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Re: [snowkiteidaho] Naish demo dealer meeting

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  • Gear Daddy LLC
    The park is a good kite. It is close to the Catalyst in performance but not as quick or boosty. The Ride is their really nice kite but trailing edge flutters
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 9, 2013
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      The park is a good kite.  It is close to the Catalyst in performance but not as quick or boosty. The Ride is their really nice kite but trailing edge flutters when depowered. Trailing edges will deteriorate without center strut.   Pretty colors abound. The Draft was the race kite and guys were going big air. But when the guys on edges showed up I have never seen so fast I have no idea how they hang on 40+mph on chop. I would like to have tested bigger kites for our home conditions, but winds were relentless. My 12 stayed in bag and never saw the beach. :-)

      Eddy


      On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:20 AM, Josh Woodland <woodland.josh@...> wrote:

       

      Lucky! How do you like the Naish kites?

      On Jun 9, 2013 8:11 AM, "Gear Daddy LLC" <geardaddyllc@...> wrote:
      Did I say north...everybody knows that means up wind!!! Dah!!! :-). We kited from the campground up past the windsurfers going way outside into the deep blue water.  Amazing colors when 2 miles out.  Then came back to the area by the expensive homes but not into airport traffic.  Probably out of bounds but its an ocean out there.  Are local friends said we were fine. 
      <image.jpeg>
      Eddy
      <image.jpeg>

      On Jun 8, 2013, at 8:02 PM, Will Hise <will.hise@...> wrote:

       

      North of kite beach is the Pacific Ocean. Do you mean east? Where you rocking at Lanes? Sick waves there. Don't be breaking the rules kiting in the airport airspace or them locals will come give you a what's up. 


      I love that you're at a naish event flying Ozone!



      On Saturday, June 8, 2013, Gear Daddy LLC wrote:


      So played on the Park 8m. Fun kite but same as last years...   The ride is a nice kite but the lack of middle strut means short life span.  Next yrs will have middle strut.  Bolt is no more old kite.  Strutless kites are another gimmick. 

      Ended up playing with 10m ozone catalyst and had a ball.  Played in the waves way north of kite beach no idea on local name.  Just Jeff and myself crushing a nice break,  For 3 hrs.  Will post pictures later.  

      Learned to surf caught a party wave with Jeff and John McCabe.  Great times!!!

      Looking forward to hanging with homies. Heading back tomorrow. 

      Aloha,
      Eddy


      On Jun 8, 2013, at 1:21 PM, steve linane <itile@...> wrote:

       

      Awesome time we put on quite the show. I'm off to Maui for the week going to Naish demo dealer meeting. Have a great week.  

      Eddy
       
      Eddy
      send some pictures , get one with you and Robby . What do you think of the Park or the Bolt .
      did you ride with Kevin Langeree,See if you can get the low down on the Zero strut kites from designer Damien Girardin and Florian Daubos
      Steve
      reply ASAP



    • Jon Bolt
      lack of middle strut means short life span ... ??? propaganda from those who don t make kites w/o center struts? new folklore? Exactly why does lack of a
      Message 2 of 16 , Jun 9, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        "lack of middle strut means short life span"...
         
        ??? propaganda from those who don't make kites w/o center struts?  new folklore?  Exactly why does lack of a center strut, by itself, shorten lifespan?...is it a measurable difference ???
         
        Gavin's 2009 Kahoona was used when he bought it, and then it was his "learner" (which we know is hard on a kite), and now he still uses it as his one-kite quiver...here, Baja, everywhere...overpowered, underpowered...and still goin' strong...a 2009.  Helped him pack it up in Baja this year for the downwinders and had a good look.  It's lasted better than Rusty's old grey 2009 Edge that was far more tattered & limp & near end-of-life when he got rid of it.
         
        I had 2004 airblast w/ more struts than a pickett fence (including center strut), & ripstop canopy, & it's trailing edge deteriorated badly in just a few years.  2005 Airush Flow not much better.
         
        The fastest way to wearout a kite is NOT from normal use...it's from leaving it inflated on the beach exposed to high wind & UV...that's a pretty punishing stress test of kite durability.  When you leave a center strutter inflated on a windy beach, that center strut sticks up tall so the central canopy & trailing edge get wind-flogged. On the other hand, kites lacking a center strut lay far flatter pancaking nicely and much more parallel to wind, so canopy not wind-worked nearly so much.  Easy for anyone to see.  When I'm on a windy beach & deflating & rolling up & need a wind break, or just leaving the kite on beach to take a rest, I look for the biggest center strut kite I can find that's taking a beating...and I tuck in behind it. 
         
        But I guess if there were even a small difference in lifespan between center strut & strutless kites, one would also have to consider that center struttless kites can be as little as half the price of high-end fully strutted kites (that's a lotta green for just one strut!).  For what you spend on a high-end center strutted kite you can buy a center strutless, use it 'till threadbare, then replace it with the next generation design, and before that's worn out, the center strutted is tattered & retires...but you've moved forward a kite generation and investment-wise you're at a wash.
         
        Simplistic claims like this remind me of the days when Naish had #1 marketshare by far, and larded w/ hubris pronounced the newer "bow kites" inferior for all kinds of superficial reasons and stubbornly stayed w/ C-designs...which very quickly led to marketshare free-fall & losing #1 position, which they've never recovered. Then they scrambled from behind hyping the Sigma shape gimmick claiming it superior...which has since proven hooey since they don't make those any more: http://naishkites.com/kites/. So I wonder about reliability of these sorts of sweeping declarations, especially when they don't readily gibe w/ practical observation.
         
         
         
         


        On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 1:49 PM, Gear Daddy LLC <geardaddyllc@...> wrote:
         

        The park is a good kite.  It is close to the Catalyst in performance but not as quick or boosty. The Ride is their really nice kite but trailing edge flutters when depowered. Trailing edges will deteriorate without center strut.   Pretty colors abound. The Draft was the race kite and guys were going big air. But when the guys on edges showed up I have never seen so fast I have no idea how they hang on 40+mph on chop. I would like to have tested bigger kites for our home conditions, but winds were relentless. My 12 stayed in bag and never saw the beach. :-)

        Eddy


        On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:20 AM, Josh Woodland <woodland.josh@...> wrote:

         

        Lucky! How do you like the Naish kites?

        On Jun 9, 2013 8:11 AM, "Gear Daddy LLC" <geardaddyllc@...> wrote:
        Did I say north...everybody knows that means up wind!!! Dah!!! :-). We kited from the campground up past the windsurfers going way outside into the deep blue water.  Amazing colors when 2 miles out.  Then came back to the area by the expensive homes but not into airport traffic.  Probably out of bounds but its an ocean out there.  Are local friends said we were fine. 
        <image.jpeg>
        Eddy
        <image.jpeg>

        On Jun 8, 2013, at 8:02 PM, Will Hise <will.hise@...> wrote:

         

        North of kite beach is the Pacific Ocean. Do you mean east? Where you rocking at Lanes? Sick waves there. Don't be breaking the rules kiting in the airport airspace or them locals will come give you a what's up. 


        I love that you're at a naish event flying Ozone!



        On Saturday, June 8, 2013, Gear Daddy LLC wrote:


        So played on the Park 8m. Fun kite but same as last years...   The ride is a nice kite but the lack of middle strut means short life span.  Next yrs will have middle strut.  Bolt is no more old kite.  Strutless kites are another gimmick. 

        Ended up playing with 10m ozone catalyst and had a ball.  Played in the waves way north of kite beach no idea on local name.  Just Jeff and myself crushing a nice break,  For 3 hrs.  Will post pictures later.  

        Learned to surf caught a party wave with Jeff and John McCabe.  Great times!!!

        Looking forward to hanging with homies. Heading back tomorrow. 

        Aloha,
        Eddy


        On Jun 8, 2013, at 1:21 PM, steve linane <itile@...> wrote:

         

        Awesome time we put on quite the show. I'm off to Maui for the week going to Naish demo dealer meeting. Have a great week.  

        Eddy
         
        Eddy
        send some pictures , get one with you and Robby . What do you think of the Park or the Bolt .
        did you ride with Kevin Langeree,See if you can get the low down on the Zero strut kites from designer Damien Girardin and Florian Daubos
        Steve
        reply ASAP




      • Will Hise
        Eddy struck a nerve huh? To be fair, your sweeping declaration that center strut kites are 2x as expensive as strutless kites is the same type of misleading
        Message 3 of 16 , Jun 9, 2013
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          Eddy struck a nerve huh? 

          To be fair, your sweeping declaration that center strut kites are 2x as expensive as strutless kites is the same type of misleading declaration. Sure, you might find a strutless kite for half, but its not the same brand and you aren't comparing apples to apples. There are plenty of 3 strut cheap kites as well.

          My experience (until I moved to Idaho I flew everything I could get my hands on, had two shops that handed me gear to demo, but admittedly moslty larger size kites) with kites without a center strut has been that they have a slight increase in low end, are slightly lighter, and they deform and get nasty at the high end. That's why LF moved away from it as well as North. Its not a gimmick like sigma but that center strut really helps with canopy ridgity when under high stress.

          I'm not sticking up for Naish. They have always been the company I wanted to like (Robby is a god) but every model kite I've ever flow has left me wanting. I also just wanted to add my sweeping generalizations to the mix.

          Cheers! Its way too hot today.

          --Will

          All statements herein are my opinions, probably not backed up by much science or fact.

          On Jun 9, 2013 5:39 PM, "Jon Bolt" <idakiteman@...> wrote:


          "lack of middle strut means short life span"...
           
          ??? propaganda from those who don't make kites w/o center struts?  new folklore?  Exactly why does lack of a center strut, by itself, shorten lifespan?...is it a measurable difference ???
           
          Gavin's 2009 Kahoona was used when he bought it, and then it was his "learner" (which we know is hard on a kite), and now he still uses it as his one-kite quiver...here, Baja, everywhere...overpowered, underpowered...and still goin' strong...a 2009.  Helped him pack it up in Baja this year for the downwinders and had a good look.  It's lasted better than Rusty's old grey 2009 Edge that was far more tattered & limp & near end-of-life when he got rid of it.
           
          I had 2004 airblast w/ more struts than a pickett fence (including center strut), & ripstop canopy, & it's trailing edge deteriorated badly in just a few years.  2005 Airush Flow not much better.
           
          The fastest way to wearout a kite is NOT from normal use...it's from leaving it inflated on the beach exposed to high wind & UV...that's a pretty punishing stress test of kite durability.  When you leave a center strutter inflated on a windy beach, that center strut sticks up tall so the central canopy & trailing edge get wind-flogged. On the other hand, kites lacking a center strut lay far flatter pancaking nicely and much more parallel to wind, so canopy not wind-worked nearly so much.  Easy for anyone to see.  When I'm on a windy beach & deflating & rolling up & need a wind break, or just leaving the kite on beach to take a rest, I look for the biggest center strut kite I can find that's taking a beating...and I tuck in behind it. 
           
          But I guess if there were even a small difference in lifespan between center strut & strutless kites, one would also have to consider that center struttless kites can be as little as half the price of high-end fully strutted kites (that's a lotta green for just one strut!).  For what you spend on a high-end center strutted kite you can buy a center strutless, use it 'till threadbare, then replace it with the next generation design, and before that's worn out, the center strutted is tattered & retires...but you've moved forward a kite generation and investment-wise you're at a wash.
           
          Simplistic claims like this remind me of the days when Naish had #1 marketshare by far, and larded w/ hubris pronounced the newer "bow kites" inferior for all kinds of superficial reasons and stubbornly stayed w/ C-designs...which very quickly led to marketshare free-fall & losing #1 position, which they've never recovered. Then they scrambled from behind hyping the Sigma shape gimmick claiming it superior...which has since proven hooey since they don't make those any more: http://naishkites.com/kites/. So I wonder about reliability of these sorts of sweeping declarations, especially when they don't readily gibe w/ practical observation.
           
           
           
           


          On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 1:49 PM, Gear Daddy LLC <geardaddyllc@...> wrote:
           

          The park is a good kite.  It is close to the Catalyst in performance but not as quick or boosty. The Ride is their really nice kite but trailing edge flutters when depowered. Trailing edges will deteriorate without center strut.   Pretty colors abound. The Draft was the race kite and guys were going big air. But when the guys on edges showed up I have never seen so fast I have no idea how they hang on 40+mph on chop. I would like to have tested bigger kites for our home conditions, but winds were relentless. My 12 stayed in bag and never saw the beach. :-)

          Eddy


          On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:20 AM, Josh Woodland <woodland.josh@...> wrote:

           

          Lucky! How do you like the Naish kites?

          On Jun 9, 2013 8:11 AM, "Gear Daddy LLC" <geardaddyllc@...> wrote:
          Did I say north...everybody knows that means up wind!!! Dah!!! :-). We kited from the campground up past the windsurfers going way outside into the deep blue water.  Amazing colors when 2 miles out.  Then came back to the area by the expensive homes but not into airport traffic.  Probably out of bounds but its an ocean out there.  Are local friends said we were fine. 
          <image.jpeg>
          Eddy
          <image.jpeg>

          On Jun 8, 2013, at 8:02 PM, Will Hise <will.hise@...> wrote:

           

          North of kite beach is the Pacific Ocean. Do you mean east? Where you rocking at Lanes? Sick waves there. Don't be breaking the rules kiting in the airport airspace or them locals will come give you a what's up. 


          I love that you're at a naish event flying Ozone!



          On Saturday, June 8, 2013, Gear Daddy LLC wrote:


          So played on the Park 8m. Fun kite but same as last years...   The ride is a nice kite but the lack of middle strut means short life span.  Next yrs will have middle strut.  Bolt is no more old kite.  Strutless kites are another gimmick. 

          Ended up playing with 10m ozone catalyst and had a ball.  Played in the waves way north of kite beach no idea on local name.  Just Jeff and myself crushing a nice break,  For 3 hrs.  Will post pictures later.  

          Learned to surf caught a party wave with Jeff and John McCabe.  Great times!!!

          Looking forward to hanging with homies. Heading back tomorrow. 

          Aloha,
          Eddy


          On Jun 8, 2013, at 1:21 PM, steve linane <itile@...> wrote:

           

          Awesome time we put on quite the show. I'm off to Maui for the week going to Naish demo dealer meeting. Have a great week.  

          Eddy
           
          Eddy
          send some pictures , get one with you and Robby . What do you think of the Park or the Bolt .
          did you ride with Kevin Langeree,See if you can get the low down on the Zero strut kites from designer Damien Girardin and Florian Daubos
          Steve
          reply ASAP






        • Tonyswilliams
          I have to say that I have had and still have kites that do not have a center strut the monkey brand kite never used center strut and it was never the trailing
          Message 4 of 16 , Jun 9, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            I have to say that I have had and still have kites that do not have a center strut the monkey brand kite never used center strut and it was never the trailing edge that failed. They were almost all c kites and lacked the wind range of today's kites. But my 2004 monkey was a super kite when in the right wind range and the material never failed even when I used it a couple of times in 2010. The material is still pretty good shape but I am no longer a fan of a kite that pulls with little depower and gets jerky in gusts

            Sent from my iPhone

            On Jun 9, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Will Hise <will.hise@...> wrote:

             

            Eddy struck a nerve huh? 

            To be fair, your sweeping declaration that center strut kites are 2x as expensive as strutless kites is the same type of misleading declaration. Sure, you might find a strutless kite for half, but its not the same brand and you aren't comparing apples to apples. There are plenty of 3 strut cheap kites as well.

            My experience (until I moved to Idaho I flew everything I could get my hands on, had two shops that handed me gear to demo, but admittedly moslty larger size kites) with kites without a center strut has been that they have a slight increase in low end, are slightly lighter, and they deform and get nasty at the high end. That's why LF moved away from it as well as North. Its not a gimmick like sigma but that center strut really helps with canopy ridgity when under high stress.

            I'm not sticking up for Naish. They have always been the company I wanted to like (Robby is a god) but every model kite I've ever flow has left me wanting. I also just wanted to add my sweeping generalizations to the mix.

            Cheers! Its way too hot today.

            --Will

            All statements herein are my opinions, probably not backed up by much science or fact.

            On Jun 9, 2013 5:39 PM, "Jon Bolt" <idakiteman@...> wrote:


            "lack of middle strut means short life span"...
             
            ??? propaganda from those who don't make kites w/o center struts?  new folklore?  Exactly why does lack of a center strut, by itself, shorten lifespan?...is it a measurable difference ???
             
            Gavin's 2009 Kahoona was used when he bought it, and then it was his "learner" (which we know is hard on a kite), and now he still uses it as his one-kite quiver...here, Baja, everywhere...overpowered, underpowered...and still goin' strong...a 2009.  Helped him pack it up in Baja this year for the downwinders and had a good look.  It's lasted better than Rusty's old grey 2009 Edge that was far more tattered & limp & near end-of-life when he got rid of it.
             
            I had 2004 airblast w/ more struts than a pickett fence (including center strut), & ripstop canopy, & it's trailing edge deteriorated badly in just a few years.  2005 Airush Flow not much better.
             
            The fastest way to wearout a kite is NOT from normal use...it's from leaving it inflated on the beach exposed to high wind & UV...that's a pretty punishing stress test of kite durability.  When you leave a center strutter inflated on a windy beach, that center strut sticks up tall so the central canopy & trailing edge get wind-flogged. On the other hand, kites lacking a center strut lay far flatter pancaking nicely and much more parallel to wind, so canopy not wind-worked nearly so much.  Easy for anyone to see.  When I'm on a windy beach & deflating & rolling up & need a wind break, or just leaving the kite on beach to take a rest, I look for the biggest center strut kite I can find that's taking a beating...and I tuck in behind it. 
             
            But I guess if there were even a small difference in lifespan between center strut & strutless kites, one would also have to consider that center struttless kites can be as little as half the price of high-end fully strutted kites (that's a lotta green for just one strut!).  For what you spend on a high-end center strutted kite you can buy a center strutless, use it 'till threadbare, then replace it with the next generation design, and before that's worn out, the center strutted is tattered & retires...but you've moved forward a kite generation and investment-wise you're at a wash.
             
            Simplistic claims like this remind me of the days when Naish had #1 marketshare by far, and larded w/ hubris pronounced the newer "bow kites" inferior for all kinds of superficial reasons and stubbornly stayed w/ C-designs...which very quickly led to marketshare free-fall & losing #1 position, which they've never recovered. Then they scrambled from behind hyping the Sigma shape gimmick claiming it superior...which has since proven hooey since they don't make those any more: http://naishkites.com/kites/. So I wonder about reliability of these sorts of sweeping declarations, especially when they don't readily gibe w/ practical observation.
             
             
             
             


            On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 1:49 PM, Gear Daddy LLC <geardaddyllc@...> wrote:
             

            The park is a good kite.  It is close to the Catalyst in performance but not as quick or boosty. The Ride is their really nice kite but trailing edge flutters when depowered. Trailing edges will deteriorate without center strut.   Pretty colors abound. The Draft was the race kite and guys were going big air. But when the guys on edges showed up I have never seen so fast I have no idea how they hang on 40+mph on chop. I would like to have tested bigger kites for our home conditions, but winds were relentless. My 12 stayed in bag and never saw the beach. :-)

            Eddy


            On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:20 AM, Josh Woodland <woodland.josh@...> wrote:

             

            Lucky! How do you like the Naish kites?

            On Jun 9, 2013 8:11 AM, "Gear Daddy LLC" <geardaddyllc@...> wrote:
            Did I say north...everybody knows that means up wind!!! Dah!!! :-). We kited from the campground up past the windsurfers going way outside into the deep blue water.  Amazing colors when 2 miles out.  Then came back to the area by the expensive homes but not into airport traffic.  Probably out of bounds but its an ocean out there.  Are local friends said we were fine. 
            <image.jpeg>
            Eddy
            <image.jpeg>

            On Jun 8, 2013, at 8:02 PM, Will Hise <will.hise@...> wrote:

             

            North of kite beach is the Pacific Ocean. Do you mean east? Where you rocking at Lanes? Sick waves there. Don't be breaking the rules kiting in the airport airspace or them locals will come give you a what's up. 


            I love that you're at a naish event flying Ozone!



            On Saturday, June 8, 2013, Gear Daddy LLC wrote:


            So played on the Park 8m. Fun kite but same as last years...   The ride is a nice kite but the lack of middle strut means short life span.  Next yrs will have middle strut.  Bolt is no more old kite.  Strutless kites are another gimmick. 

            Ended up playing with 10m ozone catalyst and had a ball.  Played in the waves way north of kite beach no idea on local name.  Just Jeff and myself crushing a nice break,  For 3 hrs.  Will post pictures later.  

            Learned to surf caught a party wave with Jeff and John McCabe.  Great times!!!

            Looking forward to hanging with homies. Heading back tomorrow. 

            Aloha,
            Eddy


            On Jun 8, 2013, at 1:21 PM, steve linane <itile@...> wrote:

             

            Awesome time we put on quite the show. I'm off to Maui for the week going to Naish demo dealer meeting. Have a great week.  

            Eddy
             
            Eddy
            send some pictures , get one with you and Robby . What do you think of the Park or the Bolt .
            did you ride with Kevin Langeree,See if you can get the low down on the Zero strut kites from designer Damien Girardin and Florian Daubos
            Steve
            reply ASAP






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            • Jon Bolt
              Hi Will... what I said, exactly, is that kites lacking a center strut CAN BE as little as half the price of high end full strutters...wasn t a sweeping
              Message 5 of 16 , Jun 9, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Will... what I said, exactly, is that kites lacking a center strut CAN BE as little as half the price of high end full strutters...wasn't a sweeping declaration...didn't say they were all half the price, or that the comparison was vs. all center strutters....just the high end full strutters.  I totally agree, a 3 strutter certainly isn't a high end full strutter.  Heck, some of those are even less costly than the 4-strut centerless designs.  In general, all other things being equal, fewer struts means less expensive.  But I stand by the half-price statement, first hand experience.  Scott Cryder would stand by it, Mike Stone, by Baja buddy that bought RRD Visions (3 Strut),  et al....you can get darn good kites for half the price of some of the high end kites.  And while I don't see substantial difference in durability, if there is, well...you could indeed by two of some brands for the cost of a single kite from others.
                 
                And I agree that most every kite has it's strengths and its weaknesses...just sorta misleading to disparage an entire class of kites based on a single characteristic (shorter lifespan), when the facts of that assertion may not be so reliable, and similar information about the positive strengths & advantages goes unspoken...
                 
                 


                On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 6:18 PM, Will Hise <will.hise@...> wrote:
                 

                Eddy struck a nerve huh? 

                To be fair, your sweeping declaration that center strut kites are 2x as expensive as strutless kites is the same type of misleading declaration. Sure, you might find a strutless kite for half, but its not the same brand and you aren't comparing apples to apples. There are plenty of 3 strut cheap kites as well.

                My experience (until I moved to Idaho I flew everything I could get my hands on, had two shops that handed me gear to demo, but admittedly moslty larger size kites) with kites without a center strut has been that they have a slight increase in low end, are slightly lighter, and they deform and get nasty at the high end. That's why LF moved away from it as well as North. Its not a gimmick like sigma but that center strut really helps with canopy ridgity when under high stress.

                I'm not sticking up for Naish. They have always been the company I wanted to like (Robby is a god) but every model kite I've ever flow has left me wanting. I also just wanted to add my sweeping generalizations to the mix.

                Cheers! Its way too hot today.

                --Will

                All statements herein are my opinions, probably not backed up by much science or fact.

                On Jun 9, 2013 5:39 PM, "Jon Bolt" <idakiteman@...> wrote:


                "lack of middle strut means short life span"...
                 
                ??? propaganda from those who don't make kites w/o center struts?  new folklore?  Exactly why does lack of a center strut, by itself, shorten lifespan?...is it a measurable difference ???
                 
                Gavin's 2009 Kahoona was used when he bought it, and then it was his "learner" (which we know is hard on a kite), and now he still uses it as his one-kite quiver...here, Baja, everywhere...overpowered, underpowered...and still goin' strong...a 2009.  Helped him pack it up in Baja this year for the downwinders and had a good look.  It's lasted better than Rusty's old grey 2009 Edge that was far more tattered & limp & near end-of-life when he got rid of it.
                 
                I had 2004 airblast w/ more struts than a pickett fence (including center strut), & ripstop canopy, & it's trailing edge deteriorated badly in just a few years.  2005 Airush Flow not much better.
                 
                The fastest way to wearout a kite is NOT from normal use...it's from leaving it inflated on the beach exposed to high wind & UV...that's a pretty punishing stress test of kite durability.  When you leave a center strutter inflated on a windy beach, that center strut sticks up tall so the central canopy & trailing edge get wind-flogged. On the other hand, kites lacking a center strut lay far flatter pancaking nicely and much more parallel to wind, so canopy not wind-worked nearly so much.  Easy for anyone to see.  When I'm on a windy beach & deflating & rolling up & need a wind break, or just leaving the kite on beach to take a rest, I look for the biggest center strut kite I can find that's taking a beating...and I tuck in behind it. 
                 
                But I guess if there were even a small difference in lifespan between center strut & strutless kites, one would also have to consider that center struttless kites can be as little as half the price of high-end fully strutted kites (that's a lotta green for just one strut!).  For what you spend on a high-end center strutted kite you can buy a center strutless, use it 'till threadbare, then replace it with the next generation design, and before that's worn out, the center strutted is tattered & retires...but you've moved forward a kite generation and investment-wise you're at a wash.
                 
                Simplistic claims like this remind me of the days when Naish had #1 marketshare by far, and larded w/ hubris pronounced the newer "bow kites" inferior for all kinds of superficial reasons and stubbornly stayed w/ C-designs...which very quickly led to marketshare free-fall & losing #1 position, which they've never recovered. Then they scrambled from behind hyping the Sigma shape gimmick claiming it superior...which has since proven hooey since they don't make those any more: http://naishkites.com/kites/. So I wonder about reliability of these sorts of sweeping declarations, especially when they don't readily gibe w/ practical observation.
                 
                 
                 
                 


                On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 1:49 PM, Gear Daddy LLC <geardaddyllc@...> wrote:
                 

                The park is a good kite.  It is close to the Catalyst in performance but not as quick or boosty. The Ride is their really nice kite but trailing edge flutters when depowered. Trailing edges will deteriorate without center strut.   Pretty colors abound. The Draft was the race kite and guys were going big air. But when the guys on edges showed up I have never seen so fast I have no idea how they hang on 40+mph on chop. I would like to have tested bigger kites for our home conditions, but winds were relentless. My 12 stayed in bag and never saw the beach. :-)

                Eddy


                On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:20 AM, Josh Woodland <woodland.josh@...> wrote:

                 

                Lucky! How do you like the Naish kites?

                On Jun 9, 2013 8:11 AM, "Gear Daddy LLC" <geardaddyllc@...> wrote:
                Did I say north...everybody knows that means up wind!!! Dah!!! :-). We kited from the campground up past the windsurfers going way outside into the deep blue water.  Amazing colors when 2 miles out.  Then came back to the area by the expensive homes but not into airport traffic.  Probably out of bounds but its an ocean out there.  Are local friends said we were fine. 
                <image.jpeg>
                Eddy
                <image.jpeg>

                On Jun 8, 2013, at 8:02 PM, Will Hise <will.hise@...> wrote:

                 

                North of kite beach is the Pacific Ocean. Do you mean east? Where you rocking at Lanes? Sick waves there. Don't be breaking the rules kiting in the airport airspace or them locals will come give you a what's up. 


                I love that you're at a naish event flying Ozone!



                On Saturday, June 8, 2013, Gear Daddy LLC wrote:


                So played on the Park 8m. Fun kite but same as last years...   The ride is a nice kite but the lack of middle strut means short life span.  Next yrs will have middle strut.  Bolt is no more old kite.  Strutless kites are another gimmick. 

                Ended up playing with 10m ozone catalyst and had a ball.  Played in the waves way north of kite beach no idea on local name.  Just Jeff and myself crushing a nice break,  For 3 hrs.  Will post pictures later.  

                Learned to surf caught a party wave with Jeff and John McCabe.  Great times!!!

                Looking forward to hanging with homies. Heading back tomorrow. 

                Aloha,
                Eddy


                On Jun 8, 2013, at 1:21 PM, steve linane <itile@...> wrote:

                 

                Awesome time we put on quite the show. I'm off to Maui for the week going to Naish demo dealer meeting. Have a great week.  

                Eddy
                 
                Eddy
                send some pictures , get one with you and Robby . What do you think of the Park or the Bolt .
                did you ride with Kevin Langeree,See if you can get the low down on the Zero strut kites from designer Damien Girardin and Florian Daubos
                Steve
                reply ASAP







              • Greg
                Nice pics. Looks like you were at Ka a point beach and went up to sprecklesville. That s where I usually launch from. Sent from my iPhone
                Message 6 of 16 , Jun 9, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  Nice pics. Looks like you were at Ka'a point beach and went up to sprecklesville. That's where I usually launch from. 

                  Sent from my iPhone

                  On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:10 AM, Gear Daddy LLC <geardaddyllc@...> wrote:

                  Did I say north...everybody knows that means up wind!!! Dah!!! :-). We kited from the campground up past the windsurfers going way outside into the deep blue water.  Amazing colors when 2 miles out.  Then came back to the area by the expensive homes but not into airport traffic.  Probably out of bounds but its an ocean out there.  Are local friends said we were fine. 
                  <image.jpeg>
                  Eddy
                  <image.jpeg>

                  On Jun 8, 2013, at 8:02 PM, Will Hise <will.hise@...> wrote:

                   

                  North of kite beach is the Pacific Ocean. Do you mean east? Where you rocking at Lanes? Sick waves there. Don't be breaking the rules kiting in the airport airspace or them locals will come give you a what's up. 


                  I love that you're at a naish event flying Ozone!



                  On Saturday, June 8, 2013, Gear Daddy LLC wrote:


                  So played on the Park 8m. Fun kite but same as last years...   The ride is a nice kite but the lack of middle strut means short life span.  Next yrs will have middle strut.  Bolt is no more old kite.  Strutless kites are another gimmick. 

                  Ended up playing with 10m ozone catalyst and had a ball.  Played in the waves way north of kite beach no idea on local name.  Just Jeff and myself crushing a nice break,  For 3 hrs.  Will post pictures later.  

                  Learned to surf caught a party wave with Jeff and John McCabe.  Great times!!!

                  Looking forward to hanging with homies. Heading back tomorrow. 

                  Aloha,
                  Eddy


                  On Jun 8, 2013, at 1:21 PM, steve linane <itile@...> wrote:

                   

                  Awesome time we put on quite the show. I'm off to Maui for the week going to Naish demo dealer meeting. Have a great week.  

                  Eddy
                   
                  Eddy
                  send some pictures , get one with you and Robby . What do you think of the Park or the Bolt .
                  did you ride with Kevin Langeree,See if you can get the low down on the Zero strut kites from designer Damien Girardin and Florian Daubos
                  Steve
                  reply ASAP



                • Gear Daddy LLC
                  Well, the Naish Ride is a 2 strut kite. When you depower it the trailing edge flutters like a flag. Brand new kites first hand experience. Look at any flags
                  Message 7 of 16 , Jun 9, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Well, the Naish Ride is a 2 strut kite.  When you depower it the trailing edge flutters like a flag.  Brand new kites first hand experience.  Look at any flags trailing edge over time and...Well you should get the drift.  Just like the strutless kites they are not great designs and recognized so by those respected in the design side of the industry.  There's about $75-100 less in price when compared to comp 3/4 strut. Wait until end of year blowouts on this style of kite and you can get them half price. The Ride would have been a great kite had it a center strut which it will likely have next yr.  I would not recommend this kite knowing how it preformed.  Get the Park if you want a Naish.  You can Support Robby's interests:-0
                    image.jpeg

                    Ride what you like!!! Did not mean to ruffle feathers!!! Just my opinion ;-)

                    Eddy


                    On Jun 9, 2013, at 6:43 PM, Tonyswilliams <tonyswilliams@...> wrote:

                     

                    I have to say that I have had and still have kites that do not have a center strut the monkey brand kite never used center strut and it was never the trailing edge that failed. They were almost all c kites and lacked the wind range of today's kites. But my 2004 monkey was a super kite when in the right wind range and the material never failed even when I used it a couple of times in 2010. The material is still pretty good shape but I am no longer a fan of a kite that pulls with little depower and gets jerky in gusts

                    Sent from my iPhone

                    On Jun 9, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Will Hise <will.hise@...> wrote:

                     

                    Eddy struck a nerve huh? 

                    To be fair, your sweeping declaration that center strut kites are 2x as expensive as strutless kites is the same type of misleading declaration. Sure, you might find a strutless kite for half, but its not the same brand and you aren't comparing apples to apples. There are plenty of 3 strut cheap kites as well.

                    My experience (until I moved to Idaho I flew everything I could get my hands on, had two shops that handed me gear to demo, but admittedly moslty larger size kites) with kites without a center strut has been that they have a slight increase in low end, are slightly lighter, and they deform and get nasty at the high end. That's why LF moved away from it as well as North. Its not a gimmick like sigma but that center strut really helps with canopy ridgity when under high stress.

                    I'm not sticking up for Naish. They have always been the company I wanted to like (Robby is a god) but every model kite I've ever flow has left me wanting. I also just wanted to add my sweeping generalizations to the mix.

                    Cheers! Its way too hot today.

                    --Will

                    All statements herein are my opinions, probably not backed up by much science or fact.

                    On Jun 9, 2013 5:39 PM, "Jon Bolt" <idakiteman@...> wrote:


                    "lack of middle strut means short life span"...
                     
                    ??? propaganda from those who don't make kites w/o center struts?  new folklore?  Exactly why does lack of a center strut, by itself, shorten lifespan?...is it a measurable difference ???
                     
                    Gavin's 2009 Kahoona was used when he bought it, and then it was his "learner" (which we know is hard on a kite), and now he still uses it as his one-kite quiver...here, Baja, everywhere...overpowered, underpowered...and still goin' strong...a 2009.  Helped him pack it up in Baja this year for the downwinders and had a good look.  It's lasted better than Rusty's old grey 2009 Edge that was far more tattered & limp & near end-of-life when he got rid of it.
                     
                    I had 2004 airblast w/ more struts than a pickett fence (including center strut), & ripstop canopy, & it's trailing edge deteriorated badly in just a few years.  2005 Airush Flow not much better.
                     
                    The fastest way to wearout a kite is NOT from normal use...it's from leaving it inflated on the beach exposed to high wind & UV...that's a pretty punishing stress test of kite durability.  When you leave a center strutter inflated on a windy beach, that center strut sticks up tall so the central canopy & trailing edge get wind-flogged. On the other hand, kites lacking a center strut lay far flatter pancaking nicely and much more parallel to wind, so canopy not wind-worked nearly so much.  Easy for anyone to see.  When I'm on a windy beach & deflating & rolling up & need a wind break, or just leaving the kite on beach to take a rest, I look for the biggest center strut kite I can find that's taking a beating...and I tuck in behind it. 
                     
                    But I guess if there were even a small difference in lifespan between center strut & strutless kites, one would also have to consider that center struttless kites can be as little as half the price of high-end fully strutted kites (that's a lotta green for just one strut!).  For what you spend on a high-end center strutted kite you can buy a center strutless, use it 'till threadbare, then replace it with the next generation design, and before that's worn out, the center strutted is tattered & retires...but you've moved forward a kite generation and investment-wise you're at a wash.
                     
                    Simplistic claims like this remind me of the days when Naish had #1 marketshare by far, and larded w/ hubris pronounced the newer "bow kites" inferior for all kinds of superficial reasons and stubbornly stayed w/ C-designs...which very quickly led to marketshare free-fall & losing #1 position, which they've never recovered. Then they scrambled from behind hyping the Sigma shape gimmick claiming it superior...which has since proven hooey since they don't make those any more: http://naishkites.com/kites/. So I wonder about reliability of these sorts of sweeping declarations, especially when they don't readily gibe w/ practical observation.
                     
                     
                     
                     


                    On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 1:49 PM, Gear Daddy LLC <geardaddyllc@...> wrote:
                     

                    The park is a good kite.  It is close to the Catalyst in performance but not as quick or boosty. The Ride is their really nice kite but trailing edge flutters when depowered. Trailing edges will deteriorate without center strut.   Pretty colors abound. The Draft was the race kite and guys were going big air. But when the guys on edges showed up I have never seen so fast I have no idea how they hang on 40+mph on chop. I would like to have tested bigger kites for our home conditions, but winds were relentless. My 12 stayed in bag and never saw the beach. :-)

                    Eddy


                    On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:20 AM, Josh Woodland <woodland.josh@...> wrote:

                     

                    Lucky! How do you like the Naish kites?

                    On Jun 9, 2013 8:11 AM, "Gear Daddy LLC" <geardaddyllc@...> wrote:
                    Did I say north...everybody knows that means up wind!!! Dah!!! :-). We kited from the campground up past the windsurfers going way outside into the deep blue water.  Amazing colors when 2 miles out.  Then came back to the area by the expensive homes but not into airport traffic.  Probably out of bounds but its an ocean out there.  Are local friends said we were fine. 
                    <image.jpeg>
                    Eddy
                    <image.jpeg>

                    On Jun 8, 2013, at 8:02 PM, Will Hise <will.hise@...> wrote:

                     

                    North of kite beach is the Pacific Ocean. Do you mean east? Where you rocking at Lanes? Sick waves there. Don't be breaking the rules kiting in the airport airspace or them locals will come give you a what's up. 


                    I love that you're at a naish event flying Ozone!



                    On Saturday, June 8, 2013, Gear Daddy LLC wrote:


                    So played on the Park 8m. Fun kite but same as last years...   The ride is a nice kite but the lack of middle strut means short life span.  Next yrs will have middle strut.  Bolt is no more old kite.  Strutless kites are another gimmick. 

                    Ended up playing with 10m ozone catalyst and had a ball.  Played in the waves way north of kite beach no idea on local name.  Just Jeff and myself crushing a nice break,  For 3 hrs.  Will post pictures later.  

                    Learned to surf caught a party wave with Jeff and John McCabe.  Great times!!!

                    Looking forward to hanging with homies. Heading back tomorrow. 

                    Aloha,
                    Eddy


                    On Jun 8, 2013, at 1:21 PM, steve linane <itile@...> wrote:

                     

                    Awesome time we put on quite the show. I'm off to Maui for the week going to Naish demo dealer meeting. Have a great week.  

                    Eddy
                     
                    Eddy
                    send some pictures , get one with you and Robby . What do you think of the Park or the Bolt .
                    did you ride with Kevin Langeree,See if you can get the low down on the Zero strut kites from designer Damien Girardin and Florian Daubos
                    Steve
                    reply ASAP






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                    • Jim shultz
                      Laugh Out Loud! Don t have much to add to the opinion mix, I like to use kites as a method to pull me across the water and snow. My first kite was a Flexifoil
                      Message 8 of 16 , Jun 9, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Laugh Out Loud!

                        Don't have much to add to the opinion mix, I like to use kites as a method to pull me across the water and snow. My first kite was a Flexifoil and now I have a whole quiver of them. I like them!

                        Love the disclaimer Will!

                        Jim
                      • Jon Bolt
                        ...can t survive those brutal Maui roads w/o a rental car crusher like that!!. ... ...can t survive those brutal Maui roads w/o a rental car crusher like
                        Message 9 of 16 , Jun 10, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment
                          ...can't survive those brutal Maui roads w/o a rental car crusher like that!!.


                          On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 9:21 PM, Gear Daddy LLC <geardaddyllc@...> wrote:
                          Well, the Naish Ride is a 2 strut kite.  When you depower it the trailing edge flutters like a flag.  Brand new kites first hand experience.  Look at any flags trailing edge over time and...Well you should get the drift.  Just like the strutless kites they are not great designs and recognized so by those respected in the design side of the industry.  There's about $75-100 less in price when compared to comp 3/4 strut. Wait until end of year blowouts on this style of kite and you can get them half price. The Ride would have been a great kite had it a center strut which it will likely have next yr.  I would not recommend this kite knowing how it preformed.  Get the Park if you want a Naish.  You can Support Robby's interests:-0
                          image.jpeg

                          Ride what you like!!! Did not mean to ruffle feathers!!! Just my opinion ;-)

                          Eddy


                          On Jun 9, 2013, at 6:43 PM, Tonyswilliams <tonyswilliams@...> wrote:

                           

                          I have to say that I have had and still have kites that do not have a center strut the monkey brand kite never used center strut and it was never the trailing edge that failed. They were almost all c kites and lacked the wind range of today's kites. But my 2004 monkey was a super kite when in the right wind range and the material never failed even when I used it a couple of times in 2010. The material is still pretty good shape but I am no longer a fan of a kite that pulls with little depower and gets jerky in gusts

                          Sent from my iPhone

                          On Jun 9, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Will Hise <will.hise@...> wrote:

                           

                          Eddy struck a nerve huh? 

                          To be fair, your sweeping declaration that center strut kites are 2x as expensive as strutless kites is the same type of misleading declaration. Sure, you might find a strutless kite for half, but its not the same brand and you aren't comparing apples to apples. There are plenty of 3 strut cheap kites as well.

                          My experience (until I moved to Idaho I flew everything I could get my hands on, had two shops that handed me gear to demo, but admittedly moslty larger size kites) with kites without a center strut has been that they have a slight increase in low end, are slightly lighter, and they deform and get nasty at the high end. That's why LF moved away from it as well as North. Its not a gimmick like sigma but that center strut really helps with canopy ridgity when under high stress.

                          I'm not sticking up for Naish. They have always been the company I wanted to like (Robby is a god) but every model kite I've ever flow has left me wanting. I also just wanted to add my sweeping generalizations to the mix.

                          Cheers! Its way too hot today.

                          --Will

                          All statements herein are my opinions, probably not backed up by much science or fact.

                          On Jun 9, 2013 5:39 PM, "Jon Bolt" <idakiteman@...> wrote:


                          "lack of middle strut means short life span"...
                           
                          ??? propaganda from those who don't make kites w/o center struts?  new folklore?  Exactly why does lack of a center strut, by itself, shorten lifespan?...is it a measurable difference ???
                           
                          Gavin's 2009 Kahoona was used when he bought it, and then it was his "learner" (which we know is hard on a kite), and now he still uses it as his one-kite quiver...here, Baja, everywhere...overpowered, underpowered...and still goin' strong...a 2009.  Helped him pack it up in Baja this year for the downwinders and had a good look.  It's lasted better than Rusty's old grey 2009 Edge that was far more tattered & limp & near end-of-life when he got rid of it.
                           
                          I had 2004 airblast w/ more struts than a pickett fence (including center strut), & ripstop canopy, & it's trailing edge deteriorated badly in just a few years.  2005 Airush Flow not much better.
                           
                          The fastest way to wearout a kite is NOT from normal use...it's from leaving it inflated on the beach exposed to high wind & UV...that's a pretty punishing stress test of kite durability.  When you leave a center strutter inflated on a windy beach, that center strut sticks up tall so the central canopy & trailing edge get wind-flogged. On the other hand, kites lacking a center strut lay far flatter pancaking nicely and much more parallel to wind, so canopy not wind-worked nearly so much.  Easy for anyone to see.  When I'm on a windy beach & deflating & rolling up & need a wind break, or just leaving the kite on beach to take a rest, I look for the biggest center strut kite I can find that's taking a beating...and I tuck in behind it. 
                           
                          But I guess if there were even a small difference in lifespan between center strut & strutless kites, one would also have to consider that center struttless kites can be as little as half the price of high-end fully strutted kites (that's a lotta green for just one strut!).  For what you spend on a high-end center strutted kite you can buy a center strutless, use it 'till threadbare, then replace it with the next generation design, and before that's worn out, the center strutted is tattered & retires...but you've moved forward a kite generation and investment-wise you're at a wash.
                           
                          Simplistic claims like this remind me of the days when Naish had #1 marketshare by far, and larded w/ hubris pronounced the newer "bow kites" inferior for all kinds of superficial reasons and stubbornly stayed w/ C-designs...which very quickly led to marketshare free-fall & losing #1 position, which they've never recovered. Then they scrambled from behind hyping the Sigma shape gimmick claiming it superior...which has since proven hooey since they don't make those any more: http://naishkites.com/kites/. So I wonder about reliability of these sorts of sweeping declarations, especially when they don't readily gibe w/ practical observation.
                           
                           
                           
                           


                          On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 1:49 PM, Gear Daddy LLC <geardaddyllc@...> wrote:
                           

                          The park is a good kite.  It is close to the Catalyst in performance but not as quick or boosty. The Ride is their really nice kite but trailing edge flutters when depowered. Trailing edges will deteriorate without center strut.   Pretty colors abound. The Draft was the race kite and guys were going big air. But when the guys on edges showed up I have never seen so fast I have no idea how they hang on 40+mph on chop. I would like to have tested bigger kites for our home conditions, but winds were relentless. My 12 stayed in bag and never saw the beach. :-)

                          Eddy


                          On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:20 AM, Josh Woodland <woodland.josh@...> wrote:

                           

                          Lucky! How do you like the Naish kites?

                          On Jun 9, 2013 8:11 AM, "Gear Daddy LLC" <geardaddyllc@...> wrote:
                          Did I say north...everybody knows that means up wind!!! Dah!!! :-). We kited from the campground up past the windsurfers going way outside into the deep blue water.  Amazing colors when 2 miles out.  Then came back to the area by the expensive homes but not into airport traffic.  Probably out of bounds but its an ocean out there.  Are local friends said we were fine. 
                          <image.jpeg>
                          Eddy
                          <image.jpeg>

                          On Jun 8, 2013, at 8:02 PM, Will Hise <will.hise@...> wrote:

                           

                          North of kite beach is the Pacific Ocean. Do you mean east? Where you rocking at Lanes? Sick waves there. Don't be breaking the rules kiting in the airport airspace or them locals will come give you a what's up. 


                          I love that you're at a naish event flying Ozone!



                          On Saturday, June 8, 2013, Gear Daddy LLC wrote:


                          So played on the Park 8m. Fun kite but same as last years...   The ride is a nice kite but the lack of middle strut means short life span.  Next yrs will have middle strut.  Bolt is no more old kite.  Strutless kites are another gimmick. 

                          Ended up playing with 10m ozone catalyst and had a ball.  Played in the waves way north of kite beach no idea on local name.  Just Jeff and myself crushing a nice break,  For 3 hrs.  Will post pictures later.  

                          Learned to surf caught a party wave with Jeff and John McCabe.  Great times!!!

                          Looking forward to hanging with homies. Heading back tomorrow. 

                          Aloha,
                          Eddy


                          On Jun 8, 2013, at 1:21 PM, steve linane <itile@...> wrote:

                           

                          Awesome time we put on quite the show. I'm off to Maui for the week going to Naish demo dealer meeting. Have a great week.  

                          Eddy
                           
                          Eddy
                          send some pictures , get one with you and Robby . What do you think of the Park or the Bolt .
                          did you ride with Kevin Langeree,See if you can get the low down on the Zero strut kites from designer Damien Girardin and Florian Daubos
                          Steve
                          reply ASAP






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