would have been Body Dragging. Everyone wants to put the board on at the beach and take off, it looks really kool, I know I do it too! We must stop doing this because it sets an Example that beginners will follow.

      My 2 kites were somewhat nested with no lines in anyones way, at the back of the Beach. I did not lay my kite out in front of anyone. I will place my kites even further back as you suggested so they are not in the way.

      Again, I apologize for yelling(raising my voice) but no-one should be flying their kite back and forth at BB waiting for better wind.  If there is enough wind to fly kite there is enough wind to Body Drag out, my second departure was on a 9m kite so there was enough wind. If you Body Drag out you reduce the risk of dropping your kite. Body Dragging sucks, but it works. Just accept it and other will too!

      Karma got me back for yelling and made my Camera go swimming. So Bummed...it is in the oven drying out right now hopefully it is OK!

      To your Rules:

      Add to #1 Body drag away from BEACH

      #2&3 pump kite & then layout lines, otherwise you have lines sitting on Beach waiting for something to connect to. Once lines are connected wind them back on bar so they don't sit in everyone else's path. I will gladly help anyone with technique on leaving lines attached to kite. It is way to easy and much safer!

      #4 Leave unused kites at the back of the Beach, there is a ton of room off the sand launch area. Don't forget to weigh them down & have lines secured & Clear.

      #5&6 Do not cross other lines unless you are launching... That is an Accident waiting to happen!!!!

      #7 kiters in water should give right-of-way to kiters that are on beach with kite in air, otherwise help the water bound land kite first.

      #8 Is good...but, Leave out the JERK part out, otherwise, I will never live this incident down.




      On Aug 12, 2008, at 1:41 PM, Jon Bolt wrote:

      This morning was 14m kite (or 12 & big board) and lasted a long time.  Steve Linane and I got there about 7:15AM and left just after 10:30AM.  Decent wind once you got to it.  The launch zone had the biggest longest lasting wind hole I've ever seen @ LP and the wind line went way up the channel and stayed.  Not only was there a big wind hole, but what little puffs did come by the beach were extremely southerly and swirly from coming off the hills.  Pretty tough getting out in no wind.  Eddie was the first kiter to try to get out after we got there and he dropped his kite TWICE in the water right by shore as others waiting to go helped him deal with his troubles.
      The kite launch area can now get pretty crowded with lesson takers, post-lesson newbies, and the usual crowd.  I think it's getting near the time that we'll have to establish etiquette rules to keep the launch zone as efficient and safe as possible, and avoid problems and tempers.
      Eddie, you remember when the terrible launch conditions forced me to wait with my kite in the sky, wading in water so I could be ready to go the instant some sort of puff arrived that offered some prayer of getting out?
      - I'm pretty certain if I yelled at you the way you yelled at me, you'd have lost your patience faster than you lost it when you yelled.  You'd have been really pissed if I did that to you.
      - And you had the brainfart to yell at me right after you yourself had attempted to go out and dropped your kite TWICE in the bay totally blocking the takeoff path because you couldn't keep your kite in the air???  You were yelling at me to body drag out and get out of there when those very same measures did what for you???...made you drop your kite TWICE and block the whole takeoff?  The advice you were yelling sure didn't seem too credible, based on your own experience, and another approach (like mine) seemed worth considering don't you think?  If you hadn't dropped your kite TWICE, you wouldn't have been back in line waiting to go out again nor in a position to lose your brains and yell at anyone in front of you.  You were only thinking about yourself.
      - And did you notice when your kite dropped and blocked the area TWICE, no one yelled a peep at you.  In fact, far from yelling they halted their launch preparations and came to your assistance (thanks, Jason....in case Eddie hasn't told you that yet).
      - And I didn't hear anyone yell at you for setting up 3 kites in the small staging zone, spreading them all out and making no attempt to nest them to leave reasonable room for the others that were there and arriving.  That crowding made launching much more difficult and less safe for the crowd that was there.
      - Then once you got going and were out on the water, you just left two kites unused on shore taking up chunks of our limited space and making it tough for everyone else.  That whole setup approach of yours was incredibly thoughtless and inconsiderate of other kiters.
      - And I hope you make it clear to your students that your impatience, yelling, and inconsiderate use of launch space are terrible examples of what NOT to do.  That stuff was unacceptable.  That just leads to tension and careless haste that can produce real unsafe situations.
      - I don't mind you making money at our kite spot, but I do mind if you unfairly take up space or do things that crowd out others or that make conditions far less safe.  Your business endeavors have lower priority than our recreational interests, in my view, and they better not compromise our ability (or my ability) to safely and efficiently use our spot.
      - Please be much more considerate in the future, do a better job of promoting safety, and set a better example for your students, or find another spot for your business pursuits.... perhaps you could use the boatramp as I did for many years before the beach was constructed.
      Eddie, we all know you're basically a terrific guy and have helped us all immensely (including me), and evidently you just had a bad hangover or huge brainfart or some sort of seizure.  I certainly forgive you primarily because I know what an overall great guy you are....but please be more considerate in the future.
      The above said, let me propose the beginnings of some rules intended to make use of our spot as efficient, speedy, and safe as possible.  Please feel free to add your own or disagree with any of these.  If you disagree with any, say it now very clearly so we can get it resolved.  Sadly the growing traffic makes it look like we need them.   Probably better to get these understood and agreed now than to wait for an accident to say "gee, we should have done this awhile back".  Once we agree on these, we may need to get a sign made and posted for all to see and remember. 
      1)  Place your board at the waters edge so you can easily pick it up on the way out, instead of walking around on the beach hunting it down after you launch.  (I think all of us do this now).
      2)  Be fully dressed with all gear on your body before laying out your kite and lines and pumping.  If you come out and pump your kite up and layout 100 feet of lines and then go off to get dressed and ready and bullshit a little as you do it, your kite & lines consume limited space on the beach for a longer time than if you had your gear already on and could just launch and go the moment you finish setup.  Unattended kites/lines can interfere with others closer to being ready to go out.  We need to minimize the time that kites sit unattended on our small beach taking up space.  Lucky Peak is cool in the morning and there should be no overheating problem from having to pump your kite with your wetsuit on.  If you overheat in the cold mornings, see your doctor (Binegar or Kerr will probably give you a discount).
      3)  Anyone have a suggestion as to whether a kite should be pumped before or after line layout?  Any advantages to one sequence or the other?
      4)  Setting up multiple kites is discouraged. ..after all, you can only go out on one.  If conditions (the crowd) permit, and you want to setup multiple kites ask the others on the beach for permission & support.  If they don't grant it, don't do it.  If you get permission for multiple kites, NEST THEM.  If you don't nest them, and others arrive and see unattended kites, the rule is the arriving kiters can deflate and move unattended kites (unattended either because the owner is on the water or up getting dressed).  A fully dressed & geared up kiter starting setup has "choice of beachspot" over any unattended kites/lines.  You cannot hold others responsible if an unattended kite is torn or nicked on our rocky beach when it was moved.  You shouldn't have left it there in the first place.
      5)  When you lay your lines out, lay them out as far up the embankment below the patio as possible, keeping them in a corridor at the base of the embankment.  This prevents an outgoing kiter from snagging lines of other kites or kicking & snagging a bar.  It will also allow room for self launching ( inflatables or Peter Lynns) preventing the launching kite from snagging other lines if it sweeps forward after launch in our squirrelly winds.
      6)  Lines may be layered on top of other lines, but the top most lines have to be the kiter's who is clearly closest to going out.  If at all possible, avoid layering of kite lines.  If you're going to lay yours on top of another, get permission of the kiter(s) whose lines are already on the ground.  Actually, if you are dressed when doing setup, you should be able to go the instant your lines are connected, and this should minimize any need to layer lines.
      7)  One kiter launching and in the water takeoff corridor at a time.  Wind is too squirrely in Barclay to risk multiple kites in the air at launch time.  A waiting kite in the air near shore could be a disaster if an outgoing kite luffs, detensioning lines and making the falling kite uncontrollable.
      8)  BE PATIENT & CONSIDERATE OF FELLOW KITERS.  GIVE HELP WHEN NEEDED or coaching on these rules when someone doesn't know them and is holding things up.  DON'T BE A JERK.  TREAT OTHERS THE WAY YOU WANT TO BE TREATED.  BE SAFE AND EFFICIENT.
      Please feel free to add your suggested rules.  I'll be happy to collect them, publish, and distribute to all, and investigate signage if we think we need that.  Unfortunately, I feels like we're getting to the point that these will be needed.


      Gear Daddy LLC
      (208) 863-6966







      Gear Daddy LLC
      (208) 863-6966





      Gear Daddy LLC
      (208) 863-6966

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