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Re: [smygo] Ilan tries to sabotage ANOTHER list!

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  • Ilan Shalif
    Hi Aaron and others ... I can speak only for myself and others who hold the same opinion as me. The boycoting as much as possible the authoritarians of the
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 7, 2005
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      Hi Aaron and others

      Aaron wrote:
      > Can either Ilan or Jacques tell us whether not cooperating with "Statists" means that you don't cooperate with bourgeois liberals, reformists, etc.? Do you only cooperate with other anarchists -- presumably only with those anarchists who also only cooperate with other anarchists? Or are the only "Statists" you don't cooperate with "the same old workerist, class-obsessed" Marxists?
      >
      > - Aaron
      >
      I can speak only for myself and others who hold the same
      opinion as me.

      The boycoting as much as possible
      the authoritarians of the left - Stalinists, Trotskists,
      Leninists, Maoists and their like, have two reasons.

      The strategic one is that by doing it in public, it is
      the best means to discern between our revolution and
      their red fascist revolution.

      In addition, it helps to promote our non-vanguardist-elitist
      mode of activity with the wage slaves.

      On tactical reasons, the authoritarians of the left just
      use the various fronts and initiatives they organize
      to promote their cults - and not for the claimed reason.

      Personally, I regard the caders of these groups as of the mentality
      of fascists - even when it has a red flavor.
      >
      Ilan

      >To: smygo@yahoogroups.com
      >>From: Jacques Bayley <revolutionaire83@...>
      >>X-Yahoo-Profile: revolutionaire83
      >>Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 20:57:36 -0800 (PST)
      >>Subject: Re: [smygo] Ilan tries to sabotage ANOTHER list!
      >>
      >>Hello Illan,
      >>
      >>Yes, I frequent the ainfos website...It's refreshing, but I'm always skeptical of 'revolutionary' Anarchist(s) who seem to be spouting the same old workerist, class-obsessed dogma. It's still one of my favorite anarchist sites. I am from Seattle. I am always glad to talk someone who won't run with these 'organizationalists' who think cooperating with Statists and bureaucratic 'communists' will help us achieve our aims. Do you live in Israel? Do you work with any collectives or federations I might have heard of aside from ainfos? I usually have trouble finding points of unity with anyone...but it looks like we have something in common.
      >>
      >>Take care,
      >>
      >>-JPB
      >
      >
      >
    • Jacques Bayley
      I, like Ilan, can only speak for myself and those who agree with me completely. I believe it is an essential anarchist tendency to avoid all forms of heirarchy
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 8, 2005
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        I, like Ilan, can only speak for myself and those who
        agree with me completely.

        I believe it is an essential anarchist tendency to
        avoid all forms of heirarchy and command structure in
        organization; I think most anarchists agree that the
        proletarian revolutions of the past have been
        corrupted by the presence of such structures, as is
        visible in the oppressive decline of every failed
        attempt at establishing an egalitarian workers' state.
        This goes for all reformists, 'bourgeois liberals,'
        social democrats, etc. as well. The CNT/FAI failed in
        Spain because it attempted to function as a
        parlaimentary party i nthe traditional sense, rather
        than as a decentralized, egalitarian movement based on
        free association.
        Heirarchical organization produces leadership, and
        leadership produces leaders...and last time I checked,
        there was no place for leaders, chairmen, gods or
        masters in the anarchist milieu...

        but anarchism also holds no place for dogma or
        absolutism...so associate with whomever you wish,
        niether I or Ilan or anyone else have the right to
        tell you otherwise.
        -J@cques
        --- Ilan Shalif <gshalif@...> wrote:

        > Hi Aaron and others
        >
        > Aaron wrote:
        > > Can either Ilan or Jacques tell us whether not
        > cooperating with "Statists" means that you don't
        > cooperate with bourgeois liberals, reformists, etc.?
        > Do you only cooperate with other anarchists --
        > presumably only with those anarchists who also only
        > cooperate with other anarchists? Or are the only
        > "Statists" you don't cooperate with "the same old
        > workerist, class-obsessed" Marxists?
        > >
        > > - Aaron
        > >
        > I can speak only for myself and others who hold the
        > same
        > opinion as me.
        >
        > The boycoting as much as possible
        > the authoritarians of the left - Stalinists,
        > Trotskists,
        > Leninists, Maoists and their like, have two reasons.
        >
        > The strategic one is that by doing it in public, it
        > is
        > the best means to discern between our revolution and
        > their red fascist revolution.
        >
        > In addition, it helps to promote our
        > non-vanguardist-elitist
        > mode of activity with the wage slaves.
        >
        > On tactical reasons, the authoritarians of the left
        > just
        > use the various fronts and initiatives they organize
        > to promote their cults - and not for the claimed
        > reason.
        >
        > Personally, I regard the caders of these groups as
        > of the mentality
        > of fascists - even when it has a red flavor.
        > >
        > Ilan
        >
        > >To: smygo@yahoogroups.com
        > >>From: Jacques Bayley <revolutionaire83@...>
        > >>X-Yahoo-Profile: revolutionaire83
        > >>Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 20:57:36 -0800 (PST)
        > >>Subject: Re: [smygo] Ilan tries to sabotage
        > ANOTHER list!
        > >>
        > >>Hello Illan,
        > >>
        > >>Yes, I frequent the ainfos website...It's
        > refreshing, but I'm always skeptical of
        > 'revolutionary' Anarchist(s) who seem to be spouting
        > the same old workerist, class-obsessed dogma. It's
        > still one of my favorite anarchist sites. I am from
        > Seattle. I am always glad to talk someone who won't
        > run with these 'organizationalists' who think
        > cooperating with Statists and bureaucratic
        > 'communists' will help us achieve our aims. Do you
        > live in Israel? Do you work with any collectives or
        > federations I might have heard of aside from ainfos?
        > I usually have trouble finding points of unity with
        > anyone...but it looks like we have something in
        > common.
        > >>
        > >>Take care,
        > >>
        > >>-JPB
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >




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      • D. de Gruijter
        Dear Jacques, The way I see it, most proletarian revolutions have failed not because of an inner structure that necessarily leads to its destruction, but
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 9, 2005
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          Dear Jacques,

          The way I see it, most proletarian revolutions have failed not because of an
          inner structure that necessarily leads to its destruction, but because of
          anti-democratic counterforces in the form of Bolshewism and Stalinism. The
          same can be seen in the anarchist revolution of Spain in the thirties, what
          started off as democratic mass movement was destroyed by communists
          following the particular Stalinist line, to prevent or suppress
          revolutionary tendencies outside of Russia. As a socialist who has gradually
          turned to anarchism I agree with distrust of hierarchy but not of command
          structures. The way I see it, the command structures reaches from 'below' to
          'above', i.e., a democratic movement appointing and controlling
          representation, the exact inverse of 'representation' appointing and
          controlling the democratic movement(s).

          Yours,
          Dennis



          >
          >
          > I, like Ilan, can only speak for myself and those who
          > agree with me completely.
          >
          > I believe it is an essential anarchist tendency to
          > avoid all forms of heirarchy and command structure in
          > organization; I think most anarchists agree that the
          > proletarian revolutions of the past have been
          > corrupted by the presence of such structures, as is
          > visible in the oppressive decline of every failed
          > attempt at establishing an egalitarian workers' state.
          > This goes for all reformists, 'bourgeois liberals,'
          > social democrats, etc. as well. The CNT/FAI failed in
          > Spain because it attempted to function as a
          > parlaimentary party i nthe traditional sense, rather
          > than as a decentralized, egalitarian movement based on
          > free association.
          > Heirarchical organization produces leadership, and
          > leadership produces leaders...and last time I checked,
          > there was no place for leaders, chairmen, gods or
          > masters in the anarchist milieu...
          >
          > but anarchism also holds no place for dogma or
          > absolutism...so associate with whomever you wish,
          > niether I or Ilan or anyone else have the right to
          > tell you otherwise.
          > -J@cques
          > --- Ilan Shalif <gshalif@...> wrote:
          >
          > > Hi Aaron and others
          > >
          > > Aaron wrote:
          > > > Can either Ilan or Jacques tell us whether not
          > > cooperating with "Statists" means that you don't
          > > cooperate with bourgeois liberals, reformists, etc.?
          > > Do you only cooperate with other anarchists --
          > > presumably only with those anarchists who also only
          > > cooperate with other anarchists? Or are the only
          > > "Statists" you don't cooperate with "the same old
          > > workerist, class-obsessed" Marxists?
          > > >
          > > > - Aaron
          > > >
          > > I can speak only for myself and others who hold the
          > > same
          > > opinion as me.
          > >
          > > The boycoting as much as possible
          > > the authoritarians of the left - Stalinists,
          > > Trotskists,
          > > Leninists, Maoists and their like, have two reasons.
          > >
          > > The strategic one is that by doing it in public, it
          > > is
          > > the best means to discern between our revolution and
          > > their red fascist revolution.
          > >
          > > In addition, it helps to promote our
          > > non-vanguardist-elitist
          > > mode of activity with the wage slaves.
          > >
          > > On tactical reasons, the authoritarians of the left
          > > just
          > > use the various fronts and initiatives they organize
          > > to promote their cults - and not for the claimed
          > > reason.
          > >
          > > Personally, I regard the caders of these groups as
          > > of the mentality
          > > of fascists - even when it has a red flavor.
          > > >
          > > Ilan
          > >
          > > >To: smygo@yahoogroups.com
          > > >>From: Jacques Bayley <revolutionaire83@...>
          > > >>X-Yahoo-Profile: revolutionaire83
          > > >>Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 20:57:36 -0800 (PST)
          > > >>Subject: Re: [smygo] Ilan tries to sabotage
          > > ANOTHER list!
          > > >>
          > > >>Hello Illan,
          > > >>
          > > >>Yes, I frequent the ainfos website...It's
          > > refreshing, but I'm always skeptical of
          > > 'revolutionary' Anarchist(s) who seem to be spouting
          > > the same old workerist, class-obsessed dogma. It's
          > > still one of my favorite anarchist sites. I am from
          > > Seattle. I am always glad to talk someone who won't
          > > run with these 'organizationalists' who think
          > > cooperating with Statists and bureaucratic
          > > 'communists' will help us achieve our aims. Do you
          > > live in Israel? Do you work with any collectives or
          > > federations I might have heard of aside from ainfos?
          > > I usually have trouble finding points of unity with
          > > anyone...but it looks like we have something in
          > > common.
          > > >>
          > > >>Take care,
          > > >>
          > > >>-JPB
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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