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Re: [shs-talk] Re: Low cost, flexible Tiny Housing.

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  • jerry freedomev
                                            Hi Laren and All,  
    Message 1 of 45 , May 15, 2013
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                                            Hi Laren and All,
       
                                                   Some good thought Laren.    I'd also like to see more, better and most of all lighter, cheaper construction technics.  Imean it costs a lot to do a wall with thick wood inside, 2x4studs, vapor barrier outside ply with a covering of wood, etc on it is not cheap, light, eff and wastes space.
       
                                                   What is needed are more designs making SIP's from metal, thin ply, FG or even melted soda bottles into sheets.  I now buy commercial building metal before it's bent for less than the cost of ply and glued to foam with a 1/8-1/4'' ply glued on the inside would be stronger, lighter by 60-80%, cheaper, better insulating  especially for mobile TH's.
       
                                                  I build in stressed skin in various materials though mostly epoxy/ply that I build boats and even EV's. They are even lighter, stronger and much cheaper but lack insulation though it can easily be added either inside or out. My 34'x22'  trimaran with a 6'x21' cabin is built stressed skin epoxy/ply and only costs in materials $1k and weighs, at least before everything gets put on the structure, 1,000lbs.  The center.cabin hull is only 500lbs that with an axle under and a hitch on the bow can be a nice, light, aero TH trailer.
       
                                                  Another would be lay up big sheets of FG and bend them into gentle curves.  Let's all think outside the box some as that box is getting rather old now. 
       
                                                  Anyone have a good wall/contruction method to share other than these? 
       
                                                   I'll be building a different TH home soon putting a lot of this with great aero as I think there is a need for something like that one can pull with a 4cylinder car/truck.
       
                                                                                         Jerry Dycus
       
                                                                                  

      From: LarenCorie <larencorie@...>
      To: smallhousesocietyonline@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, May 3, 2013 9:02 AM
      Subject: [shs-talk] Re: Low cost, flexible Tiny Housing.

      Posted by: "jerry freedomev" freedomev@...

      > Let's have some more choices other than the 'cute' cottage

      > There are so many other choices for TH's.

      >  Posted by: "MotherLodeBeth" MotherLodeBeth@...

      > Am so happy to see someone else who isn't drawn to cute.
      >  I love with a passion modern, energy efficient, off
      the grid style.

      Hi Jerry and Beth,

        I want to join you in encouraging imagination and diversity
      in small houses.  We have been in a time of very conservative
      traditional design, for all sizes of houses. Today, even what is
      referred to as "contemporary" is not really. It is usually just a
      more plainly adorned version of a traditional triangle on top a
      box. Small living spaces present greater demands, in order to
      maximize interior function, especially in ways that go beyond
      basic utility, such at the psychological aspect of spatial per-
      -ception, and making tiny spaces not feel confining, yet not
      feeling too exposed, either. A lot of these things get amplified
      as the living space is reduced in size, much the same way that
      most things become more imposing, the closer they are to us.
      A big window does not feel too exposing, too cold, too hot,
      when it is at a fair distance, but it does when real close to it.
      By being able to work outside of the traditional "triangle on
      a box" limitations, literally more space is available, as well as
      there being opportunities to make different, potentially better,
      choices within the space, and also to extend the living space
      (or at least the feel of it) outside of the confines of just the
      little house, to outdoor spaces. These are all potential design
      issues, for improving the function of the dwelling.  They can
      be accomplished with a traditional flair too, but the current
      traditional design trend has not been limited to just the
      "triangle on a box shape." It has also dictated windows,
      doors, and siding materials..

      Here is a link that was posted to my LittleHouse
      group, yesterday...

      < http://grist.org/slideshow/mini-mansions-are-all-the-rage/>
      (pretty imaginative/entertaining, in a little houses kind of way ;O)

      I traveled and lived in my GMC Safari van for about two years,
      including two northern Winters. That is a space that is less than
      8ft x 5ft x 3'3". I had 6 guitar sized musical instruments, and a
      PA system, as well as plenty of clothing, tools, computer, deep
      cycle battery, and heat storage system so the engine heat, from
      driving, would keep the van warm at night, even in sub-zero
      temperatures. My dog traveled with me. There are a lot more
      people living in RVs and travel trailers, than those who are
      building houses on trailers, to look like cottages. There is
      nothing new or revolutionary about a living space on a trailer.
      However, building one does open the opportunity to do things
      that actually are new and revolutionary, rather than just making
      them look like cottages.

      -Laren Corie-
      Natural Solar Building Design and
      Solar Heating/Natural Cooling/Energy
      Efficiency Consultation Since 1975
      www.ThermalAttic.com  (many new
      photos and pages, coming soon)

      Read my Solar house design articles in:
      -Energy Self-Sufficiency Newsletter-
      www.essnmag.com

      Home base-LittleHouses YahooGroup
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleHouses/

      Founder-WoodGas - Power from wood
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WoodGas

      Founder-RefrigeratorAlternatives YahooGroup
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RefrigeratorAlternatives


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    • jerry freedomev
                                        Hi Laren and All,  
      Message 45 of 45 , May 23, 2013
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                                        Hi Laren and All,
         
                                                I was checking out prices yesterday and finding the same thing that spray in foam is too costly it seems.  Thanks for the numbers.  Still a good idea, just costs need to drop.
         
                                                 In the boating industry we use special, mostly PVC foam core to avoid delamination as other foams break at the junction when under stress.  Road loads/vibrations can be hard if the unit isn't fairly stiff and many RV's can be called anything but stiff.
         
                                                  So it's back to gluing SIPs.
         
                                                  There is not a chance of me ever using OSB as overweight and swells when wet, at least those sold here in Fla. I'd far rather use CDX instead.  Nor do I use wood I have to cover with another layer for looks as just silly waste and extra weight, costs.
         
                                                 I meant the  3/4'' ply as a form, not as part of a wall and see little reason to use over 3/8'' on any wall.  My 34' trimaran hull is only 1/2''  and 3/8'' sides, deck and it stands the seas in hurricane speed storms without a problem.  My next TH will have a 5mm thick wall though insulation, facing could be put on the inside or outside if needed.  
         
                                               A likely SIP for me is 1/8''-1/4'' ply on the inside or outside or commercial building metal for the outside before it gets it's ridges.  Or of rich alum is always good.  Facts are ply has about jumped the shark. on price here in Fla with it going up 300+% in the last 7 yrs with 50% of the demand.  What's up with that?  Metal building siding is cheaper/sq'  that 1/4''BC pine!!
         
                                                On the tapes, many that the tape part is only for laying down the adhesive and the plastic gets pulled off before gluing metal, wood, composites, etc.   As for long life  most cars, boats and planes have been held together for many decades including the  Grumman Tiger that have been flying since the early 60's who's wings, body are glued together.  Now whole airplanes are glue.  So kinda a hard to say they don't work well. 
         
                                           You might want to check and see what is available before saying tapes are not good enough.  3M among other sources.  I like 3M because their products work and while not cheap, are reasonable.
         
                                               Jerry Dycus
         
        From: LarenCorie <larencorie@...>
        To: smallhousesocietyonline@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 5:41 PM
        Subject: [shs-talk] Re: Low cost, flexible Tiny Housing.

        Posted by: "jerry freedomev" freedomev@...


           All things considered, I would rule out the idea of an inexperienced
        owner-builder using spray foam to fill panels. There are just too many
        uncertainties, like the expansion. Just one puffy panel would blow any
        potential advantage. Amateur owner-builders have enough new skills
        to master, without taking on the development of a complicated new
        building system. Stacking and gluing sheet foam and OSB/plywood
        is simple and should yield dependable results. I own a motor home,
        built by Winnebago, that has had its metal/foam laminated panels
        become delaminated. The motorhome industry has had a huge run
        of law suits, because of their laminated panels (various materials)
        becoming unlaminated.  I think it would be unwise for an amateur
        owner-builder to risk venturing into metal/foam laminated panels.
        However, basic foam/OSB or plywood SIPs are a well proven
        system that does not have delamination problems (due to the
        rigidity of the sheathing) and can be easily produced, by simply
        stacking, gluing, and weighting.

        < http://www.touch-n-seal.com/assets/pdf/two_comp_Foam_Specs.pdf>

        > Just a 3/4'' ply on each side as a buck with bolts going though
        > windows, etc to keep the wall from expanding until the foam cures.

        Most SIPS seem to use something like 7/16" OSB. Framing around
        the doors and windows with wood, would probably be a good idea,
        too.  As well as stiffening the walls, it would solidly anchor the doors
        and windows to the walls. With foam sheets, simply glue up the walls
        (in stacks) then cut out the openings after.

        > You can join especially metal SIPs with various adhesive tapes,
        > glues with overlapping edges or a metal/etc strip over them.

        Tape can be a good way to seal air leaks at OSB SIP joints.
        \But, it is not a substantial structural connector between SIPs.
        Longevity, without a lot of maintenance is an important issue
        for houses, regardless of how big they are.

        -Laren Corie-
        Natural Solar Building Design and
        Solar Heating/Natural Cooling/Energy
        Efficiency Consultation Since 1975
        www.ThermalAttic.com  (many new
        photos and pages, coming soon)

        Read my Solar house design articles in:
        -Energy Self-Sufficiency Newsletter-
        www.essnmag.com

        Home base-LittleHouses YahooGroup
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleHouses/

        Founder-WoodGas - Power from wood
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WoodGas

        Founder-RefrigeratorAlternatives YahooGroup
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RefrigeratorAlternatives



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